Muslims and The West After 11th September

..looks like this board`s been hijacked by nerds :)...

re: saminashah

{Well, apparently all I have to do is show up on a board and everyone leaves...(sigh) guess I`ll take my ball and go home.}

...nah, i was just kidding :)...

The first thing Muslims need to do is stop useless debates based on compartive religious concepts. These include debates trying to prove that Islam is better than Hinduism, or Hinduism is better than Islam, etc. They also include debates over secularism and non-secularism. If someone wants religion in their public life, let them vote for it, and if someone wants secularism in their public life, let them vote for it. Just worry about yourselves. Let others do what they want. Secular extremists and religious extremists, like all extremists, think they have all the answers; but they don`t.

Islam is neither the cause, nor the solution, to any of the Muslim world`s problems. Pakistan is not going to become a utopia it it becomes a religious state, and it is not going to become a utopia if it becomes a secular state. Such debates are only used by people who define their identities from religion; either demanding its institutionalization, or its complete removal. It basically makes them, ``look cool`` within their own religious or secular crowds, however it sidelines the important topics like education, law and order, etc. Debates over comparitive religion divide people, they rarely unite people. And I have never seen anyone change their stance on secularism/non-secularism, after such debates. People just end up digging in their trenches furthur.

Maybe Quaid-e-Azam University would have had more microscopes in its chemistry dept. had there not been an Imam Ghazali, or maybe it would have had more Ph.Ds. in its physics dept. had their been two Imam Ghazalis, but what difference does that make now?

What I am suggesting is different from secularism. I don`t think religion should and can be taken out of the private and public life of a country, whose people want it there. Similarly, it cannot and should not be forced down the throats of people who do not want it. My suggestion is to stop making it center stage to every debate. Why is Pakistan backwards? Because it is not secular enough is the answer from the secular brigade. Because it is not religious enough is the answer from the religious brigade. Both brigades are arrogantly lost in their own selves.

Pakistan does not need secular humanism. It does not need religious humanism, either. It just needs plain old humanism. Humanism, in and of itself, is a concept far superior and far more important than the concepts of secularism and Islamism. If Pakistan achieves humanism, it will be a successful country. If it merely achieves secularism or Islamism, it will not necessarily have achieved humanism. The road to humanism can pass through either Islamism or secularism. To attempt to attach the useless adjectives of secularism or religionism to this noble concept, is nothing more than self-serving attempts by the two above-mentioned brigades to incorrectly show that humanism can only be achieved from either the secular road or the religious road.

If secular humanism is the only way to go, then where exactly does that place people like Mother Teressa and Edhi? And if religious humanism is the only way to humanism, then where does that place organizations like Amnesty International?

Judging a person or a country by how secular or religious it happens to be is ridiculous. People, societies and countries should only be judged by how humane they are. As long as Pakistan achieves humanism, I would be equally happy if it ends up being secular or religious country.

Scout # 86

I see that you have stopped being a good smaritan and carrying old ladies` groceries anymore. Why this sudden change of heart;)

re: saminashah

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fname=Iraq&fodname=20011203&sid=1

I now recall why I stopped coming here. There is NOTHING in the world more annoying then a desi American slave.

The situation is very simple. We are not talking about other nations here. The crimes against humanity perpetrated by the united snakes against iraq, afghanistan, nicaragua, cuba, the phillipines, chile etc etc are well documented.

Only a DAMN FOOL would not be able to detect a pattern here.

This is not about how fukked up the muslim world is, its about how fukked up YOU all are when you sellouts use SOPHISTRY to defend America.

Even the so called intelligentia at chowk (who can spot a corrupt muslim from accros the ocean) cant see when their own government is lying to them.

Anyone who does not think America is one of the most genocidal countries in history is either: Painfully stupid, brainwashed or ignorant.

Like I said, anyone who knows an ounce about politics will tell you the last 3 pages contain some of the stupidest, most misinformed replies ever.

This is a fukked up day. I just came back from a mosque. I thought they were backwards...

Samina: You are a Queen.

I wish someone would post pictures of Iraqi children with burnt skin, missing arms, lack of noses, eyes and ears, or maybe pictures of mothers whove lost children to prison torture in chile and the phillipines.

I want these cowards to see exactly what they`re defending.

This gives ``pedantic sophistry`` a new meaning...

Prem

Your previous writeup on America`s foreign policy was brilliant. Why cant all these whiners and hypocrits who talk about morality understand that it is not morality but ``National interests as perceived by leaders`` that govern foreign policy. American Govt is answerable to American public not to some Third World poors. American public elects them so that they can further American interests, not to sit back and waste American resources in reforming the world. And every country and every govt should do that. If Iraqi children die because of American sanctions, so be it. This is a cruel world where only ``interests`` are permanent, those who think otherwise live in a make-believe world. Why cant Iraqi people rise up and overthrow a dictator who has caused them so much misery. If they cant do that they should be ready to face the consequences. I am not heartless but this is how the world operates and people should get better used to it. Only strength respects strength. So if you want respect and freedom, be ready to pay the price for it. The rule of survival is:- amass strength be it economic or miliatry, create a free and open society in your country and dont think of yourself as the preserver of morality of the world.

Last post...

Samina: Don`t u feel stupid explaining this to grown adults? I was about to help you out with the whole debate thing but Ill jus chill on the sidelines with scout...

(for the same reason I wouldnt bother addressing an imam who thinks women should wear hijabs).

I seriously wonder how temporal would handle these clowns. Id bet he`d be all respectful and stuff, lol. What a guy!

Only a woman would have the patience to explain politics to children.

saminashah #70

``Madeleine Albright found it possible to ``rationalize`` the murder of half a million Iraqi children.``

Re Ms Albright personally. Boutros-Boutros Ghali, Kofi Annan`s predecessor who got on the wrong side of Madeline Albright was quoted in an article saying something like `Ms Albrights idea of diplomacy is to arrive at the scene, state the US position and then expect the other party to capitulate to it without demur, because in her mind, it is clear the other party had no alternative except to do so`. And this when she was working for Clinton who wanted the US to be engaged around the world, unlike Bush. [An explanation given for her `jingoistic combativeness` is that she is a first generation American who arrived as a refugee ?]

Urstruly #88, ``I see that you have stopped being a good smaritan and carrying old ladies` groceries anymore. Why this sudden change of heart;)``

The difference between you and me, is that I don`t take out my anger with US foreign policy on everything American. I don`t consider America the enemy. When I criticize it`s foreign policy, I criticize it light of the American values I learned in school and high school here, not because of some inherent hatred of whitefolks or anything Christian or Jewish.

A little nice Jewish woman can have all my good samaritan deeds anyday than a conniving back stabbing Muslimah and vice versa. For me it`s not about `us vs. them` as it is for many fanatic Muslims, but more about bad vs. good.

Why don`t we learn to criticize with an open mind?

Akash #93, ``American Govt is answerable to American public not to some Third World poors. American public elects them so that they can further American interests, not to sit back and waste American resources in reforming the world.``

If the American government deems it appropriate to intervene in the crisis and conflicts in these third world countries, then it is by far, very answerable to the people of these third world countries.

``If Iraqi children die because of American sanctions, so be it. This is a cruel world where

only ``interests`` are permanent, those who think otherwise live in a make-believe world.``

The US has enough military bases and intelligentsia in the area to `take care` of Saddam Hussein and Iraqi issues WITHOUT resorting to indirectly killing thousands of kids. I don`t see the point to it.

``Why cant Iraqi people rise up and overthrow a

dictator who has caused them so much misery. If they cant do that they should be ready to face the consequences.``

If that was an issue, the US wouldn`t have jumped into the Persian Gulf War. Why did they?

``I am not heartless but this is how the world operates and people should get better used to it. Only strength respects strength. So if you want respect and freedom, be ready to pay the price for it. The rule of survival is:- amass strength be it economic or miliatry, create a free and open society in your country and dont think of yourself as the preserver of morality of the world.``

Ok that all sounds fine and dandy, but then, why does the US intervene time and time again into the affairs of these countries. Why try `helping` the Kuwaitis out while ending up killing thousands of innocent Iraqis? Why bother lending support to Israel and just let the country and it`s inhabitants be? Why support anyone? Survival of the fittest right?

Bottom line is, if the US deems it appropriate to intervene in foreign affairs, then it is answerable to the woes of the foreign citizens it has effected by it`s policies.

re: Sadna # 95

With due respect to all those who admire Madeline Albright, she was the lousiest and most offensive diplomat I have ever heard about.

I sat through one of her ``talks,`` and was so disgusted with her answers to questions posed to her afterwards that I and a friend of mine walked out in utter contempt.

Here was a person who not only spoke the language of power, she knew about little else.

DRUMZ----94,93,91.

You are handling it fine.Such kind do not deserve a temporal response.

SaminaShah IS certainly a queen....my `crassness` about a certain kind of poetry & art(and not her!)notwithstanding.I`ll send a poem she might enjoy.

The smugness and inanity is maddening but really is a true slice of the stuff backhome.This is the slave-turf.

Other than the usual suspects(incl.you & I)who inter-act here there must be a multiplier number of readers/browsers who never interact.I have those too in mind when I post here.Major part of that constituency is a bit deprived,a little less confident and is under perpetual cultural hegemony by these defend-the-master at all costs type.

PS:I share your views about the obnoxious Imam as well.



Have you read any stuff by Gai Eaton?Silently and surely writings by him & his group are trekking into the psyche of the leading minds.[King of the castle--choices & responsibilities in the modern world] is the title of one of his books.Hasan Abdul Hakim is his muslim name.

Ah, it is a pleasure to take up an issue with three of the very best people on Chowk. Specially, when they feel so passionately about it.

Scout, to all those who tell you to shut up or go back to Afganistan, you should tell them to go jump into the nearest big pond. It is the DUTY of every American to speak up. They don`t bloody own America. They have their right to voice their opinions, and you have yours.

Drumz and Saminashah, strong points. Will get back to you.

rjanjua---56

The purpose to bring this to attention has nothing to do to peddle Islam per se.It was to point out that if such understanding is ingrained at school level then ad hoc emergency inter-faith meetings & iftaar parties can be avoided.

What prevents Pakistan to teach Religion as such to all school going children esp.the 0-level kind?It is in my opinion the most important curriculam item to be addressed because religion brings about the most havoc AND the most benefit to mankind.We ignore it at our own peril.

I said the Lords` prayer in my school in Pakistan and I still remember & cherish it(Our Father,thou art in heaven/ thou this day give us.....ect etc).My father who went to a hindu dharamsala school for a few years(because of the great math teacher there--& my fathers math record remained unbeaten in Bombay for a long time)& said the hindu prayer which he taught me too(20 years later!).& that too I remember:Aye Prabhoo anaand daataa giyaaan humm ko deejiyay-----etc etc.Thanks to Allah I have good memory and I remember most of my childhood literature verbatim.

I honestly believe,when I compare now,that I assert(home infusion)my faith with no apology & at the same time understand other faiths better than most in Pakistan.



If prof.Hoodbhoy is not so obnoxious in his disdain for religion & Islam then he will not get equal & opposite reaction in obnoxiousness.

Romair is holding the front very well along these lines.And he is perhaps aware that I am really not so much red in tooth & claw or if so then equally so with Gin-Power Mullahs too.;)