The Brahmin Warrior
Rehan Ansari December 8, 2001
#42 Posted by M.A.Jinnah on December 22, 2001 12:37:33 am
So after 3 months of Operation Fallana Dhamkana ,what does U.S.A. have to show No Mullah Omer NO Osama ,WHAT? but what the hell all this operation was for .NOT certainly dislodging Taleban,u.s. never wanted to do that for 8 years they were parked.Then what? So the objective was Osama & Mullah Omer for not handing over Osama to U.S. NOW we dont have NEITHER ! Plz tell me am i missing somthing or the world hiding somthing from me .
Bush Vows to Catch Osama bin Laden
By RON FOURNIER
WASHINGTON (AP) - Osama bin Laden may ``slither out`` of Afghanistan, but he won`t escape the global reach of U.S. forces, President Bush said Friday. He said the United States would send troops to nations seeking help to hunt down terrorists.
In a bluntly worded call to action, the president told world leaders: ``Thank you for your condolences. I appreciate your flowers. Now arrest somebody if they`re in your country.``
Gathering reporters in the Oval Office for an end-of-the-year review, Bush pronounced 2001 a success for the Republican domestic agenda and America`s budding war on terrorism. He praised lawmakers for cutting taxes and reshaping federal education programs, but called Congress` failure to pass economic legislation ``a big disappointment.``
``A lot of people are going to ask the question, `Why couldn`t you get something done?``` Bush said. Still, he said it was unclear whether an economic revival bill would be needed when Congress returns in late January.
The war on terrorism dominated the conversation, just as it consumed the final three months of Bush`s first year in office.
``The country is more secure today and less vulnerable to attack than before Sept. 11, because the enemy has made it clear that we are a target, and we`ve responded,`` the president said 101 days after suicide hijackings over New York, Washington and Pennsylvania.
``Is it still totally safe? No. And that`s why, as I`ve told you, my main job - my main worry - for America is to prevent another attack,`` he said.
Bush and his wife, first lady Laura Bush, showed off the new Oval Office floor covering, a cream-colored rug with golden bolts streaming from an American seal. A lone star, a taste of his native Texas, is stitched into the border.
One of the couple`s dogs, Spot, rolled across the carpet as Bush shrugged off suggestions that bin Laden slipped away from U.S. forces during cease fire talks in Afghanistan.
``I don`t know where he is. I hadn`t heard much from him recently, which means he could be in a cave that doesn`t have an opening to it anymore; or could be in a cave where he can get out or may have tried to slither out into neighboring Pakistan. We don`t know,`` the president said.
``But I will tell you this: We`re going to find him.``
Earlier, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said U.S. troops have begun combing Afghanistan`s rugged al-Qaida cave complexes as part of the search for bin Laden. Senior defense officials say the Afghanistan war commander, Gen. Tommy Franks, proposed also sending several hundred Marines and possibly a smaller number of Army troops to the Tora Bora area.
Bush did not reveal his next target, but said the United States will reap intelligence gains and track terrorists across the globe. He suggested that the next phase of the war will not be as bold and obvious as the Afghanistan conflict, saying some actions will be covert and others will not involve the military.
``There will be a lot of moments of boredom and then there would be some great joy,`` Bush said, quoting Franks.
Senior administration officials have said high-profile targets such as Iraq are unlikely to be part of Bush`s next move. He is said to be favoring action in countries harboring terrorists who pose the greatest and most immediate threat to Americans.
Somalia is considered prime for U.S. actions, the sources say, because some of bin Laden`s al-Qaida forces are believed to be in the country and there is no central government to control their activities.
Whether the action involves troops, diplomatic action or bank transactions that cut off money to terrorists, Bush said he will expect help from other countries.
``We`re constantly talking to countries, reminding them that if you`re with us, perform,`` Bush said.
Bush said allies will be given U.S. intelligence to help uncover the terrorists. To ensure their capture, Bush said: ``We`ll be glad to lend some troops`` to other countries.
Afterward, aides said Bush was willing to offer special forces and other troops to countries tracking down terrorists.
``We`re on the hunt,`` Bush said. ``We`re chasing one or two, three or four, 20 individuals at a time.``
The president said he had ordered the National Security Council to devise plans for handling the cases of captured forces in Afghanistan, including American John Walker Lindh, who fought for the Taliban.
Bush has not decided what to do about Lindh, but said he has not ruled out treason charges.
``We`ve told his lawyer that, at the appropriate time, we`ll let everybody know, including his family, how we`re going to proceed with Walker, as well as others that have become captured during this war,`` Bush said.
James Brosnahan, Lindh`s lawyer, said in a statement, ``We appreciate the many Americans who are keeping an open mind and waiting for all of the facts to emerge.`` He expressed hope that the government would allow Lindh access to his family and his attorney and would deliver a family letter to him.
On the economy, Bush passed up an opportunity to criticize Senate Democrats for blocking a GOP stimulus bill. And while his spokesman said Americans will go jobless for months longer because of the Senate`s actions, Bush expressed doubts about any long-term impact.
``We just have to see,`` he said. Asked whether an economic stimulus bill was necessary, Bush said, ``We`ll see.``
12/21/01 22:46
© Copyright
Bush Vows to Catch Osama bin Laden
By RON FOURNIER
WASHINGTON (AP) - Osama bin Laden may ``slither out`` of Afghanistan, but he won`t escape the global reach of U.S. forces, President Bush said Friday. He said the United States would send troops to nations seeking help to hunt down terrorists.
In a bluntly worded call to action, the president told world leaders: ``Thank you for your condolences. I appreciate your flowers. Now arrest somebody if they`re in your country.``
Gathering reporters in the Oval Office for an end-of-the-year review, Bush pronounced 2001 a success for the Republican domestic agenda and America`s budding war on terrorism. He praised lawmakers for cutting taxes and reshaping federal education programs, but called Congress` failure to pass economic legislation ``a big disappointment.``
``A lot of people are going to ask the question, `Why couldn`t you get something done?``` Bush said. Still, he said it was unclear whether an economic revival bill would be needed when Congress returns in late January.
The war on terrorism dominated the conversation, just as it consumed the final three months of Bush`s first year in office.
``The country is more secure today and less vulnerable to attack than before Sept. 11, because the enemy has made it clear that we are a target, and we`ve responded,`` the president said 101 days after suicide hijackings over New York, Washington and Pennsylvania.
``Is it still totally safe? No. And that`s why, as I`ve told you, my main job - my main worry - for America is to prevent another attack,`` he said.
Bush and his wife, first lady Laura Bush, showed off the new Oval Office floor covering, a cream-colored rug with golden bolts streaming from an American seal. A lone star, a taste of his native Texas, is stitched into the border.
One of the couple`s dogs, Spot, rolled across the carpet as Bush shrugged off suggestions that bin Laden slipped away from U.S. forces during cease fire talks in Afghanistan.
``I don`t know where he is. I hadn`t heard much from him recently, which means he could be in a cave that doesn`t have an opening to it anymore; or could be in a cave where he can get out or may have tried to slither out into neighboring Pakistan. We don`t know,`` the president said.
``But I will tell you this: We`re going to find him.``
Earlier, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said U.S. troops have begun combing Afghanistan`s rugged al-Qaida cave complexes as part of the search for bin Laden. Senior defense officials say the Afghanistan war commander, Gen. Tommy Franks, proposed also sending several hundred Marines and possibly a smaller number of Army troops to the Tora Bora area.
Bush did not reveal his next target, but said the United States will reap intelligence gains and track terrorists across the globe. He suggested that the next phase of the war will not be as bold and obvious as the Afghanistan conflict, saying some actions will be covert and others will not involve the military.
``There will be a lot of moments of boredom and then there would be some great joy,`` Bush said, quoting Franks.
Senior administration officials have said high-profile targets such as Iraq are unlikely to be part of Bush`s next move. He is said to be favoring action in countries harboring terrorists who pose the greatest and most immediate threat to Americans.
Somalia is considered prime for U.S. actions, the sources say, because some of bin Laden`s al-Qaida forces are believed to be in the country and there is no central government to control their activities.
Whether the action involves troops, diplomatic action or bank transactions that cut off money to terrorists, Bush said he will expect help from other countries.
``We`re constantly talking to countries, reminding them that if you`re with us, perform,`` Bush said.
Bush said allies will be given U.S. intelligence to help uncover the terrorists. To ensure their capture, Bush said: ``We`ll be glad to lend some troops`` to other countries.
Afterward, aides said Bush was willing to offer special forces and other troops to countries tracking down terrorists.
``We`re on the hunt,`` Bush said. ``We`re chasing one or two, three or four, 20 individuals at a time.``
The president said he had ordered the National Security Council to devise plans for handling the cases of captured forces in Afghanistan, including American John Walker Lindh, who fought for the Taliban.
Bush has not decided what to do about Lindh, but said he has not ruled out treason charges.
``We`ve told his lawyer that, at the appropriate time, we`ll let everybody know, including his family, how we`re going to proceed with Walker, as well as others that have become captured during this war,`` Bush said.
James Brosnahan, Lindh`s lawyer, said in a statement, ``We appreciate the many Americans who are keeping an open mind and waiting for all of the facts to emerge.`` He expressed hope that the government would allow Lindh access to his family and his attorney and would deliver a family letter to him.
On the economy, Bush passed up an opportunity to criticize Senate Democrats for blocking a GOP stimulus bill. And while his spokesman said Americans will go jobless for months longer because of the Senate`s actions, Bush expressed doubts about any long-term impact.
``We just have to see,`` he said. Asked whether an economic stimulus bill was necessary, Bush said, ``We`ll see.``
12/21/01 22:46
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#41 Posted by hobbyty on December 21, 2001 12:52:04 pm
Rehanhasanansari
You mean ``Hey Ram`` with in the context of Kuhn`s ``Structure of Scientific Revolutions``?
have you read this work? if not there is website with a synopsis I can recommend:
http://www.emory.edu/EDUCATION/mfp/Kuhn.html
If you get the chance and I don`t mean to presume, Poppers` ``Open Universe`` - you will enjoy.
You mean ``Hey Ram`` with in the context of Kuhn`s ``Structure of Scientific Revolutions``?
have you read this work? if not there is website with a synopsis I can recommend:
http://www.emory.edu/EDUCATION/mfp/Kuhn.html
If you get the chance and I don`t mean to presume, Poppers` ``Open Universe`` - you will enjoy.
#40 Posted by hobbyty on December 21, 2001 3:08:19 am
Rehanhasanansari
I do take your point - I wish we could just stick with plain old ``Muslim``
``State intellectual`` - yes, I would agree with you with regard to Friedman. Actually, I am coming to the conclusion that we Pakistanis and Muslims have been intellectually dishonest with ourselves, in two ways: 1. That we are ``self-conscious`` because we have no intellectual tradition, of any weight, that we value - with regard to understanding Islam and Islamic knowledge, or just plain knowledge - and that our image of ourselves itself is an import from a civilization historically hostile towards us. Pakistanis despise our weakness are in turn are despised because of our weakness, by others. The weakness of our elite has always been that they do not realize the Pakistani nation wants to, needs, to be challenged to fulfill a destiny, a vision of itself, realizing it`s ambition. Not talking about a glory war, but a nation unencumbered by feudalism, or the scarcity of education, accessible health care,access to opportunity to earn a decent living - a polical structure that actually works, institutions that reflect our values - someday, one day.
2. The process of secularization and rationalization as agents of change is an inevitablity for us, yet we have failed to see that it will not act or rather the processes will not be the same as in Europe or the West - and that these need not be the only agents of change. I am always saddened when reading a Pakistani or a Muslim at ease with every other tradition and learning except the one of his fathers. Allah have mercy on us, surely we are deserving of that.
My sincere apologies for babling - I will try find that article on the net, unless you can direct me.
Do Popper myself? I have never done any such thing before and it is obvious from the quality of my writing that discipline and editing are alien to me - but may be - may be we can still be a community of discourse.
Zafar Al-Talib
Zafar Mian;
how are you? Pot calling the Kettle black? well may be I am immoderate (who wants to think of themselves as immoderate or moderate) untactful, lacking social grace? whatever - I was pointing out Sadna and Tahmad a similar aspect of ``secular humanism`` - Religious faith and proponents of things like a ``good`` society seem now to be ``fanatics`` (immoderates) and ``psychos`` (fundohs in paklish) - well I guess it goes with the territory.
I do take your point - I wish we could just stick with plain old ``Muslim``
``State intellectual`` - yes, I would agree with you with regard to Friedman. Actually, I am coming to the conclusion that we Pakistanis and Muslims have been intellectually dishonest with ourselves, in two ways: 1. That we are ``self-conscious`` because we have no intellectual tradition, of any weight, that we value - with regard to understanding Islam and Islamic knowledge, or just plain knowledge - and that our image of ourselves itself is an import from a civilization historically hostile towards us. Pakistanis despise our weakness are in turn are despised because of our weakness, by others. The weakness of our elite has always been that they do not realize the Pakistani nation wants to, needs, to be challenged to fulfill a destiny, a vision of itself, realizing it`s ambition. Not talking about a glory war, but a nation unencumbered by feudalism, or the scarcity of education, accessible health care,access to opportunity to earn a decent living - a polical structure that actually works, institutions that reflect our values - someday, one day.
2. The process of secularization and rationalization as agents of change is an inevitablity for us, yet we have failed to see that it will not act or rather the processes will not be the same as in Europe or the West - and that these need not be the only agents of change. I am always saddened when reading a Pakistani or a Muslim at ease with every other tradition and learning except the one of his fathers. Allah have mercy on us, surely we are deserving of that.
My sincere apologies for babling - I will try find that article on the net, unless you can direct me.
Do Popper myself? I have never done any such thing before and it is obvious from the quality of my writing that discipline and editing are alien to me - but may be - may be we can still be a community of discourse.
Zafar Al-Talib
Zafar Mian;
how are you? Pot calling the Kettle black? well may be I am immoderate (who wants to think of themselves as immoderate or moderate) untactful, lacking social grace? whatever - I was pointing out Sadna and Tahmad a similar aspect of ``secular humanism`` - Religious faith and proponents of things like a ``good`` society seem now to be ``fanatics`` (immoderates) and ``psychos`` (fundohs in paklish) - well I guess it goes with the territory.
#39 Posted by hobbyty on December 21, 2001 3:08:19 am
Rehanhasanansari
I do take your point - I wish we could just stick with plain old ``Muslim``
``State intellectual`` - yes, I would agree with you with regard to Friedman. Actually, I am coming to the conclusion that we Pakistanis and Muslims have been intellectually dishonest with ourselves, in two ways: 1. That we are ``self-conscious`` because we have no intellectual tradition, of any weight, that we value - with regard to understanding Islam and Islamic knowledge, or just plain knowledge - and that our image of ourselves itself is an import from a civilization historically hostile towards us. Pakistanis despise our weakness are in turn are despised because of our weakness, by others. The weakness of our elite has always been that they do not realize the Pakistani nation wants to, needs, to be challenged to fulfill a destiny, a vision of itself, realizing it`s ambition. Not talking about a glory war, but a nation unencumbered by feudalism, or the scarcity of education, accessible health care,access to opportunity to earn a decent living - a polical structure that actually works, institutions that reflect our values - someday, one day.
2. The process of secularization and rationalization as agents of change is an inevitablity for us, yet we have failed to see that it will not act or rather the processes will not be the same as in Europe or the West - and that these need not be the only agents of change. I am always saddened when reading a Pakistani or a Muslim at ease with every other tradition and learning except the one of his fathers. Allah have mercy on us, surely we are deserving of that.
My sincere apologies for babling - I will try find that article on the net, unless you can direct me.
Do Popper myself? I have never done any such thing before and it is obvious from the quality of my writing that discipline and editing are alien to me - but may be - may be we can still be a community of discourse.
Zafar Al-Talib
Zafar Mian;
how are you? Pot calling the Kettle black? well may be I am immoderate (who wants to think of themselves as immoderate or moderate) untactful, lacking social grace? whatever - I was pointing out Sadna and Tahmad a similar aspect of ``secular humanism`` - Religious faith and proponents of things like a ``good`` society seem now to be ``fanatics`` (immoderates) and ``psychos`` (fundohs in paklish) - well I guess it goes with the territory.
I do take your point - I wish we could just stick with plain old ``Muslim``
``State intellectual`` - yes, I would agree with you with regard to Friedman. Actually, I am coming to the conclusion that we Pakistanis and Muslims have been intellectually dishonest with ourselves, in two ways: 1. That we are ``self-conscious`` because we have no intellectual tradition, of any weight, that we value - with regard to understanding Islam and Islamic knowledge, or just plain knowledge - and that our image of ourselves itself is an import from a civilization historically hostile towards us. Pakistanis despise our weakness are in turn are despised because of our weakness, by others. The weakness of our elite has always been that they do not realize the Pakistani nation wants to, needs, to be challenged to fulfill a destiny, a vision of itself, realizing it`s ambition. Not talking about a glory war, but a nation unencumbered by feudalism, or the scarcity of education, accessible health care,access to opportunity to earn a decent living - a polical structure that actually works, institutions that reflect our values - someday, one day.
2. The process of secularization and rationalization as agents of change is an inevitablity for us, yet we have failed to see that it will not act or rather the processes will not be the same as in Europe or the West - and that these need not be the only agents of change. I am always saddened when reading a Pakistani or a Muslim at ease with every other tradition and learning except the one of his fathers. Allah have mercy on us, surely we are deserving of that.
My sincere apologies for babling - I will try find that article on the net, unless you can direct me.
Do Popper myself? I have never done any such thing before and it is obvious from the quality of my writing that discipline and editing are alien to me - but may be - may be we can still be a community of discourse.
Zafar Al-Talib
Zafar Mian;
how are you? Pot calling the Kettle black? well may be I am immoderate (who wants to think of themselves as immoderate or moderate) untactful, lacking social grace? whatever - I was pointing out Sadna and Tahmad a similar aspect of ``secular humanism`` - Religious faith and proponents of things like a ``good`` society seem now to be ``fanatics`` (immoderates) and ``psychos`` (fundohs in paklish) - well I guess it goes with the territory.
#38 Posted by ZafarA on December 21, 2001 1:17:29 am
Reply Hobbyty # 37
``Hmm, immoderate? I don`t know if I would call myself immoderate.``
Hobbyty,
I am your NUMBER ONE FAN on chowk, and take it from me, you are definitely immoderate. Hence Mrs Hobbyty having to change the subject when you harange your guests on order, morality and a just society. (Remember, you told us the story.)
EMBRACE IMMODERATION!
Now - go back to your serious discussion with Ansari Saheb with a clear mind and a happy heart.
Kaise ho bhai?
Salaams,
Zafar
``Hmm, immoderate? I don`t know if I would call myself immoderate.``
Hobbyty,
I am your NUMBER ONE FAN on chowk, and take it from me, you are definitely immoderate. Hence Mrs Hobbyty having to change the subject when you harange your guests on order, morality and a just society. (Remember, you told us the story.)
EMBRACE IMMODERATION!
Now - go back to your serious discussion with Ansari Saheb with a clear mind and a happy heart.
Kaise ho bhai?
Salaams,
Zafar
#37 Posted by rehanhasanansar on December 20, 2001 10:59:20 pm
re: dost-mittar
{We should acknowledge, however, that mainstream Hindus do, and always have, considered Sikhs as their saviours and heroes, and NOT the local Hindu rajas who fought against the Sikhs.}
...ummm, everyone knows the only real heroes are spider-man, superman, and the rock...
{We should acknowledge, however, that mainstream Hindus do, and always have, considered Sikhs as their saviours and heroes, and NOT the local Hindu rajas who fought against the Sikhs.}
...ummm, everyone knows the only real heroes are spider-man, superman, and the rock...
#36 Posted by hobbyty on December 20, 2001 8:15:12 pm
Rehanhasanansari
Hmm, immoderate? I don`t know if I would call myself immoderate. I wish you had given this some more thought. Moderate in what? What characteristics or attitudes define a moderate as opposed to a Muslim?
I read an article by by T. Friedman, where in some Pakistanis had forwarded the use of the term ``enlightened`` - I must admit I like this term better (the self congratulatory, self satisfied tone of it) But seriously? there are levels or types of religiosity and types and levels of non-religious knowledge that Muslims bring to their understanding of Islam which shapes their understanding of the Word and the experience of being a Muslim. I find moderate meaningless as it incorporates in it the possibility of defining another Muslim as a ``fundamentalist`` or ``immoderate`` - which again begs, do moderates and fundamentalists differ as Muslims?? or in their understanding (interpretation) of Islamic knowledge - yes I will grant you - but it is still imprecise, divisive and therefore problematic.
Would you consider doing a piece that explores the work of Dr. Sir karl Popper and it`s implications for the interpretation of Texts?
I can`t think of a more engrossing and engaging piece for all your readers.
#35 Posted by rehanhasanansar on December 20, 2001 1:48:16 am
shankar #430 ``why are Pakistani ladies so prudish about talking about sex..especially in mixed company?``
This will be an uphill climb, and I doubt you will be successful.
Getting Pakistani girls to talk about sex is more difficult than getting Indians to talk about human rights violations in Kashmir. In public, both groups will never admit to knowing anything about these issues, i.e. they are not involved, and have never seen nor done anything.
P.S. thongs, getting girls to talk about sex; you need to get out of Michigan, and start spending some time in the more populated states.
This will be an uphill climb, and I doubt you will be successful.
Getting Pakistani girls to talk about sex is more difficult than getting Indians to talk about human rights violations in Kashmir. In public, both groups will never admit to knowing anything about these issues, i.e. they are not involved, and have never seen nor done anything.
P.S. thongs, getting girls to talk about sex; you need to get out of Michigan, and start spending some time in the more populated states.
#34 Posted by hobbyty on December 19, 2001 7:41:46 pm
Rehan Ansari
Dear Mr. Ansari:
What exactly is a ``moderate`` Muslim? Moderate in What?
#33 Posted by rehanhasanansar on December 18, 2001 1:09:36 pm
dost-mittar: ``Pamela Andersen is not the only one we have``
I must say, I am a bit disappointed in your knowledge in this area. There are quite a few more, besides Pamela Anderson. Vancouver is a big recruiting ground.
Interestingly, I believe, the current Miss Canada is of Indian origin.
I must say, I am a bit disappointed in your knowledge in this area. There are quite a few more, besides Pamela Anderson. Vancouver is a big recruiting ground.
Interestingly, I believe, the current Miss Canada is of Indian origin.
#32 Posted by Kiran- on December 18, 2001 12:48:52 am
Rehan how about writing something about Agha Shahid Ali? May he rest in peace.
#31 Posted by rehanhasanansar on December 18, 2001 12:48:52 am
Kafir Khan: You write ``It is not true judging from your comments about Jews.``
I have written hundreds of posts on chowk, and I challenge you to find ONE place in ONE post where I have made nasty remarks about ANY people - hindus OR jews or any other religion or ethnic group.
You on the other hand have written ethnic insults about pakistanis as well as about hindu brahmans.
You write ``You were rude to Bodenheimer.`` And to you as well (when you wrote ethnic insults to hindu brahmans). And to urstruly (when he wrote ethnic insults to hindus). and ali1 (ditto). and sadna (when she write ethnic insults about pakistanis).
I have written hundreds of posts on chowk, and I challenge you to find ONE place in ONE post where I have made nasty remarks about ANY people - hindus OR jews or any other religion or ethnic group.
You on the other hand have written ethnic insults about pakistanis as well as about hindu brahmans.
You write ``You were rude to Bodenheimer.`` And to you as well (when you wrote ethnic insults to hindu brahmans). And to urstruly (when he wrote ethnic insults to hindus). and ali1 (ditto). and sadna (when she write ethnic insults about pakistanis).
#30 Posted by Kiran- on December 18, 2001 12:48:52 am
Rehan how about writing something about Agha Shahid Ali? May he rest in peace.
#29 Posted by hobbyty on December 17, 2001 2:34:03 am
Dear Mr Ansari:
Eid Mubarak to you!
Yes! The act is not percieved by the ``actor`` in the same manor - it never is!
The soldier does not imagine himself the aggressive tyrant - the revolutionary does not imagine himself the enemy of ``Order`` itself, but rather see ``order`` as being out of kilter and seeks to redress. Taking action, the very idea is revolutionary - which is why ``Hamlet`` is required reading - it marks a break in a line of thinking in which man is only being acted upon. In a world self created, the creature self-conscious and self-realizing
Pakistanis or Muslims may see the transformation of the progatonist as sad, the protangonist himself may see an injurious effect (unintended consequences?) on innocents, which the protagonist sees himself as being - yet the transformation is the conformation of a percieved greater good, or for the greater good - setting ``order`` back in ``order``.
So was the Dane a reasoning individual? As Kuhn in his ``Structure of Scientific Revolutions`` indicates:
``To desert the paradigm is to cease practicing the science it defines``.
The protagonists choice of which problem is the top priority to solve by his action, is of course a question of values. It is this process and those values that are being expounded (paradigm war?)
#28 Posted by rehanhasanansar on December 16, 2001 2:21:22 am
re: dost-mittar
{we (especially Montreal) has been rated as having the best strip bars in North America}
...holy $hit...you go there?...anyway, are you coming to the boys weekend out in the baltics next month or not?...
{we (especially Montreal) has been rated as having the best strip bars in North America}
...holy $hit...you go there?...anyway, are you coming to the boys weekend out in the baltics next month or not?...
#27 Posted by hobbyty on December 14, 2001 4:13:45 pm
Dear Mr. Ansari:
In the train of human events, across time and space - being seen as actually ``doing`` something that ``handles`` a percieved problem, is what is attractive, ``sexy`` so to speak:
in the decision to act and in acting, are deposited, notions of ``the good``, character, nobility and challenege and the need to take action - ``to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or by opposing, end them.`` It is the ``taking of action`` to solve a problem, that is attractive, respected, ``sexy``.
#26 Posted by khamkhwa on December 12, 2001 2:15:06 pm
Harimou-24
[AnNy did correctly identify Faiza (one name for the 12-headed serpent Studebaker) as an Indian. However Faiza`s misogyny is caused by his madrassah education and all his study of psychology in his MBBS has not wiped out his unadulterated hatred of women. He still carries a chip on his shoulder thinking the Hindus got him.]
Faiza`s hatred for women goes beyond his/her
school days.She hates all women `coz her mom was
a prostitute in Sona Gachi,Kolkata.I have explained it in one of my poems on Chowk.Now
Chowk editors refuse to print anything from me.
One more thing,I am certain that 12head is some
how associated with Chowk Editorial Board,hence
the uncontrolled creation of new nicks for this
nitwit.Suggest boycotting Chowk for a week to
force the editorial board to ferret out the skunk.
PS:saminashah wrote many letters on the subject
to Chowk board without any response.Hence,the
suggestion for boycott.
[AnNy did correctly identify Faiza (one name for the 12-headed serpent Studebaker) as an Indian. However Faiza`s misogyny is caused by his madrassah education and all his study of psychology in his MBBS has not wiped out his unadulterated hatred of women. He still carries a chip on his shoulder thinking the Hindus got him.]
Faiza`s hatred for women goes beyond his/her
school days.She hates all women `coz her mom was
a prostitute in Sona Gachi,Kolkata.I have explained it in one of my poems on Chowk.Now
Chowk editors refuse to print anything from me.
One more thing,I am certain that 12head is some
how associated with Chowk Editorial Board,hence
the uncontrolled creation of new nicks for this
nitwit.Suggest boycotting Chowk for a week to
force the editorial board to ferret out the skunk.
PS:saminashah wrote many letters on the subject
to Chowk board without any response.Hence,the
suggestion for boycott.
#25 Posted by rehanhasanansar on December 11, 2001 4:00:14 pm
Bodenheimer #425 You claim to be a college professor in Israel. For the sake of education in Israel, I hope that is a figment of your imagination. More likely you forget your medication every few days and come to chowk to demonstrate just how full of sh!t you are.
#24 Posted by satish on December 11, 2001 4:00:14 pm
Poonawala
From a hindu Indian nationalist -
`AMEN `
Satish
From a hindu Indian nationalist -
`AMEN `
Satish
#23 Posted by harimau on December 11, 2001 4:00:14 pm
Ref Stuka #: 16
[AnNy:
``what i said was that u are a disgrace to womankind, your religion and your country...and you are...(hopefully, ull be from india) ``
Man, if that is not unadulterated hate, I don`t know what is :( Hamney tumahara itna kya begara tha??]
AnNy did correctly identify Faiza (one name for the 12-headed serpent Studebaker) as an Indian. However Faiza`s misogyny is caused by his madrassah education and all his study of psychology in his MBBS has not wiped out his unadulterated hatred of women. He still carries a chip on his shoulder thinking the Hindus got him.
Studebaker doesn`t realize that his behavior doesn`t earn him the respect of Pakistanis (except the mullah types), or of Indians.
[AnNy:
``what i said was that u are a disgrace to womankind, your religion and your country...and you are...(hopefully, ull be from india) ``
Man, if that is not unadulterated hate, I don`t know what is :( Hamney tumahara itna kya begara tha??]
AnNy did correctly identify Faiza (one name for the 12-headed serpent Studebaker) as an Indian. However Faiza`s misogyny is caused by his madrassah education and all his study of psychology in his MBBS has not wiped out his unadulterated hatred of women. He still carries a chip on his shoulder thinking the Hindus got him.
Studebaker doesn`t realize that his behavior doesn`t earn him the respect of Pakistanis (except the mullah types), or of Indians.
#22 Posted by Romair on December 11, 2001 2:58:02 am
Vereesh #14: I can only agree with one of your comments; the one about Ahmedis.
I would have to state that your knowledge of the dynamics of the Pakistani society is somewhat limited. I have found this phenomenon to be common amongst Indians. I have worked with Indians, eaten with them, etc. literally on a daily basis for around ten years, now. I have come to the conclusion Indians know very little about Pakistan. Indians tend to map the Pakistani society based on the Indian Muslim society and habits. Those are not a reflection of the Pakistani society.
Pakistanis, on the other hand know far more, about India and Indians (just like Indians know more about Islam, than Pakistanis know about Hinduism).
There are three reasons for this. Briefly, they are: Pakistanis get a chance to interact with far more Indians outside Pakistan, than vice versa. A greater portion of Pakistanis trace their heritage to India, than vice-versa. And Indian media, films, magazines are readily available in Pakistan, and accepted and followed by Pakistanis in a hugely larger number, than vice-versa.
``I earnestly state that I think none of them are threatened because they are Muslim by religion, whether visibly Muslim or not.``
You could be correct about this. My only knowledge about this is through Indian Muslim newspapers like milligazette.com, etc. And they seem to indicate that Muslims are now (``now`` being the important word herer) begining to get more and more defensive in India, as the BJP has regularly started to win elections.
``But I do get the feedback that eveybody, especially now the Indian Muslims, feel that the subcontinent could have done better without division.``
What is the reason behind this feeling? That was my initial question. For example, hardly any Pakistani Muslim would agree with this. Pakistani Muslims, of all generations that I have met, are extremely critical of Pakistan, but I have hardly met anyone who does not support the partition. Why is there such a difference between the views of Indian Muslims and Pakistani Muslims? This is the gist of all my questions.
``It is simply a statement that Pakistan was not for them.``
Pakistan was for anyone who wanted to migrate to Pakistan. It was open to anyone in India. Just like India was open to anyone to migrate to India. If Pakistan, ``was not for them,`` then it is a deliberate choice made by them. One has to respect their views. But, how can they then have any kind of an opinion on Pakistan`s creation, one way or the other.
``but not for the average man on street Muslim in India, who hears more than enough about the derogatory terms ``Mohajir````
Mohajir is definitely not a derogatory term, in any sense of the word, in Pakistan. It is infact a term coined by the urban Sindhi community, themselves. The largest party of urban Sindh calls itself Mohajir Qaumi Movement. Eveyone, including Musharraf himself, refers to Pakistan`s current President as an ethnic Mohajir. The Mohajir community, by a huge margin, in basically any field in Pakistan, is decades ahead of the rest of the Pakistan. It has, by far, the highest education rate, the highest rate of female literacy, the highest rate of industrial development, the highest number of Chiefs of Staffs, the highest percentage of Pakistani technocrat expatriates. Karachi has 80% of Pakistan`s IT companies, the highest number of universities and colleges, by a gigantic margin the highest percentage of military budget (larger than the military budget of the whole Sindh and Baluchistan province combined). It has I believe the wealthiest city in South Asia, etc. The list goes on and on. The credit of all of this goes to the Mohajir community themselves (a community which I greatly admire by the way; not counting their naive support for the militant and corrupt MQM leadership). Needless to say, the Mohajir community is easily per capita, the most successful community in Pakistan. And a Mohajir is running the country in Pakistan. Infact, he is a dictator, yet everyone from all ethnicities is supporting him. What are the odds of a Muslim running India, as a future Prime Minister? What are the odds of one being accepted as a dictator?
``the removal from Islam of Ahmediyas and other Muslim sects``
The part regarding the Ahmedis is correct. A political decision made by Bhutto, which has snow- balled into a situation, that will probably never get reversed. I don`t know of any other sect being removed from Islam in Pakistan, however. Could you name a few?
``Seems it is for the mullahs``
Mullahs are far more powerful in India, than in Pakistan. The BJP has a manifesto (www.bjp.org)that is more extreme than that of even the JUI, what to talk of Jamaat-e-Islami. And the BJP wins the elections, again and again. The recent sidelining of the religious right in Pakistan should convince you of their popularity in Pakistan. As a Muslim, one would think the strong Hindu nationalist BJP to be a much greater threat, than a very weak Muslim Jamaat-e-Islami. Wouldn`t you agree?
``So the very basis of a (theological state??) is questioned, in my humble opinion, increasingly by many Indian Muslims.``
This seems to be one of the greatest misconceptions in India. Pakistan is not a theological state. Please see my comment above. If it were a theological state, then one would think the religious parties combined would win more than 1% of the seats (they won less than 1% in the last elections). Infact, Pakistan is surrounded on three sides by three theological govts: BJP in India (with a phiolosophy based on RSS, according to www.bjp.org), clerical govt. in Iran, and the Taliban (until last month) in Afghanistan.
``Would we have more Muslims in India than Pakistan has Muslims, if people were not ``safe`` in India?``
This is a relatively valid argument. But where exactly do you expect the Indian Muslims to go. The living standards in Pakistan, though traditionally higher than those in India, are not high enough to cause a migration of Muslims from India. If Pakistan were to turn into UAE, I have a feeling a lot of Indian Muslims would be interested in migrating, if the BJP wave continues.
However, from what I have read, the Muslims felt quite safe under the Congress govt; hence the large numbers. But their seems to be a growing fear under the BJP govt., and the direction India is moving. As a Muslim, one would logically feel threatened under a govt. which has on its website, articles with the following headings: ``Pampering Minorities won`t do, ``The Hindu has changed, the Muslim has not, ``Only Hinduvta is India`s national identity,`` ``Muslims should refrain from building Babri Mosque`` etc. (http://www.bjp.org/philo.htm). You will not find any such articles on the website of any of the Pakistan`s major parties, or on any military website. As a Muslim, I have no fear that any individual, much less the ruling govt. is going to tear down my place of worship in Pakistan, as a part of its election manifesto. That must scare some Muslims in India. Wouldn`t you agree?
``Please include all sects and sub-sects of followers of Islam and tell me truthfully, are they, the Muslims, safer in India or Pakistan?``
Definitely, safer in Pakistan. One only needs to visit the BJP website to be sure of that, and visit Indian Muslim newspapers.
``The future of Bharat is set. Hindutva is here to stay. It is up to the Muslims whether they will be included in the new nationalistic spirit of Bharat. It is up to the government and the Muslim leadership whether they wish to increase Hindu furor or work with the Hindu leadership to show that Muslims and the government will consider Hindu sentiments. The era of one-way compromise of Hindus is over, for from now on, secularism must mean that all parties must compromise.
Hindutva will not mean any Hindu theocracy or theology. However, it will mean that the guiding principles of Bharat will come from two of the great teachings of the Vedas, the ancient Hindu and Indian scriptures, which so boldly proclaimed -`` (http://www.bjp.org/philo.htm)
It is obviously Indian`s business to decide whether they want Hinduvta or not, but one has to assume the above passage would scare any Muslim. I cannot imagine anything like the above being a part of a manifesto in Pakistan.
In third world countries, minorities are always worse off than majorities. Hindus are safer in in India, than in Pakistan. And Muslims are safer in Pakistan than in India. Both due to the majority factor. To suggest otherwise, would be day-dreaming.
Indian Muslims probably do feel that they would have been better off without a partition, primarily because it would have given them more strength to overcome the emerging Hinduvta wave. They probably did not feel a similar anxiety under a Congress govt. What do you think?
I would have to state that your knowledge of the dynamics of the Pakistani society is somewhat limited. I have found this phenomenon to be common amongst Indians. I have worked with Indians, eaten with them, etc. literally on a daily basis for around ten years, now. I have come to the conclusion Indians know very little about Pakistan. Indians tend to map the Pakistani society based on the Indian Muslim society and habits. Those are not a reflection of the Pakistani society.
Pakistanis, on the other hand know far more, about India and Indians (just like Indians know more about Islam, than Pakistanis know about Hinduism).
There are three reasons for this. Briefly, they are: Pakistanis get a chance to interact with far more Indians outside Pakistan, than vice versa. A greater portion of Pakistanis trace their heritage to India, than vice-versa. And Indian media, films, magazines are readily available in Pakistan, and accepted and followed by Pakistanis in a hugely larger number, than vice-versa.
``I earnestly state that I think none of them are threatened because they are Muslim by religion, whether visibly Muslim or not.``
You could be correct about this. My only knowledge about this is through Indian Muslim newspapers like milligazette.com, etc. And they seem to indicate that Muslims are now (``now`` being the important word herer) begining to get more and more defensive in India, as the BJP has regularly started to win elections.
``But I do get the feedback that eveybody, especially now the Indian Muslims, feel that the subcontinent could have done better without division.``
What is the reason behind this feeling? That was my initial question. For example, hardly any Pakistani Muslim would agree with this. Pakistani Muslims, of all generations that I have met, are extremely critical of Pakistan, but I have hardly met anyone who does not support the partition. Why is there such a difference between the views of Indian Muslims and Pakistani Muslims? This is the gist of all my questions.
``It is simply a statement that Pakistan was not for them.``
Pakistan was for anyone who wanted to migrate to Pakistan. It was open to anyone in India. Just like India was open to anyone to migrate to India. If Pakistan, ``was not for them,`` then it is a deliberate choice made by them. One has to respect their views. But, how can they then have any kind of an opinion on Pakistan`s creation, one way or the other.
``but not for the average man on street Muslim in India, who hears more than enough about the derogatory terms ``Mohajir````
Mohajir is definitely not a derogatory term, in any sense of the word, in Pakistan. It is infact a term coined by the urban Sindhi community, themselves. The largest party of urban Sindh calls itself Mohajir Qaumi Movement. Eveyone, including Musharraf himself, refers to Pakistan`s current President as an ethnic Mohajir. The Mohajir community, by a huge margin, in basically any field in Pakistan, is decades ahead of the rest of the Pakistan. It has, by far, the highest education rate, the highest rate of female literacy, the highest rate of industrial development, the highest number of Chiefs of Staffs, the highest percentage of Pakistani technocrat expatriates. Karachi has 80% of Pakistan`s IT companies, the highest number of universities and colleges, by a gigantic margin the highest percentage of military budget (larger than the military budget of the whole Sindh and Baluchistan province combined). It has I believe the wealthiest city in South Asia, etc. The list goes on and on. The credit of all of this goes to the Mohajir community themselves (a community which I greatly admire by the way; not counting their naive support for the militant and corrupt MQM leadership). Needless to say, the Mohajir community is easily per capita, the most successful community in Pakistan. And a Mohajir is running the country in Pakistan. Infact, he is a dictator, yet everyone from all ethnicities is supporting him. What are the odds of a Muslim running India, as a future Prime Minister? What are the odds of one being accepted as a dictator?
``the removal from Islam of Ahmediyas and other Muslim sects``
The part regarding the Ahmedis is correct. A political decision made by Bhutto, which has snow- balled into a situation, that will probably never get reversed. I don`t know of any other sect being removed from Islam in Pakistan, however. Could you name a few?
``Seems it is for the mullahs``
Mullahs are far more powerful in India, than in Pakistan. The BJP has a manifesto (www.bjp.org)that is more extreme than that of even the JUI, what to talk of Jamaat-e-Islami. And the BJP wins the elections, again and again. The recent sidelining of the religious right in Pakistan should convince you of their popularity in Pakistan. As a Muslim, one would think the strong Hindu nationalist BJP to be a much greater threat, than a very weak Muslim Jamaat-e-Islami. Wouldn`t you agree?
``So the very basis of a (theological state??) is questioned, in my humble opinion, increasingly by many Indian Muslims.``
This seems to be one of the greatest misconceptions in India. Pakistan is not a theological state. Please see my comment above. If it were a theological state, then one would think the religious parties combined would win more than 1% of the seats (they won less than 1% in the last elections). Infact, Pakistan is surrounded on three sides by three theological govts: BJP in India (with a phiolosophy based on RSS, according to www.bjp.org), clerical govt. in Iran, and the Taliban (until last month) in Afghanistan.
``Would we have more Muslims in India than Pakistan has Muslims, if people were not ``safe`` in India?``
This is a relatively valid argument. But where exactly do you expect the Indian Muslims to go. The living standards in Pakistan, though traditionally higher than those in India, are not high enough to cause a migration of Muslims from India. If Pakistan were to turn into UAE, I have a feeling a lot of Indian Muslims would be interested in migrating, if the BJP wave continues.
However, from what I have read, the Muslims felt quite safe under the Congress govt; hence the large numbers. But their seems to be a growing fear under the BJP govt., and the direction India is moving. As a Muslim, one would logically feel threatened under a govt. which has on its website, articles with the following headings: ``Pampering Minorities won`t do, ``The Hindu has changed, the Muslim has not, ``Only Hinduvta is India`s national identity,`` ``Muslims should refrain from building Babri Mosque`` etc. (http://www.bjp.org/philo.htm). You will not find any such articles on the website of any of the Pakistan`s major parties, or on any military website. As a Muslim, I have no fear that any individual, much less the ruling govt. is going to tear down my place of worship in Pakistan, as a part of its election manifesto. That must scare some Muslims in India. Wouldn`t you agree?
``Please include all sects and sub-sects of followers of Islam and tell me truthfully, are they, the Muslims, safer in India or Pakistan?``
Definitely, safer in Pakistan. One only needs to visit the BJP website to be sure of that, and visit Indian Muslim newspapers.
``The future of Bharat is set. Hindutva is here to stay. It is up to the Muslims whether they will be included in the new nationalistic spirit of Bharat. It is up to the government and the Muslim leadership whether they wish to increase Hindu furor or work with the Hindu leadership to show that Muslims and the government will consider Hindu sentiments. The era of one-way compromise of Hindus is over, for from now on, secularism must mean that all parties must compromise.
Hindutva will not mean any Hindu theocracy or theology. However, it will mean that the guiding principles of Bharat will come from two of the great teachings of the Vedas, the ancient Hindu and Indian scriptures, which so boldly proclaimed -`` (http://www.bjp.org/philo.htm)
It is obviously Indian`s business to decide whether they want Hinduvta or not, but one has to assume the above passage would scare any Muslim. I cannot imagine anything like the above being a part of a manifesto in Pakistan.
In third world countries, minorities are always worse off than majorities. Hindus are safer in in India, than in Pakistan. And Muslims are safer in Pakistan than in India. Both due to the majority factor. To suggest otherwise, would be day-dreaming.
Indian Muslims probably do feel that they would have been better off without a partition, primarily because it would have given them more strength to overcome the emerging Hinduvta wave. They probably did not feel a similar anxiety under a Congress govt. What do you think?
#21 Posted by Bapu on December 11, 2001 2:58:02 am
#: 12
Masd
``Mankani`s janam Bhoomi HYderabad,Sindh has become the home of hundereds of thousands of Muslims who migrated from India mainly from Rajasthan, Delhi,UP and Gujrat. The Advani Lane, Maskani Lane, Lajpat Road, Diyal Das Club, numerous homes left by Sindhi Hindus are all the symbols of a great past of this city. The Sikhs of Punjab are lucky that they can easily visit their homes left in West Punjab cities of Lahore, Gujranwala, Jhelum, Gurat, Sheikhupurs, etc and their host can welcome them with open arms without being granted the title of Raw agents or traitors by the Punjabi dominated government of Pakistan however the Sindhi Hindus can hardly visit their lost land and see their towns and cities due to the hostile attitutde of Pakistani establishment towards them. The Sindhis cannot invite their Indian sindhis friends without fearing persecution from government of Pakistan. There can be World Punjabi Congress in Lahore but holding World Sindhi Congress in Hyderabad would remain a dream for many years to come.``
Masd
Same can be said of
ALL KASHMIR CONFERENCE WITH PEOPLE FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE LOC
ALL BIHARS FROM MOHAJIR ACROSS THE BORDER COMING TO CONGREGATE IN GAYA,PATNA,Lucknow ,Kanpur OR NOW JHARKAND?
or for that matter Hyderabadi in both india & pakistan,or gujrati ,Kutchi ,Maharashtrians .
EVERY STATE WAS NOT PRINCELEY STATE LIKE KASHMIR TO BE GIVEN SPECIAL STATUS BY DECREE OF INDEPENDENCE PRIOR TO aug 47!
Masd
``Mankani`s janam Bhoomi HYderabad,Sindh has become the home of hundereds of thousands of Muslims who migrated from India mainly from Rajasthan, Delhi,UP and Gujrat. The Advani Lane, Maskani Lane, Lajpat Road, Diyal Das Club, numerous homes left by Sindhi Hindus are all the symbols of a great past of this city. The Sikhs of Punjab are lucky that they can easily visit their homes left in West Punjab cities of Lahore, Gujranwala, Jhelum, Gurat, Sheikhupurs, etc and their host can welcome them with open arms without being granted the title of Raw agents or traitors by the Punjabi dominated government of Pakistan however the Sindhi Hindus can hardly visit their lost land and see their towns and cities due to the hostile attitutde of Pakistani establishment towards them. The Sindhis cannot invite their Indian sindhis friends without fearing persecution from government of Pakistan. There can be World Punjabi Congress in Lahore but holding World Sindhi Congress in Hyderabad would remain a dream for many years to come.``
Masd
Same can be said of
ALL KASHMIR CONFERENCE WITH PEOPLE FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE LOC
ALL BIHARS FROM MOHAJIR ACROSS THE BORDER COMING TO CONGREGATE IN GAYA,PATNA,Lucknow ,Kanpur OR NOW JHARKAND?
or for that matter Hyderabadi in both india & pakistan,or gujrati ,Kutchi ,Maharashtrians .
EVERY STATE WAS NOT PRINCELEY STATE LIKE KASHMIR TO BE GIVEN SPECIAL STATUS BY DECREE OF INDEPENDENCE PRIOR TO aug 47!
#20 Posted by PoonawaIIa on December 11, 2001 2:58:02 am
Reply #: 14
veeresh
``.....It is not a question of against a separate country called Pakistan; you are Pakistani, you are welcome to your country and what you do within. It is simply a statement that Pakistan was not for them. Who was it for, then? Seems it is for the mullahs or the military or the Arabs or the other current day backers, but not for the average man on street Muslim in India, who hears more than enough about the derogatory terms ``Mohajir`` or the removal from Islam of Ahmediyas and other Muslim sects . . . I assure you, we in India would never make a law de-barring people from their religion like Pakistan has. And that is our strength and our truth:- that we are proud of this fact.
So the very basis of a (theological state??) is questioned, in my humble opinion, increasingly by many Indian Muslims......``
.....................
Veeresh
HERE IS A EXPRESSION OF CONCERN OF AN INDIAN MUSLIM MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF SOMEWHAT COLLEGE EDUCATED .RIGHT OR WRONG.
``Dear Aligs
ASAK
As its not new to all of us that any muslim institute, as a part of
political conspiracy, is being dubbed as ``Terrorist Facotory``, the
first targets on there list are ``Madarsaas``, eveyday in news papers a
question is being raised about these madarsaas, the hype is to this
extent that every bearded Maulana is being feared to be a terrorist
just like in mid 80`s when whole of the sikh community was looked
upon as terrorists.
Now the quetion arises who`ll clear these doubts, our so called
pseudo secular friends or we our self ?? Lets us relate this to the
literacy level of our society, Most of the Maulanas and Maulvis that
take up education at madarsaas are not aware (fully) of the
technological advancement and political conspiracies, they don`t evenunderstand the words and the meaning of Internet, seminars etc.The
basic reason to this is their distance from modern education,
In contrast to this, the educated part of our society is not being
able to convince others because either they lack Basic Islamic
knowledge or are maintain distance from the community once they
attain ``status``
So if the two are mixed (Deeni talim and modern education) we may
better be able answer the Blames of so called secular world, lets do
something to equip the students of madarsaas with english and modern
education and Our children studying in convents with urdu and Islamic
knowledge.
Here I`ll cite an example published in Times of India (Sunday) few
days back, Sakina Yusuf Khan, a journalist, once visited the Deoband
Madarsa, as after 11 sept. episode the Deoband connection was being
tried to make with Taliban, she in her editorial wrote that she was
highly impressed by the `` English Fluency`` of the maulana (VC of
Deoband madrsa), the interview of the VC was so impressive that it
might have cleared most of the doubts of common people regarding
madarsaas. Also I recall last year a popular hindi daily ``Amar Ujala``
wrote that ``... and Regular terrorist training camps are being held
at AMU`` to this a power ful response was made the VC asked the paper
to opologize and the matter was also sent to home ministry. This was
only achieved cause we had at that time a ``Powerful speech``
and ``Powerful Pen``, unfortunately not many of our Institutes (Mostly
Madarsaas) have this POWER.
The power of Speech and pen can only be attained when our future
generation will have a strong base of Deeni and duniayabi talim.
n this context, in my earlier message titled ``Spirit`` I mentioned
the work being undertaken by an young Aligarian , Mr. Nafisul Hasan
thru his society named SPEECH (Sir Syed Society for Promotion of
Education, Enlightenment and Communal Harmony) ,based at Dehradun is
truely in lines with the need of hour. This Society is enabling the
poorest children of our society with ``words`` and preparing them to
become a better citizen of our country who are filled with
scientific temper, patriotic and real Islamic Spirit at primary
level. Sir Syed Public School can be percieved as a model school
which has the essence of Sir Syed`s efforts and dreams where a right
combination of deeni and modern education is given to poor children
of our community. All this I have seen , felt and got impressed.
Lets pray that efforts like these touch high sky, and Inshallah one
day may be not we but our next generation will be proud of being a
part of an educated societ.....``
veeresh
``.....It is not a question of against a separate country called Pakistan; you are Pakistani, you are welcome to your country and what you do within. It is simply a statement that Pakistan was not for them. Who was it for, then? Seems it is for the mullahs or the military or the Arabs or the other current day backers, but not for the average man on street Muslim in India, who hears more than enough about the derogatory terms ``Mohajir`` or the removal from Islam of Ahmediyas and other Muslim sects . . . I assure you, we in India would never make a law de-barring people from their religion like Pakistan has. And that is our strength and our truth:- that we are proud of this fact.
So the very basis of a (theological state??) is questioned, in my humble opinion, increasingly by many Indian Muslims......``
.....................
Veeresh
HERE IS A EXPRESSION OF CONCERN OF AN INDIAN MUSLIM MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF SOMEWHAT COLLEGE EDUCATED .RIGHT OR WRONG.
``Dear Aligs
ASAK
As its not new to all of us that any muslim institute, as a part of
political conspiracy, is being dubbed as ``Terrorist Facotory``, the
first targets on there list are ``Madarsaas``, eveyday in news papers a
question is being raised about these madarsaas, the hype is to this
extent that every bearded Maulana is being feared to be a terrorist
just like in mid 80`s when whole of the sikh community was looked
upon as terrorists.
Now the quetion arises who`ll clear these doubts, our so called
pseudo secular friends or we our self ?? Lets us relate this to the
literacy level of our society, Most of the Maulanas and Maulvis that
take up education at madarsaas are not aware (fully) of the
technological advancement and political conspiracies, they don`t evenunderstand the words and the meaning of Internet, seminars etc.The
basic reason to this is their distance from modern education,
In contrast to this, the educated part of our society is not being
able to convince others because either they lack Basic Islamic
knowledge or are maintain distance from the community once they
attain ``status``
So if the two are mixed (Deeni talim and modern education) we may
better be able answer the Blames of so called secular world, lets do
something to equip the students of madarsaas with english and modern
education and Our children studying in convents with urdu and Islamic
knowledge.
Here I`ll cite an example published in Times of India (Sunday) few
days back, Sakina Yusuf Khan, a journalist, once visited the Deoband
Madarsa, as after 11 sept. episode the Deoband connection was being
tried to make with Taliban, she in her editorial wrote that she was
highly impressed by the `` English Fluency`` of the maulana (VC of
Deoband madrsa), the interview of the VC was so impressive that it
might have cleared most of the doubts of common people regarding
madarsaas. Also I recall last year a popular hindi daily ``Amar Ujala``
wrote that ``... and Regular terrorist training camps are being held
at AMU`` to this a power ful response was made the VC asked the paper
to opologize and the matter was also sent to home ministry. This was
only achieved cause we had at that time a ``Powerful speech``
and ``Powerful Pen``, unfortunately not many of our Institutes (Mostly
Madarsaas) have this POWER.
The power of Speech and pen can only be attained when our future
generation will have a strong base of Deeni and duniayabi talim.
n this context, in my earlier message titled ``Spirit`` I mentioned
the work being undertaken by an young Aligarian , Mr. Nafisul Hasan
thru his society named SPEECH (Sir Syed Society for Promotion of
Education, Enlightenment and Communal Harmony) ,based at Dehradun is
truely in lines with the need of hour. This Society is enabling the
poorest children of our society with ``words`` and preparing them to
become a better citizen of our country who are filled with
scientific temper, patriotic and real Islamic Spirit at primary
level. Sir Syed Public School can be percieved as a model school
which has the essence of Sir Syed`s efforts and dreams where a right
combination of deeni and modern education is given to poor children
of our community. All this I have seen , felt and got impressed.
Lets pray that efforts like these touch high sky, and Inshallah one
day may be not we but our next generation will be proud of being a
part of an educated societ.....``
#19 Posted by Bapu on December 11, 2001 2:58:02 am
Veeresh bhai
``To your question: may I know the basis by which you state that Muslims do not feel safe in India? Would we have more Muslims in India than Pakistan has Muslims, if people were not ``safe`` in India?``
Such argument of large number of Muslims in India belie the fact that average Hindu was never involved in the presence of Muslims in India ,if you think,a process taken place over 1000 years of history of the subcontinent .
Nor did average Muslims in the heart of India Orissa,M.P.,U.P,Bihar ,H.P. Andhrapradesh,deep inside far away from Amritsar & Murshidabad border towns could,should or would have an option of going away someplace including Pakistan.
At the time of Partition in 1947, 5 million or 1/2 crores hindu crossed into India from Pakistan & 20% less that number or 4 millions Muslims did go to Pakistan most by life & death situation ,particularly muslims fleeing away .
Even the lowest estimate of muslim population then would put it 5 crores out of 40 crores of Indians at indepence time 14 th aug1947!,i.e. about 8+%.ONLY LESS THAN 10% OF INDIAN MUSLIMS EVER WENT TO PAKISTAN.The 90% of Indian muslims after 1954 were either left in India by circumstanceses beyond them .
It almost became a rareity because after that of any indian muaslim to migrate easily even after thousands of riots like Bhagalpur in 87 & bombay 92 Calcutta63 etc.BECAIUSE ,of Pakistans ,own reluctence to consider Indian muslim plight as any goal of the mission of Pakitan .
So when you deduce any conclusion from the superficial .on the surface ,appearence of increasing number of muslims in india IT IS NEITHER DUE TO CHOICE OF MUSLIMS NOR IS IT DUE TO ANY SOCIAL STATUS GRANTED TO THEM BY THE MAJORITY IF YOU DONT CONSIDER NOT LETTING LET LOOSE SUDDEN ASSAULT OF GENOCIDE LIKE `IN GERMANY AGAINST JEWS OR AGAINST BOSNIAN,KOSOVAN ,ALBANIAN CROATIAN BY THE SERBS,AS A PREVILEGE & NOT BASICHUMAN RIGHT & CITIZENRY.
#18 Posted by DRUMZ on December 11, 2001 2:58:02 am
Anny: LOL, I like the attitude a lot. Bimbit, Ima borrow that one if u dont mind. And dont have any reservations about the four letter words. Nothing gets the point accros easier.
Rehan: How are u doing these days?
Rehan: How are u doing these days?
#17 Posted by veeresh on December 11, 2001 2:58:02 am
Dear Rehan . . . to explain Bandra and growing up pragmatic . . . the best way to understand this would be to please accept that Bandra (of all places in India) is one huge melting pot where communities of all sorts seem to co-exist without much fuss . . . from Salcette Goan Catholics with their restrictive property rules to multi-religious fishermen living within the same villages to ultra rich of all sorts to Parsees to middle class in the older buildings . . . even the street gangs in Bandra are not based on religion . . . gays and lesbians are left alone . . . the almighty rupee (and dirham, and dollar, and now Euro . . .) rules paramount . . . try an experiment, ask a lady friend to dress on successive days in a severe burqa, in a non-severe coloured burqa, a koli sari, a standard sari, a salwar-kameez, a long skirt, a very sort skirt, a pair of trousers etcetc and go through Pali Market or stroll at BandStand or visit Mount St. Mary`s area and ask her if she is treated any differently? Or go to a property broker and ask to buy / rent a flat and give Hindu / Muslim / Christian names?
Point I am making is that Bandra especially from amongst many other places is a place where you cannot but grow up realising that religious discrimination does not exist here.
From schooling onwards, and Bandra is littered with good schools run by most faiths, to the co-existence of pure vegetarian udipis right next to Miyaji meat chop houses . . .
Ah, Bandra.
This is inspiration for an article. Or two.
And Kamal Hassan, he grew up in the middle of all this. Why he moved to Madras/Chennai later on is another story which . . . uhhhhm there are confidences here.
See, I did some of my growing up in Bandra, too . . .
#16 Posted by stuka on December 11, 2001 2:58:02 am
AnNy:
``what i said was that u are a disgrace to womankind, your religion and your country...and you are...(hopefully, ull be from india) ``
Man, if that is not unadulterated hate, I don`t know what is :( Hamney tumahara itna kya begara tha??
``what i said was that u are a disgrace to womankind, your religion and your country...and you are...(hopefully, ull be from india) ``
Man, if that is not unadulterated hate, I don`t know what is :( Hamney tumahara itna kya begara tha??
#15 Posted by ZafarA on December 11, 2001 2:58:02 am
Reply Romair # 11
“…if the Indian Muslims feel that Pakistan should not have been created, does the blame go to Pakistan for creating itself, or to India for not making the Indian Muslims feel secure in India?”
Bit of both. It involves the usual suspects: TNT and Partition.
Partition resulted in a republic which was ideologically committed to being Muslim majority (a short step to an Islamic Republic? Dare I draw a parallel with a certain Jewish State with “equal rights” for all inhabitants?) and a republic whose official essence was not just indifferent, but antipathetic to the TNT (“Unity in Diversity” and all that jazz, and yes, the defects of the land of e pluribus unum are not that dissimilar).
Said republic was so diverse, however, that it included people whose Hindu nationalist views (which jive totally with TNT) had been strengthened (or perhaps even vindicated? “See, you can’t trust these people…”) by Partition. These people are bad news for Indian Muslims (and for many other Indians as well), and anything which strengthens them and their ideas has the potential to diminish the position and integration of Indian Muslims in Indian society (and threatens India as a whole, in the long run).
Their ideology is based on the TNT. They do not believe individuals of different religious beliefs can be equal parts of one nation (they may not admit this, but actions speak louder than words) and they do not believe that nations, or groups, can live together at peace without one dominating (read humiliating) the other (ditto to above, political mercantilism, so to speak).
In India they are strengthened by:
1 Pakistan’s creation in the past (TNT in action) and
2 The failure of India to put the demon back in its box in the present. Which involves
3 Systematic Government appeasement of political bullies,
4 Vote bank politics involving “leaders” from every religious group, and
3 A subcontinental tendency to enshrine “group rights” (traditionally defined rather than articulated via the ballot box) over “individual rights” (including the right to be different).
Recent events in Maharashtra (Mangle?) and Gujarat are what we can expect in the rest of the country if they get stronger.
They are weakend by:
1 Individuals of different religions coexisting peacefully and interacting peacefully (like sometimes on Chowk :))
2 Education, and the resulting demands on the state for a more competent performance rather than on essentially empty issues such as one more or less mandir/masjid in this country which has mandirs/masjids in vulgar oversupply, and
3 Respect for individual rights (including the right to be different) – that is to say, the rule of law.
Zafar
PS OK, I’m sorry that Kashmir interaction of many months ago got out of hand, but boss you pushed my buttons there…khair, I would be interested in your response to what I wrote here, and hope you reply.
“…if the Indian Muslims feel that Pakistan should not have been created, does the blame go to Pakistan for creating itself, or to India for not making the Indian Muslims feel secure in India?”
Bit of both. It involves the usual suspects: TNT and Partition.
Partition resulted in a republic which was ideologically committed to being Muslim majority (a short step to an Islamic Republic? Dare I draw a parallel with a certain Jewish State with “equal rights” for all inhabitants?) and a republic whose official essence was not just indifferent, but antipathetic to the TNT (“Unity in Diversity” and all that jazz, and yes, the defects of the land of e pluribus unum are not that dissimilar).
Said republic was so diverse, however, that it included people whose Hindu nationalist views (which jive totally with TNT) had been strengthened (or perhaps even vindicated? “See, you can’t trust these people…”) by Partition. These people are bad news for Indian Muslims (and for many other Indians as well), and anything which strengthens them and their ideas has the potential to diminish the position and integration of Indian Muslims in Indian society (and threatens India as a whole, in the long run).
Their ideology is based on the TNT. They do not believe individuals of different religious beliefs can be equal parts of one nation (they may not admit this, but actions speak louder than words) and they do not believe that nations, or groups, can live together at peace without one dominating (read humiliating) the other (ditto to above, political mercantilism, so to speak).
In India they are strengthened by:
1 Pakistan’s creation in the past (TNT in action) and
2 The failure of India to put the demon back in its box in the present. Which involves
3 Systematic Government appeasement of political bullies,
4 Vote bank politics involving “leaders” from every religious group, and
3 A subcontinental tendency to enshrine “group rights” (traditionally defined rather than articulated via the ballot box) over “individual rights” (including the right to be different).
Recent events in Maharashtra (Mangle?) and Gujarat are what we can expect in the rest of the country if they get stronger.
They are weakend by:
1 Individuals of different religions coexisting peacefully and interacting peacefully (like sometimes on Chowk :))
2 Education, and the resulting demands on the state for a more competent performance rather than on essentially empty issues such as one more or less mandir/masjid in this country which has mandirs/masjids in vulgar oversupply, and
3 Respect for individual rights (including the right to be different) – that is to say, the rule of law.
Zafar
PS OK, I’m sorry that Kashmir interaction of many months ago got out of hand, but boss you pushed my buttons there…khair, I would be interested in your response to what I wrote here, and hope you reply.
#14 Posted by rehanhasanansar on December 10, 2001 8:13:57 pm
subroto #411 This talking hound dog reminds me vaguely of someone...I cannot put a finger on it, but it reminds me of someone...maybe I know and am afraid to say it...
;-)
;-)
#13 Posted by MasdAmad on December 10, 2001 8:13:57 pm
Mankani`s janam Bhoomi HYderabad,Sindh has become the home of hundereds of thousands of Muslims who migrated from India mainly from Rajasthan, Delhi,UP and Gujrat. The Advani Lane, Maskani Lane, Lajpat Road, Diyal Das Club, numerous homes left by Sindhi Hindus are all the symbols of a great past of this city. The Sikhs of Punjab are lucky that they can easily visit their homes left in West Punjab cities of Lahore, Gujranwala, Jhelum, Gurat, Sheikhupurs, etc and their host can welcome them with open arms without being granted the title of Raw agents or traitors by the Punjabi dominated government of Pakistan however the Sindhi Hindus can hardly visit their lost land and see their towns and cities due to the hostile attitutde of Pakistani establishment towards them. The Sindhis cannot invite their Indian sindhis friends without fearing persecution from government of Pakistan. There can be World Punjabi Congress in Lahore but holding World Sindhi Congress in Hyderabad would remain a dream for many years to come.
#12 Posted by veeresh on December 10, 2001 8:13:57 pm
Dear Romair . . . the Indian Muslims I know span the full expanse of social fabric here, from rickshaw wallah to dope seller to kabadi wallah to paan wallah to meat wallah to sabzi wallah and then working upwards to the educated middle class lot and thence onwards to the hoi-polloi. I would say that 10% of my daily interaction in India is with Muslims, like most other people, and there is nothing strange about it either. 50% of these Muslims are, naturally, women.
I earnestly state that I think none of them are threatened because they are Muslim by religion, whether visibly Muslim or not. (Man or woman on street, called ``Pappoo`` or ``Tilloo`` or ``Seema`` or ``Dolly``, wearing average clothes with standard haircut, how do you tell what religion?? So how does s/he get threatened??) Yes, some are threatened because they are not rich or powerful just as some are threatened because they ARE rich and powerful.
But I do get the feedback that eveybody, especially now the Indian Muslims, feel that the subcontinent could have done better without division. All the women for sure, and most of the men too.
It is not a question of against a separate country called Pakistan; you are Pakistani, you are welcome to your country and what you do within. It is simply a statement that Pakistan was not for them. Who was it for, then? Seems it is for the mullahs or the military or the Arabs or the other current day backers, but not for the average man on street Muslim in India, who hears more than enough about the derogatory terms ``Mohajir`` or the removal from Islam of Ahmediyas and other Muslim sects . . . I assure you, we in India would never make a law de-barring people from their religion like Pakistan has. And that is our strength and our truth:- that we are proud of this fact.
So the very basis of a (theological state??) is questioned, in my humble opinion, increasingly by many Indian Muslims.
To your question: may I know the basis by which you state that Muslims do not feel safe in India? Would we have more Muslims in India than Pakistan has Muslims, if people were not ``safe`` in India?
Please include all sects and sub-sects of followers of Islam and tell me truthfully, are they, the Muslims, safer in India or Pakistan?
On a lighter note, I think Indian Muslims as all other Indians, are safer because they don`t have American Cruise missiles flying over their heads at night. As good a reason as any other.
#11 Posted by Romair on December 10, 2001 10:00:02 am
Vereesh: ``one that I increasingly hear from Muslims in India - that the biggest dis-service to Muslims in the undivided Indian sub-Continent was the formation of Pakistan.``
Do the Indian Muslims make this comment because they are genuinely against a separate country called Pakistan? Or do they make this comment because they fear the Hindu majority in India, and feel that the population of Muslims in Pakistan, combined with the Indian Muslim population, would have given them more security against the majority Hindu population?
I live as a minority Muslim in a majority non-Muslim USA. Just like Indian Muslims live as a minority in a majority non-Muslim state. However, I have never felt threatened in the USA, because of my religion. It would be great if there were more Muslims in the USA, but I do not feel a need for that just due to security reasons. I feel safe enough.
Based on the above, if the Indian Muslims feel that Pakistan should not have been created, does the blame go to Pakistan for creating itself, or to India for not making the Indian Muslims feel secure in India?
Would be interested in your view.....
Do the Indian Muslims make this comment because they are genuinely against a separate country called Pakistan? Or do they make this comment because they fear the Hindu majority in India, and feel that the population of Muslims in Pakistan, combined with the Indian Muslim population, would have given them more security against the majority Hindu population?
I live as a minority Muslim in a majority non-Muslim USA. Just like Indian Muslims live as a minority in a majority non-Muslim state. However, I have never felt threatened in the USA, because of my religion. It would be great if there were more Muslims in the USA, but I do not feel a need for that just due to security reasons. I feel safe enough.
Based on the above, if the Indian Muslims feel that Pakistan should not have been created, does the blame go to Pakistan for creating itself, or to India for not making the Indian Muslims feel secure in India?
Would be interested in your view.....
#9 Posted by anNy on December 10, 2001 10:00:02 am
faiza:
”I dont care what good intentions you may have in your heart ,i aint seen it as yet . It has been awfully long counting the period you were hurt ,thanks to your cavalier & worse than nincompoop road rage.”
Yea id like to see you driving at 11 in the night on a wet road...i hope u skid into an open manhole and loose all your teeth
”If it were one of our highways you would be in that kabrastan that urstruly mentioned in his `white charade`How about that sobering thaught.nicompoop”
So much malice auntyfaiza…kuch tau khuda ka khauff karrain
“Now to your past comments ,You think im ``Waste`` ,then you have yet to produce anything ,good or bad.When was i suppose to do things according to whims of a bought & sold nincompoop for a lousy icecream cone!A scholar who gets her history lesson fron Chitra Lekha comic & adores the navel & midriff of the scantily clad sita ,radha,parvati,durga ,saraswati .You think you are high thinking some foreign policy strategist cum diplomat?”
listen to me u silly bimbit (that’s bimbo and nitwit together..neologisms..look it up) I didnt call you ‘waste’ anything…what i said was that u are a disgrace to womankind, your religion and your country...and you are...(hopefully, ull be from india) theres nothing wrong with scantily clad sita and radha..they have waists..nice pretty waists…under the types u have some too im sure..
”Writers are ,just like human beings ,good & bad.No writer deserves respect just for being literate .”
auntyfaiza..EVERYBODY deserves respect…unless they go around swearing randomly and persist on making an arse of themselves, ofcourse
“.So who is nicompooop”
you, darling
”I dont care what good intentions you may have in your heart ,i aint seen it as yet . It has been awfully long counting the period you were hurt ,thanks to your cavalier & worse than nincompoop road rage.”
Yea id like to see you driving at 11 in the night on a wet road...i hope u skid into an open manhole and loose all your teeth
”If it were one of our highways you would be in that kabrastan that urstruly mentioned in his `white charade`How about that sobering thaught.nicompoop”
So much malice auntyfaiza…kuch tau khuda ka khauff karrain
“Now to your past comments ,You think im ``Waste`` ,then you have yet to produce anything ,good or bad.When was i suppose to do things according to whims of a bought & sold nincompoop for a lousy icecream cone!A scholar who gets her history lesson fron Chitra Lekha comic & adores the navel & midriff of the scantily clad sita ,radha,parvati,durga ,saraswati .You think you are high thinking some foreign policy strategist cum diplomat?”
listen to me u silly bimbit (that’s bimbo and nitwit together..neologisms..look it up) I didnt call you ‘waste’ anything…what i said was that u are a disgrace to womankind, your religion and your country...and you are...(hopefully, ull be from india) theres nothing wrong with scantily clad sita and radha..they have waists..nice pretty waists…under the types u have some too im sure..
”Writers are ,just like human beings ,good & bad.No writer deserves respect just for being literate .”
auntyfaiza..EVERYBODY deserves respect…unless they go around swearing randomly and persist on making an arse of themselves, ofcourse
“.So who is nicompooop”
you, darling
#8 Posted by veeresh on December 10, 2001 3:39:50 am
Dear Rehan . . . how do you or I or a lot of other people automatically assume that Gandhi`s path of self-discipline led to non-violence? I am researching currently why Mahatma Gandhi never got the Nobel Peace Prize and there is some startling information emerging.
The other aspect that Hey Ram brought out, and here I would like to state that Kamal Hassan`s thought process is quite realistic and pragmatic Indian, influenced as it was by his formative years in Bandra amongst other places, could probably be one that I increasingly hear from Muslims in India - that the biggest dis-service to Muslims in the undivided Indian sub-Continent was the formation of Pakistan.
regards/veeresh
#7 Posted by DRUMZ on December 10, 2001 3:39:50 am
Zafar, thanks for the update.
And don`t make fun of rehan, we`re close, lol.
And don`t make fun of rehan, we`re close, lol.
#5 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on December 9, 2001 8:45:52 pm
Sorry for using your board Rehan but I just wanted to pay my respects to a fine writer and
a patriotic Kashmiri, Agha Shahid Ali.
May his soul rest in piece.
Ras
From The Kashmir Times
OBITUARY
Kashmir loses its English Ghazal maestro
By Masood Hussain
SRINAGAR, Dec 9: One of the most prominent Kashmiri American and Kashmir’s only English poet Agha Shahid Ali, who was globally recognised as pioneer of ‘Ghazal movement in English poetry’ passed away on Saturday in US. Since his last public reading of his poems in April last at Baruch College, New York, he remained completely bed-ridden.
One of the finest accomplished English poets, his poetry is visibly different from most of his contemporaries. His friends term him selfless and devoid of prejudice and malice. A liberal minded, he had no hard and fast ideological commitments but was ``imaginatively and emotionally preoccupied with Kashmir``, his homeland. Critics say he was a ``poet of distances and of loss who perfected the art of narcissism``.
A widely travelled person, Agha would often make his friends laugh with his humourous anecdotes. Once, said one of Agha’s acquaintance in US, he was stopped by the security men at the Barcelona airport. ``Are you carrying anything that could be dangerous for the other passengers?`` To which Agha replied: ``O just my heart!``
And when somebody asked him about why Srinagar’s Zero Bridge was called so, he said: ``Anyway, when they started building bridges, they numbered them one, two, and so on. But there was one bridge that had existed before they started building the others, so they renamed it the Zero Bridge.``
Born to Dr Agha Ashraf Ali, Shahid grew up Muslim in Kashmir. Besides, secondary education, he graduated from the S P College and did his masters in English (literature) from Delhi University. He earned a Ph.D. in English from Pennsylvania State University (USA) in 1984, and an M.F.A. (a degree is fine arts) from the University of Arizona (US) in 1985. One of his scholarly books - T S Eliot as Editor (1986) was actually his thesis in the Ph D.
After teaching at various collegus in Delhi and elsewhere, he was keen to teach in Kashmir but ``was not encouraged``. In US, Ali received fellowships from The Pennsylvania Council on the Arts, the Bread Loaf Writers’ Conference, the Ingram-Merrill Foundation, the New York Foundation for the Arts and the Guggenheim Foundation and had been awarded a Pushcart Prize. Recently one of his collection of poems - `Rooms are never finished’ (2001) was nominated and shortlisted for the prestigious American prize - the National Book Award.
For most of his career, Agha was poet-in-residence with various American colleges and delivering extensive lectures on creative writing. Apart from Delhi University and a brief stint in Kashmir, Agha held teaching positions at Penn State, SUNY Binghamton, Princeton University, Hamilton College, Baruch College, University of Utah, and Warren Wilson College.
Says Prof Gulam Rasool Malik, senior teacher in the University of Kashmir and a friend of Agha Shahid: ``He was our visiting professor. He would spend around three months in summer here and deliver extensive lectures. However, the disease stopped this abruptly``.
Ever since Agha Shahid’s first collection of poems - Bone Sculpture (1972) was published in India, he wrote continuously. His volumes of poetry include Rooms Are Never Finished (2001), The Country Without a Post Office (1997), The Beloved Witness: Selected Poems (1992), A Nostalgist’s Map of America (1991), A Walk Through the Yellow Pages (1987), The Half-Inch Himalayas (1987), and In Memory of Begum Akhtar and Other Poems (1979). He is also the author of T. S. Eliot as Editor (1986), translator of The Rebel’s Silhouette: Selected Poems by Faiz Ahmed Faiz (1992), and editor of Ravishing Disunities: Real Ghazals in English (2000). According to some of his friends, he was working on another collection of poems - Call Me Ishmael Tonight - when the brain tumour made him unable to read, write or even to attend the telephone at his Amherst home in Western Massachusetts.
The name of one of his books - The Beloved Witness - according to Prof Malik is infact Agha himself. ``Shahid in Arabic means Witness and in Persian it is Beloved - so the blend of the two``.
Many people are impressed by Agha’s different creations. Besides, his impressive translation of Faiz, ‘In Memory of Begum Akhter and Other Poems’ are a masterpiece. This revolves round the legendary UP singer - Malika-i-Ghazal - who would frequent Kashmir and always be the guest of Agha’s.
However, it was undoubtedly ‘The Country Without A Post office’ that rediscovered his Kashmir connections and helped paint an unbiased image of the plight of the people of the Vale before the world. ``Prisons, let open your gates A refugee from Belief seeks a cell tonight,`` Agha Shahid Ali offered a speaking portrayal of Kashmir from the days of Haba Khatun to the recent days. In predominantly elegiac tone, Agha draws parallels between Sarajevo and ancient Greece and offers a series of speaking sketches of terror and torture.
The poem aptly described Srinagar as the ``city from where no news can come`` and where the post office turned simply dead-letter office (``Hundreds of canvas bags all undelivered mail. By chance I looked down and there on the floor I saw this letter to you.``). It was there where ``everyone carries his address so that at least his body will reach home,``... He has personally said that this book was his most accomplished one and: ``There’s a certain fullness of voice in it``.
(According to an unconfirmed report, Agha’s entire works are being translated into Kashmiri and the process is nearing completion.)
``We shall meet again, in Srinagar,
by the gates of the Villa of Peace,
our hands blossoming into fists
till the soldiers return
the keys and disappear.
Again we’ll enter our last world,
the first that vanished``
The above lines of Agha Shahid from his acclaimed book on Kashmir remain ironically poignant in the wake of his eternal sleep. Observed one of his fans: ``In order to put flesh to his above ethereal expression, he rushed in urgency to beseech for peace - performed a postman for a ‘Country Without a Post Office’! However, is unfortunate that he cannot see the return of those keys. And that `the first that vanished’ remains vanishing’.``
During these days when people, here, do not see an end of the tunnel - not to talk of the light, so many perplexed Kashmiris do mourn the demise of this young poet, whose foresight defied the hard realities on ground:
``No, they won’t let me out of winter,
and I’ve promised myself,
even if I’m the last snowman,
that I’ll ride into spring
on their melting shoulders``
Agha’s demise created a huge gulf, something which may never be filled. For many generations, his immortal verse shall remain a beacon of defiance and growth in apparently alien cultures. He definitely died unwed and but not unwept, at least in Kashmir, that, according to his close friends was on his mind alongwith his mother, who passed away a few years back.
#4 Posted by Romair on December 9, 2001 2:28:27 pm
I thought Hey Ram was a really good movie. I don`t know how historically accurate it was. But it was good to see a high-budget Indian art movie. Those are usually the most entertaining. I heard it didn`t do too well at the Indian box office, though.
#3 Posted by Nagnatheshwar on December 9, 2001 1:39:35 am
I have not seen this movie ,nor do i want to.Bollywood is Disney for the grown ups. Authenticity is the first thing to go before even hiring the artistes.
Even the art movies are pretend ,not real.If bollywood with all its faults , weaknesses & demerits still fail at box office it is considered an Art movie like ugly woman is told `she has inner beuty`.Cliche !
Even the art movies are pretend ,not real.If bollywood with all its faults , weaknesses & demerits still fail at box office it is considered an Art movie like ugly woman is told `she has inner beuty`.Cliche !
#1 Posted by ylh on December 9, 2001 1:39:35 am
I found Hey Ram the movie as a travesty of truth and extremely one sided in its approach. Typical Indian movie. It is sad that Mr.Ansari feels the need to bother us with his analysis of every ghissi pitti book and film from across the border.
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