The Passion of The Pacifist

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HELP TO PREVENT WAR IN SOUTH ASIA

All who value peace and human life need to intervene and stop war in South Asia. India and Pakistan are poised to engage in such a misadventure as their respective troops and missiles (possibly nuclear) face each other on their border and on the Line of Control in Kashmir. This is happening while we in the United States are busy watching the news from neighboring Afghanistan.

People of Indian and Pakistani origin especially need to wake up to the reality of what kind of misery this conflict will produce. Our armchair warmongers of South Asian origin who now make their homes outside the region, in Europe, Canada and here in the United States need to get a large dose of reality.

Some Pakistanis are arranging a peace march at a Northern California venue (exact date and place to be decided) this week and urge all from the South Asian (aka “Desi”) Diaspora and their friends to protest against the possibility of war between India and Pakistan. I hope that Americans will join us and show solidarity with the pursuit of sanity in the region. Let us have a happy, peaceful and prosperous new year in a part of the world where the misery of poverty already rules the streets. Help us stop this looming war.

Ras H. Siddiqui
Sacramento, California USA

Neptune: These nuts will warp all sorts of logic to justify their EVIL (religiously based) oppression of women.

(And I shouldnt enjoy laffing at his morbid stupidity THIS much...)

It was made clear to all that this clown has no idea of what he`s talking about. Instead of being man enough to accept criticism and admit that he was WRONG, he proves to be a bigger fool then before.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/gul.khan/main1.jpg

http://www3.sympatico.ca/gul.khan/main1.jpg

In times when there is so much uncertainty and there are (valid) arguments for both the good and the evil sides, it is important for me to have this freedom of thought that Engineer promotes. This was an inspiring interview, both in that it provided for me the challenge to have the courage of convictions and because it supports those convictions. Thanks for the inspiration. For all those who want a label and credibility, I for one think it`s time to look at the ``speech and not the speaker``. There is too much confusion in mis-representations and labels, to me, are of no use in progress.

#48

[....,lowneck miniskirt,....]

I am still trying to imagine one of those

Repply DRUMZ # 44

I especially like it when a JAHIL Imam talks about the evils of western culture and then uses THEIR dress standards to say ``U wear earings, you`re tryna be like a woman.`` Someone please explain to the Islamic world the FACT that men have been wearing earings for thousands of years, all over the damn world... Continue zafar...

ASbbe Drumzia, who you r calling Jahil, hain???

LIstn to MESSAGE, WORD AND NAME DOES NOPTMATTER!!!

wearing earing is not proper Islamic behaviours. I am advisingyou as welswisher, okay?

Reply DRUMZ # 44

“I especially like it when a JAHIL Imam talks about the evils of western culture and then uses THEIR dress standards to say ``U wear earings, you`re tryna be like a woman.`` Someone please explain to the Islamic world the FACT that men have been wearing earings for thousands of years, all over the damn world... Continue zafar...”

Now, our next lesson will be on kufic body piercing and Islamic modesty…

Amir: You`re a damn fool. First u make the mistake of playing God, then the mistake in acting like u know what you`re talking about and now u think YOURE opinion on modesty is universal.

``Non flamboyant sleeveless.``

Look, the spirit of modesty... Why the hell would I want a response from YOU???

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AAMIR: The only reason it may appear that Im going easy of your azz is cuz U dont have a damn clue on what you`re talking about.

You actually asked yourself this...

``Why do Muslim women have to cover their heads?``

And the ANSWER???

As a general rule, one should ONLY speak on sh1t they`re fluent in (U can learn the easy way or the hard way).

``Doesn`t the Koran Sharif say anything about men who dress up like women?``

I especially like it when a JAHIL Imam talks about the evils of western culture and then uses THEIR dress standards to say ``U wear earings, you`re tryna be like a woman.`` Someone please explain to the Islamic world the FACT that men have been wearing earings for thousands of years, all over the damn world... Continue zafar...

The Daily Telegraph, London

The Muslim Jesus, by Tarif Khalidi, is published by Harvard University Press

Some years ago, an agnostic friend married a Jewish woman who practised her faith seriously. He took instruction in Judaism and seemed quite likely to convert - but eventually did not. His chief reason was that he remained agnostic. But there was another obstacle that surprised even himself: ``I found that I just did not want to give up Jesus.``

In Western culture, there is no getting away from Jesus, even if you are agnostic. True, Nietzsche tried to reject him with detestation and contempt, calling him an ``idiot``, a purveyor of a sick, decadent view of the world. Nietzsche thought that the only figure in the New Testament who commands respect was Pontius Pilate. Yet the very ferocity of Nietzsche`s onslaught on Jesus showed how strong in his heart was the image he wanted to destroy.

Now, what if my friend had married a Muslim? The interesting thing is that he could have kept Jesus - not the Jesus who was the Son of God, admittedly, and who was crucified, but certainly the Jesus who was Messiah and miracle worker, who conversed regularly with God, who was born of a virgin and who ascended into heaven.

Jesus is referred to quite often in the Koran, six times under the title ``Messiah``. Yet I had long supposed that the importance of Jesus as prophet in Muslim tradition was not much more than a matter of lip service, something to which Muslims gave (to use Cardinal Newman`s distinction) ``notional`` rather than ``real`` assent.

How wrong this assumption was I have learnt by reading a fascinating and instructive book, The Muslim Jesus, by the Cambridge academic Tarif Khalidi. Khalidi has brought together, from a vast range of sources, most of the stories, sayings and traditions of Jesus that are to be found in Muslim piety from the earliest times.

The Muslim Jesus is an ascetic, a man of voluntary poverty, humility and long-suffering. He literally turns the other cheek, allowing his face to be slapped twice in order to protect two of his disciples. He teaches the return of good for evil: ``Jesus used to say, `Charity does not mean doing good to him who does good to you ... Charity means that you should do good to him who does you harm.``` He loves the poor and embraces poverty: ``The day Jesus was raised to heaven, he left behind nothing but a woollen garment, a slingshot and two sandals.`` He preaches against attachment to worldly things: ``Jesus said, `He who seeks worldly things is like the man who drinks sea water: the more he drinks, the more thirsty he becomes, until it kills him.```

Many of the sayings of the Muslim Jesus are clearly derived from biblical sources: ``Place your treasures in heaven, for the heart of man is where his treasure is``; ``Look at the birds coming and going! They neither reap nor plough, and God provides for them.``

He is certainly a wonder-worker. He often raises the dead, and gives his disciples power to do the same.

I once had a conversation with members of Hezbollah in Beirut. One of them said this: ``The greatness of Islam is that we combine Judaism and Christianity. Jesus freed enslaved hearts, he was able to release human feeling, to reveal a kingdom of peace. Jesus`s realm was the realm of soul. Jesus is soul; Moses is mind, the mind of the legislator. In Islam, we interweave both.``

This is certainly the Jesus of these stories - the Jesus of the mystical Sufi tradition. The great Muslim philosopher Al-Ghazali actually called Jesus ``Prophet of the heart``.

The Muslim Jesus is not divine, but a humble servant of God. He was not crucified - Islam insists that the story of the killing of Jesus is false. He is, as it were, Jesus as he might have been without St Paul or St Augustine or the Council of Nicaea. He is not the cold figure of English Unitarianism, and he is less grand than the exalted human of the Arians. As you read these stories, what comes across most powerfully is that the Muslim Jesus is intensely loved. There is an element of St Francis of Assisi in him. The Muslim Jesus, shorn of all claims of divinity, could be more easily held on to by my agnostic friend than the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.

One other thing: since Muslims deny the Crucifixion, their emphasis has been on the wonders surrounding the birth of ``Jesus Son of Mary``, born as his mother sat under a palm tree, and miraculously speaking from within the womb.

There really is no reason why schools that put on Nativity plays, or anyone who wants to insist on the Christian meaning of Christmas, should fear that they may offend Muslim sensibilities, for Jesus really is shared by both faiths.

Wish you all Merry Christmas and a very happy and peaceful new year.

DRUMZ (#27):

I agree with you – the holy scriptures are no patch for a truly wise human being. I believe that the living are the ones who can steer the course of society. And you do not have to be ‘holy’ for it.

Let me tell you about an incident that happened with AAE a few months ago. He was on a flight from Bhopal to Bombay with a stopover at Indore. The flight would not take off for a long time and together with some other passengers he wanted to know what was the cause for the delay. They were told that they were awaiting a VIP. They said that was no reason for this uncaring attitude towards the rest. Anyway, the VIP turned out to be the Syedna, the head priest, and his coterie. This was a full economy class flight, so Engineer was spotted. While it was everyone who protested, Engineer was singled out for the choicest abuses; reports say that at the arrival lounge he was even punched. When I spoke to him he seemed sad rather than angry. He said, “They blamed me, that I had instigated this whole thing. I wasn’t even aware who the VIP was for whom the flight was delayed. Can you imagine priests using such filthy language?”

Here are the few queries I posed specifically regarding the Syedna in the original interview, and just look at his mature attitude…

F: What if the Syedna saab calls you and tries to convince you that his position is right, would you argue with him?

AE: “I will go with an open mind. Maybe the Syedna’s truth comes to me filtered through so many layers, so why not have a face-to-face dialogue? He will know what I am thinking and I will know what he is thinking.”

F: Would you bow down to him?

AE: “Yes, as an elder, he is 90 years old, out of respect, but not to surrender to him as a religious head.”

F: And will you try to convince him of your position?

AE: “Of course.”

F: What if he does get convinced?

AE: “Well, since I am not convincing him of my superiority but of certain values, it would be a service to the truth and not to Asgharali Engineer.”

So DRUMZ, according to me this is the hallmark of a true fighter and a spirit that never gives up hope.

Farzana

Dear Mr. Narain (#14):

Re: the hard questions minorities have to face, you gave an example…

[supposing you think your religion demands wearing a burqua. But you are interviewing with a corporate firm in Mumbai, and you know that the westernized people there would be uncomfortable with it. They might not say anything to you directly, but you know that it reduces your chances of getting hired. Are you compromising your religion if you do not wear it? Are you justified in feeling angry with the interviewer for his views? Even simpler. Let`s say the normal way of greeting in India is a namaste. Are your rights being trampled if you are expected to say that instead of the traditional Salaam-aleikum?]

I assume naturally that the question is not for me specifically, so if there is this woman who wears the hijaab, then she must first realise that her religion does not demand the wearing of it :) However, if she insists on it due to her conditioning, then would she not be uncomfortable anyway in a westernised environment? Why would she seek a job there? And, if she does, the question is, must the employers look for talent and skills or appearance? In a democratic set-up people must be guaranteed their cultural identity. Regarding the form of greeting, can we not have both? It CAN be difficult for some people to fold their hands in namaste. I should think if they are forced to do something then it could become a problem. But in urban areas of India these things do not take on such important dimensions.

Incidentally, my cousins who were then living in Karachi (and were born there) were avid fans of the ‘Mahabharata’ series and they got a huge kick trying to pronounce, “Ayushamaan bhava” :) I think minorities within a country would have more confusion, what Aamir (#2) called both Engineer’s schizophrenia and mine.

Farzana

Dear dost-mittarji (#23):

[But could you share with us a little more about what is going on in the Bohra community (do you belong to this community?). I had always thought of Bohras as ``vanaspati`` muslims; so this excommunication business comes as a surprise.]

Well, the problem with the Bohra community today is that they have regressed. (No, I do not belong to this community.) There was a time when they were among the most educated among the Muslims, they were modern, went to regular schools and dressed like anyone else. Some years ago, the Syedna decided he wanted be like Khomeini, so he issued an edict that they will have to grow beards, wear caps and the women will wear a burqa (theirs is slightly different and the face is exposed); there were also stringent measures like taxes for virtually everything – birth, marriage, death. The Syedna is an extremely wealthy man, and it was quite strange to see his large extended family on an international flight once – they were dressed in regulation clothes but spoke fluent convent English. He started this ex-communication business precisely to put the Reformist Bohra movement on hold, which is what might have happened had Engineer not been such a courageous man.

But my Bohra friends who do not wear the veil or grow beards have to follow these norms when they are visiting places of worship or on certain occasions; I suppose he has softened his stand a bit. I am also sorry to mention that some within the community are not favorably inclined to fight the might of the priesthood.

Hope that answers your questions.

Regards,

Farzana

On a more ‘profound’ note, I will have to turn into a fashion writer to interview Tahmed. These days he is busy holding forth on skin texture and the unguents used to make it beautiful :)

Thanks to Prem (for reminding me of the uphill task ahead to be a better person :)), jntuece99, Ras (where did you get the idea that the Indian establishment has used him?), ylh, freethinker, Ansari, Umer Murtaza (my best? Naturally, someone else is doing the talking!), Harish (you are very kind, though believe it or not, one letter to the editor of the magazine said that I had effectively called off his bluff…I don’t understand such selective ways of reading…true I was prodding him, but I genuinely wanted answers) pmishra2 (for posting the links – I hope those who needed more information will find these helpful)…thanks for trying to understand the man and his work. I will try and provide a few more insights in other posts.

Urstruly (#3): Did you know FV sahiba when you started commenting on her writing? So you don’t need to know who Engineer saab is, just see what he is saying. Shaayad uss baat se takleef hoti hai :)

I am glad I have managed to introduce Asgharali Engineer to Chowk readers, though I assumed many of you would be familiar with his name. I notice that the regular suspects have not made an appearance here, which proves the point that a sensible Muslim is of no use to anyone – not the blabbering Mullahs or the saffron jamboree.

Who is this man? What are his motives? Does he have any credibility? These are questions that have often been put to him and to others who think well of him. I would like to share with you a couple of observations. This interview was not my first with him. I have met him a few times and always returned humbled by his sagacity and his capacity to keep going. My first meeting was at his house, a very simple home. He was gentle and a bit amused by my efforts to play big girl. He spoke about being an outcaste, but not too much. On the way out, his wife accompanied me and held my hand. She looked quite sad and said, “It is not easy.” I wondered how and why a human being must have to cope with the burden of a partner’s ideology. When I told him this time that his wife was upset because she could not attend functions, that it was a very numbing experience to be left out, he replied, “But she stood by me because it was not my self interest. My immediate family was with me. There are instances where close families broke up, children separated. My mother lived separately because she could not face the social boycott, but though she stayed away, she knew I was right and ultimately she said to hell with it and reunited with me.”

And his so-called constituency does not exist. He operates from a small office and there is no special cabin, though I was glad there is a separate room, but people walk in all the time. I would like to assure the readers that he has not reaped too many benefits for himself. I have been a critic of the ‘liberal Muslims’, but he is no film star screeching against mullahs to worm his way into the liberal mind. He speaks with a heavy Indian accent and has been educated in his country. He has no political affiliations, though he certainly has his beliefs. You will not see him at a BJP-organised Iftaar party, unlike those patented vocational liberals.

I call him an Islamic scholar due to his vast knowledge of the scriptures, his attempts to bridge the gap between them and contemporary reality and his genuine religiosity. I may not go by the Book, but the way he puts it, it does appear more spiritual rather than a hackneyed reading of a holy text.

The day I see him driving around in a shiny Merc with a house at Malabar Hill and an office at Nariman Point, giving ten TV interviews saying that his voice is not being heard and provoking people, that will be the day I shall stop listening to him. Until then, he remains among the few people I admire. The fact that this is not a gushing interview proves that you can respect a person deeply and yet ask him uncomfortable questions. This is what discourse is; not what some idiot shrills about from a podium.

Farzana,

A moving conversation that remained both stimulating and intimate. Engineer is a humanist of the first order. His elucidation of several concepts, and seeking to question sincerely rather than knock lethally, the edifice of organised religion is indeed commendable.

I particularly liked his reading that religion becomes fodder for politics because of the innate urge for hegemony. Sounds searingly reminiscent of the principle that necessity once overtaken by greed can morph into exploitative domination.

There of course is little doubt about his courage or his involvement in various humanrights activities at home.

Harish

PS: I was impressed with your questions keeping the flow and tempo of the theme alive. It held the interview from being a political deabate being carried out with another eminent mind.

Reply Glen (?) # 33

``Plz o tulba -e- momin is taleban ISLAM ?.``

They would say so.

``Its like saying Vidhyarthi is hinduism.They both name STUDENT ,u Al-Taliib ,should know you were named one --``

Well, if you want to play semantic games, Islam actually means submission. But when you say Islam do you mean the religion (submission to God) or submission in a more general sense, like in a wrestling match?

``Concentrate on my MESSAGE .``

:-(

You hid it well. Could you give me a hint?

``Just as a hijabi woman wants you to concentrate on her MIND rather than anything else of her .Dont bother what im called .In an Anonymous board its immaterial .``

Arrey phir yeh cross dressing ki baath shuru. Taubah taubah taubah. Doesn`t the Koran Sharif say anything about men who dress up like women?

Zafar

Ref Glen #: 33

[Zafar Al-Talib-------Reply Glen # 11

PS Why did you pick the name Glen? Glen kaun hai? Kam se kam kuchh interesting sa naam chunthe, like Anarkali.

Concentrate on my MESSAGE .Just as a hijabi woman wants you to concentrate on her MIND rather than anything else of her .Dont bother what im called .In an Anonymous board its immaterial]

Glen is just one more nick for the 12-head. Just like Ashok, Sadhna, Studebaker, Bhardwaj, Bijli, etc.

#: 29

Zafar Al-Talib-------Reply Glen # 11

``Why dont we see a islamised version of hinduism in the form of reformed hindu``

``More currently, Hindutva ideology seems like a pretty Talibanised version of Hinduism to me...whether that is an Islamic influence or not, is open to dispute.``]]

Plz o tulba -e- momin is taleban ISLAM ?.Its like saying Vidhyarthi is hinduism.They both name STUDENT ,u Al-Taliib ,should know you were named one --

PS Why did you pick the name Glen? Glen kaun hai? Kam se kam kuchh interesting sa naam chunthe, like Anarkali.

Concentrate on my MESSAGE .Just as a hijabi woman wants you to concentrate on her MIND rather than anything else of her .Dont bother what im called .In an Anonymous board its immaterial .

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DRUMZ #28,

``And for what reason do you list your degrees?????``

hey don`t you know, we can call on Dr. Choonawalla in case someone on Chowk goes into cardiac arrest.

Poonawala #22

``Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of Islam knows that Kafir means a non Muslim, not somoene ``who does not believe in goodness.``

Forgive me, though I have never read Quran, I also think that what Mr.Engineer says about Kafir is what the Prophet must have meant. Or inverserly, he meant that all those who believes in goodness are Muslims. If we take this into account then even a Hindu, a Christian or a Jew can be a Muslim simultaneously.

Mona

Reply Glen # 11

``Why dont we see a islamised version of hinduism in the form of reformed hindu``

Um...in the past, the Bhakti movement was a response to Islam as practiced by ordinary people (sufi Islam).

More currently, Hindutva ideology seems like a pretty Talibanised version of Hinduism to me...whether that is an Islamic influence or not, is open to dispute.

Zafar

PS Why did you pick the name Glen? Glen kaun hai? Kam se kam kuchh interesting sa naam chunthe, like Anarkali.

If you`re asking WHO this person is and still wondering what Jesus would do if he returned - you`re missin the point.

Poonawala: ``So, Engineer`s credibility is under question when he acts as an Apologist for Islam, rather than honestly confronting and accepting its faults.``

I don`t get the point in attacking his definition of Kaffir. Everyone knows what the word means, his definition is trying to stimulate thought (that he disagrees with islams idea of what a ``kaffir`` is IS OBVIOUS). Where do get the idea that he is not accepting islam`s faults? He has a WISE style. People who say ``anyone who thinks hindus are going to hell is a damn fool`` will not do well with muslims, agree? A reformer must be accepted by those he is reforming. The rest of your post was brilliant.

And for what reason do you list your degrees?????

Farzana: Breathtaking. I have never heard anyone this wise before in my life (The gita and the Quran PALE in comparision to this article-no joke).

Where would we be if Muhammed had this man for a teacher? Damn, Im at a loss for words, this dude understands the spiritual and the rational better then anyone ive ever encountered.

He represents a MOVEMENT embodying the greatest in creation.

``Many people do not know they are suffering.``

The first thing one wants to do when she wakes up is go back to bed...

``I only put humanity above religion.``

Incredible. Farzana, next time u see him say Drumz says wussup!

Dr. poonawala # 22

That is an excellent post. Thank you.

Asghar Ali Engineer presents a humane voice, one worth listening to. His fight against the obscurantism of the Bohris is inspiring.

However, Engineer makes the mistake of coming across as an Apologist for Islam, with his spurious definitions of words like Kafir. Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of Islam knows that Kafir means a non Muslim, not somoene ``who does not believe in goodness``.

As educated people we must accept what is odious in our religious traditions.

The Qur`an, in no uncertain terms, declares that non believers (both Ahl al Kitab and idol worshipers) will be relegated to Hell if they hear the message of Islam, but then refuse to accept it. It its turn, The Gita condones the caste system and warns of the dire consequences of the breakdown of the caste system.

The Qur`an, like the Bible, Gita and other relgious documents is written by Man and is deeply flawed. The God of the Qur`an can be vindictive and angry and petty (witness the punihsment he metes out to Abu Lahab, or his constant exhortations to Man to obey and adore him). The Al-Lah of the Qur`an is very much a Tribal God with tribal characteristics, modeled as he is on the Jehova of the Old Testament (again, a Tribal God of the Hebrews who helps that tribe defeat and smash other tribes). The Krishna of the Gita can be contradictory and casteist and materialistic and he too gets involved in human affairs. There is only one religious document that rises above these personal and tribal conceptions of God, and that is the Upanishad, where as Engineer points out, God is Nirgun (without attribute), and Nirankar. You will never find the Upanishadic God ordering so and so to be punished in Hell or commanding that people should travel to Makkah once a year or saying that dissolution of caste will lead to the ruin of society. This is why the Upanishad has inspired philosophers from Dara to Schopenhauer to Emerson to Thoreau to Goethe to Lord Russell. Two thousand years after the composition of the Upanishads, the same themes found expression in the mystical poetry of Rumi and other Persians.

So, Engineer`s credibility is under question when he acts as an Apologist for Islam, rather than honestly confronting and accepting its faults.

Nevertheless, we must admire his moral courage, his vision and his tremendous integrity. It is sad to see some responders like Ras Siddiqi politicizing this interview by stating that the ``use`` of Engineer by the Indian Establishment bothers him (whatever this vague remark means). Engineer is the type of man who Indian Muslims badly need to rescue them from the grips of the likes of Imam Bukhari, the Syedna, and others.

Dr Ali Akbar Poonawala

MBBS, MD

Jammu, India

I could never forget such a distinct name; alas, the history I have. Dear Farzana, would it be possible to have a little lesson on the man.

Ram-Rahim

Forgive me for being rude but do you have a cucumber up the seventh planet. Little advice: it`s getting boring, real boring. This whole `Islam this Islam that, 6th Century this and that` does not achieve anything but rather qualifies you to be just another troublemaker.

Please stay away from such crap.

Take care and best wishes

Umer Murtaza

PS. Farzana, in my humble opinion, your best article.

Like freethinker, I`d also never heard of Asgharali Engineer before this interview. Thank you, Farzana, for introducing us to him.

Dr. Engineer seems to be a gentleman through and through. Though I do not agree with everything he says, I think it is important to have such people around who show a gentler, more tolerant face to the violence that is practised in the name of religion. Too much has passed for us to ignore these virtues for the lack of an appropriate label.

And never forget; the first word of the Quran revealed to man was Read, not Kill.

``Read: In the name of thy Lord Who createth,

Createth man from a clot.

Read: And thy Lord is the Most Bounteous,

Who teacheth by the pen,

Teacheth man that which he knew not.``

- Chapter 96 (al-Alaq), ayahs 1 - 5

Aamir

This brother Asgharali Engineer is too logical, modern and secular to boot; therefore a threat to 6th Century ‘true’ Islam. Hope a Mulla (‘Commander of Faithful’ may carry more weight) will issue a fatwa (and a large award, preferably in US dollars) to kill him.

Every one should have the right to express one`s views. If the method of expression is deliberately malicious, it should require censure. One doesn`t have to necessarily accept the traditional majority views when such views have a bearing on one`s individual beliefs. If one feels strongly enough, he may choose to repudiate such views in print. The traditionalists should understand that a difference of opinion can exist and it usually does. One should be tolerant enough to accommodate a differing view and should not resort to abusive, accusatory, or degrading and debasing criticism because majority of the people in the world also have a differing view.

It is a fact of life that the majority of the people in the world are not Muslims, nor are they Christians, Hindus or followers of any single religion. One may believe that one`s own religion is better than the others or even the best of all (otherwise why would one believe in it?) but one should refrain from cursing others who do not believe in that religion. There are atheists, agnostics, secularists, skeptics, so on and so forth, in the world just as there are the religionists. They are no less human beings simply because they chose to break away from the traditional way of thinking and belief. It is a much difficult thing to break away from a traditional religion in which one was born than to continue living in it. Such an act is accursed almost in every religion but one has to live with one`s conscience. One doesn`t break away without a reason. A person who chooses to come out of the box is a bold person. There are probably many people who do not honestly accept the traditional beliefs but do not express their views because of social pressure and fear of adverse incidents to themselves and their families.

I had never heard of Dr Asghar Ali`s name before (probably my ignorance) but I wish him well. I do not have to know a person`s background or personal life to discuss his published views. I prefer to critique one`s published views rather than his personal life or family background. And if I have nothing constructive to contribute, I should better keep quiet. Ras Siddiqui`s style of expression is a healthy way of criticizing.

Happy New Year to the Chowk readership

ref: Glen #11

``....being part of a country which after more than 1000 years of interaction with muslims have refused to accept it & still tries to change islam into its own acceptable version.Why dont we see a islamised version of hinduism in the form of reformed hindu rather than forcing muslims to give up non veg habit ,role of females ,spiritual inspiration from mecca etc.``

First of all, Hinduism has changed tremendously since it came into contact with Islam. We have been hard at work trying to incorporate its message of universal brotherhood into our religion. Also I don`t think the hindus have any deep conflict with Islam as regards the more spiritual, godly matters. Its the social customs that are a source of tension. I cannot understand why god should care what I eat, whether I shave or not, which direction I pray in or in what language, or whether the women wear bindis or cover themselves in burqas?

But tell me Glen,to reverse the question on you: has Islam changed at all to accomodate Hindu beliefs in the 1000 years or so of their co-existense? (The poor sufis who tried are now relegated to the fringes of Islamia, considered only borderline muslims) This could either be becoz hindusim has nothing to offer, or becoz muslims are afraid to take it. Which do you think?

-narain

PS: who is forcing muslims to become vegetarians? :)

I have always admired for Asghar Ali Engineer has had to say.

Glen 11 writes:

----

Why dont we see a islamised version of hinduism in the form of reformed hindu rather than

forcing muslims to give up non veg habit ,role of females ,spiritual inspiration from mecca etc.



I have no idea where you have picked up these

rumors. Fact: meat-oriented cuisine especially

with muslim influence is a huge hit in India

(hyderabadi, bhopali, lahori, ....) and is

consumed everywhere. It is generally considered more sophisticated than the local regional

cuisine. Perhaps you are confusing

some backward areas like Uttar Pradesh with

India. Even there the BJP will be toast after

the next election if other groups (UP is 18%

muslim, 14% dalit) can get their act together.

As for role of females, growing up in Calcutta,

I saw 100`s of women in the street wearing Burhka.

Some still do and nobody gives a damn about it.

Spritual inspiration from mecca..., hmmm, do you

mean wahabism or truly mecca. Cults like wahabism

are not in favor but I dont think people care much

about whether you pray facing mecca or banaras.

India is a large country with a lot of diversity.

The North and West of India have gotten closer

to a ``pakistani``-style hate-the-other culture

(thanks guys!) but the south and east are quite

different.

dear Farzana,

Thank you for a very thoughful and interesting interview. You asked all the right questions.

One of your most insightful questions was regarding the right of a (cultural) minority to retain its identity and how to deal with the resultant pressure to conform to the majority.

My own feeling is that when our constitution guarantees a citizen the ``right to life``, it gives him the right to create and maintain his own identity: religious, cultural, ethnic etc. becoz to ``live`` life is to live it the way you want to. Thus to DEMAND conformism is unconstitutional (not to say just plain wrong!). That is all very clear and black and white.

But living in society inevitably means compromising somewhat. The grey area is about where one draws the line. How much should one compromise? And if one is compromising, does this constitute domination by the majority?

For eg: supposing you think your religion demands wearing a burqua. But you are interviewing with a corporate firm in Mumbai, and you know that the westernized people there would be uncomfortable with it. They might not say anything to you directly, but you know that it reduces your chances of getting hired. Are you compromising your religion if you do not wear it? Are you justified in feeling angry with the interviewer for his views? Even simpler. Let`s say the normal way of greeting in India is a namaste. Are your rights being trampled if you are expected to say that instead of the traditional Salaam-aleikum?

Melting into the melting pot is always a very painful process. But who is to blame for it? Is it really such a bad thing? What should be saved? These are the harder questions that all minorities have to face.

-narain

Ras Siddiqui # 12

?Although I do not agree with the notion that he is a ``Islamic Scholar`` ?

Ras,

Could you explain why you think Dr Asgharali Engineer is not an ``Islamic Scholar`` and what in your opinion it takes to be an ``Islamic Scholar``.

Regards,

Faruk

I have been following the writings of AAE for quite a while now. I also know that he has been under a ``boycott`` from within the Bohra Community.

Although I do not agree with the notion that he is a ``Islamic Scholar`` but he does appear to be rational humanist and makes some reasonable arguments.

I do not know what his differences are with other Bohras in their practice of faith, but he does come across as someone to listen to.

And it does bring us to the question whether rigid dogma or freedom of religion is the answer for Muslims today. I am for the latter and choose to boycott irrational fanatics myself.

Thanks Farzana for introducing CHOWK readers to AAE. I do not agree with some of his views and his use by the Indian Establishment on occasion.

Ras

Urstruly # 3

Asgharali Engineer is a renowned Islamic scholar, Bohra reformist, and Human Rights activist. Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer, who has been a Vice President of the PUCL (People`s Union for Civil Liberties )for a number of years, has dedicated his life for securing liberties granted by the Constitution of India but denied by the Bohra priesthood, Syedna to his followers. Syedna, who run a State within the State, is very intolerant of any opposition to his fiat.

He has wriiten a few books too. I think he wrote ?The women of Islam? and ?lifting the Veil? but I am not sure.

Regards,

Faruk

Its a sad out come of a restless soul(mr.Engineer) caught in the turmoil of conflicting loyalties to sub sect of Bohra to belonging to larger muslim ummah ,yet being minority to non muslim hegonomy .

It needs more than unusual resilience to make sense out of these conflicts .

Most of assertion of mr.Engineeer are OPINIONS rather than backed by religous text of any religion.As a tesimony of his agony & pain it is admirable but as a solution to Hindutva in india ,iam afraid muslims like Kashmiris ,who have yet to make there final discision will buy these conditions for being part of a country which after more than 1000 years of interaction with muslims have refused to accept it & still tries to change islam into its own acceptable version.Why dont we see a islamised version of hinduism in the form of reformed hindu rather than forcing muslims to give up non veg habit ,role of females ,spiritual inspiration from mecca etc.

Thanks Farzana for such a beautiful article.

I am proud and ashamed at the same time.

Thanks once again,

jntuece99

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I wont comment on the responses to date on Farzana`s interview. Their small-mindedness and

aggressive language speak for themselves.

Asghar Ali Engineer is a distinguished scholar

and social activist in India. He is a critic

of the right-wing extremists (Shiv Sena, Bajrang

Dal, Wahabi fundamentalism, fundus in the

Bohra community) of all kinds. Here are links to

some of his writings:

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/aboutus/asghar.htm

http://www.vedamsbooks.com/no14547.htm

http://www.unu.edu/unupress/unupbooks/uu12ee/uu12ee0k.htm

http://www.secularindia.com/BJPandminorities.htm

http://www.addall.com/Browse/Detail/187938325X.html

Hamzad Afaqui

Engineer makes sense. You do not. The Holy Quran

and Islam flourish today, not through misguided `watchdogs`(screaming blasphemy) like your yapping buddy, Qazi Shaikh Abbas Borhany, but because it protects itself. Butt out. You`re both `bad for business`.

Farzana,

Marvellous...

AAE is what many of us strive to be, although that is a very difficult challenge for the lesser mortals like us.

Thank you, F, for bringing this interview to us.

hamzad#2:

What exactly is wrong in being a ``pacifist``? If secular humanism is as repugnant to you as witch doctoring, maybe you ought to take a closer look at yourself. As for ``enlightened`` maulvis, please.... and let`s not even START on ``Islamic science`` and extracting energy from jinns...

Always had this impression of Bohras being the bright happy face of Islam.... If the Bohras can excommunicate one of their own for ``daring`` to oppose the Syedna, it reflects badly on them and their alleged liberal-ness.

Can`t comment because I have absolutely no idea who Engineer Sahib is. Farzana, please write a note in the reply section, as to who this person is-and if possible paste some cut`n`paste links to his work.

THank you

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Bufoons like Asghar Ali Engineer are a dime a dozen.These are the unqualified,uneducated,street people who are mistaken for having acquired some learning simply because they are making every effort to mould themselves into western norms & practices.

Like the Roman Catholic church they are constantly trying to convince others that given enough gallup-polling the church will fine-tune itself to the Satanic religion of Secular Humanism.

These witch doctors want to practice medicine & insist that the rules of the medical establishment are too rigid to be accomodate these innovative methods.If Asghar Ali Engineer wants to acquire some learning he must enrol at some reputable madrassah & sit at the feet(very humbly,mind you)of some maulana [they speak read & write better english,french,german--can explain science better than hawkins AND know more than any Harvard/Cambridge type).In case the poor fellow is deluded that most people who follow Maulana Tahir Saifuddin are stupid or ``common folk``,he is sadly mistaken.It is just that they write him off even when they take a look at such secularistic bimbaas.

Such as his kind appeal to a dwindling ``uneducated`` contituency which for one reason or another want legitimacy of a fatwa for letting their kids drink,date,fornicate,appear foreign at home,be homos,spurn eastern superior values for inferior western ones & not adopt superior western values.

If they get rejected & ostracised by their community community it does not mean that because of this persecution complex he is right----so many illegals get deported from US but they themselves have to be blamed.ASghar Ali(& his ilk) must be treated with the same contempt as that for an illegal alien.