Muslims and The West After 11th September

re: Bhardwaj # 527

You are right, as always.

Regards.

htp://www.memri.org/sd/SP31201.html

Special Dispatch 312 – Jordan December 12, 2001

Former Chairman of the Jordanian Physicians` Association Criticizes U.S. National Security



Advisor

Condoleezza Rice`s Comments on Treatment of Women



in the Muslim

World The London Arabic-language daily Al-Quds Al-Arabi recently published an article by the former chairman of the Jordanian Physicians` Association, Dr. Tareq Tahboub: [1] American Women Are Humiliated More Than Afghan Women

``What pushed me to write this article was the interview with U.S. National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice on CNN. Asked by Wolf Blitzer about the situation of women in Afghanistan, the advisor spoke powerfully and in great detail about the situation of women in Islamic countries, primarily Saudi Arabia, and about how America cannot agree to the humiliation of women in the Islamic world.`` ``The advisor forgot that the living example of humiliation of women in the twenty-first century is Hillary Clinton, whose husband fed her all kinds of degradation and humiliation, to the point where she was forced to lie in front of television cameras in order to defend him and his perverted relationships. She testified that he was `innocent` of Monica and Paula – as the wolf is innocent of the blood of [Joseph], the son of Jacob [whose brothers threw him into a pit to be rid of him and claimed that an `evil beast` had devoured him].`` ``The advisor also forgot to mention that the White House files proved that Nixon`s wife suffered a tear in her retina as a result of a severe blow she received from her husband.`` ``What humiliation could be greater for women than the systematic rape of a freshman university female student [in America], as was proven in documentary and feature films telling true stories. The last of these films, broadcast a month ago on Jordanian television, presented the true story of a student and her friends who were raped by members of a fraternity headed by her brother. The epilogue said that most young American women are raped at university. Eighty-seven percent of rapes are carried out during freshman year, by their classmates, at student parties. They get the girls drunk with a drink said to be fruit juice (punch) but which is actually mixed with alcohol. The exacerbation of this problem led to the establishment of legal and psychiatric departments at the universities to handle this phenomenon, which has reached epidemic proportions.`` ``Where are women`s rights, when their statistics show that one in every three American women is raped – in addition to sexual harassment in the workplace, and even on the part of generals in the military, during their hours of rest from bombing Iraq and Afghanistan?`` ``What humiliation could be greater for women than the fashion shows [catwalks] or beauty pageants, in which the so-called beauty queens are stripped before the hungry eyes of men so that their internal measurements around the bust and hips can be taken, as if they were calves at a cattle auction?`` ``What humiliation – and I quote from the article of Mr. Muwfaq Mahaddin, the leftist journalist from the [Jordanian paper] Al-Arab Al-Youm, who demanded that the labor unions and parties [in Jordan] donate money for oppressed British women – could be greater than the results of a poll conducted recently by one of the papers, that showed that the British man has an average of five extramarital lovers? [Not to mention] what Alan Clark, defense secretary in the Thatcher government, did – he admitted that he had slept with three generations – a girl, her mother, and her grandmother – in his office in the British Defense Ministry, as published in the Daily Mirror.`` Violence Against Women in the U.S.

``What domestic violence are they talking about, when British police statistics show more than a million incidents of domestic violence annually? What children`s rights are they demanding, when in America alone, a quarter of a million children are killed every year by aborting unwanted fetuses – something that has pushed Americans with a conscience to blow up some of the clinics in which they carry out this kind of murder and kill some of the doctors working in this area? What children`s rights are they talking about, when pedophilia is legal on the Internet and the networks of this perversion reach from Thailand to Australia – a general epidemic from which not even the Church was spared.`` ``Our advice to the advisor is to look at herself before she tries to force her principles and opinions on others. We have suffered enough from the American way of life forced upon us by the media and marketing of the American model.`` ``The Greatest Damage is Western Television``

``The damages [caused by] the American model are not limited to burgers, cola, and Marlboro, which most cannot buy as a result of widespread poverty in the Islamic world. The gravest damage is television, something that almost no home, rich or poor, lives without. When dinnertime comes (which is the Arab/Muslim family`s traditional hour for meeting in the Islamic world), everyone eats in front of the television, with no conversation developing among the members of the family. When Mickey Mouse comes on, the children throw their food on the floor. Children are also influenced by depictions of violence in cartoons. Thus, family life is being abolished… Nevertheless, Islam and even the Muslims are accused of terrorism, although they make up 82% of the exiles and refugees in the world…`` [1] Al-Quds Al-Arabi (London), December 7, 2001.



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There is no use denying it, Mr. Musharraf -- the Indians know it -- the Americans know it -- and the Pakistanis know it -- the attack on Indian Parliament WAS carried out by Jaishi and LeT TERRORISTS -- not the ``freedom fighters``.

Ban the B#st#rds -- just ban them -- even on paper -- but ban them -- and put that criminal Azhar in jail.

Burning bridges with India right now is not worth anything -- China or even US can`t save the situation -- ONLY YOU can Mr. Musharraf.

BAN the LeT and Jaish -- and put their leaders in jail -- and no more terrorist attacks in Kashmir -- it does no good to anyone -- on the subcontinent.

Afghanistan should be an eye opener for everybody.

Terrorism does not pay -- it only brings more deaths and more destruction.

hasan

nasah (#500):

You have raised some valid points … about the “permanence” of Quran and preferential preservation of its text, and “newer prophets”. Here’s a brief response …

My understanding is that Quran deals with issues that are related to fundamental human psyche and consciousness. These are deeply rooted instincts … will to power, lust for material wealth, sins of the flesh, fear of losing a loved one, fear of public ridicule, dealing with one’s ego, substance abuse, gambling impulses, and more. These instincts operating at an individual level form the collective psyche of a nation, and eventually shape the history of the mankind. They determine the fate of hundreds of millions of people … sometimes in a very basic manner … who dies and who gets to live in a bigger house. Who loses a leg … and who gets to eat another chicken for dinner.

These raw emotions have not changed since the days of Adam. Humans and societies today wrestle with same problems they dealt with ages ago. Severely uneven distribution of wealth is an example. Man is still lying and cheating … still mugging, murdering, raping, and pillaging … we are still dealing with sins of the flesh … teenage pregnancies, substance abuse, spousal abuse, child pornography, rampant gambling …nations are still at war … Here in the USA tons of food is thrown away, while a third of Africa is fighting starvation. Man’s greed, will to power, lust knows no bounds … it was with us yesterday and today, and will be there for days to come.

As long as the basic human thoughts and instincts do not change, it would be reasonable for the divine message to stay unchanged also. Now, you may have disagreements with teachings of Islam, which are not necessarily related to the “permanence” of its message, rather with the sheer “content” of the message. But that will lead to a whole new discussion.

Now, on the issue of the “New Prophets” … the Plancks’, the Hawkins, the Einsteins, the Salams … yes, they need to be emulated. This will help us understand the universe a bit better, and use this knowledge to serve the cause of humanity.

It is worth pointing out, that science, if not practiced with human compassion and love of the mankind, will no doubt lead us to self-destruction. Good conscience is a pre-requisite if we want to benefit from the discoveries of science. Religions helps in this regard, but only if understood correctly, and practiced with a sense of love and respect towards others.

Just recently we had a drive at our local mosque in San Jose (northern California) where plasma samples were collected in search of finding a match for an Indian engineer. He is in a dire need of a bone-marrow transplant, and is basically racing against the clock, with only four months to go. Due to ethnic factors, his type can be matched only by a person from the Indian subcontinent. The odds are one match in sixty thousand. I hope and pray we are able to save the son of a gun …

Such applications enhance my conviction that science can certainly alleviate a lot of human suffering. But we have to come to grips with the beast within us first … and that’s where the religious prophets come in. Once we have bowed to their message, the message of guarding against our ego and our animalistic desires, we should certainly bow to the message given to us by the Plancks, the Hawkins, and the Salams.

I’ll post more later, otherwise this post will become too long … Regards,

Asad

sattar

thanks..ill definitly look it up especially since i pass bvs everyday :) ...that bit about your family and the boys in jail was horrid, asad..i am a shia and a minority and therefore know to some extent the discrimination one often faces from small minded human beings..but no where have i faced such open budtameezi..some months back before this whole afghanistan thing blew out of proportion, shia doctors and scholars were being killed in target killings almost every week..on the way home from work one day with my dad a few months ago i recall the terror i felt when a motorbike with two young men came too close to our car...that feeling of terror is something i had never before felt and wont try to describe because it wouldnt be possible..and to think that my people are no where close to the extreme insecurity and discrimination your people suffer from...i feel for you..i say this from deep inside..

asad, why dont you do something? i understand that in the age of intolerance we are going through right now in pakistan, things would be difficult...but then they always are when one is fighting such jahalat..you are an articulate and calm individual..use chowk..this is a fine collection of people of all ages, reaches, communities and nationalities...even if the people here, the muslims and pakistanis in particular, dont agree with your religion and are vehemnetly opposed to the blasphemous ideas (as they might percieve them), they will all help..what is happening is wrong and everyone will agree..they cant not..if you come up with something/anything, please let us know

regards

anNy

In view of the looming war clouds on the horizon of Indo-Pak relations (no bus service and no Samjhauta train) -- I would like to repost the following response to SameerJB post#266

December 21, 2001

Our Friends the Terrorists

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF



Just to puncture our hypocrisy for a moment: We`ve been battling terrorism by bolstering backers of terrorism in Pakistan.

Pakistan, our new ally in the war on terrorism, has a long history of supporting indiscriminate attacks in India and especially Kashmir.

The latest, headline-grabbing attack was the assault on the Parliament building in New Delhi that now threatens war between two nuclear powers, but many thousands of civilians have been killed over the years by Pakistani-financed terrorist organizations.



All in all, Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence Agency, or I.S.I., is responsible for many more killings than Osama bin Laden.

But however hypocritical it may be to bolster one government that harbors terrorists while overthrowing another, there is no good alternative.



The Bush administration is exactly right to be simultaneously supporting Gen. Pervez Musharraf and twisting his arm to fight terrorism, for he may be Pakistan`s last hope to rescue his country.

Pakistan today is not only a catastrophe for Pakistanis but a threat to the entire region.

Its economy is quasi-feudal, some 55 percent of adults are illiterate and more than 10 percent of children die by the age of 5. Pakistan now has more drug addicts than college graduates.

In the last 20 years public schooling has been partly replaced by madrasas that preach extremism, the pursuit of nuclear weapons has isolated the government, and foolish policies have crippled the economy.



The I.S.I.`s installation of the Taliban in Afghanistan has backfired, and now there is a risk of the ``Talibanization`` of Pakistan, as religious extremists return from their ``crusades`` in Afghanistan and Pashtuns perhaps revive their quest for an independent ``Pashtunistan.``

In Pakistan earlier this month, I flinched whenever I read the newspapers.



Guerrillas in Kashmir were ``freedom-fighters`` if they lived, ``martyrs`` if they died.



And on The Nation`s editorial page appeared this rant: ``The Christian world has not accepted us [Muslims] as human beings even. These nations are determined to exterminate the Muslims.``



General Musharraf is in charge of this morass, and — under strong pressure from President Bush, and less visible nudging from China — he has acted decisively to pull his country toward reality. He ousted the head of the I.S.I., permitted the entry of U.S. troops to oust the Taliban, and sent troops for the first time into tribal areas to capture Taliban escapees.

He has moved to sideline the religious fanatics, close the extremist madrasas and deport foreign religious students.



Next he must clamp down on the Kashmiri fighters.

Over the last two years General Musharraf has shown himself capable of brutally tough decisions, and there is some reason to think that he can regain control of the I.S.I. (which may have run the latest Indian attack as a rogue operation), cut off state support for Kashmiri terrorists, nurture a growing market economy — and prepare for democratic elections.



The religious parties get less than 5 percent of the vote in Pakistan, and so democracy can delegitimize extremism as well.

When I first traveled around Pakistan as a student backpacker two decades ago, I sneaked into closed tribal areas and visited a village that was a center for heroin and gun-running. One gunsmith tried to sell me a pen that could not only write but also shoot a .22 bullet out the end.



Not even a Palm Pilot can do that, and it was only $7! This incredibly nifty gadget enthralled me as a symbol of Pakistani ingenuity — and it`s also apt because Pakistan has squandered its considerable potential and excelled far more at things destructive than constructive.

Now Pakistan is at a moment of maximum danger, threatened by the instability caused by returning Taliban fighters on the west and by the risk of war with India on the east.



Similarly, it was at a time when India was near economic collapse, in the summer of 1991, that New Delhi moved decisively toward a path of economic reform — and toward more sensible domestic and international policies across the board.

Pakistan, after so many wrong turns in its history, has tentatively taken a right one in the last few months.

_________________________________________________

Now it must build on that by clamping down on its own terrorists.

_________________________________________________

And, whatever the stench of blood in Islamabad, we Americans must hold our noses and do all we can to help General Musharraf hold his course. (NYT)

And that goes for India as well.— “ do all we can to help General Musharraf hold his course.”

dost mittar #516, ``That`s why I personally take the position that we should keep religion at the individual level where it has served a useful purpose and out of the political arena where its net effect has been negative. And that in a nutshell is my version of secular humanism.``

Wise stance. I agree.

dost-mittar, Glenn

If all religions are ``slightly revised versions`` of one another, that can only be good news, since God is certaily One; and for any one of us to claim some special privilege over Him is not only downright stupid but also narcissistically arrogant. Believe me, narcissism never did anybody any good.

Dost, your comment brought some very happy memories to my mind. The first person who CLEARLY explained to me the profoundly tricky concept of Maya and its relationship to material world was an elderly Sikh gentleman (man, I feel nice just thinking of him...just a gentleman!) in Delhi. Here was one philosophical concept that I just couldn`t get my mind around to...until this wonderful father-figure almost took me by hand and explained things to me as one would to a child.

After that, all these discussions about the social construction of knoweledge, virtual reality, phenomenological universes that I have sat through in American universities have been a cakewalk. And many of my American friends wonder why. :)

Regards.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Hobbyty #510

``Esposito and Armstrong with write out of their deep Catholic faith - their writing is not in contention - at the end of my post I listed for you some writers - have you looked into any of their work?? ``

I had asked for prominent writers (i.e. popular). I am glad you agree on Esposito and Armstrong, and hope you agree that these are among the most prominent writers on Islam in the West today. You then provide the names of a couple of magazines, and without reading them I will accept your word that they attack Islam. Please ask yourself if you are being objective and balanced in your views when you base your widesweeping remarks that Islam is being attacked on this. I wont even go into other writers and public tv shows (like the wonderful and widely popular documentary on Islam by PBS in the US that explained what Islamic societies were like in their heyday - as in Baghdad where scholars from Christian, Jewish and Hindu scholars worked to promote science and math.

Someone else mentioned some writers too in providing names of people ``attacking Islam``, of whom only Bernard Lewis would count as prominent writer. I have not read his books in full, but I did read a bit of his current best-seller ``Islam and the West`` and found it to be quite factual and geared towards building an understanding of Islam. A google search on the internet indicated only one criticism of the writer - by an Armenian who claimed that Lewis was denying the Armenian genocide of the early 20th century at the hands of the muslim Turks. So, while I dont know enough about Lewis to have an opinion, even if he were hostile to Islamic civilizations - so what? This is the best you people can do, name one prominent writer (where I could name at least three others in addition to Armstrong and Esposito) in the West whom you consider to be attacking Islam.

The fact is that Islamic societies are in fact among the most backward on earth compared not just to the West but to the East as well in China and Japan and even India is by now more advanced in certain important ways than any muslim society. The truth is that the progressive people of the world - and I exclude our resident hindutvas like Jay from this category :-) - are not against anybody: they have too many positive things to do with their time (furthering science, improving learning, and so forth) to concern themselves with fighting ancient wars.

Tahmed321 and Hobbyty,

You guys may also want to learn about the attack on Christianity by America:

(To those of you who may not know of David Limbaugh, he is the son of Mr. Rush Limbaugh, another man who thinks his religion has got it right, and probably also believes that Muslims are all satan worshippers)

Further assaults on Christianity



By David Limbaugh



© 2001 WorldNetDaily.com

The cultural assault against Christianity continues in America. As our society bends over backward to assure Islam that it is a glorified and peaceful religion, the least it could do is to accord Christianity similar respect.

In Portland, Ore., a mother was upset because the Boy Scouts were recruiting at her son’s elementary school. Her son was repeatedly recruited, beginning when he was 6 years old, but the Boy Scouts admit only boys who profess a belief in God, and the boy and his mother are atheists.

The aggrieved family filed a complaint with the school district alleging that the school, by allowing recruiting on its property during school hours, violated Oregon’s anti-discrimination law. The law prohibits religious discrimination in Oregon’s public school system. Boy Scout leaders insisted that school recruitment is essential because it is the most effective and least expensive method.

The school superintendent twice ruled against the boy, saying that it is the Boy Scouts, not the school, that deny membership to atheists. Interestingly, when the matter was appealed to the circuit court the boy testified that he had never actually tried to join the Boy Scouts. When he came home after first being recruited and excitedly told his activist-atheist mother, she told him, ``The Boy Scouts do not take our kind,`` and the boy broke into tears. Regardless, the court overruled the superintendent and ordered him to rewrite his decision.

Before you conclude that this is a splendid vindication of constitutional principles rather than evidence of our society’s growing hostility to Christianity, consider more examples reported by the Washington Times in a recent article:

A Frederick County school employee was prohibited from passing out Christmas cards at school because it ``may not be a legally protected right on a public school campus.``

A Pennsylvania 4th grader was stopped from giving Christmas cards to classmates.

Two Minnesota middle-schoolers got in trouble for wearing red and green scarves in a Christmas skit and for ending the skit with a Merry Christmas wish for the audience. (You heard me right; they got disciplined for this.)

Two Massachusetts students were forbidden from creating cards saying ``Merry Christmas`` or depicting a nativity scene.

An Oregon superintendent required removal of religious, but not secular decorations from students’ lockers.

A Georgia school board, after being threatened with suit by the ACLU, deleted the word ``Christmas`` from the school calendar.

Notice that all of these involve public repression of voluntary student action. You can dress them up in noble-sounding civil rights language or the enlightened vernacular of multiculturalism and pluralism, but the bottom line remains: Expressions of Christianity are becoming increasingly taboo in polite American society today. Yet expressions of utter disrespect for Christianity and what it holds sacred are celebrated in some circles. The University of Northern Iowa, for example, recently hosted ``Corpus Christi,`` a play depicting Christ having sex with the 12 apostles.

As you probably know, the war against Christianity and Christmas is not a phenomenon localized to the public schools. A county executive in Washington State issued a memo decreeing that any holiday celebrations must be ``religion-neutral`` and ``held in a respectful, inclusive and sensitive manner that does not favor one religion over another.`` Greetings were ordered to be generic (``Happy Holidays``), and decorations were not to include ``religious symbols.`` The memo added that before holding a holiday social gathering all employees ought to be consulted and care should be taken to protect from retaliation those who do not concur with holding the gathering. Thankfully, after complaints by the Catholic League and others, the executive reversed himself and permitted employees to say ``Merry Christmas.``

Can you imagine this? The prohibitions are bad enough, but the paranoid order not to retaliate is way over the top. Besides those who are stumbling drunk from the noxious fumes of political correctness, who would even imagine that an employee would be retaliated against for not endorsing a little Christmas party?

There are doubtless some sincere zealots out there who mistakenly believe that the First Amendment establishment clause mandates not only a separation of church and state, but also the virtual freedom from religion in the public arena. But others just use the Constitution as a stealth weapon against Christianity. It is not constitutional rights they are promoting, but a worldview that is decidedly hostile to Christianity because its values get in the way of their agenda.



David Limbaugh, an attorney practicing in Cape Girardeau, Mo., is the author of the pull-no-punches exposé of corruption in the Clinton-Reno Justice Department, ``Absolute Power.`` Personally signed copies are now available in WorldNetDaily`s online store.

Trillium (#484):

Anti-Ahmadiyya riots keep erupting in Pakistan every now and then. They are concentrated more in Punjab and not so much in Karachi, where I grew up.

My cousins in Punjab reported hateful attitudes and more due to Ahmadiyyat. Some were jailed for wearing kalima badges, and had to be bailed out. One attending an engineering university mentioned that Ahmadis were boycotted in their campus cafeteria, and were refused food and drinks. When they would go to other restaurants/eating places in town for lunch in between classes, jamaati-type students would follow them around, telling restaurant owners not to serve these “kaffirs” and sometimes threatening the restaurant owners who tried to serve them.

My Ahmadi friends who lived in hostels in Punjab mention that Ahmadi students had to live together … and frequently took turns as watchmen at night. They were sometimes attacked by jamaati students who would beat them up and vandalize their rooms etc.

In 1973 anti-Ahmadiyya riots in Rawalpindi, the mob attempted to set the house of my khalaa on fire. My khaloo, a man of unshakable faith, asked his wife and 6 kids to pray even as the main door burnt down. During these riots in Faisalabad, my relatives left their houses and took refuge in the house of another khalaa of mine …since she had a “pukka” house with an iron gate that provided some protection. They spent those days in terror as men guarded the house around the clock and women and children stayed indoors. During those days in Karachi, my father stood guard and conducted surveillance at night with other Ahmadi men in areas where Ahmadi families had assembled. These families had moved together in a few houses to better protect themselves against mob attacks … from the “defenders of Islam” …

I was a little boy then … and did not understand what was going on. Sadly enough, now that I have grown up, it still does not make sense. Even nowadays I keep reading reports of Ahmadi mosques being attacked and people being martyred. To my knowledge, no police reports are ever made and no investigation is carried out by the authorities. Hundreds of Ahmadis are in prisons on charges of “posing” as a Muslim, which usually consists of things like wearing a kalima badge, reciting Quran, or saying “bismillah” etc. in public. A common person in Pakistan does not hear most of these stories since the press is afraid to report due to the pressure from the mullah.

I do not know of any web-site that I can recommend … although going to the dawn.com, yahoo.com, or some other such web-site, and searching under “ahmadi” may yield some helpful links or information. I once read a paperback book “Conscience and Coercion” by a Canadian scholar Antonio Gualtieri, who documented the persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan. He visited Ahmadis in prisons and saw them shackled in chains …for reciting kalima. As these men were taken away after the interview, Antonio reported that they repeatedly recited kalima in audible voices as a show of defiance. Besides this, there may also be reports by various human rights groups that highlight some of these issues.

Anny,

Thanks for your kind comments … I much appreciate it.

For books/literature … it would be difficult to find any in bookstores in Pakistan. One option would be to go through an Ahmadi acquaintance, or visit the “Ahmadiyya Hall”, a mosque in Sadr, on Abdullah Haroon Road, right behind the BVS Parsi School. They normally have some books etc., but it may be a small, limited collection. There is this one book, by Chaudhry Sir Zafrullah Khan Sahib, “Ahmadiyyat - The Renaissance of Islam”, … which is a good one, if only you can find it. There is a lot of literature, but it may be difficult to access it in Pakistan … give it a try … I hope it works.

Asad

DOCTORING BY DAWN

Kashmir unrest

In the Dec 16 issue, there is an article labelled ``Kashmir unrest not terrorism: The Guardian``. I read the original Guardian article. While what is stated is true, the complete statement in the Guardian is:

``There is no doubt that the history of Pakistan meddling in Kashmir is unfortunate, to put it mildly. But to define the unrest in Kashmir as terrorism sponsored by Pakistan is a monstrous distortion. President Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan`s military ruler, inherited a legacy of militant Islam, created in the 1980s, that he has been trying to dismantle.``

Reading the Dawn article gives an incorrect impression that Guardian is only chastising India.

IRFAN CHAUDHARY

Cambridge, MA US

sattar2 # 474

….ty for replying….i guess the main bone of contention b/w ahamdiyas and the rest is the prophethood of mirza ghulam….the quran says the prophet mohammad was the seal of all the prophets, which is widely interpreted as meaning that he was the last of the prophets…

Sadna

“hobbyt, why shouldnot I focus on Taliban as a sample expression of traditional religion, after all I sense you take Western society to be the definative expression of `secular humanism`.”

You “sense”? wrong – when discussing the consequences of the religion of “secular humanism”, those consequences apply for all societies. You want to use Taliban as the definite “traditional” religion, by all means, but – why not Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism? Do they not fit the mould of “traditional” religion? – Are you using a “reductio ad absurdum” tactic? Why not be up front about it and why not be up front about intellectual honesty?. What are you arguing for or against? Taliban fixation? Muslim fixation? Duh?

“hobbyt, can anything be said about cultural norms of the one-billion-strong Islamic world (and ascribing it to relgion) in condoning the atrocities of the Taliban regime in the name of religion?”

I think certainly so, but only if it were true (should “true” count?) – after all, Taliban were not accepted by the entirty of the Muslim world and certainly the basis of their acceptance by those countries that did accept them, was not that they committed atrocities or that they condoned the committing of atrocities?– but while you are at it you may want to consider if anything could be said about cultural norms of one billion strong Hindu religion condoning the segregation and discrimination of peoples based on their caste in the name of religion, are these atrocities? – You get the point?

“The Taliban`s relgiosity was a failure long before Sept 11, is there any doubt? Those women I mnetioned were raped and kidnapped or confined to their homes much before Sept 11, ever since Taliban came to power in 1996 in fact.”

I would agree with you if you can say: the type of religiosity the Taliban promoted was not and could not be a success. Would the religiosity of Zionists be described as a failure, given the dispossession and massacres that took place?, or the existence of caste, a failure of the religiosity of Hindus? or racism in America, a failure of the religiosity of Americans? – once again, it is not religiosity but types of religiosity that have failed or succeed – but, Hey it’s a free world, you can make any assertion you wish.

If you get the chance read Dr. Karl Popper, “The Open Universe” – and also “Open society and it’s Enemies” “Logic of Scientific Discovery” - I think it would be fun to discuss his work. This reductio stuff is boring, unworthy of you.