An International Failure

shammi #267
You may have seen an exchange on this `elsewhere`.
http://www.piads.com.pk/users/piads/kargilarticles.html

A list of gallantry awards to armed forces personnel on top and a long list of analyses by experts, based on claims or implications that only Kashmiri mujahiddeen were involved in the same conflict for which armed forces personnel won those awards?? Its mindblowing that the site owners and the experts donot realise that they are themselves proving to any reader that they are all lying.
(Seriously, dementia comes to mind :()

sherdil #264
``but I`m a little puzzled by your disagreement with Stuka`s post on the terrorist attack.``

sherdil, what do you think, why did Brig Rashid Qureshi, Musharraf`s spokesman say on television that India had engineered the Parliament attack on itself?

tahmed321 #271
Anyone is free to interpret anything as they like, but compulsive hostility was not the issue there, that comes and goes. The Pakistani Foreign Minister`s dissembling was the issue.

Hopefully, Indian and Pakistani officials are conveying some meaningful message to each other with these statements with some other hidden meaning not obvious to the general public.

sadna #251 You write ``Abdus Sattar said on CNN yesterday something like ``India has a elemental hostily toward Pakistan...``

Perhaps he reached this conclusion after reading certain chowk posters... (Just joking - I am equally fed up of Pakistanis and Indians who think like this).

bluenoon #199 you write, referring to Pakistanis, that ``the basket is full of bad eggs and I am calling a spade a spade, political correctness notwithstanding.``

These are the words of a bigot. Say hello to your fellow bigot Sadna who has said the same thing many times, and to arjun, who is on chowk for the express purpose of ridiculing Pakistanis from the safety of his home. Also say hello to your brother bigot from across the border, urstruly, who cant help but see all 850 million hindus as being in the same basket.

Bigots can be harmless (as in chowk interactions, where they simply post insults) or they can be harmful (as in the Gujrat, where they can form a mob, throw kerosene over 8 year old children and put them on fire). They can be hindus or muslims, Pakistanis or Indians. But the mindset is always the same.

Fortunately, no Pakistani has to prove anything to you and your kind. We just need to make sure that we have enough military strength to make sure that you can never hope to walk into Pakistan and inflict your hatred on innocent people.

So, enjoy posting your useless opinions and your stupid insults on chowk. You will never have a chance to do this in real life without getting a slap on your face.

Sameerjb #233 Based on my unscientific ``survey`` of what Pakistanis think, I dont believe most people would like to see BB or NS back in power. They dont want mullahs in power, that is for sure. And Musharaff has so far done far more than you give him credit for. Not the least of which is that he has been in office for over an year and so far been quite honest. And he has put the fear of God in the loan defaulters, brought a corrupt naval chief back to pakistan in shame and in chains from the US, broken the back of the rotten bureaucracy and made a solid start in introducing democracy at the local government level - How can you ignore all this??? I agree that he needs to do more on fixing the religious extremists in Pakistan,and to mend fences with India, and I never liked the looks of Sattar anyway and you have confirmed my suspicions. But you need to be more balanced and fair in your criticism.

``I am expected to defend my homeland and kill.`` (Yahuda Goldsteen)

Holiday greeting from Showk to Yahuda Goldsteen:

Happy Killing -- Yahuda Goldsteen -- have a nice time in the child killer army.

Goldsteen: So you are off to the trenches. Does this mean we will be deprived of your routine, moronic insults to us Pakis?

Anyway, stay clear of the incoming stones and try not to kill people...

Re:Reply #: 250

sadna,

India is a soft state. We are comparing ourselves with USA which is the sole superpower. India can do a lot without taking military action, which should be the last resort. Diplomatically, India is now informing the western powers of Pak`s involvement. Once US and others are convinced, you may see a change in their policies. Already, US is pressurising Pak to come down on the 2 terrorist groups.

Pak does not have a friendly western border and is in a vulnerable position. Why would Mushy gain anything by such acts of terror is anyone`s guess. I think he is getting desperate. All he got from US for his cooperation was money distributed over time. His Taliban policy is in shambles. He is unable to convince US that Kashmir terrorists are freedom fighters. We may expect more such desperate acts but that only will put more nails in his coffin.

Sridhar

Yahuda,

Dude, reading your post made me verklempt...the touching manner in which you have kept in touch with your inner mensch; its enough to give a girl the will to dump her schmattahs at the Good wWill and join you...who needs Women in Black when you`ve got enough chutzpah and meshugana to open a can of whoop derrier on those ingrateful Palestinian insects...yes, that the answer; dialogue=no, death=yes....btw, have you seen the Hassidim Workout Video? This is no Balfour agreement talking, I read in yesterday`s fishwrapping paper that there is a video out to get the Hassidim hopping...and the part youre really going to oy vey over is that some of the moves are taken from Tai Chi and Yoga...

Yahuda #247,

freak

Re: sadna

``If India does nothing too long, we will next have planes flying into high rise buildings``

I concur. India will pay a very heavy price in the future if it refuses to take this matter up with the utmost seriousness with Pakistan. A noisy democracy is easily distracted with several issues, but this one needs to be pressed home fully. Inaction will cost us very dearly indeed.

Nasah #245: You asked: ``Now sameer, tell the Indians what India should do``.

Now that is a tough question that can put me in opposite corner easily. It is not easy for me to respond as objectively as I would have liked - mainly because some innocent Pakistanis may have to pay the price. Do I care about innocent Indians? Definitely! I deeply regret the loss of innocent lives of both Indians and Pakistanis. In the Parliament attack case as well as attack in Srinagar near Kashmir Assembly, I offer my condolences to the families of those killed by terrorists and not for terrorists.

A simple answer to your question would be to do whatever is necessary to punish the guilty party and make sure that such events do not happen again. The simple answer is very difficult to implement. India does not have the technology and kind of edge USA enjoyed over Afghanistan. I would be concerned on both accounts of a successfulness of the operation as well as the cost in terms of Indian casualties - with more doubtful of the success of rooting out the sources of terrorism from Pakistan or PK. Well, it took USA continuous bombing for more than a month and yet OBL evaded capture [unless you believe that it is another of Mushy`s smart move to lure OBL into Pakistan and then hand him over to USA, effectively adding another 25 million to one billion aid USA has promised. Add another 20 million for luring Mulla Omar to Pakistan as well. I am impressed with Mushy`s samrt moves. Now I understand why he wanted OBL to build his caves network so close to Pakistan....hehe...hehe].

No sensible Pakistani expects India to buckle under such terrorist attacks and present Kashmir to Pakistan on a golden platter. So what to do?

As I mentioned in my previous post to isolate and ignore and disregard Musharraf. It was just a reminder to Shammi and Stuka to look positively to the people of Pakistan and not Musharraf - not that I had any doubt that they do not. So in my opinion India should not have invited Musharraf to Agra and given him sort of legitimacy at home. India has to go to the source to cure cancer. Instead they chose to elevate the source to honorable position. India should have followed what Mohathir Mohammed said to him. You may visit Malaysia if you like but you are not invited. India did not even give him a lesson in democracy what MM told him on his face. Pakistani military and Mush saw it as another Indian weakness with the general feeling that Indians are cowards and would not like to fight Pakistani brave soldiers.

Pakistan has proposed discussion in the UN General Assembly. It would be better for India to call Security council meeting instead. I do not know the current make up of Security Council but a resolution condemning terrorism, JeM, HUM and LeT is possible through Security Council resolution. Second step is more important if BJP wants to win the next election and does not give ammunition to Congress for being inactive or weak. That is why, I believe a small scale operation is in the cards where a company or a battalion can take out even an abandoned training center or hide out in remote PK region and claim victory. The claim of victory is very important and that is why I do not think a large scale operation is in the cards.

It would be much better for India to invite and back Pakistani democracy movement and even inviting some members of Sharif clan from Saudi Arabia as well as Altaf Hussain and BB might be invited again. A large scale war will harden the public stance on both side making any rapprochement impossible.

Addition to my previous post: I did not mean to imply there were only three (!) clear-thinking Indians on chowk - my apologies if I seemed rude. In particular, Sadna, I`ve found your posts well thought out - but I`m a little puzzled by your disagreement with Stuka`s post on the terrorist attack. Did I miss something?

There are some very good interacts taking place here - I`ve missed participating here.

Feroze, 1. if ``Realpolitik is the ability to realistically adjust to the various changes in international balance of power arrangements by keeping the political interests of the state supreme at all times`` then it looks like Musharraf has done exactly that re: Afghanistan.

And 2. if ``(per) Richelieu, national interest must never be subordinated to a religious goal and national interest must be realistically pursued without any paeans to an ideological fanaticism or a religious zeal``, then the recent actions of President Musharraf against the madrassas and the Maulanas/religious extremists also show a move by him along these lines.

And 3. ``The creation of Pakistani foreign policy...is influenced not only by the foreign office in Islamabad; it is also created by the Inter-Services-Intelligence; the various militant/Islamic jehadi groups, which operate from the soil of Pakistan; domestic political considerations of exiled and discredited politicians (like Benazir Bhutto, Nawaz Sharif and Altaf Hussain) to advance their own domestic interests in Pakistan.`` It looks like it is this that Musharraf was preparing to tackle when the latest brouhaha broke over the terrorist attack in the Indian Parliament. There was a recent Iftar dinner in Islamabad and among the guests were (Rtd) Air Marshall Asghar Khan, Imran Khan, Ghulam Mustafa Jatoi, Mumtaz Bhutto, Leghari, Hayat. These look like effective moves against the likes of Benazir and Nawaz on their home turf.

As regards the attack on the Indian Parliament - I think Stuka, you have written clearly and without prejudice in your post. And I get the feeling that most clear-thinking Indians (Shankar, Dost-Mittar, Zafar among others - (?)) will agree with you that it is not Musharraf who is to blame here. This attack is almost certainly an act of desperation, by those who wish to put President Musharraf and Pakistan in a corner. What else could they have possibly hoped to achieve? Very obviously the hope was to put pressure on President Musharraf and Pakistan, and not to give Musharraf time to move against the extremist groups. That is exactly what Musharraf needs - time to purge Pakistan of them. The response from India so far is not helpful, nor is it very well thought out. Regardless of that, whoever it was, this terrorist act may backfire on the terrorists and may have done Pakistan (and Musharraf) a favor: He can now move a lot faster against the extremist elements in the militant groups and that will leave the genuine freedom fighters in the forefront, which could work out far better for the Kashmiri struggle. The legitimacy of the Kashmiri struggle won`t be made hazy by the extremists. It looks like most international analysts are urging India to cool it (International Herald Tribune, Boston Herald, South Asia Times, Far East Economic Review, Gulf Times) - (especially since Pakistan offered cooperation in the investigation and also suggested that the FBI assist - both of which were rejected by the Indian government). This episode again has brought into focus the general support Pakistanis have for Musharraf. A previous post here mentioned a 9% support for Musharraf. The 9% support numbers were quoted in Dawn and referred to a poll in Sindh villages and were numbers from PPP commissioners in Sindh - just those guys. Sindh is in a battle for water rights these days and some of the dissatisfaction is due to this issue. Some of the PPP are quite obviously Benazir supporters. What is interesting is that in the same poll, the PML commisioners overwhelmingly supported Musharraf (Numbers in the same poll). I`ve travelled from Peshawar to Islamabad/Rawalpindi to Murree to Nathiagali to Skardu to Faisalabad to Lahore to Sukker to Jacobabad to Larkana to Quetta to Hyderabad to Thatta to Karachi and am back in Peshawar: this is from the Pakistanis IN Pakistan: They are overwhelmingly supportive of President Musharraf. They think what he is doing for Pakistan will bring back the years of progress in the fifties/sixties. I`ve heard this time and again. A reporter from the Christian Science Monitor in Lahore made an interesting comment. He said that during the previous 10-15 years he found Pakistan to be a dour and depressing place. No one smiled, and he could not wait to get back to India (he was based in Mumbai) where he could see smiling faces again. He said: ``It looks like Pakistanis have found their smiles again``. Larkana and Jacobabad were where I found strong support for Benazir (not surprisingly). Karachi is very much for President Musharraf. Benazir is reduced to making appearances in the Indian media and though she is trying to make President Musharraf look like a unpopular dictator, his popularity aggravates her mightily. So far she remains strong in her traditional Sindh areas only.

P.S. Hope everyone had a great Eid.

Ref Ferozk #: 241

[The reason that comparsion is flawed as you have mentioned the poor classes of India had the right to vote, but more importantly had their votes count for something. The poor classes in Pakistan never had that right and even if they did cast a ballot, it was not worth the paper it was printed upon.]

After the Nov 2000 Presidential elections, Mike Savage, a right-wing radio talk-show host, kept saying that it is not who votes that is important in an election but who counts the votes. Supposedly this was a statement by Stalin and he kept repeating it in his support of Dubya`s teetering victory in Florida.

Nevertheless, the way you make elections count is by having sealed ballot boxes, representatives of all contestants at the polling booths to ensure that no one is turned away from voting, and security of the ballot boxes until they are opened and the votes are counted. It has been done with remarkable success with paper ballots in India despite the occasional incident of capturing a polling booth or snatching away a ballot box in recent years, in which case the Election Commission has stepped in and ordered a re-poll.

The last elections in India were conducted with electronic voting machines. The integrity of the voting process has withstood scrutiny and a challenge that went all the way to the Supreme Court. In fact, the IT minister Pramod Mahajan jokingly told an American audience last May that India was able to tabulate and announce results hours after the closing of polls as opposed to the drama that was played out in Florida.

There ARE technical means to overcome the problem. As people start believing in the electoral process, you will find that your landless haris will not be taking instructions on how to vote from your feudals. The reason their votes will count is that they are more numerous than any number of feudals, bureaucrats, military types and urban dwellers. When their representatives run on a platform of land reform and get elected in large numbers to your National Assembly, you can expect legislation regarding land reform. Until then, unless you have idealistic leaders with socialist tendencies and a large and obedient parliamentary group -- I am referring to Nehru here -- you can`t get land reforms or any other type of reforms passed through your legislatures.

Pakistanis have another way of resolving the issue: the Naxalites in India and more recently in Nepal have decided that Mao`s armed struggle is the way to go and they go about killing abusive landlords and other local petty tyrants. The same situation obtains in South American countries such as Colombia and Peru. The rich Colombians of course have their US green cards and their condos in Miami so that in case the rebels actually succeed in controlling large areas of territory in their country, they have the escape hatch. Maybe that is what the Pakistanis are also doing.

If you don`t have a relief valve for the pressures that are building up in a society, the only result one can expect is a violent explosion as happened in Russia in 1917 and in China.