The Forgotten Children of God

Narayan,

I did not mean that ancient indians lacked scientific temper, rather it was something different from what we know today.

I do believe that it is possible to `train` onself to attain intutive knowledge. It definitely will not involve a study of the earlier work say in ayrveda, to become an ayurvedic scholar. It could just be a tuning of the mind to receive the intutive knowledge.

I had a colleague, he lived in aurobindo ashram from childhood, where he said the emphasis was on deciplining the mind to learn, what ever one may choose to learn. He was running a restaurant in bangalore, absolutely no formal qualifications. He met one french prof from Ecole polytechnique in france, he finished a P.hd in solar heat transfer in two years, that was his first degree.

This is no attempt to generalise, but only an anecdoal evidence of what could be possible. The central theme is that one has to believe, in this case his parents believed that such a thing is possible, no need for cramming formal qualifications, to let the mind sieze the potential. This person is probaly one of the most pleasant persons I have ver come across, he never forgets any personal details. Last month we met after more than fifteen years, he remebered every detail of all the people we knew together.

Only relevant question is why should one limit the the possibilities. For many it is just make the world manageable, to cut the `crap`.

I can tell you from my personal experience, you are limited only by the possibilities that you give to yourself. Life is a mystery.

narain #199,

``On a different note. I just discovered that I think of you (DRUMZ) as a male, though I have no evidence on which to base this.``

Rest assured narain saab, ONLY males can ever be interested in enlightenment, higher planes of awareness, multi-dimensions, Von Danikan, Sumerians and nazca lines (among other things) !!!



Re: #194

jay,

(1)

``If you can accept this basic premise that ``scintific` knowledge is only one source of knowledge, and there could be others, compatiblae and consistant with a logic of its own, then probably there is scope for some intimations of what is awareness and its structure.``

You may be right...there could be others. But as DRUMZ said, its impossible to prove a negative.

But answer this. DNA, blood, hair, the immune system, the digestive system, sight, hearing, etc, etc. These are all fantastically complicated systems in our bodies. We are only scratching the paint in understanding these. No one to my knowledge ever mentions any `magic` with regard to these. Its always level-headed thinking about how they work.

ONLY with respect to the brain...do we hear of `other world logic`. Why ?

(2)

``I find it hard to believe that aurvedic system of medicene is derived through a scientific process of controlled experiments as we know today. It is more than likely that charaka simply said that for this illness use this, which the modern science if finding to be valid.``

IMO its not hard to imagine a civilization, at least 5000 years old, to have a well developed system of medicine, especially with a deep-rooted educational system for passing on knowledge to successive generations.

Till recently I was among the Indians who are highly sceptical of so-called ancient knowledge. In those earlier times I would have agreed with anyone suggesting that the ancient Indians lacked scientific temper and discipline. All that changed as I read and digested the Surya-Siddhanta.

If this book was written in Greece, modern western historians would be praising it to the skies. As it stands, the english translation of this book was written by an English b@stard (Prof. Whitney) in 1860. The sheer genius of the book shines through even after his best attempts to malign the author(s).

Tycho Brahe (circa 1300) you may know, was the first european to measure the skies accurately for several years with non-telescopic instruments. His priceless data was used by Kepler whose ideas were used by Newton. The measurements in the Surya-Siddhanta compare very well to Tycho`s. Whitney himself says so. And the SS was at least a couple 1000 years old when Tycho was born. What does this mean???

This is only one example (among many many) from the book and my interest is only in astronomy. Thus jay, I would disagree with any suggestion that the ancient Indians lacked scientific temper.

regards both,

Sarwar,

I was surprised to read those figures. If those figures hold, then it would seem that the legitimacy of the multiparty political process is higher (or at least not any less) among SCs than among many other Indian groups.

Be what it may, it is clear that the SCs have taken to electoral politics in India as fish to water. And I say: Go, my friends. There are difficulties in your way, but you seem to be on the right path.

ref: Drumz #192

Dear Drumz,

Just be sure that you don`t throw the baby out with the bath water There is a lot of good in Islam. All that`s needed (as with all other religions,..and actually everything in life) is a little perspective.

-narain

PS: On a different note. I just discovered that I think of you as a male, though I have no evidence on which to base this. Is there something like man-ly writing?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

drumz

stop? this is just the beginning sweetie..waisae i think i have this maternal almost sisterly thing for all ali`s..did u know that ive almost chased the previous ali off chowk..stalking him all over the place...change the name and ill be off your case in two secs..otherwise be prepared..for iyam tha qookie monster

dont let this one go through chowkstaff

Reply DRUMZ # 193

``Also I heard the BINDI (paki dot) was placed on the third eye chakra to allow others to view your aura, correct?``

Story I heard was:

Women have a third eye (in the middle of the forehead) which enables them to perceive reality instead of illusion.

Now, since the nature of the world we live in IS illusion (Maya), this quite obviously won`t do.

So in order to spare the world, Hindu women cover the third eye with a bindi.

Myself, I believe that this is not entirely an altruistic act since Hindu women find themselves dealing quite a bit with subcontinental men, and if they had to do that without illusions...well, you get my drift.

Dunno about the third eye Chakra thing. Possibly related to the Raj (?) chakra - the one next up from the one in your throat.

Kundalini theory? Er...kundalini serpent (?)resides in the chakra at the base of your spine. The idea is to awaken it (note: weed alone will not do this, neither will an apple), so that it rises, chakra to chakra, until it blows your mind out (or head off) and, as they say in the Motherland, mukthi praapth kee jathi hai.

I think. I`m sure somebody can correct me here. Beware New Agey sites purporting to know. They are all written by plain whitegurls of various genders and are satan`s work.

Sadna and Harimau,

Thanks for the information. I appreciate it.

Anybody else knows of a South Asia based religious online publication? It could have any religious orientation, so long as it is published either by people in South Asia or by people in its diaspora.

Thanks again.

Prem

AWARENWSS AND REALITY

anarayan,

Before one can talk a little deeper abou awareness, there are some meta issues about reality. What we normally consider the world out there is a scientific world, that is logical, essentally based on repeatable experiments, and essentally with a cause and effect repeatability.

Then also there is too much emphesis on visual input, and reasoning, and reapeatable transmission of knowledge through some simple procedures, basically not life altering procedures.

The above system does not recognise intutive knowledge. I find it hard to believe that aurvedic system of medicene is derived through a scientific process of controlled experiments as we know today. It is more than likely that charaka simply said that for this illness use this, which the modern science if finding to be valid.

If you can accept this basic premise that ``scintific` knowledge is only one source of knowledge, and there could be others, compatiblae and consistant with a logic of its own, then probably there is scope for some intimations of what is awareness and its structure.

regards

jay

Can someone teach me about the chakras (have a bit of background on em) and the kundalini.

Also I heard the BINDI (paki dot) was placed on the third eye chakra to allow others to view your aura, correct?

Narain: Damn, thats like the 10th time this week Ive missed what was clearly infront of me (a sign?). Co-religionists, I have none (or very few). Ive come to the realization that I disagree with (almost) every major belief of Modern Islam`s. If there was an anti Islamic religion id join in a hurry... BTW: there`s no persuading them, believe me Ive tried. The Quran addresses this issue wisely (In their hearts is a disease).

Turtle: I can`t stand the Matrix after what happened a month back. This idiot of an imam gave this bullsh1t lecture about how Islam is the way outta the ``Matrix.`` That`s blasphemous right there - ruining the movie over a laffable dogma.

Plus I don`t watch them on the regular. Last time was in 95, but Ive seen all the white people movies so I didnt have much of a choice.

Prem: That makes no sense cuz ur brown. Only whitegurls are ugly (its in the gita, near the middle). Im sorry about ur friend, the 786 tripped me cuz only paki muslims follow that. Was ur friend on chowk? I remember temp talking about some dude who got in an accident or something.

Anoop: Eid or ID, doesnt matter cuz the word is foriegn, thus there`s no ``correct`` way to say it. I believe Ramzan is the Urdu way of saying it, Ramadan is the Arabic. Arabization is a big problem in Islam. I know Pakis who say ``Allah hafiz`` instead of ``Khouda hafiz`` Like itll make a God damn difference.

Anny: Okay the compliments are getting a little outta hand, please stop immediately. Oh, I have an idea that`ll piss of alotta Muslims. Im about to introduce a new username. ``ALLAH`` of course. Cept this one will be cool, speak slang, smoke weed etc. He will also taunt everyone with hell threats like the other dude of the same name (no relation).

anaryan: Thanks for getting me thinking man, been weekz... Um, enlightenment by definition can`t be negative. Its hard cuz u put the wieght of the world on your shoulders (dont hide behind no religion). Its harder to achieve if u have a lotta info in ya head (according to buddhists).

Computers are self aware - to a degree. Everything they can be aware of is composed of the data we give them (we create their world)... Cause and effect is evident in the known universe. Look, to build further, we must agree on the existence of an eternal (higher plane-t) universe. If we do, cause and effect may not necessarily be present their cuz C and E require TIME/SPACE to exist as laws. Science is touching on this (they say there may be 12 dimensions out there-different VIBErations). If there is an eternal plane, IT may be the CAUSE of some of our instincts (we may even COME from it...) However, this Cause is not bound to the connotations we give to the word ``cause.`` This `cause` is from a scientifically UNKNOWN plane.

Danikan is a groundbreaker though he bullsh1ts a LOT. Stitchen studied various sumerian epics (where the Bible comes from). He said the sumerians thought the Biblical GODS (elohim) were physical beings from the 12th planet called niburu (makes a revolution every 3600 years). If u look at the ancient egyptian pharoahs and chinese rules, ALL claimed descent from Gods from heaven. The Biblical word for Heaven is ORION, same as the constellation. Heaven is likely a physical place (as I said, IMO the hindu Gods may actually just be beings in brahma more superior to us). Plus I think its the mahabatra (SP?) that mentions ancient flying machines. Lot more to talk about - Pyramids, MARS, nazca lines (The Dogon tribe in Africa which was aware of the cycles of Sirius B - before they had powerful telescops).

GAWD BLESS!!!

Ref Anoop Bhat #: 188

[similarly is it ``Ramadan`` or ``Ramzan``???.... not that it matters, but I`m curious :)))]

It is Ramada Inn.

Ref: AnNy #189

Dear AnNy,

Doubts are not bad at all. What is that Bible quote I want: ``If you start with certainty, you end up in doubt. If you start with doubts, you shall find the truth`` (...or something to that effect. Unfortunately i am no bible expert :) )

-narain

narainsahab:

``WEll said Drumz! I was merely parroting the reply someone gave me when I suggested much as you do, the need to reinterpret the Quran. Good luck in persuading more of your co-religionists to accept your assertion``

having said what he has in a manner most non co-religionists on chowk will find it hard to emulate (reference not to repeated use of mufukkas but logic and sincerity), he seems to have sowed an annoying seed of doubt in quite a few minds :( i`d like to beat him up

DRUMZ:

Sick at Eid time? Tough luck matey.... if those three ``Indian`` movies were Lagaan, Dil Chchta Hai and Bollywood Calling, you`d have increased your chances at recovery..... really, speaking as a true-blue Bollywood hater.

Nice to know that sickness or health doesn`t affect chowkies from attending.... I`m a relatively new convert but still come thirsting for a sip every two hours, esp. responses to my own article :))).... really feels good, this interaction.

Well.. Christmas`s coming up.... America shall rejoice... I envy them their festivals.. Christians and Muslims.... us poor Hindus have ten million and not ONE comes close to being enjoyable... well, I suppose Dussehra is fun what with nubile nymphets dancing all night, but Diwali is one long noisefest and Holi, one psuedo-carnal violent orgy..... long for a simple Id or Christmas..... sigh

BTW, is it ``Eid`` or ``Id``.... I always thot it was ``Id``..... nowadays the Arabic looking spelling seems to have taken over.... similarly is it ``Ramadan`` or ``Ramzan``???.... not that it matters, but I`m curious :)))

Eid Mubarak, all ye across the border. And 15% of those on this side too :))

Re: DRUMZ #181

DRUMZ,

(1)

``Being sick is boring as hell. I jus watched 3 Indian movies...``

Fighting pain with more pain...worth a try!

(2)

``Its like when someone says ``my Higher self.`` Well to whom does the higher self belong? The paradox is obvious, we cannot logically get around it...``

Don`t remember where I read it...enlightenment is a losing, not a gaining.

(3)

``I understand your theory of layers, but IMO it gives the illusion that it`s explained something when it hasnt. Would u agree that we know very little about the deeper layers? Well how can we not say that they are receptive to instinctual stimuli (I know, ya cant prove a negative, lol). I agree with your assessment of the layers and how their interactions `cook up answers` in our subconscious. However, we really dont have any factual basis for saying the deeper layer doesnt do `X.```

Right you are. We dont have any factual basis for saying the deeper layer doesnt do `X`.

My approach was to point out that the brain works on cause-effect, its a mechanical thing. No one has disproved this so far. For everything it does, every thought, every feeling that arises...there`s a reason. We may reasonably be assured that ALL its layers are controled by cause-effect...till someone proves otherwise.

Jay wrote about `awareness`. He said living things are aware of themselves while machines are not. But I proved that modern day networked computers are good examples of machines that are `aware`. I was hoping he would continue because thats not the end. Humans create computers...intelligence creates intelligence...nothing surpising there. But how did the first intelligence or awareness in the universe come about ???

(4)

``Ever heard of zacariah Stitchen or Von Danikan?``

Read Von Daniken a long time ago (Chariots of the Gods ??). Don`t know about Stitchen.

best wishes for early recovery,

DRUMZ #181, `` I jus watched 3 Indian movies``

no wonder you`re not getting any better. i`d rather watch the Matrix three times in a row than three lousy Indian movies. what the hell were you thinking bro.

DRUMZ # 181

I have always found all those representations a bit hard to figure out :)

I am willing to let God be represented in any form so long as I myself am not required to have a nose like that. I mean, I am ugly, and my nose is uglier, but nowhere near THAT ugly!

(due apologies to all my Hindu brothers and sisters who might be quick to take offense...please don`t...and if you do, well too bad for ya, `coz I am gonna go pray to Lord Ganesh to give you some buddhi).

786? Well, for me, they are a sign of my respect and appreciation for the cultural heritage of someone with whom I used to correspond until quite recently. I learnt a lot from that person, so have decided to keep that symbol as a permanent part of my identity.

saxena:

``.let me guess, you`re against mouthwash...and medicines with alcohol too...``

mouthwash is overrated bhaisaxena...i chew on fresh daisies and tube roses first thing every morning..very flowery breathe all day

:)

ref: Drumz #181

WEll said Drumz! I was merely parroting the reply someone gave me when I suggested much as you do, the need to reinterpret the Quran. Good luck in persuading more of your co-religionists to accept your assertion.

-narain

#: 179

RSaxena

re: Anny

{just smiled through very gritted teeth and said NO thank you i do NOT want some of that alcohol infested chocolate cake}

..let me guess, you`re against mouthwash...and medicines with alcohol too...



Rsaxenna

Besides there are many things less bitter & sweeter smelling than non moisturizing shrivelling skin, goose pimple giving harsh toxic chemical... alcohol.

Being sick is boring as hell. I jus watched 3 Indian movies (the same mufukkas were in ALL the movies...)

Prem: I used to have a bunch of sites but everything was deleted by temp. And what does the 786 symbolize on your mail? Your moms theory was really helpful, for real. It doesnt explain the elephant God (unless the devotee has one messed up nose) but its a start.

Narain: That would be true if we knew what the hell Muhammed really said. Call me crazy but ``authentic`` is NOT the word Id use to describe some 200 year old oral transmission club. Its never black and white. It takes courage to interpret religion with reason, the masses are just too scared/ignorant..

Prankaj: Read the celestine prophecy. It presents a good theory (we were once full of the Energy, then we fell). We lost part of the Energy, so everything we do is an attempt to regain it. (look at discussions. If one tries to show off, he is in effect taking some of the energy - in the form of praise/esteem - from someone else and collecting it within). All human interactions involve a transfer of energy in millions of subtle ways - all because we don`t know how to channel the energy from within. We need material things to gain energy via social status etc... Your post was quite accurate and agreeable, thanks for sharing!

Anaryan: Good answer, u got me thinking. Its like when someone says ``my Higher self.`` Well to whom does the higher self belong? The paradox is obvious, we cannot logically get around it (logic is based on finite rules, the realization IS of eternal origin). Now If we agree that everything is one, we must appeal to the Lowest Common Denominator in ALL things, correct?

The bible/Greeks/Egyptians said that ``first there was the word/logos.`` Well what is a word? Vibrations, correct? Isnt everything vibrating - from the atom to the supernova? Are we all not vibrations - energy? I believe this relieves us of the duality paradox, correct?

I understand your theory of layers, but IMO it gives the illusion that it`s explained something when it hasnt. Would u agree that we know very little about the deeper layers? Well how can we not say that they are receptive to instinctual stimuli (I know, ya cant prove a negative, lol). I agree with your assessment of the layers and how their interactions `cook up answers` in our subconscious. However, we really dont have any factual basis for saying the deeper layer doesnt do `X.`

Now Siva is older then Brahma? Im confused, I thought Brahma was THE man? Ever heard of zacariah Stitchen or Von Danikan?

PEACE!!!!!!

Re #178:

Thus spoke Urstruly …once again … like a complete moron …

Your fanaticism has turned you into a complete jackass … and more. It has also made you blind as a bat. There is no reference to “Ahmadi dogma” in my post #174. Rather my post highlights the absurdities of your dogma. As I had earlier pointed out, such fairy-tale dogmas make for a fairy-tale religion, which is fit only for dumb-wits like you.

I know well that you indeed are a sub-intelligent, stupid, jerk. You do not have to confirm this by continuously making idiotic comments.

Your nose is bleeding, you’ve got a black eye … and your legs are trembling. You’ve taken quite a beating here … just looking at you makes me feel sorry. Go home and lick your wounds now. Ask your mother to give you a hug. You badly need one.

Asad

re: Anny

{just smiled through very gritted teeth and said NO thank you i do NOT want some of that alcohol infested chocolate cake}

..let me guess, you`re against mouthwash...and medicines with alcohol too...

Sattar # 174

I am glad to see that you have finally understood the message perfectly and started talking in terms of ``your dogma vs. my dogma``, ``your religion vs. my religion`` and ``my reasons are better than yours``. This is a good start. Spread the word among your people. And that is what we (Muslims) wanted all along-dair ayad darust ayad.

Thank you.

Prem #172
You could try religion.samachar.com. It has links to internet resources about many religions, there may be links to links to magazines. Apparently there is an Electronic Journal of Vedic Studies, but I am told this is academic not religious.
TOI has sections Sacred Space and Speaking Tree? under Editorial. The Hindu has a Religion section under Miscellaneous. I think its mostly Hinduism but it covers other religions as well esp around festival time.

Ref Prem #: 172

[Could Chowkies point me toward some South Asian (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Nepali, Sri Lankan) religious magazines (or sections of magazines) published online?]

Not from South Asia but from North America, by the Saiva Siddhanta Church, a Hindu church run by Westerners:

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/

The founder of this church passed away about a month back. He had travelled widely in Sri Lanka and southern India, became a Hindu monk and has built a temple at Kauai in Hawaii.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/

AUTHORS PROTEST HISTORY SNIPS



FROM OUR SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT New Delhi, Dec. 1: The entire panel of historians routinely reviled by the Sangh parivar and the National Council for Educational Research and Training (NCERT), barring Bipan Chandra, today held a news conference and slammed the deletions from history textbooks authored by them.

For the first time since the recent acrimony over history textbooks peaked, the “much maligned” spoke against the “Talibanisation” of education. “It is not a confrontation between the Right and the Left. It is a confrontation between professional historians, politicians and administrators,” said Romila Thapar.

The NCERT has applied the scissors to her textbook on ancient India — a book that has been taught in schools all over India since 1966. Textbooks by R.S. Sharma, Satish Chandra, Arjun Dev and Indira Dev met much the same fate.

The historians were not only enraged at the attempts to politicise and saffronise history but also at the violation of the authors’ fundamental right.

The historians have suddenly found themselves in the dock for their interpretations — Thapar for having suggested that the Aryans could have come from outside India, Chandra for pointing to a conflict other than religious between Teg Bahadur and the Mughals, and Sharma for underlining the varna system.

“History has become a precise and analytical discipline. People do not realise that historians are trained individuals. The subject cannot be reduced to just an opinion of some individuals,” Thapar said.

Students should be exposed to multiple theories and sources, not just from religious texts but also other disciplines like archaeology, the panel said. The policymakers are bent on tailoring history to suit a particular ideology, it added.

The NCERT’s fiat to the Central Board of Secondary Education (CBSE) to trim portions from history textbooks is an infringement on the rights of authors, the historians argued.

“Deleting portions from the existing textbooks is a contravention of copyright. In the agreement drawn up with the NCERT, it was clear that no changes in the textbooks will be made without the authors’ permission,” said Thapar.

Arjun Dev, who retired from the NCERT after a 36-year association and after heading its history department, said: “The NCERT director was lying when he said the copyright of changing a textbook rests with the organisation and not the authors.”

Chandra, who has perhaps received maximum brickbats — for “degrading” Guru Teg Bahadur — said: “The basic discipline of history is to bring to the notice of the students multiple facts and teach them to think analytically.”

Chandra said all he had done was to suggest that the conflict between Tegh Bahadur and the Mughals was not solely on religious grounds. “There were personal, social and economic conflicts as well,” he said.

Urstruly Sahib (several idiotic posts):

You defend finality of “prophethood” as dogma, while you also defend the “two thousand year old flying Messiah …” as dogma. This shows how absurd and stupid your “dogmas” are … very fitting for your equally stupid personality …

Your dogma makes for a religion fit for idiots and fools. On the other hand, Ahmadi-Muslims have rational reasons and scripture to support their views. Try it … if you dare ... you’ll be speechless.

In the name of honesty, you should call Ahmadi-Islam as “Deen-e-Fitrat”, and your Islam as an amalgam of fairy tales.

So, in the light of my post #127 … tell Radha … why should she accept your Islam … and not Ahmadi-Islam … [merely saying Ahmadi-Muslims are kaffir is a fool’s argument … ]

Also tell her what you’ll do to her in the name of Islam if she becomes an Ahmadi-Muslim, recites Quran, and is caught saying “bismillah” in public …

An intelligent response, if you have one, will be appreciated, although, from you, silence is fully expected … (you probably regret prodding me with your “prophethood” comment …but you asked for it … you jackass!)



Asad

Could Chowkies point me toward some South Asian (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Nepali, Sri Lankan) religious magazines (or sections of magazines) published online?

I know of only one - the News of the Jang Group publishes a weekly section called Iqra.

Any others?

Thanks in advance.

You may also email me, if you want, at eklavya786@hotmail.com

Could Chowkies point me toward some South Asian (Indian, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Nepali, Sri Lankan) religious magazines (or sections of magazines) published online?

I know of only one - the News of the Jang Group publishes a weekly section called Iqra.

Any others?

Thanks in advance.

You may also email me, if you want, at eklavya786@hotmail.com

SPM # 163

Thank you. I am blessed indeed in the mother I have, though I guess that is a universally shared sentiment about mothers.

Regards.

Prem

soyee # 123

nope.:).i just smiled through very gritted teeth and said NO thank you i do NOT want some of that alcohol infested chocolate cake

Urstruly #161
``Purusha Sukta of the Rig Veda says that the four fold division of society into Brahmins (priests), Kshatriyas (warriors), Vaishyas (cultivators) and Shudras (menial servants) has been created by primeval man `Purusha`. From Purusha`s brain have emerged the Brahmins, from his forearms have emerged the kshatriyas from his abdomen have emerged the Vaishyas and from his feet have emerged the Shudras``

btw, its verse 12 of 16 verses and it goes
``from the mouth [of Purusha] came brahmins, from his arms were kshatriyas made, from his thighs came the vaisyas, his feet gave birth to Shudras.

The next verses say
``The moon was born from his mind, from his eye the Sun was formed. Indra and Agni came from his mouth, and from his vital breath the Wind was born.
The space unfolds from his navel, the sky well formed from his head, his feet, the earth, from his ears the Quarters of the sky. Thus they thought up all the worlds``

Urstruly #161

`` Now before I start my rebuttal I must warn all Hindus not to underestimate me and play games with me as Sadhna did, I know more about Hinduism than an average Hindu.``

I don`t know how it is where you come from, but where I come from, you actually have to show your knowledge not simply make assertions about it.

You donot also seem to apply your mind much.

``Let us assume that it is true then don?t you see the point [2] i.e. the dogma of Reincarnation implodes and collapses along with all the social structure of the Hindu Civilization.``

Urstruly, now why does 4:13 implode reincarnation? can you explain?

``Now let us further this argument by assuming that [2] is correct then either it means that although Lord Krishna was not specific about the caste by virtue of birth but his intended message was as such OR what Lord Krishna is saying is untrue. So in corollary [1] and two are mutually exclusive. ``

Again why?

``Whereas Manu suggests a complete isolation and segregation of the lowest caste by force-by pouring molten lead into the ears of Shudras who happen to overheard the Ashloks (holy verses) chanted by Brahmins. ``

Why is Manu considered the only Hindu authority by you(and most opponents of Hinduism)? Is it because you guys cannot quote any one else from the huge collection of Hindu scripture, Vedas, Upanishads(do you know what they are?). Where does it say we need to listen to Manu and Manusmriti?

``Gandhi on the other hand is more conniving and articulate and maintains the status quo of segregation by ``inventing`` the concept of ``Harijan````

If he called them their traditional names, you would have said he is oppressing them. I mean if I say African American I`m in trouble if I say nigger I am in trouble. btw are you for affirmative action or not?

Why are `genocidal` invaders on your brain, how are they relevant here? Been spending too much time with the newspapers have you?

``From Purusha`s brain have emerged the Brahmins, from his forearms have emerged the kshatriyas from his abdomen have emerged the Vaishyas and from his feet have emerged the Shudras``

Urstruly, this may be an alien concept to you, but is it so difficult to understand the concept of having respect for every part of one`s body or Purusha`s body? If in your culture you choose to put a negative connotation on some part of the body and view Hindu mythology and philosophy from that viewpoint, what can I do?

btw, here are more from the Gita. Your ignoring every quote from the Gita I put up is begining to look rather funny and desperate.

9:29
I am equally disposed to all living entities; there is neither friend nor foe to Me; but those who with loving sentiments render devotional service unto me, such persons are in Me and I am in them.

9:32
O Arjuna, even those who may be born from the wombs of degraded women, vaisyas and shudras, if they take full shelter of Me, they also reach the supreme goal.


12:3,4
But those who worship the indescribable, all-pervading inconveivable, immutable, constant, eternal, impersonal absolute devoid of perceptible form and attributes; completely controlling all the senses with spiritual intelligence, equally disposed to everything and dedicated to the welfare of all living entities; they certainly also achieve Me``.


``Don?t you realize that whenever any Radha ticks off the box that identifies herself as a Dalit in a job or educational institution`s application form she sells her soul for 22% of her share to the Devil?``

This is the problem with lifting stuff from anti-Hindu websites, they donot care to be objective and lead to your exposing your ignorance.

Noone forces her to tick off a box identifying herself as a Dalit or anythign else. If she doesnot want to avail the quota, absolutely nothing stops her from getting a seat/job under the general quota, noone will know or ask.

If she wants to avail the Dalit quota, she has to submit a certificate saying she is eligible as a Dalit. The Indian government doesnot want to know who you are and what is your religion or caste unless you want to tell it.

You are perhaps confusing optional quotas with the Pakistani system of government needing to know who is Muslim and nonMuslim( I am guessing, maybe they need this for separate electorates and things and to hear your declaration that you disown Ahmedis as Muslims). Glad you make it clear to Radha, donot want her to wander into the wrong mosque.

Urstruly, couldn`t you locate the original Soli Sorabjee statement? Some guy referring to a phrase and ranting about something else doesnot do it. The same guy refers to the same statement elsewhere like this
http://wcar.alrc.net/mainfile.php/For+the+affirmative/10/

`` India`s Attorney General, Soli Sorabjee, in a Times of India article entitled Racism, Name Changing & Toilets, has revealed the reason, which may have turned Mahatma Ghandi in his grave. Says the Attorney General ``None of this capitalist obscene toilet opulence for socialist India. We will rest content with clean functioning toilets. Is this an Utopian fancy?````

You have to read an article and UNDERSTAND it before posting it, or you risk disproving your point yourself by accident.

And if you want to win converts you have to work harder. Start with google.

btw, what does Kashmir have to do with any of this? Do you blame having to go to the bathroom also on the `murder` of Kashmiris? I sympathise with your predicament.

Zafar #159 Much obliged. Regards.

re: Drumz #160

``Why not just say that Islam is not perfect?``

You cannot becoz Islam is allegedly the final and authoritative word of God. That is its USP (unique selling proposition). To say that Islam is not perfect is therefore either to say that God didn`t get it right, whereas we humans somehow did (impossible!). Or alternatively to say that the Prophet (Pbuh) was not speaking the complete truth when he said that he was passing on only the word of God. And if he was wrong about somethings, then why not others? Any of the above constitutes blasphemy. Thus Islam must be perfect, or it is false. There is no option of picking and choosing.

-narain

A quick note on caste and Hinduism,

There is no doubt the caste system has been, and continues to be, the bane of Hinduism. I won`t get into that. I have discussed that many times before.

But a Hindu is NOT required to blindly accept any crap written in any old books. He or she is free to choose that which will guide him or her in meeting the needs of modern human living, working toward the fulfilment of certain fundamental principles, or Dharma (I briefly touched upon those once before- like minimizing pain to others, growing and sustaining prakriti etc.)

To guide ME in matters of caste, I keep before me this little anecdote in the life of Shankar - the greatest advaita philosopher India has produced. For many Hindus, he is the ultimate in `non-divine` religious authority.

One day, in the city of Kashi, Shankara and his disciples were returning from their daily bath in the river Ganges. On the way, they met a Chaandala (outcast) approaching them from the opposite direction.

Since the path was narrow, Shankara called out for the Chaandala to move aside so they might pass without touching him.

The Chaandala replied, “What shall I move? Shall I move my body which is made of the same earthly elements we all share? Or, should I move my soul which is part of the same all-pervading consciousness to which your soul belongs?”

It is said that at that moment, Shankara had the vision of the Truth. He suddenly grasped the reality of One in all and all in One. He fell at the Shudra`s feet, telling his disciples, “He is indeed my guru, regardless of his birth.”

...``chandalostu dvijostu gururityesha manisha

mama``....

What was true for Shankara is true for me. Not because I will blindly follow him in every instance. I do not lead Shankara`s life nor do I want to. But because his insight makes sense to me, it enables me to live with my fellow human beings in peace and honor.

Anything that supports untouchability, that promotes discrimination, that tells me that I can not touch this or that person, that tells me that I can not marry this woman or that, or that tells some other woman that they can not marry me, is a bunch of sh1t. The sooner we get rid of that stinky sh1t, the sooner we will move beyond being mere animals.

Best regards and good night.

Harpreet # 154

Truly, that is one of the most disheartening things - even AFTER people are educated, even after they read a thousand books, they find it so damn hard to throw away the deadwood of the past. They become mentally enslaved to that deadwood, and they become physically enslaved to it.

Most people can not think differently than their parents and their grandparents did. There are people even today who believe that it is their RELIGIOUS duty to maintain distinctions, to discriminate.

Those who can think are scared out of their wits, lest anyone find out they are different. Lest society punish them for their questioning of dogma. So even when they see the absurdity and fragility of the ropes tied around them, they are too frightened to break out. Too scared even when all the support infrastructure is available to facilitate their move.

Change is slow. For a longish time, most of us will have to walk a very very lonely road.

Prem

“She said, ``beta, it doesn`t matter how we worship God. God is big enough to understand and accept the devotion of all”

…wise woman, your ma…

Urstruly (#145):

Now that you can no longer explain your absurd Islam without sounding like a blithering, low IQ, idiot, you are distancing yourself from the discussion. Sure … I understand how tormented you must be after being disgraced by a “kaffir Ahmadi”, who can explain Islam better than you can.

In a very collected manner you exclaimed to have used the “prophethood” comment to get me to respond. Now that I have responded and shown that your Islam is a loosely knit episode of stupid, sub-intelligent, fairy tales, you are at a loss …

So far you have had nothing intelligent to say. Give it up man … you are becoming desperate, while trying to maintain a relaxed front. Clearly your Islam, with these fairy tales, is on its way to becoming “Hinduism” of tomorrow … and you are not able to show otherwise …

Asad

THE TOILET ARRANGEMENT

Although this post is addressed to Sadhna my actual audience is still Radha and I will still insist on my case that the only way out of the misery that she and her nation suffers is by only converting to a new dogma-a paradigm shift. My case is still based on the contention that the dogma cannot be ``improved``, ``ignored``, and its effect cannot be altered by any means including legislation. And especially when those Hindu who still insist that it can be done, present a case which is nothing but a plethora of contradictions. Lets see. Here Sadna`s case is based on three contentions:

[1] ``Krishna in the Gita didnot talk of divisions BY BIRTH, so he doesnot caste which is division by birth.``

[2] Her second contention is about Reincarnation, she says`` About birth, he (Lord Krishna) and others do talk elsewhere of the sum total of inclinations(samskaras) and karma influencing the circumstances of your next birth,`` but then she continues ``how can A tell B, ``I am going to persecute you and oppress you(finally every straitjacket is oppression) because of your past sins. If you happen to have children born to you during this misery I impose on you, well they deserve it too, thats because they did bad things in their past life too``

[3] Her third contention is about Indian Constiution. She says ``Dalits CANNOT be told as you imply, to shut up and bear it due to reincarnation and past sins, either under the auspices of Hinduism or under the auspices of the Indian Constitution.``

Now before I start my rebuttal I must warn all Hindus not to underestimate me and play games with me as Sadhna did, I know more about Hinduism than an average Hindu.

Now lets discuss point [1] first. It is true that the words of Lord Krishna in the verse 4-13 do not specify that caste is by virtue of birth. Let us assume that it is true then don’t you see the point [2] i.e. the dogma of Reincarnation implodes and collapses along with all the social structure of the Hindu Civilization. Now let us further this argument by assuming that [2] is correct then either it means that although Lord Krishna was not specific about the caste by virtue of birth but his intended message was as such OR what Lord Krishna is saying is untrue. So in corollary [1] and two are mutually exclusive.

OR

It also means that [1] and [2] actually supplement each other. And that is exactly the message Hindu scholars have understood and conveyed throughout the centuries-from Manu to Gandhi. Whereas Manu suggests a complete isolation and segregation of the lowest caste by force-by pouring molten lead into the ears of Shudras who happen to overheard the Ashloks (holy verses) chanted by Brahmins. Gandhi on the other hand is more conniving and articulate and maintains the status quo of segregation by ``inventing`` the concept of ``Harijan``. The interpretation of segregation by virtue of birth is not new-it wasn`t invented to counter the influence of ``invading genocidal`` Muslims or English rulers who used it is a tool of divide-and-rule, it is as old as Buddha and even long before him when famous Chinese traveler Havensang and Fahyan mention casteism in their travelogues. In the later years other travelers like Albairuni, Ibn-e-Batuta, and Marco polo also mention the existence of castes and untouchability.

And as far as the contention in [2] and [3] i.e. `` how can A (upper class) tell B (lower class)`` is concerned, I regret to say that it is nothing but Hindu dogma that dictates the roles of upper class viz a viz lower class. This dogma is dictated by Hindu holy scriptures where Purusha Sukta of the Rig Veda says that the four fold division of society into Brahmins (priests), Kshatriyas (warriors), Vaishyas (cultivators) and Shudras (menial servants) has been created by primeval man `Purusha`. From Purusha`s brain have emerged the Brahmins, from his forearms have emerged the kshatriyas from his abdomen have emerged the Vaishyas and from his feet have emerged the Shudras. And according to the Hindu Shastras (religious texts) have a different explanation to offer as per the Holy scriptures i.e. a Brahmin is a person who has mastered the essence of Brahma (Universe). ` Brahma Janayate Iti Brahamana`. So in layman terms it is the ``brain`` (brahmin) of this body (that is Hindu social structure) who has the authority to tell lower class (limbs of the body) what to do. Anthropologically speaking this is the most perfect self perpetuating and self-preserving system ever seen in the universe-it keeps Kashtrias and Veshas in line with whatever Brahmin indoctrinates because of the fear that they might end up being Shudra; and shudras are kept in line by promises of a life of the one of the three classes in next incarnation.
Let us see [3] i.e. Indian Constitution. Nothing irks me more than the mention of the phrase ``Indian Constitution``. First of all the Indian constitution is secular which means whatever you do religiously in your private personal life is your business-government has no business interfering with religion and vice versa- this brings back my original questions in my previous post as to how you legislate the morality of people when you get the morality out of the constitution. This renders a secular constitution as a Devil`s Contract. Don’t you realize that whenever any Radha ticks off the box that identifies herself as a Dalit in a job or educational institution`s application form she sells her soul for 22% of her share to the Devil? Her segregated status as a Dalit gets protection i.e. she is forced or cajoled to remain in that class? And what is Indian Constitution? It gives the right of murder to the ``majority`` to kill 70,000 Kashmiris without impunity, without remorse? It looks like a liscence to kill to me. And how much Brahmin Class give a damn to Constitution as far as the rights of Dalits is concerned is evident from India’s Attorney General Soli J. Sorabjee`s views about whole concept of Casteism in India, who wrote about his interest in keeping his toilet the way he wants.

Read and weep

http://wcar.alrc.net/mainfile.php/For+the+affirmative/13/


My Dear Sister Radha!

So now you see that the dogma never changes. It has to be replaced by a new dogma if the older one does not serve the purpose, pushes you into a tight corner and condemns you to eternal damnation. Neither ``reform`` in Hinduism nor Indian secular constitution helps you. And I regret to say that by selling your soul for the 22% quota you are being an accomplice to the crime that is being committed against your nation under the name of religious dogma and constitutional protection. And if you are following this thread you must have figured out the point I was trying to prove to you as mentioned in # 132. Let me explain: My friend Sattar belongs to the Ahmadia religion which came into being by changing the basic Islamic dogma that Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) is the last messenger of God. So they changed the dogma and they get out of the fold of Islam and now they call their religion Ahmadia. This gave them a new paradigm of thinking which he and his people think is better than what they already had. I Whom am I to differ with them. Similarly, unless you replace your dogma you and your nation will never be out of the predicament you are in since the time unknown.

It is so ironic that the pathway that always leads you to a new dogma is paved by reason. Sometime the reason is oppression, sometimes economic, sometime self preservation, and sometime it is just to free your soul from the burden of the centuries. Islam is the only religion in the whole wide world that gives the freedom to your soul-once you bow your head in front of one God, Allah, you don’t need to bow your head in front of no body no body. I will urge you to observe the Muslim social structure in England and also in India and if possible in any Islamic country of your choice and experience the paradigm shift. Please encourage the broken, huddled, tired, oppressed, and forsaken people of your nation to come see the light. Every single day that you spend willingly under oppression is a crime against you in which nobody else but you are the accomplice.

Umer: Sure. Lets look at womens rights. Hadis say u can have four wives, the quran says men are superior and u can beat women etc...

Any person with common sense knows that such distinctions of superiority are spiritually WRONG. So what do apologists do? ``It says u can beat them with a feather!`` Or they cloud the issue by describing all the rights Islam brought to women (which is true... But its also a magicians tactic - Focus on the left hand as i pull something outta my right pocket...)

Why not just say that Islam is not perfect, societies change, we DONT need to accept Arabic standards for everything etc etc... Such are not the words of cowards.

What about minority rights (Apologists will defend he fact that minorities must pay jizya, WHY?). Religious intolerance-Muhammed broke 360 Idols. Slavery. Fear mongering with threats of hell fire etc...

The so called paradigm shift should distance itself from making Islam more ``moderate.`` That involves a great deal of cognitive dissonance as Muslims will convince themselvs that sexism etc were divinely prescribed - but that they dont have to be followed today.

WHY? Why not just say that sexism is wrong. Islam is wrong in that respect. What so hard about that? Its cuz Muslims have made Islam equal with Allah (given it absolute attributes). Islam is only a car that takes u to Allah`s crib.

...trees for the forest, streams for the ocean...

Reply Tahmed # 156

``afar #149 ``kombdi``??? Is ka kya matlab hai, bhai sahib? In what language, what region is it used?``

Kombdi is Marathi for chicken. Used in similar manner to goose in English, as in ``you silly goose``.

Salaams

Zafar

Folks may also want to read :

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/s_es/s_es_hobso_caste_frameset.htm

Folks may want to read Madhu Kishwar at :

http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_kishw_mythic_frameset.htm

afar #149 ``kombdi``??? Is ka kya matlab hai, bhai sahib? In what language, what region is it used?

Thank you for the education.

Thanks to pankaj, Jay, anAryan, prem, others... Ill reply soon...

Ladies and gentlemen: a MUSLIM actually has the AUDACITY to tell Sadna THIS:

``Then why not start the good housekeeping from your home?``

That she has the good will to not say the following DOESNT mean ....

1. That American DOGS don`t have more rights then Muslim women.

2. That Islam allows SLAVES. The vast majority of the slaves on earth today are owned by SO CALLED Muslims in Sudan.

These sanctions are prescribed in the Holy QURAN as DIVINELY revealed by the archangel Jibrael to Muhammed, the prophet of Islam.

WHO`S HOME?!?!?!

Here is a good article:

[The architects of the Indian Republic hoped that, as secular ethos took roots, democratic institutions spread and a secular-scientific outlook consolidated itself, the Indian society would outgrow the evil of caste system. They simply underestimated the die-hard durability of a pseudo-religious institution primed by a pro-status quo worldview. Because of this, they did not launch an all-out war against caste. They assumed it would wither away in course of time and die a natural death.]

http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/2001121300851300.htm

Ref Bhardwaj #: 148

[Had India moved in the Buddhist direction in terms of religion at the time of the anti-British struggle, India would have been one of the most advanced nations in the world. We would have abolished Brahminism in all spheres of life by now. The Dalits alone have taken to that patth....argues indian political pundit

Spiritual Democracy



KANCHA ILAIAH

crap..crap...crap...crap...]

This is the idiot who said that India discriminates against buffaloes because buffaloes are black whereas cows are not.

Stop grasping at straws.

Just defame Hinduism.

Dear Drumz,

``1. They Can`t face the fact that they have a direct relationship to God, enabling them to clearly see that some of their so called revelations (hadis, sharia, Quran) are nonsense.

2. To avoid this descrepency they try to change Islam. It`s good if one uses reason to interpret scripture. However, Muslim apologists are at often times COWARDS who cant deal with the fact that islam is inherently sexist-among other things. Instead of being real men/women and admitting that Islam isnt perfect, theyll convince themselves that it is.``

Please elaborate, expand and give examples...

Thank you in advance,

Umer Murtaza

Urstruly and whoever.

Is your problem with the `dogma` of reincarnation binding people to their circumstances?

Actually I addressed this in my post #116, but.., firstly within the scope of traditional Hindu philosophy(practice is another matter) and then under the Indian Constitution(practice is another matter).

As everyone ought to know by now, the concept of reincarnation comes from the concept of an eternal soul. Namely every living thing has a soul which is a part of the Ultimate, but thinks of itself as separate until self-realization that its part of the eternal whole. I think Buddhism just subscribes to the eternal soul and no Ultimate.

The quotes of the Gita show what is meant by realising the Ultimate, namely seeing the underlying unity not only of all humans but all living things.

The theory goes that every living thing though having the same core of the Ultimate/Absolute lives out the compulsions of its nature, except humans who have the power and discrimation to overcome the compulsion of nature and circumstance.

Coming to castes.
Firstly, Krishna in the Gita didnot talk of divisions BY BIRTH, so he doesnot caste which is division by birth.

About birth, he and others do talk elsewhere of the sum total of inclinations(samskaras) and karma influencing the circumstances of your next birth, namely not surprisingly Krishna and other Hindu philosophers do indeed subscribe to the concept of reincarnation and the eternal soul in every living thing.

Suppose we take the concept of eternal soul and reincarnation to be true as a working hypothesis, oppression or impositions of rigid divisions in the name of caste(ie birth) is still not justified, in my view.

Namely, how can A tell B, ``I am going to persecute you and oppress you(finally every straitjacket is oppression) because of your past sins. If you happen to have children born to you during this misery I impose on you, well they deserve it too, thats because they did bad things in their past life too``.

Given the eternal soul and the equality of all humans in the final analysis, who is A to decide who deserves misery and who doesnot based on their birth ? Its clear to me at least, A does so(and did so) because he had the power to do so, but nothing in Hindu scriptures gives A the authority to decide who deserves what for their past sins if any.

If B has a core of the Absolute and doesnot have to live under compulsion of nature and circumstance, than how can another human A force him or take it on himself to impose adverse unchanging circumstances on him, especially when A is told in the scriptures (which unfortunately only he could read) that he should see no difference between himself A and B and C, D, E, much less persecute them or impose his will on them?

Now looking at it with respect to the Indian Constitution which says religious matters arenot matters to be arbitrated by the Constitution and moreover A and B are equal citizens.

Hence, religious belief is decreed to be a private matter for Hindu Indians, reincarnation and caste divisions are unrecognized by the Indian Constitution. Caste discimination is illegal under the Indian Cosntitution except in identification of communities for affirmative action.

What does this mean as a Hindu believing in reincarnation? Well, if A or B believe in reincarnation, thats their private business, but A cannot by law impose what his sense of his better karma reward(namely being born in a higher caste) on B, nor does B by law of the land have buy into the `upper/lower caste due to past sins` crap expounded by A, even if both believe in reincarnation.

So Dalits CANNOT be told as you imply, to shut up and bear it due to reincarnation and past sins, either under the auspices of Hinduism or under the auspices of the Indian Constitution.

Now due to rigid social convention, when B finds it hard going to convince A to cut the crap, B sometimes takes the choice of conversion to another religion, and buying out of the whole thing.

Since social relations in India suffer from rigid social tradition not rigid religious theology, in many situations(in India there is always a whole variety of situations) conversion is not needed, and in many other situations, conversion doesnot help.

Zafar #149
`` But did you say please?

If you were less rude their responses might be less resoundingly absent.``

Zafar, itna hi nahin. Don`t look now, but #144 sounds very much like passing unqualified remarks regarding Islamic dogma. Waqt waqt ki baath hai yaani, # # ki bath hai.

Re Hindu men, well if memory serves me right, mahaashay used to make unqualifed references to yours truly as a man. matlab nikal gayaa hai tho pehchaanthe nahin :)

Reply Urstruly # 144

“hunh??? BTW I asked for Hindu men and not the aadhaa Hindu man.”

But did you say please?

If you were less rude their responses might be less resoundingly absent.

I repeat: kombdi, thum ithna stupid kay ko hai?

Had India moved in the Buddhist direction in terms of religion at the time of the anti-British struggle, India would have been one of the most advanced nations in the world. We would have abolished Brahminism in all spheres of life by now. The Dalits alone have taken to that patth....argues indian political pundit

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 13, 2001



LEADER ARTICLE

Spiritual Democracy





KANCHA ILAIAH





VER since a large number of Dalits embraced Buddhism, more intense debate about the significance of Dalit spiritual life has been taking place in the media among religious forces and academia. Oddly, some scholars of sociology began to argue about the futility of discussing the right to religion and the right to priesthood in the context of capitalist modernity.

Similar arguments were heard in the context of the Durban conference about the inclusion of caste in the programme of action of the United Nations. When one examines the conscious arguments in relation to all agendas that the oppressed castes of India set for themselves by some academics, one cannot help feeling that there is a collective conspiracy operating in the form of theoretical casteism in all intellectual spheres of life. The voice of organic intellectuals to demolish the myths of theoretical casteism is extremely feeble. The mass action of the oppressed castes in whatever direction they think would liberate them alone will demolish such myths.

Let us look at the mythical arguments of many progressive and liberal scholars that capitalism and political democracy have outgrown the spiritual realm, and hence the fight of the Dalits in this realm is pointless. One is that Dalit liberation becomes possible more through politico-economic action like redistribution of land, increased wages and share in the political power.

The sophistry that the fight of the Dalits for equality in all modes of spiritual and civil societal structures, at best, would bring about a marginal change in their lives needs to be countered. It amounts to arguing that the role of religion as an agent of socio-economic power is over because capitalism has bowled out all human institutions that operate around religion. They, therefore, suggest that it is futile to invest the energy of struggling masses around the issues of religion.

Such arguments gloss over the fact that the social basis of capitalism as an economic system and democracy as a political system lies in spiritual democracy that religions like Buddhism, Christianity and Islam established. The notion of spiritual democracy is embedded in the early notion that all human beings are equal before God. Though Buddha did not take the name of any God, establishing the fact that all human beings can attain nirvana as part of the Sangha life was the first principle of spiritual democracy that the world had ever witnessed. India should be proud of this first step taken by the Buddha because nationalism should always go with democratic values but not with authoritarian or fascist values.

Unfortunately the Aryan ruler-centred (around Ram and Krishna) spiritual tradition went against this democratic tradition leading to spiritual casteism. It is this spiritual casteism that led to the establishment of spiritual fascism. All those intellectuals who benefited from spiritual casteism, irrespective of their present ideological position, pretend to ignore it as if it is natural.

This is the reason why Indian nationalism and Buddhism were not made coterminous but nationalism and Hinduism were made coterminous. Had India moved in the Buddhist direction in terms of religion at the time of the anti-British struggle, India would have been one of the most advanced nations in the world. We would have abolished Brahminism in all spheres of life by now. The Dalits alone have taken to that path.

The second major step towards establishing spiritual democracy was taken by Jesus. He centred his discourse around the notion of God quite formidably to establish a fundamental democratic principle that before God all — including Jews, Samaritans (the untouchables of Israel), slaves and women — were equal. In subsequently denying the right to priesthood to women,

Christianity went against Jesus’s teaching. However, the right to priesthood for all classes and tribes and for women to be part of church congregations were among the first major steps in the realm of spiritual democracy in Asia. The politico-legal democratic principle that all are equal before law was first established as a Christian ethic and is an extension of the spiritual principle that all are equal before God. Hinduism, which is being linked to the Vedic texts, went astray by not recognising that all castes are equal before God. This is where Buddhism and Hinduism stood against each other in the Indian subcontinent. Here again Christianity as an Asian-born religion went against Hinduism. Because of the common character of spiritual democracy, Buddhism expanded eastwards even encircling Israel, the land of Jesus, and Christianity expanded westwards.

Because of spiritual casteism, Hinduism did not spread anywhere beyond the caste-centred societies of India and Nepal. Islam, with the initiative of Prophet Mohammed, started as a more radical spiritual democracy. At once it liberated women as Mohammed himself married a widowed businesswoman. The Koran was the first book of one voice that framed the rules of spiritual democracy giving equal rights to all tribes, castes and classes within a broad patriarchal framework. It also took the first step towards advancing science within the framework of religion. Since Islam did not allow radical reforms, it subsequently stagnated by slowly pushing itself into spiritual authoritarianism. When Christianity faced the challenge of Islam, it allowed radical reforms within leading to the growth of Protestantism.

The processes of industrial and democratic revolutions in the West must be located in the process of deepening spiritual democracy in the Christian realm where spiritual democracy transformed the civil societal base into social liberalism. Reforms in Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam were no match for the onward march of spiritual and political democracy and the advancement of science and technology that got social support within the Christian world. The dialectical relationship between spirituality and the human mind stilted the march of atheistic socialist thought. Otherwise, socialism would have spread across the globe. As some of our left intellectuals assume, religion as a social system is not yet bowled out.

The present process of globalisation along with the market would also result in competition between religions where the religions that have radical reformative abilities may wage wars against spiritual authoritarian and spiritual fascist modes wherever and in whichever form they survive. Since dignity of labour is going to play a crucial role in global capitalist modernity, the religions that compete even in the spiritual market by expanding the space for rational thinking will attract the educated mind. In this process, Hinduism that refuses to grant spiritual democratic rights to Dalits, who live around it, might face a problem.

(The author is a professor of political science, Osmania University, Hyderabad)

This is the current state of Muslim apologists...

1. They Can`t face the fact that they have a direct relationship to God, enabling them to clearly see that some of their so called revelations (hadis, sharia, Quran) are nonsense.

2. To avoid this descrepency they try to change Islam. It`s good if one uses reason to interpret scripture. However, Muslim apologists are at often times COWARDS who cant deal with the fact that islam is inherently sexist-among other things. Instead of being real men/women and admitting that Islam isnt perfect, theyll convince themselves that it is.

3. They will then do all sorts of silly intellectual gymnastics to shadow the line separating ``traditional`` Islam with what they think Islam should be (all the time convincing themselves that there is no divide).

...Urstruly wouldnt dare, would anyone else?

Sattar2

As per other board you are claiming that we are debating at this board. Well it is a news to me. BTW what are we debating-you are shouting so loud that I cant hear a thing.

Talib 142

hunh??? BTW I asked for Hindu men and not the aadhaa Hindu man.

Urstruly Sahib (#139),

You seem to be giving up way too easily, without backing up your claims of Islam being “Deen-e-Fitrat”. Your “which means …” chant is a futile attempt at sounding intelligent … while you are at a loss to explain Islam without sounding like a deranged, drunk, lunatic. Your Islam is not “Deen-e-Fitrat”. It is an absurd fairy-tale of flying prophets and bloodthirsty men of God.

This is quite a contrast from the Ahmadi interpretation, which removes distortions in Islam. This is the blessing of following the prophet of Allah. He purifies the religion and challenges the authority of corrupt clergy. Incidentally this also explains why you mullahs have unanimously singled out Ahmadis for violent persecution and abuses.

My goal? … it is to present the pristine, true Islam to the mankind. I do not care if you agree with me or not … as long as I am allowed to peacefully practice and preach true Islam. However, if you still insist that we have two different religions, then feel free to find another name for your religion. Also, although, Allah has chosen the name Islam for my faith, it would not bother me if you also call yourself a Muslim. See, how easy this is [grin].

You now invoke respect for each other’s beliefs. While I have only spoken to you in a reciprocal manner, and shown you your own ugly face in the mirror, I wonder what happened to the vocal, fire-and-brimstone, jamaati mullah who got his kicks from bashing liberals, Ahmadis, westerners, and Hindus all too often. It is you who reviled Ahmadis on several boards here. In Pakistan you animals are all too eager to bring charges of “posing” as a Muslim against Ahmadis and perpetuate sectarian violence! Asking for mutual respect, when you can no longer defend your position … intellectually or forcibly … when you can no longer shove your Islam down the throats of others … hmmm … throwing in the towel, Urstruly Sahib?



You should have no difficulty explaining how Islam is Deen-e-Fitrat. Just pretend you are explaining to Radha the descent of Jesus Christ from skies on the wings of two angels, his battle with the one-eyed monster riding a giant, fire-breathing donkey, while in reality, you yourself will sound like to a giant donkey. But you must be quite used to this by now, since this is how you argued your case on Blasphemy Laws, concept of jihad, violence against Ahmadis, and more [hee hee hee … I am exploding with laughter as I type this … oh God … you crack me up, Urstruly Sahib … sometimes life is like a funny episode in a low-budget sitcom …].

So, let me see you make a complete idiot of yourself yet another time, trying to explain flying prophets, while maintaining that in reality it is the Ahmadis who are heretics and kaffirs. How is this for a “predictable” response [wide grin]?

Asad

Reply Urstruly # 135

“Brilliant repartee” SHOULD be easy when one is writing both sides of a “conversation”. What’s your excuse?

As we say in Bombay: kombdi, thum ithna stupid kay ko hai?

Zafar #131
Thanks, though I have to say my family members seem to have the clearest fundas on these things..

And as someone was saying, there is now the Constitution-smriti available for guidance :)

Re: #130

jay,

(1)

``It is alleged that conciousnes cannot be the product of the brain, or rather there is no physical analogue to something being aware of itself.``

Fortunately, we live in times where there are plenty of examples available.

Take the chowk web-server for example. The software running on it has at least 10 layers and more. Is the chowk server aware of itself and its surroundings ?...yes, it is. If I send a `good` message it will say `acccepted, thank you` otherwise it will say something appropriate.

How did my message get to chowk? Basically, as the message was travelling down the line saying `I am a message for chowk``, the chowk server says ``I`m chowk. I`ll take you``. To some other messages it says, ``No, you are not for me. I`m chowk``.

How close is that to humans?

The upper layer softwares are dependent of the lower. Error messages received by the upper layers will be properly handled as they are passed onto the lower layers. BUT, if an error happens to the LOWEST layer...which is standing alone, the system will crash.

Is the system aware of its lowest layer? No, its not. It is the lowest layer which GENERATES the first `basic awareness`. This awareness gets MULTIPLIED as more and more layers are added.

IMO, this is exactly the way the brain is working. We are off course not aware of the deeper layers of our consciousness, let alone the deepest layer.

When I say I`m aware of myself, I mean I`m aware of my thoughts and feelings...which is basically the `top layer`. If I fall into a deep sleep, I`m not `aware` of myself...the `top layer` is silent. But my deeper layers are still fully functioning...while I`m not `aware`.



(2)

``Time and space are simply a product of perception, there may not be any physical `objective, thing out there.``

Yes, of course...thats what the relativity theories are all about.



(3)

``If life is all so predictable, it should be very boring. Ultimately, from a pure utilitarian view poin, give life some magic. If you believe in it, it will happen.``

You sound like Deepak Chopra!

regards,

Sattar # 2

I wonder why we quarrel when we have two completely differnt set of beliefs-which means that we are two differnt people-which means we observe two differnt religions-which means we should respect each other`s beliefs-which means we should recognize the differnces and not exploit them--which means less hostility-which means give and take-which means no segregation but cooperation-which means no need for laws to maintain order-which means everybody wins.

Which needs respect for each other`s dogma-which needs understanding each other`s dogma-which needs a discusion-which needs less rebuking and more talking-which needs effort-which needs determination-which needs a goal-what is your goal?

Sadna # 137

hummmm....let me guess...from now on you will only ``discuss`` Islamic dogma and pass unqualified remarks as before...right? right?

I wonder where have all the hindu men gone? Despite the fact that I`ve promised to be as non-lethal as possible but still......hummmmmm

Urstruly #135
``Me say
``Now I am Hindu. Now I am not.Now I am Hindu. Now I am not. Now I am Hindu. Now I am not.Now I am Hindu. Now I am not.`` ``

Are you trying to say you are a vacillating Hindu? I donot understand what you mean by it, nor do I really cate.

I do believe in secular values in public affairs or the closest approximation. Its not contrary to being or thinking or acting as a Hindu as well. I am not promoting secular atheism. You seem to think the two are the same. I remember to have read Pakistani writers lamenting this confusion among Pakistanis in general.

Urstruly, you are the one putting words in others mouths, no matter what I actually say or mean, so why do you need ANYONE around? I certainly donot want to interact with you further on Hinduism.

Re Urstruly (#132):

In response to my post making several strong, although “predictable” points [wink], your comment indicates that you really do not have anything intelligent to say.

I feel strongly about finality of prophethood … since this is the crux of the lame, unfounded argument deployed by jahil mullahs like you to persecute Ahmadi-Muslims. It is comforting to know that Allah’s prophets and their followers have always been persecuted by animals of your kind, who twist God’s words and hurt the innocent and the defenseless. Allah has always helped His people in the face of violent opposition, and He continues to do so. Do not forget what happened to Zia, and King Faisal, and Bhutto. Egyptian Pharoh and his army chasing Moses were drowned, and that was a great sign for the believers. Non-believers see it merely as a coincidence … ah, Moses got lucky! Here you have three kings who persecuted Ahmadi-Muslims … and were killed like animals. If you still do not see the hand of Allah in this, is it my fault?



I have raised the issue of absurdities of mainstream Islamic faith several times in the past. Your continued silence, despite your empty claims that Islam is “Deen-e-Fitrat”, speaks volumes. It shows that you are not able to deal with contradictions in your faith and continue to believe blindly … the makings of a typical low IQ, overzealous, religious fanatic. It is no wonder you deal with these insecurities by persecuting innocent minorities. Nothing new here … this has happened all throughout the history of mankind.

Here … deal with this … my dear pathetic, “unpredictable”, fanatic mullah.

Asad

Sadna:

I dont understand why you are always angry when a subject matter can be discussed calmly and reasonably. Let`s see:

You say:

Urstruly, if you donot read or comprehend what I write, is it my fault? Where is this dogma you are quoting? Why shouldnot anyone protest? To me it is clear that in fact, anyone interested in earning karma brownie points needs to protest but do it honestly and with integrity.

Me say:

Okay fair enough-so may be I didnt understand what you wanted to convey or what exactly did you have in your mind-fair enough-but where is your attempt to explain? And by the way how do you figure out if one`s protest is `honest and with integrity` or not?

You say:

Urstruly, I appeal to you to understand, my reply was not meant for you(since I know the subject matter is a little tough and requires sincerity), but for anyone HONESTLY interested in the subject.

Me say:

Ms. Sadna your post was addressed to me-my name was on it. Isn`t it presumptive and speculative to claim that I am not honestly interested. I wonder what gives.

You say:

I am very outspoken about your dogma of killing kafirs and false Muslims in India and Kashmir and will continue to be. If you choose to call it Islam, thats your choice, as a Hindu I have nothing to do with what you call it.

Me say:

Now I am Hindu. Now I am not.Now I am Hindu. Now I am not. Now I am Hindu. Now I am not.Now I am Hindu. Now I am not.

You say:

Again, where have I promoted secular atheist values? Urstruly I doubt even your God can forgive a liar.

Me say: