Here Are the Muslim Feminist Voices, Mr. Rushdie!

Ref saminashah #: 19

[If we agree that it is imperative that women writers be given the space and respect they deserve, how is it that certain interactors on Chowk who accumulate several nicknames are permitted to post obscene and harrassing messages aimed at women who interact on Chowk?]

You wouldn`t be referring to the Headshrinker whose usual appellation for some people is M-fer, would you?

(Note to Editors: I know it is Ramzan and you shouldn`t say these bad words but, what the heck, if the brain-dead psycho can say it, I can repeat it.]

Hamid,

Thanks for the correction...I had originally known that she was of Pakistani descent (Meatless Days), but got mired in some of her postcolonial theory-which is almost unsurmountably brilliant...particularly an essay in which she writes about how the diversity of the subcontinent defied British categorization and how English textual attempts at photographing, identifying, and studying various South Asian communities in efforts to ``know`` them, ultimately broke down. Still refer to her work in my studies.

Chowkies

Again, we are offered and expected to accept the most craven of justifications of why a specific interactor cannot refrain from cursing at or using sexually harrassing language when reacting to posts written by women.Apparently we must all suffer his nonsense, because this interactor cannot handle diversity of opinion, expression, or choice especially when from women. This is all very pathetic, but why is this our problem? Why is it that other Chowkies cannot have conversations without being the recipients of extremely insulting messages, because HE cannot handle Hindus,progressives, Muslims, Christians and all women?

I guess some of us like to see him embarrass himself at any cost.

Reply #: 35 sigalph235

[``Here is a quote from the same BBC where you found the Hindu exodus,(the BBC that you hold as gospel)``]

[``I am just quickly mentioning this to show the other readers your one-man, hate-filled, innuendo-laced campaign against Bangladesh.``]

Denial seems to be a common South Asian trait. Sigalph235, why don`t you cash the newly acquired ``Friedman certificate`` (instead of BBC clips) when someone points to religious cleansing in Bangladesh?

[If you don`t like the Islamisation of Pakistan, the manly thing would be to try to correct that, not claim that `others` are like Pakistan too.]

What has Pakistan got to do with this situation you pathetic liar? Did Pakistanis elect Khalida Zia to power? Are Pakistanis knocking on the doors of Bangladeshi Hindus? Are Pakistanis grabbing the Hindu property in Bangladesh? Is Pakistani police supporting the BNP murderers?

[Which is why we kicked Pakistanis out cold thirty years ago.]

And the world should be indebted till eternity and look the other way while you greedy jackals grab your neighbors` homes.

Ref hamzad afaqui #: 37

I have been meaning to write to you but was distracted temporarily by Thanksgiving... I was giving thanks that I am not a woman trapped in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen or any number of those other paradises on earth for the holy warriors.

By the way, I am really moved by all that stuff about religious freedom for Muslims in China that you have been posting on the other board. I am wondering if you would be willing to share with me some of the stuff you have been smoking. It seems to be some really powerful stuff and I am sure I haven`t seen anythig this good in a long long time.

hamzad #37

quote from someone who converted from Judaism to Islam

-----

Since the Holy Qur`an is divine revelation, it cannot and will never be changed. Because it is perfect, it cannot be improved, revised or reformed. Since Muhammad, upon whom be peace, is the final Prophet, his guidance can never be superseded by any other. The Qur`an and Sunnah are addressed to all peoples, in every country of the West as well as the East. Since it is relevant for all times, in all places, it can never become obsolete or out-of-date.

-----

The above illustrates starkly why there is no such thing as moderate Islam. ``We are the best. Our belief system is perfect. It is not variable. It is context independent. The Other is flawed.``. From this stance to religious ethnocentrism is a short step and a few hops, steps, and jumps lands one firmly in Taleban/OBL territory. The quote also shows quite clearly that the fanaticism of the freshly converted (to any belief system) exceeds those of the born faithful. Clearly if one can justify action based on some Koranic verse it is impossible to argue against it. And from what one has read it is possible to find verses extolling violence against the infidel etc.; so these can be used conveniently to justify acts of terror.

Even though one might put an innocuous spin my reading is that this belief system accounts very precisely why followers of islam tend to see themselves in very exclusionist terms, no matter where they happen to live in the world. Given such a world view, one better suited for Medieval Arabia, it is not surprising that numerous ``terrorist`` groups and separatist movements are associated with followers of Islam. It also explains why even deviations from the ``true`` Islam are excommunicated and even actively persecuted (Bahaais, Ahmeddiyas).

Many muslims (rightly) complain about their stereotyping as terrorists as P(terrorist|muslim) is vanishingly small. But to see where the stereotyping comes from examine P(Muslim| terrorist) or P(Muslim|terror group) or P(Muslim|separatist group); all three are alarmingly high and accounts for the stereotyping and consequent inflation (unjustified as it may be) of P(terrorist|muslim).

I am not for one moment suggesting that parallel views do/did not exist among adherents of Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism or Hinduism. But these views tend to be non-mainstream and do not define the world view of the typical adherent. From my observations the majority of Jews, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists do not place great weight on their religious identity (in most cases, ethnic, cultural, professional or national identity tends to be as or even more important).

It appears that the Islamic world still awaits its reformation movement (which happened so many centuries ago for christianity and in the nineteenth century in Hinduism). Until then the voices of the moderates (be they men or women) will continue to be marginalized (except in places like Chowk). Such a reformation could happen in this century but it presupposes a huge increase in literacy and education amongst the followers of Islam and the emergence of leaders (both political and intellectual) who can reconstruct Islam.

regards

warpster

re: saminashah

``Again, we are offered and expected to accept the most craven of justifications of why a specific interactor cannot refrain from cursing at or using sexually harrassing language when reacting to posts written by women.Apparently we must all suffer his nonsense, because this interactor cannot handle diversity of opinion, expression, or choice especially when from women. This is all very pathetic, but why is this our problem? Why is it that other Chowkies cannot have conversations without being the recipients of extremely insulting messages, because HE cannot handle Hindus,progressives, Muslims, Christians and all women?``

the more you respond, the more you provoke the retard...why not try ignoring him?

Chronology According To Hindu Fundamentalists

Chronology According To Hindu Fundamentalists

by (c) Ramesh Mahadevan on November 24, 2001 at 4:27:49 AM

Warning: This post is intended to be a satire.

March, 3452 BC: Shri Ram is born in Ayodhya, at the very spot where a mosque would be built later to cause much controversy.

Circa 3000 BC: Several fools start writing vedas and upanishads and try to give a philosophical basis to the Hindu religion. These morons should have realized that when eventually Hinduism becomes an organized religion and a social institution, it has a force of its own and very few would care for such philosophical basis.

Circa 2920 BC: A very learned Guru gets frustrated while teaching a moron of a student and invents zero while grading his test.

A few years later: Hindu scientists formulate the General Theory of Relativity and the Unified Field Theory. Much of these theories are hidden in complex sanskrit slokas and a good part of it was smuggled out of the country by the Germans and the British and lost forever.

0 AD: Christianity, an offshoot of Hinduism, is born.

N + 1000 BC to N BC: A hindu golden age, known as Ramrajya, is established over the entire subcontinent. There are temples everywhere. Everyone observes the caste protocols. The cows are happy. Ghee is available in plenty. All computer programs work without any problems.

Breakaway cults: Some non-conformists form cults called Jainism and Buddhism. Rational people put these iconoclasts to shame, so much so, the Buddhists are driven out of India. Understandably many Jain and Buddhist literature and culture had to be destroyed by peaceloving Hindus.

Chandragupta Vikramaditya`s period: Another great `Golden Age` according to most historians. Manusmriti was the law of the land and women were rightfully treated as `untouchables`. In his next birth, Vikramaditya Chaudhuri joins Oracle Systems and writes on SCI.

Sometime before 10 th century: Islam, another offshoot of Hinduism is born.

The only known episode of hindu atrocity: A Jain was slapped in the wrist by a Hindu in Nalanda University when they were fighting over a girl. The Jain later apologized to the Hindu for provoking him.

Babar`s rule: Enormous atrocities are heaped on peace loving Hindus. Even granting that war and stuff like that generally make people irrational, Babar went too far and to top it, he demolished Ram Mandir at the Jhanmabhoomi to make it the pinnacle of his career. He also left about fifteen hundred pieces of irrefutable evidence about his act of demolishing the temple.

Akbar`s rule: Commits Hindu atrocity by marrying a Hindu woman and by formulating his own brand of religion called `Teen Elahi`. Secret service agents suddenly discover that Akbar had failed to renew his visa and that he is actually a citizen of China - he retained his Chinese citizenship because of his Chengiz Khan lineage. The Muslims impose their inferior culture on the hapless Hindu citizens. And a thousand years later they won`t even apologize to the Hindus for what their ancestors did many hundred years ago.

Sometime during the Moghul period: Some Hindus start calling themselves Sikhs.

Discovery of Krishna Jhanmabhoomi and other bhoomis : Krishna Jhanmabhoomi was discovered - to be at the exact same spot as the present day Taj Mahal. Shiv Jhanmabhoomi is discovered to be the same as Jamma Masjid and so forth. Hindus rightfully fight for these temples.

1947-48: A fool of a hindu-basher, Mahatma Gandhi, actually organizes fasts to promote amity between the Hindus and Muslims, instead of asking all the Muslims to pack up and go to Pakistan.

Modern India: Muslims start countless, unprovoked riots in India and every time many, many more innocent Hindus die than Muslims. This is despite the Muslims becoming so dominant in every aspect of the society such as in education, civil services and politics - all these gains obtained by systematic exploitation of passive and nice Hindus and the special treatment given to the minorities in general. Hindus sacrifice a lot to the point of self-destruction.

1958: Rekha, a Hindu goddess of love is born.

RSS and VHP emerge as major schools of human thought: Guru Golmalkar emerges as one of the greatest stinkers, I mean, thinkers of the twentieth century. A whole nation follows his footsteps and organizes his thoughts into action. In fact, the RSS philosophy completely replaces ancient outmoded philos such as the Vedas and the Upanishads as the mainstream Hindu school.

VHP grows in strength and status: Vishwa Hindu Parishad becomes a premier secular organization in India and has a number of projects for Muslims as well, including helping out one poor Muslim family in Poona. Muslims, impressed by the compassion VHP has for them, join VHP in millions and even those parochial Muslims who don`t join this secular, peaceloving institution, support it unconditionally. Only some idiots on SCI write anti-VHP stuff.

http://www.aunet.org/ramesh/ramesh15.html

Ali1, denial indeed is the South Asian trait, we wish somehow the problem goes away. When we try to do something, generally it is a full blown cancer, and nothing can restore it back, even amputation is not enough. Here at Chowk or somewhere in other website, we come, flex our muscle, us, the pot-bellied financial controllers, the doctors, the engineers, the professors, the writers, express our opinion at the middle of the night, while humanity slips away deep into darkness little by little. Just look around in our world, what do you see?

Don`t you think, there is an inherent problem with our creator?

``At Critical Crossroads,`` published in Dawn, the largest circulating English-language daily of Pakistan , Asma Jahangir, leading advocate of Human and Women’s Rights and President of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, (who has herself had to face innumerable death threats from ``Islamists`` for her courageous defense of women victims of the most hideous ``crimes of honor``), writes from a``both/and`` perspective regarding the 9/11 catastrophe, in contradistinction to Rushdie’s univocal analysis. ``

``yet they also wish to remind the world that, unfortunately, it was ``the government of the United States who supported Pakistani dictator General Zia-ul-Haq in creating thousands of religious schools from which the germs of the Taliban emerged.``

Part of the story is missing here namely everything cannot be ascribed to US policy or the Islamists. Asma Jahangir and other courageous Pakistani activists for womens` rights have also been campaigning against laws which are discriminatory toward women in real or practical terms.

Zia-ul-Haq, credited for bringing in most of these laws, has been dead 12 years now. Is it the US which has prevented the Pakistani governments from undoing these laws in these intervening 12 years? Apparently a number of reports were prepared on amendments required to ensure women are equal citizens under laws. What has prevented action from being taken on these reports?

The concerned minister in Musharraf`s government is a woman and she has said she doesnot think there is anything wrong in the current laws. Is she right ? If not, is her and her government`s action or inaction due to her personally (or the government) being Islamist?

sisters-in-deen vs. regular people

....... there were many communists who sincerely believed in the dictatorship of the proletariat and then complained when the politburo failed to provide the goulash and vodka .......

....... some sisters in deen, moon-faced apologists who believe that it is okay for their husbands to have four wives and their brothers to have twice as much cake, do not deserve our sympathy or a day in court unless they can produce four witnesses who will testify that they were raped .......

...... all this whining about not being allowed to wear lipstick sounds sick and silly when an american-liberated kuwaiti medical student with a bad habit tells mike wallace that certain ``important`` things, like voting, are best left to men ........someone might say, `` here is your lipstick, now shut up!``....

P.S. my apologies to those women who prefer being treated like regular people instead of sisters in deen ........

re: ali

``What has Pakistan got to do with this situation you pathetic liar? Did Pakistanis elect Khalida Zia to power? Are Pakistanis knocking on the doors of Bangladeshi Hindus? Are Pakistanis grabbing the Hindu property in Bangladesh? Is Pakistani police supporting the BNP murderers?``

you McBeards and McInbreeders from pakistan have been using the same arguments to blame india for everything from your dictatorships to your 2% mullah GDP growth

Molko #44,

I agree with you. I believe you misinterpreted my post. Where did I say that we need `sugarcoated` media coverage ONLY?

Saira Shah needs to be commended, yes, but we also need to pay heed to other Muslim female journalists/activists. Why focus on one person, and one documentary, and only the images of the victimization of women.

Isn`t journalism supposed to be about balance?

Dear Dr. Khan,

The world is vindicated to see that you want to again saddle the west with the ``White Man`s Burden``. ;)

Hamzad,

Churches aren`t empty in America; infact, America is one of the more religious nutty nations.

harimau #53 (aka warpster)

``For whom? For those women who accept the challenge to voice their support of the destruction of Bamiyan Buddhas at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and who then turn around and blame the US that she cannot go to her neighborhood coffehouse the day after the Sept 11 bombings because she is Pakistani?``

Excuse me? Are you on some kind of delusion-inducing drugs or something? Do you have to resort to lying to try and get to people you don`t like? that`s pretty low if you ask me.

or are you just lying to get my attention? pretty pathetic. for the record,i did not support the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas (i expressed my opinion on how living breathing people are being destroyed in Afghanistan and around the world, so why the fuss over the stone figures?).

Secondly, what`s this mention of MoMA and me going there? Can you tell me where you got this info from? And about `going to coffeehouses? What the hell is that? I don`t even go to coffeehouses dimwit.

And please quit playing that typical angry Indian game of yours, the one that labels every Pakistani who speaks against the media as anti-Semitic, and anti-Jewish.

I happen to admire Jewish people. I feel sorry for Indians like you and your twin brother for lying your way through Chowk to try and get a rise out of people.

Next time, try something different.