Here Are the Muslim Feminist Voices, Mr. Rushdie!

Welcome to CHOWK Fawzia Afzal-Khan.

I do have to say here that you beat me to this
reponse to Salman Rushdie (I had already gathered
up my research material to write an opinion
on the Rushdie`s piece in the NYT). I still may
write something but you have already touched on
some of the painful reality of where the moderates
in Islam stand.
Anyway, I enjoyed your writing here and hope that
we see a lot more of your material on CHOWK.

Ras

Dear Ms. Khan

Excellent rebuttal. It is so hard to add anything when one is in complete agreement. A very warm welcome to Chowk. I will contribute as the discussion progresses.

i was wondering whether your current project will include a look at the life and works of sheema kirmani, classical dancer and director.

shandana

dear professor afzal-khan

thank you very much for posting a critical view that takes us away from the binaries that are promoted by people like Bush, Osama and Rushdie.

thanks

As every body know Mr Rahadi is wrong. The greatest recent Living muslim(he was time magzine man of year) Imam Aytullah R. Khomeni has given judgement.Writing his nameis wrong as it make him important

Ras:

I couldn`t beat you to it here. Your `warm welcome to Chowk` was there before I could even hit the keyboard...and you have been doing it on the last four Boards, besides of course a veryyyyyy warm one to Benazir :)

PS: you can still give your version opposing Rushdie. It would be interesting to see two different counterpoints.

urstruly:

Ah, a warm welcome back!! And there are times you are in complete agreement with anyone? So, stay right here...

Dr. Fawzia Khan:

Obviously, I am more than likely to be with you on this one, though it is taking time to read. Your paragraphs are much too long and the content seems to be like a who`s who of Muslim feminism rather than the hows/whys. Anyway, I always wait in anticipation for someone to give Salman a rap. I have done it so often that now MY hands are aching. Hope you interact here...

Regards,

Farzana

[In a parenthetical aside, Mr. Rushdie sighs, ``(oh, for the voices of Muslim women to be heard!)``]

Dear Dr Khan

Many thanks for your article and the issue it raises. As you point out, there are many Muslim women who speak out against the external and internal domination of their societies by non-democratic (excuse the generalisation) forces.

Judging from the condition of many Muslim societies, however, these women do not seem to be heard and heeded by enough people (men and women) to cause perceptible improvements in these societies. It seems that some Muslim women are speaking sense, but most Muslim people are not paying them enough attention to benefit from it.

What would you say the reason for this general failure in Muslim society is?

Could it be related to the way we assign individuals worth based, at least in part, on their gender? And is this not caused, again at least in part, by our (faulty?) understanding of Islam?

Finally - apart from an individual commitment to listen to and evaluate each individual`s viewpoint on its own merits, what can we do to ensure that these women do not speak in vain? Is there anything?

Many thanks,

Zafar

PS Please note, I feel that what these women have to say is relevant to both the internal dynamics of power in a society, and also to how a society relates to external powers.

Reply Urstruly # 2

Dear Ms. Khan



Thats DOCTOR Khan toyou!!! budy

Fawzia,

A very erudite rebuttal...if there was any.

Rushdie is in the habit of a degree of cavalier disregard to details. His aside about Muslim women, is classic Rushdie. He did that earlier dismissing 20+ language literatures on India ..with a trite...``either nothing worthwhile was being written..or they have not been translated well enough.`` As if the grandiose idocy and abysmal ignorance of the first half of that sentence could be covered by the fig leaf of the later half.

I do have a question you might be qualified to answer, and I am asking you in all humility.

The kind of homogenuous globe-encompassing ``Islamist``...for the want of a better word... worldview that most sold-on-the-west find easy to attack...is not what I felt echoed in the telling examples you have quoted.

Whether Asma Jehangir, Dr. Nawal El Saadawi, or even the RAWA women...they are all dissidents within their societies/nations and essentially reacting creatively or through political activism to their own individual sitautions. They are NOT critiquing/condemning/condoning anything about the GLOBAL ORDER OR the religion of Islam. That they do take swipes at the US foregin policy is almost incidental to their primary concerns.

My question is...do you feel that these women...who are engaged in more immediate battles at homes... are as impacted by the Mid-East policy of the US...Palestine....and other such issues that is easy ammo for the ``Internationalist`` ``Islamists`` ?

Yes Sir . . . from rediff, Varsha Bhosale says . . .nevertheless, there does exist a country that has kept its 15 per cent Muslim population totally in line with the rest, believe it or not: In Singapore, there are no demands from Muslims for separate Islamic codes and other such inequities. The Government of Singapore appoints the mufti (the highest Muslim authority in the land); it vets all the Fridays sermons, which are required to be submitted to the authorities in advance; it monitors the sermons to ensure that there is no deviation from the approved text; and it steps in with the secular law of the land if the Muslim authorities do not police themselves . . .

+++

If there is one thing India and Pakistan agree on it is the apparent desire to be ``like Singapore``.

Right?

Dr Afzal-Khan:

You have engaged Rushdie very well, by pointing out that Muslim women have indeed spoken out against obscurantist versions of Islam-as-it-is-practised. Nevertheless, you have also vindicated Rushdie. You could mention only 4 women and one female organization who have taken on obscurantism.

The so-called male Islamists speak out with a tremendously louder volume: a few killings every week in the name of religion, routine bombings of civilian areas, over-powering of a country (Afghanistan), intensive suppression of religious equality in entire countries (Saudi Arabia, for instance), and now, ramming civilian aircraft into civilian structures.

Insha`allah, the voices of the brave Muslim women against obscurantism will rise to a level when they would begin to be heard against the roar of the male Islamists.

Dear Dr. Afzul-Khan,

Thank you for your article. It seems that women in progressive movements in the East and West, particularly in NGOs, or grassroots movements, are indeed ``marginalized`` by the various apparatuses of rigid religious and governmental institutions. The voices of groups like RAWA, of WAF(and its co-groups)are precisely the ones that should be utilized and never are in an integrated approach to policy making. What is the role of the NGO when it comes to informing domestic and international policy, in the US and in the international community? How do we work to give it the weight it deserves? How can various NGOs link on specific platforms?

As your piece correctly pointed out, the complexity of viewpoint and analysis of these voices makes packaging and appropriating them difficult (although I`d argue that our US govt. has come close in justifying their actions in Afghanistan in citing the collective and ``sudden`` realization of the oppression of Afghani women) and that to a greater extent these women and women groups resist attempts as such. Again, as you pointed out, they/we fight a war on two fronts; the assault of questionable international policy and the assault of extremely questionable domestic policy viz women, minorities and class.

In regards to Salman Rushdie; I am somewhat surprised to read that he is unaware of Muslim/South Asian/Arab/Asian/African women writers, or is participating in this exercise of marginalization. Could this be linked to his historically lukewarm engagement with this issue? It would be unwise to grant him or any other South Asian writer the agency to be representative of all writers, and his championing within the Western media/world of academia appears to be a somewhat different issue.

I am glad to hear that Dr. El-Saadaawi is teaching in the tri-state area. When I last had the opportunity to meet with her it was in conjunction to presenting the US bombing on Iraq through legal channels within the UN. Dr. El- Saadaawi is indeed, one of the many extraordinary women doing extraordinary work. Many of my friends had read her books and essays in our undergraduate years; they were indispensible to our politicization. Perhaps our mission now is to support the women who work within these fields wholeheartedly, by buying their work, and in demanding/sponsoring/organizing community events and venues that give women the space and safety to speak, create and work. In addition, there are many women esp., South Asian women who work with various communities in the legal sphere, particularly in protecting the rights of individuals who may not have such easy access to them. I think they are also an extremely important element in our self actualization. representation and determination and should be given much greater visibility.

I can speak to some grasroots organizations in NYC who embody work within the dichotomies that you describe. One is SAPTF, the South Asian Progressive Task Force. Their interrogations of many of the issues emerging within mainstream media, academia and the immigrant South Asian and Arab communities in NYC is startling and rigorous.

Once again, it was heartening to read your article. I will be looking for your academic work shortly! Thank you and welcome to Chowk!

regards

``The world should listen to these voices, the female voices allied with the ``secularist-humanist principles`` Rushdie seems to think don’t exist in the Islamic world.``

hogwash...these principles don`t exist in most of the Islamic world outside of India...where they do, they are an irrelevant grain of sand on a beach...

...why don`t you direct your wrath at the real culprits rather than at Mr. Rushdie, who is simply the messenger?

Talibanisation of Bangladesh

Bangladesh considered a secular country for all Bengalis Hindus and Muslim alike is slowly falling in the grips of Islamists. With Khaleda Zia and Jamaat parties in power who want to drive Hindus out of Bangladesh and make Bangladesh a pure Islamic country. Hindus are 14% of the Bangladesh population.

Bangladesh Hindus `will not go back`

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1670000/1670410.stm



Refugees face an uncertain future in India

By Moazzem Hossain in West Bengal

Hundreds of Bangladeshi Hindu families who have crossed the border into India to escape repression at home are refusing to return to their country.

They are now living with their relatives and friends in the border districts of West Bengal and intend to stay there permanently.

In the frontier town of Bongaon in West Bengal, I found several Bangladeshi Hindu families who fled following last month`s general elections.

The rise of Islamists worries minorities



To escape any possible move by the Indian authorities to send them back, these families were apparently hiding in a village near the Thakurnagar railway station.

All these families have horrific stories to tell.

Dipali Adhikari, who did not give out her real name for fear of reprisals against relatives in Bangladesh, related how she and seven other members of her family had managed to cross the border.

Horrific tales

Several days after the election, a group of armed men entered their house of and looted everything they had.

They poisoned the family`s fish pond, the main source of their income.

Then they turned to Dipali pointing a knife at her.

``They demanded 100,000 Taka [$1,770] as the fee if we wanted to live in that village,`` she said.

``Otherwise, they threatened me, we had to leave the country``.

Some families have broken up



``It was not just me, other Hindu families in our village too were subjected to similar torture.``

``We also heard stories of Hindu women being raped and murdered by armed hoodlums in neighbouring villages`` Dipali said.

After this incident, Dipali`s family decided to migrate to India.

They contacted a man in the border area who arranged their safe passage to India in exchange of money.

We ran through jungles and over ditches the whole night and didn`t stop until we crossed the border



Mita Rani

Dipali left behind her old parents to look after their ancestral home.

Mita Rani Roy was not so lucky.

I met Mita in a village in Malda, in northern West Bengal.

Mita Rani fled her home carrying her one-year old baby with a group of Hindu families when their village came under attack at midnight.

``We ran through jungles and over ditches the whole night and didn`t stop until we crossed the border``, Mita said.

Her husband Anil Chandra Roy was not at home the day Mita fled the country.

``I have lost contact with my husband since then.``

Refugee children don`t know what to expect



``I don`t know if he knows that we are in India.``

Neither Dipali nor Mita Rani wants to return to Bangladesh after their horrifying experience since the government of Prime Minister Khaleda Zia came to power in Bangladesh.

Political divisions

In Bangladesh, Hindus are generally perceived as supporters of the Awami League party of former Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina.

Hindus believe the League holds secular ideals.

Shiekh Hasina`s party experienced a humiliating defeat in the elections and she accused her opponents of rigging the polls and intimidating minority voters.

Since the elections, many reports of widespread violence against the Hindu community and destruction of their property have appeared in the Bangladeshi press.

Back in Bangladesh, I visited Dipali`s village in the southern Bagerhat district, where her parents are among the few remaining inhabitants.

Border guards told to stop migrants



The Hindu-majority village looked deserted.

Dipali`s father Ganesh Boiragi told me nearly half of the 250 families in the village had left for unknown destination.

Mr Boiragi said he also intended to leave the country as Hindus were no longer safe in that area.

There are confusing reports of the number of Hindus who have left Bangladesh since the elections.

Bangladesh Refugee Welfare Council, a Calcutta- based group representing Bangladeshi Hindu immigrants in India, claims nearly 100,000 people entered India over the last month-and-a-half.

The Council`s Secretary, Bimal Majumdar, says many Bangaldeshi Hindus conceal their identity fearing deportation.

However, West Bengal`s Left Front government has dismissed the figures as highly exaggerated.

The Front`s Chairman, Biman Bose, says the recent migration of Bangladeshi Hindus to India has not reached that alarming level.

``But whatever is the case, we have requested the government to take up the issue with Bangladesh to ensure the safety and security for minority Hindus in their country, Mr Bose told the BBC.

Refugees want to stay in India



The Bangladeshi Government consistently denies any case of Hindu migration to India.

A government inquiry has found most media reports of alleged repression of Hindus as exaggerated.

A senior Bangladeshi minister, Abdul Mannan Bhuiyan, says there was very little truth in what the media have been reporting on the issue.

``In only a few cases have we found instances of repression of minority Hindus.``

``In those cases we are taking action against officials who failed to protect the lives of the minorities.``

But civil rights groups are unhappy with the way the government is dealing with the issue.

Ain O Salish Kendro, a human rights organisation in Dhaka, has filed a petition in the High Court asking for an independent inquiry of the alleged repression of Hindus.

Chowkies,

Just a post script.

Dr. Afzal-Khan writes that women esp. in the Muslim world have been writing on the two fronts they live in. If we agree that it is imperative that women writers be given the space and respect they deserve, how is it that certain interactors on Chowk who accumulate several nicknames are permitted to post obscene and harrassing messages aimed at women who interact on Chowk? How can we demand that the words, opinions and ideas of women who are interrogating the issues of their lives individually and collectively be respected and safeguarded, when women are continually targetted for invective or online sexual harrassment by an interactor who is unable to read a diversity of viewpoints esp. penned by women of all faiths? Does it say something when this interactor has identified himself as a ``muslim`` and that his purported ``faith`` gives him license to spew his harrassing posts on every Chowk board?

regards

So where did women fail? Why were their voices not heard, even though they were screaming injustices? The answer is quite simple. It was because of the failure of the international media to air the opinions of the women who were and are speaking out. The international media is too busy portraying women as victims instead of activists.

We need to lobby for more positive media coverage.

Why is ``Behind the Veil`` aired again and again on CNN? Where are the voices of RAWA and other Muslim female activists? Why are Benazir Bhutto and Maleeha Lodhi being interviewed on Larry King Live for their ideas on politics only? Why is Asma Jehangir non-existent to the western media?

Did you send this to the NY Times? And if so, did it get published?

Dr. Khan,

While I have not read Rushdie`s article, nor plan to, since I found the man to be a bore after reading a few pages of the book that made him famous, the Satanic Verses. However, I think with respect to the growth of Islamists in Egypt (the Egyptian Islamic Brotherhood), it was initiated neither by US policies (as you, and much of conventional wisdom, say) nor by Islamic teachings (as Rushdie says). The historical fact is that the movement started in the early 1950`s by a man named Bana (who was himself influenced in part by Maudoodi`s rubbish). Bana became radicalized after he was (and here is the fact that few people seem to remember) imprisoned by Gemal Abdel Nasser. And Nasser was hardly pro-US. In fact he was the archetypal ``third world leaders`` who came to power in the post-colonial era on an anti-west platform.

Closer home, in Pakistan, the mullahs have been trying to come to power as an alternative to the failed middle class politicians (BB and NS).

It is easy to blame the west and US policies. It is the egotistical and corrupt third world leadership that lies at the root of the Islamist problem.

And that leadership emerges from the characterless third world middle class which has not taken it`s responsibilities to the millions of poor around them, nor to the cause of peace around the world, seriously. As a result, the burden of making this world a more civilized place is very much on western societies today, and this is a fact that educated people in the third world have to date been generally in denial about.

This is counter to conventional wisdom among third world intellectuals, but I hope you will give it some consideration.

Dear Dr. Khan:

Thank you for the response to Mr. Rushdie. All persons of conscience, whether Muslims or not find Obscuritanism the determined foe of reason. Obscuritanism is but another religion of political power. Unfortunately, such straightforward responses do not address Mr. Rushdie`s concerns. His agenda is to expose Islam to a far deeper, more malignant threat.

Mr. Rushdie is a late comer to this conversation and his agenda is first and foremost the infusion of ``profanation`` within Islam and the cultures of Muslim communities, in the sense Daniel Bell in his ``The Return of the Sacred?: The Arguments on the Future of Religion`` develops the concept.

Any discussion or response to Mr. Rushdie that does not characterize ``Modern`` as the aggrandizement of the unrestrained self, indeed rebellion against restraint itself and the angry acknowledgment, affirmation, of nothingness, will fail to satisfy his concern. His mission is to “temper” the morals and sensibilities of Muslims; his tools, the expressive arts. While Muslim scholars and lay persons seek to develop and apply the rules of interpretation, Mr. Rushdie brings to the subject sensibilities in the tradition of G. E. Lessing, Rousseau, de Sade, Laclos, Dostoevski, Gide, Nietzsche, Marx, Hegel , Foucault, Laing and Brown. Seeking God or is it to be, God like, as they embrace the devil.

Suggestions that Mr. Rushdie`s work is a call for the differentiation of institutions of religion and governance overlook the fact that his work in essence, calls for the separation of religion, specifically Islam, from culture and conscience. Such notions deserve examination by all Muslims. Are we as well, to be tempted with cultural exhaustion? Even as we seek to safe guard a cultural space from the Obscuritanist and the proponents of the self and impulse? Will reason prevail? Or are we to be left asking whether reason should prevail?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re: saminashah

``It would be unwise to grant him or any other South Asian writer the agency to be representative of all writers, and his championing within the Western media/world of academia appears to be a somewhat different issue.``

..who is granting whom agency to be a representative of South Asian writers?...writing is not a collective exercise...until someone can outdo the Rushdies and Naipauls, they will continue to have this agency by default...the onus to dethrone them is squarely on those who oppose them vehmently...

This is not a criticism at the article but at some of the interacts. Those of you who are quick to defend women and women especially as reformists within islam cannot be honest in their defense if you don`t give the benefit of the doubt to other groups. You cannot stereotype others while you protest others stereotyping you. You know who you are.

re: veeresh

{If there is one thing India and Pakistan agree on it is the apparent desire to be ``like Singapore``.}

i don`t think so...india should emulate Singapore`s economic policies but certainly not its medieval policies on personal liberty and freedom...

It is the introduction about the writer which gives a better insight into her mind.

1)If someone has studied literature then please understand it has no meaning whatsoever.If it was a doctorate in the english language then at least one can gloat a little.

2)Doctorates are demeaning these days.especially when Pakis make it a part of their name themselves,like Col. Gen.(retd)....believing that it is respectable to be noticed as such.

3)No one with half the brain calls himself/herself professor.Teacher yes but professor?Only those who use pigeons for fortune-telling call themselves professors .Like /intellectual & /intelligentsia it is not a very flattering term.

4)Such long-distance & remote-cooked solutions with words like /feminism are the social versions of IMF & World Bank---run by illiterates & ignorants about the recipient nations.Those who are truly learned & educated return home put roots and walk talk & behave like those being helped(Sattar Edhi--anyone?)or Case in point:The barefoot bankers of Bangladesh or the brave woman who in India who sent the World Bank illiterates packing(Sardar Srowar Narbada Dam).

5)To identify with Muslim woman one should acquire madrassa education at least to the primary level so as to gain a little credibility & respect when talking to the local imaam.

6)Must be seen as a walking talking practising muslim & try not to mould those being helped into an alien-infected image.

7)Go for advanced education to India,Bangladeh,Malaysia,Iran,China rather than to those where the families are fragmenting and are getting psychologically impaired.

8)Learn to write such stuff in urdu for Urdu magazine & newspapers and guage the response.It is then that one can test ones own knowledge properly.



In short the Somnaths & Bamiyaans of alien-hatched solutions MUST be brought crashing down.

Otherwise it is just a feeble attempt to convince rural-relatives back home that ``I too have `evolved`---just notice my `accent` & my disdain for my ancestoral culture``.

__________________________________________________

The tone is deliberatley provocative and is expressly adopted to counter the smug & innane `values` which have taken a strangle-hold on the Pakistani Society.

Counter-provocative replies welcome!

RE: Reply #: veeresh

``Yes Sir . . . from rediff, Varsha Bhosale says . . .nevertheless, there does exist a country that has kept its 15 per cent Muslim population totally in line with the rest, believe it or not: In Singapore, there are no demands from Muslims for separate Islamic codes and other such inequities. The Government of Singapore appoints the mufti (the highest Muslim authority in the land); it vets all the Fridays sermons, which are required to be submitted to the authorities in advance; it monitors the sermons to ensure that there is no deviation from the approved text; and it steps in with the secular law of the land if the Muslim authorities do not police themselves . . .

+++

If there is one thing India and Pakistan agree on it is the apparent desire to be ``like Singapore``.

Right? ``

God, I hope at least India does NOT become like Singapore. One smile on the face of a village child in India is more precious to me than all the dour contented faces that I see when I am in Singapore.

India does not need a National Spontanaeity Day for it`s citizens to turn on their charms.

Perhaps we can get an informal list of women writers in the Muslim world together;

three I`d suggest: Assia Djebar (Algeria), Taslima Nasreen (Bangladesh), the brilliant Sara Suleiri (India-Wales)

Dear Dr. Khan ,

You have made your point well but do you really think we should give explanation to the likes of

Rushdie . Controversies are oxygen for him . Just ignore him he will die a natural death .

Regards

Afaqui # 25

I think it is time that we should start giving each other the benefit of doubt. The idea that the one must produce a perfect thesis to be considered as intellectually sane and honest is futile. And it is also counter-productive to the evolution of the thought process. I think hobbyty has adopted a better approach.

#: 7

BijIi

Kafir Kafir Shiya is Kafir



Neptune,ppl.like you are Nathuram Godse ,Sarvarkar ,Thakeraey & Advani .Divisive like blade of knofe carving thanks giving turkey .

If you dont believe this is imposter post .I recant & condemn this post !!!!!

Neptune is doing this.NOT MY POST

saminashah #27

correction - sara suleri is not india-wales but pakistan-wales ...yale via presentation convent, pindi and kinnaird college, lahore ..... z.a. suleri`s daughter - editor of dawn and pakistan times .......

Rsax

To a greater extent I agree with you on Rushdie and Naipaul, (but particularly Rushdie) in that we need to get over it...he`s proved himself to be a writer worthy enough to have a fatwa placed on him-or good enough to draw oohhs and aahhhs from many readers internationally and enough of a creative malcontent to be used as a pawn/symbol in the ``good/bad`` worlds of the mullahs mullahwannabes. Whether anyone likes it or not, he`s here, he`s written some great books (of which we can reasonably expect more), he`s paid his due for being a dissenting artist, and he has provided a intellectual/artistic legacy for the postcolonial literature student...more than any of us can claim...so perhaps some of us ought keep that in mind before reach for the keyboard.

Yes, its up to those who accuse Rushdie and Naipaul to start publishing those amazing works they`ve got hidden under their beds...I, for one, am waiting for a novel from some very specific naysayers....will it come-probably not.

Mr. Hamzad Afaqi

I think your post tends to be a bit overgeneralizing and short sighted. Do we really need a cultural revolution in the Muslim world? You do know the answer is ``no``, right?

re mohajir 16

Here is a quote from the same BBC where you found the Hindu exodus,(the BBC that you hold as gospel):

``However, West Bengal`s Left Front government has dismissed the figures as highly exaggerated.

The Front`s Chairman, Biman Bose, says the recent migration of Bangladeshi Hindus to India has not reached that alarming level.``

I am just quickly mentioning this to show the other readers your one-man, hate-filled, innuendo-laced campaign against Bangladesh. If you don`t like the Islamisation of Pakistan, the manly thing would be to try to correct that, not claim that `others` are like Pakistan too. Because Bangladesh is not like Pakistan. Which is why we kicked Pakistanis out cold thirty years ago.

NOT RELEVANT TO THE THREAD,EXCUSE ME,BUT INTERESTING,MR.Naipaul,Rushdie,& Freidman(WITH whole Bernard to Emerson writer bullies)

Assalam alaikum,

- Muslim Leaders Salute Will Smith -

Muslim leaders across America are saluting `Will Smith` [The Fresh

Prince] for embracing their religion after completing the Muhammad

Ali biopic. Smith was introduced to the religion while learning about

the legendary boxer`s life - Islam is Ali`s religion of choice.

Friends close to Smith claim the megastar is now embracing the

religion in his own life and is eager to learn more about it.

About conversion: http://us.imdb.com/WN?20011109#9

About his tv/music/movie career: http://us.imdb.com/Name?Smith,+Will

May Allah have mercy and continue to guide us all, ameen.

Maybe this helps to understand ---another womans` point of view.

AN OPEN LETTER TO HER PARENTS

By Maryam Jameelah

[Maryam Jameelah, a well-known convert from Judaism to Islam wrote an open letter to her parents.]----observes purdah,married to a maulana.belonged to a rich elite jewish clan.

Dear Mother and Father,

I have now been living in Pakistan for more than twenty years during which time you have acquired an entire additional family of loved-ones there, adding much to your happiness. You have reached a ripe age, thank God, living longer in good health than I had ever expected. You have read all my books and Islamic literature I have sent you with a broad and open mind. Therefore you need no introduction to the subject I wish to discuss with you now and nothing I have to say will seem strange and new to you.

I wonder if you realize fully how very fortunate you are. So long as you can keep in reasonable health and are able to take care of yourselves, you can continue to enjoy a pleasant life. But do you ever think of the tragic faith of those hundreds of thousands of other older Americans, the victims of chronic illness and infirmities, who crowd to over-flowing hospitals and nursing homes (which are really charnel houses), the old-age homes and the senile wards of mental institutions? And do you ever think of those still greater numbers of older people who are widowed and live their lonely lives confined to their dingy rooms in constant fear of muggings, physical attacks and robberies by juvenile delinquents who prey on the old and infirm with no remorse or fear of punishment? The maltreatment of older people is a direct result of the collapse of the home and extended family. Does your elder sister - my aunt Rosalyn, a great-grandmother lovingly sheltered in a close and adoring family and a happy home, ever think how lucky she is and how few of her advanced age in America are left like her?

You must know that society in which you were brought up and have lived all your life is in a state of rapid disintegration on the brink of collapse. Actually the decline in our civilization was evident as far back as World War I but at that time few people except some intellectuals and artists were aware of what was happening. But since the end of World War II and especially during the last two decades, the rot has reached such a stage of advanced decay that nobody can any longer ignore it.

The moral anarchy in the absence of any respected, fixed standards of behavior and conduct, the obsession with perverted sex over the entertainment media, the mistreatment of older people, the divorce rate which has climbed so high that among the new generation, an enduring, happy marriage is becoming rare, child abuse, the destruction of the natural environment, the prodigious waste of scarce and valuable resources, the epidemic of veneral diseases and mental disorders, drug addiction, alcoholism, suicides as leading cause of death, crime, vandalism, corruption in the government and contempt for the law in general - all of this has a cause.

The cause of this is the failure of secularism and materialism and the absence of absolute, transcendental theological and moral values. Deed does in the final analysis depend upon creed because if the intention is wrong, the work always suffers.

No doubt that it may bore you to read this. You will protest that if you are not theologians, philosophers or sociologists, then why bother about such ``deep`` matters when they do not seem to be of any direct concern to you? After all, you are happy and content living just as you are. You only wish to enjoy life right now, live entirely in the present and accept each day as it comes. If life is a journey, is it not foolhardy only to be concerned with pleasant and comfortable accommodations along the way and never to think about the journey`s end? Why were we born? What is the meaning and purpose of life, why must we die and what will happen to each of us after death?

Father you have told me more than once that you cannot accept any traditional religion because you are convinced that theology conflicts with modern science. Science and technology have indeed given us much information about the physical world, provided us with abundant comforts and conveniences, increased efficiency and discovered remedies for many diseases that used to be fatal. But science does not and cannot tell us about the meaning of life and death. Science tells us ``how`` but it never answers the question ``why``?. Can science ever tell us what is right and what is wrong? What is good and what is evil? What is beautiful and what is ugly? And to whom are we accountable for what we do? Religion does.

Today America is in many ways a repetition of ancient Rome in the terminal stages of her decline and fall. Thinking people know that secularism has failed to be a sound foundation of our social order. They are anxiously searching in other directions for a solution to the crisis but do not know yet where to find it. This is not of concern only to a few sociologists. The disease of national disintegration directly affects you and me and each one of us.

During its most critical period, ancient Rome adopted Christianity as its salvation and henceforth the Church dominated Europe for more than a thousand years. This put an end to many of the worst social and moral evils of decadent Rome and greatly raised the moral and spiritual standards of the people. Unfortunately during the formative period of its history, the Church compromised with paganism and secularism, adopting an elaborate priesthood and incomprehensive theology which could not resist the impact of the renaissance, the revival of the natural sciences and the radical secularism of the French Revolution. While Christians in Europe and America have deserted their faith wholesale leaving the churches almost empty, the missionaries continue to represent the vanguard of western imperialism and exploitation in Asia and Africa.

After Christianity, the Jews comprise the second largest religious group in America who dominate politically, and economically, as well exercising considerable control over the media. But Judaism has always been parochial and tribal, seldom welcoming converts. It is not and has never been a universal faith. The Zionist movement which resulted in the establishment of the state of Israel, is the secular expression of Jewish nationalism and tribalism. The dreadful atrocities committed by the Israelis in occupied Palestine, the unprovoked aggression in Lebanon and adjacent areas and attempted genocide of the Palestine Arabs, depriving them of all human and political rights, is the logical result of this same narrow parochial outlook. This is the reason why even the most orthodox of the rabbis refuse to believe that Israel can do any wrong and uncritically support everything she does. These glaring moral and spiritual defects automatically disqualify Judaism as the faith of the future.

The Muslims comprise the third and fastest growing faith in America today. No longer is Islam confined to remote regions of the deserts and jungles of Asia and Africa. No longer is Islam foreign to the American scene. There are more than three million Muslims in America today and their numbers are increasing fast. There are thousands of students from all Muslim countries studying in American universities, and well-educated, highly-trained Muslims are busily at work in all professions. In the last two decades, hundreds of native-born American converts have swelled their ranks. At first most of the converts were black people who found in Islam, dignity, honor, self-respect and racial brotherhood as did Malcolm-X, but in recent years more and more white converts of European origin, searching for guidance in all the affairs of their formally chaotic lives, have also embraced Islam, making many sacrifices and enduring much hardships to do so. Few of them are fortunate as I am to have loving parent like you. Most of them suffer severe frictions with their non-Muslim parents and relatives. Today churches and synagogues are almost deserted but the newly-built mosques and Islamic centers, springing up in every important American city and town, are attracting rapidly growing numbers. Most of the new Muslims in America are young, intelligent and well-educated. What attracts so many young Americans to Islam?

Americans today, both young and old, are desperately searching for guidance. They know from bitter experience that the personal freedom and opportunities they as Americans enjoy are meaningless and self-destructive without reliable guidance, direction and purpose. Secularism and materialism are powerless to provide any positive or constructive moral values for Americans either individually or collectively. That is why after Christianity and Judaism have failed them, more and more people in America today are turning towards Islam. In Islam as new Muslims, they find a sane, healthy, clean and honest life. And for Muslims, everything does not come to an end at death. They look forward to an Eternity of bliss, peace and perfect happiness (in the Hereafter).

This Guidance found in the Holy Qur`an and the recorded words and deeds of the Holy Prophet Muhammad, upon whom be peace, is not only for foreign races in some far-away corner of the East, centuries ago. Here are to be found the solutions to all economic, social, moral and political problems which face us right here in the West today. Furthermore, Islam is not cold, remote and impersonal. Muslims have complete faith in a very personal God who not only created, sustains and rules the universe but also loves and deeply cares about the fate of each of us. The Holy Qur`an tells us that God is nearer to everyone of us than our jugular veins!

Since the Holy Qur`an is divine revelation, it cannot and will never be changed. Because it is perfect, it cannot be improved, revised or reformed. Since Muhammad, upon whom be peace, is the final Prophet, his guidance can never be superseded by any other. The Qur`an and Sunnah are addressed to all peoples, in every country of the West as well as the East. Since it is relevant for all times, in all places, it can never become obsolete or out-of-date.

You are both of very advanced age and there is so little time left. Yet it is not too late if you act now. If your decision is positive, your ties with your loved ones in Pakistan will not only be by blood but also in faith. You cannot only love them in this world but be all together with us forever in eternity.

If your decision is negative, I am very much afraid that your happy, comfortable and pleasant life will very shortly come to an end. As soon as the inevitable occurs, it is too late for remorse and regrets. The punishment will be terrible from which there is no refuge and no escape.

It is as your daughter who loves you and hopes to the end that you will be spared this fate. But the decision rests entirely with you. You have complete freedom to accept or reject: Your future depends upon the choice you make now.

All my love and best wishes.

Your devoted daughter,

Sd/-

(Maryam Jameelah).

(Courtesy: The Universal Message). Also see Iqra: The Islamic Journal, Nairobi, Rabi-ul-Awwal 1407, November 1986, p35-37.

Dr Khan,

MAKING OF A TRAGEDY,

It is people like you who are doing the greates disservice to the women of pakistan. Sitting in the US, you have the urge to white ash pakistan, to look respectable in the yes of your collegeues, to portray pakistan as a country trapped in the quick sandos jiahdic killins, sectarian violence and honour killing.

Instead of harping about asma jahangir you should have mentioned when a hapless girl was killed in her office, it was asma jahangir charged with taking a girl to immaoral acts. A a professor, allegedly on the side of truth should have cared to look at the trends in honour killing ststistics.

You should have cared about the popular standing of asma jahangir, which is no better than that of a ..

You article is a betrayal of pakistan, it is a betryal of your education, a betrayal of your profession, but a declaration you r heritage as a product of TNT ideology.

...i think the most relevant post here is RSaxena # 15, even if a bit impolite...the author has specified some details here but if she is trying to extrapolate the concept from it that there is significant, or even notable, feminist dissent in the muslim world..most of us know it to be untrue....rushdie may be one pompous ass (his rubbishing of regional indian literature was galling even to a fan of his like me) but the broad thrust of what he says in this case is not negated by an example here or a detail there....actually i consider the defensiveness that this response, and in a way Farzana`s several articles and hobbyty`s posts, represent actually an impediment to ridding islam of the mindset that has it ina crisis today..

...i find surprising the intensity of this defensiveness, the apologies offered for a situation that only honest and brutal introspection and correction can resolve....i have not found this in india, and i once thought that indians as a people had most of the negatives any civilization could have...surprisingly, cynicism, which indians have in plenty is definitely not a drawback of a community whose extreme elements think nothing of sacrificing their lives for the cause...which in a certain context would be considered the ultimate form of motivation and bravery....its unforgiveable tragedy that such a community today appears to compose almost entirely of fanatics or apologists, with little constructive to offer- regardless of the diplomatic things rest of the world says...

Dr. Afzal-Khan writes that women esp. in the Muslim world have been writing on the two fronts they live in. If we agree that it is imperative that women writers be given the space and respect they deserve, how is it that certain interactors on Chowk who accumulate several nicknames are permitted to post obscene and harrassing messages aimed at women who interact on Chowk? How can we demand that the words, opinions and ideas of women who are interrogating the issues of their lives individually and

You identified yourself as South Asian Female & NOT MUSLIM.



Just havin hindu nick doesnt make me Hindu neither Samina make you Muslim/

There is SAWNET south asian women net work & may i add WHY IS IT ONLY LIMITED TO WOMEN? For the same reason that Samina is freightened,scared,& hurt about.She cant take crticism .Women on this post use abusive languages like F * *Ck,B * *stard,Moron,Monkeys,D * *Ck,D * *CKweed,I dont see objecting to that ??

If you want to be EQUAL ,play in the Same field .Its not like we never gave you OPTIONS!!

My views are my views ,i have right rto express just as much as you do .

______What Should the Moderate Muslim Speak?





What Should the Moderate Muslim Speak?

Khalid Khan





The simmering voice of sanity has to always pass through an acid test of not being politically incorrect, religiously misunderstood, and often be misquoted. And above all when a person has to condemn some action or inaction of his own religious or ethnic counterpart, is almost deciding to take the bull by its horn.

There are two imminent dangers that have to be addressed before the moderates decide to react. First and foremost who are these moderate Muslims? Are these people the intrinsic liberal face of the Islamic way of life, literature, culture, art and music, which has reformed their societies and has had an impact in its share in globalization? Or are they mere formal Muslim people, who are an extended product of Lord Macaulay`s brainchild of being a rare breed of people who have an English taste for culture, literature, and system of governance which have now been replaced by an American way of life, and yet are identified religiously and ethnically as Muslims?

In the first case, the percentage of moderates is less and the media and literature have not projected them fairly. More specifically, the moderates themselves have not been articulate or taken advantage of the media and information technology. In the second case, the percentage is quite large but there is a deep sense of intellectual crisis in them. There is a sheer sense of helplessness in this camp as to how to react and on what to react?

Their interests, taste, way of life, culture, career and attitude are dominated by a totally different set of values. They are a part and parcel of our society in which modern values like democracy, secularism, freedom of thought and speech, human rights and the benefits of information technology decide our daily activities. They live with these values, are quite articulate about them, and every now and then we find our TV channels portraying them debating about these issues. In brief this breed of moderate Muslims are at a serious loss for words and concepts when they are asked to react about radical issues of Islam as projected by the western media, from the backdrop of their own predominantly modern set of values in which they exist. It is almost like asking them to chew what they cannot chew, but ridiculously these moderates are also being asked to chew what `others want them to chew too`.

The present plight of the moderates is that their way of life has practically nothing to do with the Islamic way of life. They are moderates and they behave like the moderates of other communities, engrossed with the complex demands of their society. But the horrifying turn of events after 11 September 2001 in the US has forced on them the natural and instinctive reaction, to strongly condemn the terrorist attacks, to prevent Islam from being misunderstood as a driving force for terrorism. Suddenly they found out that just being modern and having a taste for Western culture and subscribing to the modern values of secularism, free world, and freedom of speech, etc. was not sufficient to identify themselves with the camps for the fight against terrorism. Their efforts to adjust themselves with modern realities took an abrupt downslide. And instead of finding themselves as the vanguard of their ethnic and religious counterparts, they found the radical cart before their moderate horse.

The hard fact that moderate Muslims realized was that they were considered Muslims first -- anything else was irrelevant and did not generate any confidence and security. The exclamation of words like `jehad` by Osama bin Laden and `crusades` by George W. Bush was enough to caution these moderates that they had to adjust their sails in the turbulent waters rather then going against the tide. And they had to remember the old adage, `when big elephants fight, it is always the grass that gets trampled`. The whole myth of freedom, free world, tolerance, liberalism and melting pot of cultures was exposed by the primal human instincts of racism, kinship and centering on the differentiation of religious backgrounds, in the aftermath of the WTC attacks. As an American Afghan put it, “We have been here for more than 100 years and have been brought up in the American value system. But when the time of crisis came this value system has taken a back seat and we are being discriminated against for no fault of ours; we are Americans and should be considered as one of them.”

In this situation, the radicals have no contradiction nor are they bothered about the moderates. They rather feel honored that not only is their presence seen as a threat by the civilized world but their otherwise minimal importance has been magnified to monstrous proportions. What they could never have achieved other than creating nuisance has been catapulted into a global threat by the media in its attempt to project the negative traits of these radical elements.

The chain of events that unfolded after 11 September 2001 has literally cramped our hackneyed political concepts of democracy, freedom, terrorism, global justice and world peace. All these concepts have to be redefined and made known to everyone before bouts of selective amnesia sprouts unwanted conflicts again. What is the difference between an undeclared terrorist attack and a planned, declared terrorist attack? If thousands of innocent lives were lost because of a terrorist attack in the United States just because someone had to settle a score with the US government and its Middle East policy, then is the US-led coalition doing anything different by killing innocent civilians just to nab Osama bin Laden and his associates? The case would have been easy for the moderate Muslim to react if UN-led coalition forces, after getting sanction from the world community, had launched an attack against the terrorists. The true color of Muslim moderates and Islamic countries would have been distinctively exposed and they would have been naturally isolated from the world body if they decided to act otherwise. But surprisingly the Nobel Peace prize for this year was given to the UN Secretary General, Mr. Kofi Annan. Perhaps the prize was for being complacent and inactive.

The other dilemma that moderate Muslims face is how Pakistan, the most probable country to be declared a terrorist state, an open supporter of Taliban, became the frontline partner of the US in the fight against terrorism. How should a moderate Muslim react to this whole issue: the US-led coalition is fighting a war against terrorism, its target is primarily Al Qaeda, but in the process Islam is being misunderstood and misinterpreted, Muslims are being discriminated against, and above all a Muslim nation is at the vanguard to fight against terrorism to protect the American interest.

Where does a moderate Muslim begin to speak what he wants to say? Should he distinguish Islam from being identified with terrorism as the media has portrayed it so far or should he as a civil citizen condemn in equal breath, like other civilized people, the crime against humanity? He finds himself in a dilemma because Islam and terrorism are being identified with each other by the people who understand it the least. And is quoting verses from the Koran totally out of context to justify his point of view in the present turbulent global situation?

The veil of religion, the hypocrisy of freedom and the hollowness of democracy have fallen. The `interest factor` has been the new revelation in this fight against terrorism. If the US is on a rampage to uproot terrorism while protecting and further promoting its own global interest by getting a stronger hold on its hegemonic designs, then moderate Muslims can see through these designs and are wary of giving a religious reaction to the whole issue of terrorism. But that doesn`t mean that moderates Muslims of whatever shade and color ought to be complacent. The responsibility has been thrust on them by force of circumstances to speak aloud about the inherent situation within Islam itself, and to single out why by some ambivalent interpretation of Islam, it is being apparently identified with terrorism.

RE: Scout #19

``We need to lobby for more positive media coverage.``

Wrong. More balanced coverage, perhaps, but to look for good things to say for the sake of it is irresponsible and dishonest. There is nothing wrong in showing Behind the Veil (a few times, not ``again and again`` as you purport); it is fine journalism, and Saira Shah must be commended for her bravery. Forgive her for not finding more ``positive`` things to report on, but she reported what she saw - the good and the bad (and there was both, but more of the latter, obviously). Just because you aren`t hearing and seeing what you want to hear and see doesn`t mean the media should sugar coat the news for your benefit.

South Asian woman Issues & Voiceses of silence



WARNING FOR BENGAL IN MUMBAI RED-LIGHT ZONE



FROM CHANDRIMA BHATTACHARYA



Mumbai, Nov. 23:

Kamathipura, Mumbai’s sprawling red light district, is crowded with women from West Bengal.

Reba used to live in Barasat — an ordinary girl with ordinary dreams — till she met her neighbour’s sister from Mumbai. The two became friendly and Reba’s new friend suggested she should come with her to Mumbai for a short visit. Reba’s family, poor but happy, bade her a fond farewell. That was the last they saw of her.

When they landed in Mumbai, Reba’s friend put her up in a hotel on Grant Road. They started going out in the evenings regularly, though a phone call to Barasat was always put off. Then her friend started bringing in male guests. The message was clear. “At first I used to cry and cry. Then I gave up,” says Reba.

That was two years ago. Now, a resident of Kamathipura, where she shares a 6 feet x 20 feet room with three other sex-workers — the beds separated by sarees or bed covers hanging from the stands — Reba doesn’t want to return home. “The police raided the other day and we were put behind bars. Then they asked us if we wanted to go home. I said no. My parents know what I do. They say our para won’t be able to accept me. And what is there in Calcutta? I’m better off here. There’s more money,” she says.

Like Reba, numerous women from West Bengal, possibly running into hundreds, have landed in Kamathipura, home of around 5,000 sex workers according to the last municipal count. In the dingy 14 lanes with their rows of multi-bed one-room quarters where sex can be had for Rs 60 to Rs 100, there are numerous women from Calcutta, its suburbs, 24-Parganas, Birbhum and Murshidabad.

The raid on Reba and her colleagues took place after a girl from near Calcutta, a minor, had brought the police in.

Some are here through force, some choice, for want of a better word. Some women have come from Sonagachhi. But many of the Bengali women have a different past. They are married, with children, and are still with their husbands. “Mostly with women from West Bengal, whole families come down,” says Seema Shroff of Asha, the AIDS project run by the Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation. “We get so many of them in our clinic in Kamathipura,” she adds.

“I used to live in Jadavpur, near the railway station. My husband was a construction worker. We have three children. We just couldn’t earn enough. So we came here,” says another Bengali woman in her mid-thirties, cleaning rohu fish, shankha and pala dangling from her hands. Her oldest son dances to a Govinda song in her dingy room where she plies her trade. Her husband, who is trying to get work, thinks his wife’s job is a necessary evil.

Kamathipura has always drawn women from various parts of the country, with several women from Karnataka, and of late from Nepal and Bangladesh, but the women from West Bengal are the latest to arrive. They have been trickling in over the past two or three years.

“One reason could be that previously they would be sent as maids to the Gulf countries. That market is saturated now. So Kamathipura,” says Priti Patkar, who runs Prerna, an NGO that works with the children of sex-workers.

But the more important reason is more basic. “Eshechhi peter jonyo,” says a woman from a Murshidabad village. “When I came here I tried to work as a maid. But that was hard work and little pay. Then a man I knew brought me here,” she says.

“I came 15 years ago. I was married. There were no Bengali women here then. Now all the gallis are full of them. They have come for the reason everyone comes to Mumbai — for money. Calcutta is tougher,” says a woman. “But I have sent my son to Calcutta where he goes to school,” she adds.

“Back home they think I sell old clothes. I will go back home one day. But as of now, I want a ration card.”

Dear Fawzia:

One of the very interesting essays on Chowk. I read it with great interest, because it touched an area of great interest to me. I finished it with the following impression:

1. that there is an attempt to define civilization devoid of politics and economics.

2. that ``Attack Rushdie`` is an acid test of Islamicness.

3. that it was refreshing to see that you successfully avoided Samuel Huntington who is often quoted by religious protagonists to comfort themselves of having a great future. I feel that religion has ceased to define modern civilizations. Hinduists, and Islamists, alike - if I can call them - are stuck in this mind set. While the peoples in the west and east are redefining civilization with politics, economics and other virtues as center piece. I guess nations in between are stuck in some kind of religious time warp which makes their visions myopic and prevents sights beyond. I also think one of the impacts of shortening time to flow the information across the globe would be that the religion would recede into a very personal spiritual role. Mullas would have to compete for Farzana Versey`s mindspace with information flow in Internet. Therefore, religions ability to impact modern societies at large would continue to erode. The inertia in societies would rear its head as hinduists, islamists - if Mr. Rushdie would allow me to define the term he has carefully coined.

4. Another refreshing part of your essay is the fact that you have tried to put women in the front and center. I hope you are thinking of separate Islamic solutions, Hindu solutions, Jewish solutions, Christian solutions etc. for women solutions, because that is a mistake.

5. Your disection of ``North`` and ``South`` is archaic. The flow of information in modern time, is what renders it archaic, because I firmly believe in the paradigm ``In Knowledge Lies the Power``. Now if the flow of information can be harnessed into knowledge for the benefit - whether it is in Mississippi in the North, or in Bangalore in the South - the prosperity shall follow. More important question is: can a society afford to leave the women out due to rachaic diktats of its prevailing religions. I think not, therefore, I reason that more important is to empower girls with education as early as possible, in these societies and see the difference in your life time. Mind you the traditions in societies may force a ``Computer Jee Temple`` in some remote village in Rajasthan. Then so be it, as far as I am concern. A Hinduist could be the pujari of this temple. Just as I would be very happy to leave the Islamist in a remote mosque too, as long as they would allow their girls to be empowered with education (and I mean education).

5. The state of Kerala in India, has demonstrated that empowering girls and women with education eradicates so many social problems - birth rate is comparable to the developed countries, child mortality is low, alchoholism is minimal to mention a few. Sadly, Keralite communists, unlike Chinese communists, missed out on economic prosperity indicators. Zehra on Chowk was developing a model to bring matriarchal family unit back. I hope she would continue to develop her thoughts and not be deterred by hinduists and islamists opposition she received at the Chowk, and will come back fighting.

Thank you,

ANIL KAPURIA

anil@kapuria.com

…it was heartening to your work, fawzia….more ``secularist-humanist” voices, male and female need to be heard from the muslim world…when is your memoir being published?….

Fawzia: Im not sure if anyone brought this up but there was an Indian sister in Canada who spoke out against America`s blood stained foriegn policy (after 9/11). I forgot her name, something like sunera thobani, anyways there were calls in Canada to have her citizenship removed, along with a predictably angry reaction from the United Snakes (did I mispell something?).

Much respect to all the sisters in ALL religions who speak out against oppression (especially RAWA!!)

Bapu: ``My views are my views ,i have right rto express just as much as you do.``

Correct me if Im wrong, but being an idiot, are u not also obligated to keep your mouth shut when intelligent people are writing?

And learn some fukkin sentance structure...

re bijli

``The motivation in all such cases has only resulted in intereligious marriages to non muslims to which Muslim ,like me dont see eye to eye with non muslims

Be it Salma Siddiqui ,Nargis ,Nadira to Budha Naipaul or anyone else .``

Marriage, intra- or iner- religous or any other kind, is a matter strictly between the two consenting adults and their God. Any other interference or judgement about it is patently immoral and uncalled for. Nadira doesn`t care if her husband is Hindu or Parsi, why do you?

CORRECT ENGLISH

Dr Khan,

You are a prof of english, what you are hearing from pakistan are the screams of women killed to protect the honour of the society. Scream, is it voice, or is it noice. Just asking.

All that you could dig up is one asma jahangir, for 70 ,illion muslim women of pakistan, well that is a typical pakistani trait, one thing fits all. Ehdi for nobel peace prize, ehdi for amnesty prize, ehdi for man of the millineum...blah.

If education is a means of social change, and if you believen in it, please produce the honour killing tremds in pakistan, and conclude what your alleged feminist voices have achieved. If you are really interested in pakistan, other than whitewashing its image, here is an info for you, honour killing has been declared legal by the lahore high court. Put that as foot note to your article, the tragic failure of asma jahangir.

Add also that the elected representatives of pakistan refused to condemn the killing of saima in asmas office. Put that in italics after the footnotes.

The man who organised the killing was later invited by the CE for a pfoto shoot, Dr. Khan add that in bold capitals after the above two notes.

To please YLH, let me quote wolpert, No academic has disgraced the profession, the country of birth, and the cause in a single article, the one who achieves it really speakes for their greatness. Make a guess prof, who is this great american writer, the hero of YLH talking about.

regards and best wishes to stear way from these relevant topics. stick to a for apple...k for kafir

jay

Dr Khan,

As a writer, I am sure you will need some inspiration, or at least some stories to check the veracity of your articles. In the follwing report, from dawn of today, you will notice that all you can hear is the scream, not the faminists voices as you allege. Education is a never ending process, may be it is time to start.

GILGIT: Two women killed in Gilgit

By Our Correspondent

GILGIT, Nov 23: Two women were murdered in separate incidents in Gilgit. Police officials told Dawn on Friday that body of a woman was found in the Gilgit River near Baseen on Nov 16. She was later identified as Shukrat, 23.

According to a post-mortem report, the victim was first struck by a stone in her head and then strangled.

The police could not get the post-mortem carried out immediately as no such facility of was available in all the five districts of the Northern Areas and all such cases are referred to down country hospitals and that process takes weeks before a final report is prepared.

Police have arrested Nadeem, husband of the victim, on the complaint of her father Suleman Ali.

In an another case, the police arrested two brothers, Gul Muhammad and Nur Muhammad, for allegedly killing their sister, Zulayja, 25, mother of a six-month-old girl, in Konodas.

The police said that the brothers suspected that their sister was having a bad character.

Ref Old-Faithful #: 19

[We need to lobby for more positive media coverage.]

For whom? For those women who accept the challenge to voice their support of the destruction of Bamiyan Buddhas at the Metropolitan Museum of Art and who then turn around and blame the US that she cannot go to her neighborhood coffehouse the day after the Sept 11 bombings because she is Pakistani? Yes, I would like to see that hypocrisy aired publicly. (In case you have forgetten, it is you, Ms. Spout, that I am talking about here.)

[Why is ``Behind the Veil`` aired again and again on CNN?]

So that we will all know exactly what the Islamists can do, particularly when they cross all lines of civilized behavior. Today the Bamiyan Buddhas, tomorrow living, breathing human beings of the female sex.

[Where are the voices of RAWA and other Muslim female activists?]

RAWA was repeatedly identified on ``Behind the Veil`` as the providers of video footage, as those running clandestine schools for girls and operators of beauty parlors in Kabul.

[Did you send this to the NY Times? And if so, did it get published?]

Doesn`t The New York Times have editorial rights as to what they publish and don`t publish? Does Chowk not choose to publish actual quotes from the Headshrinker or FartsAna Versey when I post them? So don`t cry about that ``Jewish propaganda rag`` not giving equal space to Islamist thugs.

Ref dost-mittar#: 19

[It`s especially nice to know that you are into North Indian Classical music; maybe you can sometimes tell us how this type of music is doing in Pakistan.]

It would do better if their classical musicians move to India, that`s for sure.

[``The Arabs and Muslims claim that their religion is a religion of tolerance, but they show no tolerance for those who oppose their opinions.``]

Major discovery by a Westerner, worthy of the Nobel Prize. This is just the usual apology trotted out after WTC or whenever the Muslims find themselves pounded by overwhelming force as in Kunduz and Kandahar. Drop the Dailycutter on them, I say!

Ref saminashah #: 19

[If we agree that it is imperative that women writers be given the space and respect they deserve, how is it that certain interactors on Chowk who accumulate several nicknames are permitted to post obscene and harrassing messages aimed at women who interact on Chowk?]

You wouldn`t be referring to the Headshrinker whose usual appellation for some people is M-fer, would you?

(Note to Editors: I know it is Ramzan and you shouldn`t say these bad words but, what the heck, if the brain-dead psycho can say it, I can repeat it.]

Hamid,

Thanks for the correction...I had originally known that she was of Pakistani descent (Meatless Days), but got mired in some of her postcolonial theory-which is almost unsurmountably brilliant...particularly an essay in which she writes about how the diversity of the subcontinent defied British categorization and how English textual attempts at photographing, identifying, and studying various South Asian communities in efforts to ``know`` them, ultimately broke down. Still refer to her work in my studies.

Chowkies

Again, we are offered and expected to accept the most craven of justifications of why a specific interactor cannot refrain from cursing at or using sexually harrassing language when reacting to posts written by women.Apparently we must all suffer his nonsense, because this interactor cannot handle diversity of opinion, expression, or choice especially when from women. This is all very pathetic, but why is this our problem? Why is it that other Chowkies cannot have conversations without being the recipients of extremely insulting messages, because HE cannot handle Hindus,progressives, Muslims, Christians and all women?

I guess some of us like to see him embarrass himself at any cost.

Reply #: 35 sigalph235

[``Here is a quote from the same BBC where you found the Hindu exodus,(the BBC that you hold as gospel)``]

[``I am just quickly mentioning this to show the other readers your one-man, hate-filled, innuendo-laced campaign against Bangladesh.``]

Denial seems to be a common South Asian trait. Sigalph235, why don`t you cash the newly acquired ``Friedman certificate`` (instead of BBC clips) when someone points to religious cleansing in Bangladesh?

[If you don`t like the Islamisation of Pakistan, the manly thing would be to try to correct that, not claim that `others` are like Pakistan too.]

What has Pakistan got to do with this situation you pathetic liar? Did Pakistanis elect Khalida Zia to power? Are Pakistanis knocking on the doors of Bangladeshi Hindus? Are Pakistanis grabbing the Hindu property in Bangladesh? Is Pakistani police supporting the BNP murderers?

[Which is why we kicked Pakistanis out cold thirty years ago.]

And the world should be indebted till eternity and look the other way while you greedy jackals grab your neighbors` homes.

Ref hamzad afaqui #: 37

I have been meaning to write to you but was distracted temporarily by Thanksgiving... I was giving thanks that I am not a woman trapped in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen or any number of those other paradises on earth for the holy warriors.

By the way, I am really moved by all that stuff about religious freedom for Muslims in China that you have been posting on the other board. I am wondering if you would be willing to share with me some of the stuff you have been smoking. It seems to be some really powerful stuff and I am sure I haven`t seen anythig this good in a long long time.

hamzad #37

quote from someone who converted from Judaism to Islam

-----

Since the Holy Qur`an is divine revelation, it cannot and will never be changed. Because it is perfect, it cannot be improved, revised or reformed. Since Muhammad, upon whom be peace, is the final Prophet, his guidance can never be superseded by any other. The Qur`an and Sunnah are addressed to all peoples, in every country of the West as well as the East. Since it is relevant for all times, in all places, it can never become obsolete or out-of-date.

-----

The above illustrates starkly why there is no such thing as moderate Islam. ``We are the best. Our belief system is perfect. It is not variable. It is context independent. The Other is flawed.``. From this stance to religious ethnocentrism is a short step and a few hops, steps, and jumps lands one firmly in Taleban/OBL territory. The quote also shows quite clearly that the fanaticism of the freshly converted (to any belief system) exceeds those of the born faithful. Clearly if one can justify action based on some Koranic verse it is impossible to argue against it. And from what one has read it is possible to find verses extolling violence against the infidel etc.; so these can be used conveniently to justify acts of terror.

Even though one might put an innocuous spin my reading is that this belief system accounts very precisely why followers of islam tend to see themselves in very exclusionist terms, no matter where they happen to live in the world. Given such a world view, one better suited for Medieval Arabia, it is not surprising that numerous ``terrorist`` groups and separatist movements are associated with followers of Islam. It also explains why even deviations from the ``true`` Islam are excommunicated and even actively persecuted (Bahaais, Ahmeddiyas).

Many muslims (rightly) complain about their stereotyping as terrorists as P(terrorist|muslim) is vanishingly small. But to see where the stereotyping comes from examine P(Muslim| terrorist) or P(Muslim|terror group) or P(Muslim|separatist group); all three are alarmingly high and accounts for the stereotyping and consequent inflation (unjustified as it may be) of P(terrorist|muslim).

I am not for one moment suggesting that parallel views do/did not exist among adherents of Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism or Hinduism. But these views tend to be non-mainstream and do not define the world view of the typical adherent. From my observations the majority of Jews, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists do not place great weight on their religious identity (in most cases, ethnic, cultural, professional or national identity tends to be as or even more important).

It appears that the Islamic world still awaits its reformation movement (which happened so many centuries ago for christianity and in the nineteenth century in Hinduism). Until then the voices of the moderates (be they men or women) will continue to be marginalized (except in places like Chowk). Such a reformation could happen in this century but it presupposes a huge increase in literacy and education amongst the followers of Islam and the emergence of leaders (both political and intellectual) who can reconstruct Islam.

regards

warpster

re: saminashah

``Again, we are offered and expected to accept the most craven of justifications of why a specific interactor cannot refrain from cursing at or using sexually harrassing language when reacting to posts written by women.Apparently we must all suffer his nonsense, because this interactor cannot handle diversity of opinion, expression, or choice especially when from women. This is all very pathetic, but why is this our problem? Why is it that other Chowkies cannot have conversations without being the recipients of extremely insulting messages, because HE cannot handle Hindus,progressives, Muslims, Christians and all women?``

the more you respond, the more you provoke the retard...why not try ignoring him?

Chronology According To Hindu Fundamentalists

Chronology According To Hindu Fundamentalists

by (c) Ramesh Mahadevan on November 24, 2001 at 4:27:49 AM

Warning: This post is intended to be a satire.

March, 3452 BC: Shri Ram is born in Ayodhya, at the very spot where a mosque would be built later to cause much controversy.

Circa 3000 BC: Several fools start writing vedas and upanishads and try to give a philosophical basis to the Hindu religion. These morons should have realized that when eventually Hinduism becomes an organized religion and a social institution, it has a force of its own and very few would care for such philosophical basis.

Circa 2920 BC: A very learned Guru gets frustrated while teaching a moron of a student and invents zero while grading his test.

A few years later: Hindu scientists formulate the General Theory of Relativity and the Unified Field Theory. Much of these theories are hidden in complex sanskrit slokas and a good part of it was smuggled out of the country by the Germans and the British and lost forever.

0 AD: Christianity, an offshoot of Hinduism, is born.

N + 1000 BC to N BC: A hindu golden age, known as Ramrajya, is established over the entire subcontinent. There are temples everywhere. Everyone observes the caste protocols. The cows are happy. Ghee is available in plenty. All computer programs work without any problems.

Breakaway cults: Some non-conformists form cults called Jainism and Buddhism. Rational people put these iconoclasts to shame, so much so, the Buddhists are driven out of India. Understandably many Jain and Buddhist literature and culture had to be destroyed by peaceloving Hindus.

Chandragupta Vikramaditya`s period: Another great `Golden Age` according to most historians. Manusmriti was the law of the land and women were rightfully treated as `untouchables`. In his next birth, Vikramaditya Chaudhuri joins Oracle Systems and writes on SCI.

Sometime before 10 th century: Islam, another offshoot of Hinduism is born.

The only known episode of hindu atrocity: A Jain was slapped in the wrist by a Hindu in Nalanda University when they were fighting over a girl. The Jain later apologized to the Hindu for provoking him.

Babar`s rule: Enormous atrocities are heaped on peace loving Hindus. Even granting that war and stuff like that generally make people irrational, Babar went too far and to top it, he demolished Ram Mandir at the Jhanmabhoomi to make it the pinnacle of his career. He also left about fifteen hundred pieces of irrefutable evidence about his act of demolishing the temple.

Akbar`s rule: Commits Hindu atrocity by marrying a Hindu woman and by formulating his own brand of religion called `Teen Elahi`. Secret service agents suddenly discover that Akbar had failed to renew his visa and that he is actually a citizen of China - he retained his Chinese citizenship because of his Chengiz Khan lineage. The Muslims impose their inferior culture on the hapless Hindu citizens. And a thousand years later they won`t even apologize to the Hindus for what their ancestors did many hundred years ago.

Sometime during the Moghul period: Some Hindus start calling themselves Sikhs.

Discovery of Krishna Jhanmabhoomi and other bhoomis : Krishna Jhanmabhoomi was discovered - to be at the exact same spot as the present day Taj Mahal. Shiv Jhanmabhoomi is discovered to be the same as Jamma Masjid and so forth. Hindus rightfully fight for these temples.

1947-48: A fool of a hindu-basher, Mahatma Gandhi, actually organizes fasts to promote amity between the Hindus and Muslims, instead of asking all the Muslims to pack up and go to Pakistan.

Modern India: Muslims start countless, unprovoked riots in India and every time many, many more innocent Hindus die than Muslims. This is despite the Muslims becoming so dominant in every aspect of the society such as in education, civil services and politics - all these gains obtained by systematic exploitation of passive and nice Hindus and the special treatment given to the minorities in general. Hindus sacrifice a lot to the point of self-destruction.

1958: Rekha, a Hindu goddess of love is born.

RSS and VHP emerge as major schools of human thought: Guru Golmalkar emerges as one of the greatest stinkers, I mean, thinkers of the twentieth century. A whole nation follows his footsteps and organizes his thoughts into action. In fact, the RSS philosophy completely replaces ancient outmoded philos such as the Vedas and the Upanishads as the mainstream Hindu school.

VHP grows in strength and status: Vishwa Hindu Parishad becomes a premier secular organization in India and has a number of projects for Muslims as well, including helping out one poor Muslim family in Poona. Muslims, impressed by the compassion VHP has for them, join VHP in millions and even those parochial Muslims who don`t join this secular, peaceloving institution, support it unconditionally. Only some idiots on SCI write anti-VHP stuff.

http://www.aunet.org/ramesh/ramesh15.html

Ali1, denial indeed is the South Asian trait, we wish somehow the problem goes away. When we try to do something, generally it is a full blown cancer, and nothing can restore it back, even amputation is not enough. Here at Chowk or somewhere in other website, we come, flex our muscle, us, the pot-bellied financial controllers, the doctors, the engineers, the professors, the writers, express our opinion at the middle of the night, while humanity slips away deep into darkness little by little. Just look around in our world, what do you see?

Don`t you think, there is an inherent problem with our creator?

``At Critical Crossroads,`` published in Dawn, the largest circulating English-language daily of Pakistan , Asma Jahangir, leading advocate of Human and Women’s Rights and President of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, (who has herself had to face innumerable death threats from ``Islamists`` for her courageous defense of women victims of the most hideous ``crimes of honor``), writes from a``both/and`` perspective regarding the 9/11 catastrophe, in contradistinction to Rushdie’s univocal analysis. ``

``yet they also wish to remind the world that, unfortunately, it was ``the government of the United States who supported Pakistani dictator General Zia-ul-Haq in creating thousands of religious schools from which the germs of the Taliban emerged.``

Part of the story is missing here namely everything cannot be ascribed to US policy or the Islamists. Asma Jahangir and other courageous Pakistani activists for womens` rights have also been campaigning a