The Forgotten Children of God

Re: #65

warpster,

(1)

``I am going to be a contrarian and say that India would be incredibly dull were it not for this diversity. The last thing India wants is a boring monoculture. In that sense the caste system is something to admire...``

Bill O`Reilly was joking the other day: Stop racial profiling. Then, 30 secs before your hijacked plane rams into a building, you can have the pleasure of leaning over to your neighbour and saying ``Well, at least we didn`t offend them.``

To put it in your terms warpster: Stop all this caste equality business. I may be a low caste, but hey...at least my life is not boring...I mean, look at these `monoculture` muslims...

(2)

``Two principles appear to emerge from the discussions on this board...``

I see only one principle: `Modern` Brahmins will say the damnest things when a discussion on caste comes along...



regards,

HamidM: Well I must say its an honour to speak to the Ganesh of Chowk...

``...... this might come as a surprise to you, but the overwhelming majority of pakistanis know nothing, and let me repeat this - absolutely nothig - about hinduism``

Get the hell outta here! I just thought they knew nothing about Islam, ganja and the benefits of a weekly shower. Im speechless, I must rethink my whole belief system.

``....most mock the hindu religion for being weird and silly and do not even consider it to be a ``real`` religion ....``

Well I would tend to agree with that. Hinduism is somewhat odd. What kind of religion doesnt have invisible fire people? Are they crazy? And don`t even get me started on the flying horse thing - Ingenious. Seriously, Islam never gets the credit it deserves. The person who gave us the Quran was illiterate, how cool is that?

``... those of us who have not seen this masterpiece are quite ignorant about this great and ancient religion ......``

I guess the ``simpsons`` are not your cup of...um shot of coke and hennessey?

To tell you the truth, I can care less about hindu-muslim unity. You maybe the wrong person to ask but have my attempts at dethroning you worked? If not I will move on to phase two (4-5 ellipsis every 4-5 lines, no uppercase letters and concluding every post with `rgds` or `lve`).

PS: at least tell me what you thought of the Coles Law (coleslaw) joke. I was saving that one for years...

Rsaxena,

First of all I think the ban on entry of the Non Muslims into Mecca is wrong and absolutely inconsistent with the spirit of Islam. We know for a fact that the Prophet received envoys in these cities who were not Muslim. Indeed by not letting Non-Muslims visit Mecca we are depriving Humanity of its own heritage and history of which we have no right even as Muslims.

However there can`t be a moral equivalence between caste system and the Meccan practise. One could argue that once a human being regardless of how he/she was born dark or fair, with one leg or two, or whether he/she was born illegitimate or legitimate, or whether he/she were a man or woman can visit that place once he accepts the faith of Islam ... in essence Islam doesnt discriminate on the basis of birth... in caste system, no matter how pious and holy one gets one can`t become Brahmin through promotion (I know they were flexible back in the day).

I disagree with the principle of discrimination on the basis of faith and conscience but I don`t see an equivalence with discrimination on the basis of color, race or accident of birth.

Sincerely

YLH

Drumz

``Maybe later someone can explain to me the symbolic significance of the some hindu demi gods. Not the literalist opinions on why so and so has a elephants face, but what symbols was such a description trying to portray.

``

I hope you do not mind my answering that question although it has been answered several times by others on Chowk. From a theological perspective, creation hymn of Rigveda and upanishadas, especially Aranyakas, maintain that there is a supreme entity Brahm, all pervaasive, and indestructible. When a disciple asks a learned man(Maha-rishi)who is this Brahm, what qualities/features he has, Maha-rishi replies he is very abstract and indescribable. The only way you can describe Him is by negation.(`neti,neti`) ie. Brahm is ``not this``. So He is described as ``Nirguna, Nirvikaar, Nirakar`` Par-Brahm.

Nirguna= devoid of any ``properties``. ie. good/bad, hot/cold etc or any other conceivable physical/chemical properties.

Niraakar= Without any form/shape. Also means invisible, endless, all pervasive by extension.

Nirvikaar= without any imperfections, absolute.



This is the abstract description of God ie Brahm in Upanishadas which was perceived to be neither a form of material nor energy but beyond that. It was recognized that all other deities like Indra, Varun, etc are mere manifestations of Brahm. Some other wise men expressed doubt about existence of any such supreme entity and followed an agnostic philosophy of life eg Sankhya or Charvak school of thought. Buddha was another such person. Even Shankaracharya who expounded the theory of Advaitism was initially called agnostic. Later the concept of Brahm was expressed by means of ``Trinity`` of Brahmaa(note the difference), the Creator, Vishnu, the protector, Shiva the destroyer. There is no explicit concept of Shaitan in this definition as everything is a manifestation of Brahm. Since the concept of this

abstract Brahma was very difficult to relate to for the common masses, it appears that the concept of ``personal Gods`` came to be sanctioned into Hinduism with the understanding that any such ``personal God`` is the individual`s own picturisation of Brahm. Thus there was little fighting amongst Hindus who worshipped their own version of this Brahm since there was an underlying understanding that all these are superficially various versions of the same thing.

One of the ancient text describes seven stages of enlightenment in which an individual climbs various ``sopaan``(ladder), the lowest one being the idol-worship. An idol is only a means for the uninitiated common masses to ``relate`` to what is essentially indescribable and unimaginable. A Yogi in seventh ``sopaan`` should be enlightened enough to experience Brahm without the need of any such material aids like idols. For this reason, Swami Dayananda staunchly opposed idol worship and established ``Arya Samaj`` free of idol worship and casteism. Anyways, the concept of ``personal Gods`` in Hinduism thrived, perhaps because of its simplicity, perhaps because of Bhakti movement, however the central concept of Brahm always provided a unifying thread to the worshippers of diverse deities. ``There is only one Brahm, but different people describe it in different ways`` is a famous Vrihad-Aranyaka upanishadic saying. Perhaps this was what provided ``unity in diversity`` to Indian culture and was responsible for much of its tolerence.

Saxena

``but what about that big mosque in mecca or medina or wherever that doesn`t let some human beings in? should that be demolished too``

Saxena, let us restrict ourselves to our criticism and not fall into the trap of raising the bogey of other religions. Caste system is a social evil with no place in the modern world. As goes the famous Buddhist saying, `` All things must pass``, so shall this system. I care about the ills of our culture and society. Who gives a rat`s a$$ what is done in Mecca or Medina. Remember open societies progress and closed societies perish.

Having largely lived in urban India (sometimes in not so big cities) I gotta admit I never found out what the ``caste`` of my clasmates was. And neither did anyone else as far as I can remember. Of course it would have been different had I been born a dalit, sensitized to the category and the tales of victimhood, past and present etc.

Two principles appear to emerge from the discussions on this board

1.The ``lower`` one`s caste is, the higher the caste consciousness (not unlike being a black in the USA).

2.People who discriminate the most are people who are just one or few steps above these ``low`` castes.

3.The appeal of belonging to a victimized category explains the activities of certain dalit leaders and educated people.

The whole concept of a backward caste (this is different from scheduled caste/tribe) is a political invention post independence. In certain states virtually everyone is backward according to the definition (except maybe 20% of the population).

However go to a village the story is very different. Caste as a category is important and rightly so. It gives a lot of useful info (not that different from religion or language or socio economic status) to the expert from the region.

There are hundreds (thousands?) of castes in India. A person from Haryana will have no idea about caste in Tamil Nadu. and vice versa; except in the foggiest terms. A caste is essentially a subculture with its own combination of language, religious and cultural practices, occupational history and so on. The brahmin/vaisya/kshatriya/sudra/outcastes distinctions is a crude overlay which is not very informative.

I am going to be a contrarian and say that India would be incredibly dull were it not for this diversity. The last thing India wants is a boring monoculture. In that sense the caste system is something to admire, a system that has evolved over millenia and will CONTINUE to do so. It makes perfect sense to marry within ones caste (or religion, race, or language group) all other things being equal. It occurs with blinding regularity all over the world.

One can like the fact that India has so many castes and also simultaneously strongly disapprove of DISCRIMINATION (which has been outlawed since when?) based on caste which mostly occurs in rural areas, particularly in the bihar-UP belt.

What might be interesting would be study if religious conversion helps people from scheduled castes. My hunch is that religious conversion to christianity helped a great deal as the missionaries also are/were influential in establishing modern educational institutions. I suspect conversion of these folks to islam did precious little for exactly the opposite reason. Bottom line is that basic nurtition and opportunities for education are critical variables in moving up the socioeconomic ladder. No matter what caste you belong to.

I am quite sure that *most * well to do Muslims in India or Pakistan are *very * unlikely to have scheduled caste origins. Ponder on this for a while. Caste tends to survive religious conversions, even across many generations. Why? Not because of some rigid belief systems but because of cultural practices and values that survive such conversions.

bottomline: there is nothing wrong with caste as such or retaining one`s caste identity, provided one recognizes modern laws and is sensitive to past follies.

Re: Mr Alam`s article

Mr Alam,

Much of what you say about Dalits in India is true. I, for one, feel sad and ashamed that these atrocities against Dalits continue to happen in this day and age.

GOI sometimes back was trying hard (and eventually succeeding) in not making caste discriminaion in India an international issue. So it was not widely discussed in the convention in South Africa. That is a shame. Caste system as it exists now is an evil and is blocking India`s progress.

However, caste system is not unique to India alone. Caste system occurs whereever you see one group cornering all previliges (spell?)at the expense of other groups. High and mighty upper 1% of US who own private jets and go to excusive clubs where no one else is allowed are modern day brahmins. Such disparities exist everywhere. Where India differs is the systematic exploitation of these downtrodden people. This has a wide social acceptance and has been interpreted as having religious sanction too.

Nothing can be further from the truth. Hindu spritual scriptures do not sanction any kind of exploitation. Brahmins, who wielded immense power consequent to their being the sole interpretor of religious texts, have misused that position to their own advantage. By constantly misinterpreting the texts to their advantage, they have made sure they will always be in demand and will never be questioned. If a boy has to wed a girl, one needs a priest to fix the right time and date (called ``muhurtam`` in Tamil). A baby born in a family needs to be named by a priest. You need a priest when one dies in order to cremate him with proper rites and then on the 10th day for his soul to depart to heaven without hinderance. See, how priests have become indispensable!

It was not always like this. That is why i have a problem with the following statement by the author:

``One of the more confusing mysteries of India is her caste system. The caste system, which has existed already for more than 3000 years, has been developed by the Brahmins (priests) in order to maintain their superiority. Eventually, the caste system became formalised into 4 distinct classes (Varnas).``

Caste has not been developed by brahmins. It was already there and brahmins only exploited it. It is also not unique to India. Every society has these 4 natural divisions: A priestly class (modern day intellectuals, scientists, professionals), Warrior class (modern day rulers, politicians, army brass), Trading class (business men, traders) and the working class. These divisions exist to this day. The difference is in free mobility and exploitation. Today, if i am a waiter in a restaurant in USA and want to be a doctor, i can become one if i have sufficient motivation and strive hard towards my objective. There is a lot of free mobility between professions here. It is this flexibility in educational system that makes US a great place. Such free mobility is happening in Tamil Nadu where low caste are going into professions like Medicine, Engineering etc thereby breaking a barriere of sorts. In other areas, such free mobility between professions is non-existent. So, it is very hard for a blacksmith`s son to be anything but a blacksmith.

Such flexibility and free mobility existed in the distant past (Vedic period) in India. Brahmins were pious, scholarly people who lived modest lives. Unlike the Aristocracy in 12th century Europe, brahmins have never owned a large army, estates etc. They were respected for their scholarly work and interpretation of vedic texts. Everything revolved around spirituality and brahmins came to become a center figure. Their`s was by no means an easy job. Veda Vyas, one of great sages of ancient India (``Bharat``)was born to a fisher woman. He authored the great epic ``Mahabharata`` and compiled together the 4 Vedas that lay scattered over the vast subcontinent. Valmiki who wrote Ramayana was also of low caste. These 2 and many others were accepted as brahmins because of their scholarly works and constant pursuit of spirituality.

Swami Yogananda has given a spiritual interpretation of the caste system as it existed in vedic times. Those who strove after God without any personal gains were considered ``brahmins`` then. Kshatriyas (warrior race)were supposed to protect the subjects they ruled. They were one notch below the former. Vaishyas (traders)though remembered God now and then, were mostly engaged in materialistic pursuits (most of us would qualify for this catergory, i guess). Finally, Shudras (working class)in the past were those who only went after crass material and sensuous pleasures of life, totally forgetting the existence of God.

Yogananda in his classic 2 volume work ``God talks to Arjuna`` elaboates on the above theme in splendid fashion. Hope i have put caste system in its true perspective.

Sridhar

drumz #31

``Lastly, we can possibly have some sort of a Hindu-Muslim dialogue. What do members of one faith really thing about the other faith. Again if anyone believes the other party is going to hell or whatever, then they are damn fools. Enlightened opinions requested-ONLY.``

...... this might come as a surprise to you, but the overwhelming majority of pakistanis know nothing, and let me repeat this - absolutely nothig - about hinduism except for the fact that hindus are idol worshippers who are headed for hell in a hurry .... and, for once, i am not being funny or facetious ..... most pakistanis can tell you all the horrible things about hinduism - casteism, sati, urine drinking, lingum worship, human sacrifice, cannibalism, bhagal mein churi, etc. etc. .....most mock the hindu religion for being weird and silly and do not even consider it to be a ``real`` religion ....

........ so having a dialog with the pakistani muslim crowd on chowk would be a sheer waste of time ...... i am one of the few who knows anything about hinduism since i saw indiana jones and the temple of doom ..... those of us who have not seen this masterpiece are quite ignorant about this great and ancient religion ......

...... so don`t waste your time, and let`s stick with discussing the merits of fine single-malt whiskies ......

re: prem

``Any temple that is locked to the Dalits should be locked for good, or better, should be demolished. No God/god/goddess/Goddess can live in such a place of bigotry.``

sure...although i`ve yet to see one where that happens, but if they exist, make them change or shut them...

but what about that big mosque in mecca or medina or wherever that doesn`t let some human beings in? should that be demolished too?

``That way, the lenders feel social pressure to repay the loans and hence use them productively. ``

I meant ``That way, the borrowers feel social pressure to repay the loans and hence use them productively``

soysauce #52
``There was little else this community could do. They were in a rut, socially and economically. If you wanted to escape that, you sought the anonymity of the big city where the jobs also happened to be. ``

soysauce, the earlier reformers in Kerala realised that control over land was a major factor in exploitation. They demanded(and were eventaully granted) land distribution to the untouchables(as they were called then) as far back in 1900-1915.

tahmed321 #60
``The way to get credit to the poor, while by-passing sticky fingered rich, is through the development of financial intermediary institutions (preferably commercial banks, but closely-monitored ngo`s as well). ``

I heard about a particular ngos experience about this in a village in UP. It maynot be typical for the rest of the country, but underlines the complexities of the issue. Apparently, Govt of India does offer interest-free or low-interest loans to anyone who asks. If I am right, they also encourage `self-help groups` to get together and borrow money. But what actually happens is that everyone avails of the loan, but with no intention of paying back, as in why should I. The bank has to eventually move to recover the money, and the defaulters who have influence with the local functionaries(police,clerks)(mostly from the upper caste) etc go scot free, and the poorer defaulters(mostly from lower caste) land in jail.

NGOs view this government largesse as counter productive and infact encouraging a culture of delinquency and dependence. So in this instance, I heard they are discouraging self-help groups from availing government loans and encouraging them to form cooperatives instead and lend to each other. That way, the lenders feel social pressure to repay the loans and hence use them productively.

Its been pointed out that Grameen Bank microcredit was successful meainly due to the peer pressure among the women not to default on loan repayments.

Any temple that is locked to the Dalits should be locked for good, or better, should be demolished. No God/god/goddess/Goddess can live in such a place of bigotry.

soysauce #52 The way to get credit to the poor, while by-passing sticky fingered rich, is through the development of financial intermediary institutions (preferably commercial banks, but closely-monitored ngo`s as well). This is being done in many countries with considerable success. One of the most memorable things I have seen in my entire life is the new-found look of confidence in the eyes of women borrowers of micro-credit in Bangladesh. These are women from the poorest sections of society, and microcredit has changed their status within the family, and of the family within their social group. This is the battle that Pakistanis and Indians and Bangladeshis and Afghans must fight - the battle to eradicate poverty. And this is the battle where there are everyone is a victor, and everyone is a hero.

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SigaIph235 #21

``Interesting ,CHOWK,is now being actively spied upon by the Hindian brigade of Sulekha.Even before ,i knew there was such article on CHOWK,i read on Sulekha ,that Pakitanis are up to new ``kargil`` Assault on Hinduisnm via the open route of Biggest.....``

So where is spy of lota brigade of mullaism

SigaIph235 #21

``Interesting ,CHOWK,is now being actively spied upon by the Hindian brigade of Sulekha.Even before ,i knew there was such article on CHOWK,i read on Sulekha ,that Pakitanis are up to new ``kargil`` Assault on Hinduisnm via the open route of Biggest.....``

So where is spy of lota brigade of mullaism