Is Jehad Passe’?

Re tahmed (#132):

Quran requires us to believe in all prophets of God. This includes belief in prophets raised since the times of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), if that is indeed possible. This “possibility” should be given its due consideration.



You oversimplify things when you exclaim that being a decent, caring human being is important, while being concerned with prophethood is not. Imagine this type of simplification by a “decent, caring” Jew at the time of Issa-ibne-Marriam. This Jew would end up viewing Issa’s prophethood as largely irrelevant. It is only in hindsight that we better appreciate the prophethood of Issa-ibne-Marriam. Clearly being a caring and decent human is important, but a true prophet should be accepted by one since Allah raises prophets according to His divine plans and commands obedience from us.

Allah breathes spiritual life, His spirit in people when He raises a prophet to guide them. Prophets are sent as people go astray from the path of righteousness and when corruption and moral decay sets in. Prophets are men of pristine belief in God, they are divinely guided and protected, and they set shinning examples for their followers. They remove the cover of darkness from the hearts of the people and bring to light the truth and beauty of the message of God. Quran mentions many such prophets … Lot, Hud, Ishmail, Solomon, David, Issac, Shoaib, Jonah, Joseph, Zackariya, John, Jesus … to name a few. Through these prophets God provided humans with much needed guidance and saved mankind from sin and moral decay.

Islamic world of today also suffers from rampant sin and moral decay. It is at one of its lowest points in its 1400 years of history. It has become infested with corruption, dogma, and sectarian differences. Belief in a Glorious and Magnificent God has been replaced by belief in a trickster God whose prophets parted the ocean, raised the dead, flew from one city to another, were taken up to the skies to meet God, controlled jinns, spoke with animals, reside in the sky even after two thousand years of birth, and more. Muslims are trying to please maulvis or pir Sahibs. Islamic traditions of piety and simplicity are replaced by extravagant social customs … stuffing ourselves with food and exploding fireworks, instead of spending time in remembrance of Allah and giving to the needy … whether it is eid, Shabe-Qadar, ramadan, Mohorram, or any other event …

Muslims have stopped making headlines in scientific journals. Most Muslim countries are surviving on foreign aid and are getting ever closer to bankruptcy. Dig this … all our scholars are actually waiting for a two-thousand year old prophet to descend down from the sky, fight the one-eyed monster riding a giant, fire-breathing donkey, convert the world to Islam, and lead the religion of Allah to its final victory.

A handful of Muslims do not subscribe to such absurd ideas, but they are small in number. Ironically they are probably outnumbered by those who claim to be Muslims but in reality are not much interested in Islam anymore. Islam has been split into 70+ sects … each is full of hatred for the other … each is heavily politicized … several are heavily armed. Muslims of the world are not sure of Islamic teachings regarding befriending Jews and Christians, if/how to punish an apostate, what is an “Islamic” state, what should be the rights of minorities in an “Islamic” state, when/where/who to wage jihad against, scope/need of blasphemy laws … heck, they cannot even decide who is a Muslim … and that if they even need to decide who is and who isn’t a Muslim.

When decline has set in this deep, on a scale this large, only a prophet of God can deliver the people from corruption and moral decay. Otherwise Islam will continue to become a fairy-tale religion of dogma and absurd ideologies, divorced from the realities of life, that one can no longer apply to one’s life.

There is no power on earth that can get the Muslims out of their current state of corruption and moral decay. If one disagrees with this, I would like to hear how he thinks reformation of the Muslims will ever come about. How Quran, a book that mainstream Muslims either no longer understand, or do not care to follow, will make them see the light? How is Quran, a stack of bound, printed papers, alone expected to help people who have gone astray and are neck-deep in a social and spiritual turmoil? Quran has been there all along … if it has not worked all this time … why would it work now?

If you do not care about the finality of prophethood or are not interested in spending your time rating prophets (as you stated), then feel free to ignore this post. However, it is worth noting that you felt strongly enough about “finality” to declare my position “wrong” on this issue. I firmly differ, and would state once again that finality of prophethood has no Quranic basis at all. It remains one of the many concepts misunderstood by the mainstream Muslims and can be negated in the light of Quranic verses with relatively simple arguments.

There is a lot more to this issue that needs to be understood … perhaps more than you may have realized thus far. But that’s enough for now …



Asad

Sattar2 #119 #120

Re Fatimah (#109):

In a brief response to your post … yes, both shia and sunni Muslim sects believe that Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the final, last prophet. Ahmadi-Muslims disagree with both sects in this interpretation.

Since I follow Quran where Allah has chosen the word “Islam” for my faith, I consider myself a Muslim. Therefore I cannot accept as valid any claims calling me a non-Muslim. Discrimination against Ahmadis, or any other sect, or religion has basis in Islam.

AsadSb.

Assalam Aleikum

Whereas i wanted to dileanate the crux of difference ,I would be telling lie if i meant DISCRIMINATING against you,Ahmedie or any other religion judeaism,zorasthtreianism,christianity ,Hindu ....you name it .

There is lot of maliceous hate being spread against muslims by Hindians mostly by implying that Muslims ENDORSE discrimination against non muslims & other religions.You perhaps can do me a favour to explain from Ahmedie victim point of view that muslims as a majority ,do not have anything against Ahmedie or any non muslims by religion.

re harimau 116

Don`t you know that if Muslims do it it is okay but if others do it, it is persecution and discrimination?

Look around the world. I am ashamed to say that Muslims in minorities (and their patrons in the Middle East and OIC) demand the same rights for themselves that they will NEVER willingly give to minorities in Muslim countries. The problem is that the world is now waking up to this double standard where mosques can be lavishly built in sight of the White House and St Peter`s BAscillica but a Christian can be beheaded for entering Mecca and Copts have to wait for police permission (for fifteen years sometimes) to fix the bathrooms in their churches.

If Muslims in the predominantly Christian countries were treated like the way Christians are in most Muslim countries, there will a human rights disaster in our hands.

sattar2 #119 I think you are complicating the issue by stating your recollection of what we discussed and what you think we agreed or disagreed on. In fact to me issues like the finality of prophethood as what I call ``mullah issues`` (interest issue is another one, and the goal is to make the mullah the power-broker in muslim societies) - they are red herrings that are not important. The important issue is: do you live your life like a decent human being, do you care for your fellow man, do you exercise your intellectual capacity (the reason God created man, per the Quran), do you think for yourself or do you follow other men, and so on. Since mullahs fail in all these respects, they have created issues that are clearly of minor concern in the Quran. So, I dont care whether you are right or wrong in the question of the finality of the prophethood, and I dont care to spend my time rating prophets either. Prophets were mere messengers, and by focussing on them you are not focusing on the substance of religion which to my understanding is as I have stated above.

narain, shammi

BJP has been making a lot of noise, i suppose for domestic consumption more than anything else, and comes across either as bellicose or immature or both.

I would like india to have a plan (frankly i don`t know what it would be not being an expert on these things) and carry that out instead of making a lot of noise. Prove that you mean business. Do not antagonize the pak citizens. They and we have a common enemy - the pak military. Their military`s clout derives from having an enemy in india. Neutralize that clout. Render them defenseless. Attack their navy, their GHQ in response to terrorist attacks. I realize these are easier said than done. IMO india`s gravest mistake was to legitimize mushy`s rule by talking to him. He is our implacable foe. He is the one that has the blood of hundreds of indian soldiers on his hands and he epitomizes everything that`s wrong in indo-pak relations. Undermine him, not the pak citizens.

Instead our approach thus far has been to hit out at ordinary pakistanis.

Sorry i don`t have any pat answers.

Vajpayee MUST meet Mr. Musharraf in Nepal.

And tell him -- face to face -- that the attack on Indian Parliament by Musharraf`s countrymen -- was an unbridled -- ACT OF WAR.

And ask Mushrraf if he understands the GRAVITY of that ACT.

And ask how it could happen -- again -- even after a personal WARNING that was coveyed to Mushrraf -- after the attack on J&K Assembly that -- that kind of ``stuff`` was -- WAY OUT OF LINE.

Vajpayee must ask Mushrraf -- who is in-charge in Pakistan -- Musharraf or that CONVICT Azhar?

Vajpayee must ask Musharraf -- man to man -- one simple question -- do you want A WAR with India, general?

If you want a war -- you WILL have a WAR with India -- if you don’t want A WAR -- then go home and crush your home grown Jihadis -- and show the world the EVIDENCE that you did that -- no TOKENISM

Tell him that the use of Jihadi ``forces`` -- as an instrument of Pakitan`s foreign policy -- to achieve political and regional goals -- is a BANKRUPT idea -- whose time -- that never was --has passed.

To use Lashkariyas and Jaishi -- Jihadi “forces” -- to ``bleed`` Kashmir or ``bleed`` India -- will bring NOTHING BUT WAR and DESTRUCTION for Pakistan -- as it did for AFGHANISTAN.

Ask Musharraf -- if he has drawn proper conclusions -- from post September Afghanistan -- that the country -- or the government -- that HOSTED and EXPORTED Jihadism outside its borders -- was literally torn into bits and pieces by its own extremism -- and by a WORLD’s -- Daisy Cutters -- that would finally have none of it – any longer.

Shouldn`t that be an eye-opener and a LESSON for those in Pakistan -- who dream of such bloody dreams.

And for you Mr. Vajpayee -- for heavens sake -- DON`T stop the SUMJHAUTA TRAINS and the BUS SERVICE between the crying families of India and Pakistan -- for the follies of some demented generals of the Pakistan army.

It`s NOT the fault of the people of India and Pakistan.

WAR is – NOT or NEVER -- was an option for the impoverished masses of India and Pakistan.



hasan

RanaRansher #112 But seriously...(my post below represents the type of attention jerks like you really deserve in my view, but anyway, here is a serious response to your serious questions):

(1) You write: ``The sexually laced dig about houris is aimed at any dim wit who believes that stuff about the Jihadi way to heaven.`` BS. This ridicule is aimed at all muslims. How many muslims on chowk do you see writing sexually-laced stuff about Islam?? You are just a smelly, low-class, muslim-baiting, sob. And a liar...as your whining about ``...dig about houris is aimed at any dim wit``.

You come to chowk with one purpose only: to mock muslims. You are incapable of having an amicable discussion, incapable of any real humor, incapable of behaving like a human being on an anonymous forum like chowk...

I think I have responded enough to your serious questions and wont waste time with your remaining post.

Ranaransher #112 The only thing more pathetic than a dimwit is a crazed dimwit.

Lie down on your back, take a deep breath, and start repeating:

``Ommmmmmm

Ranaransherrrrrrrr

May beeeeee

Moron of the Yearrrrrrrrrr

Ommmmmmmm

But

Ranransherrr is a Proud moronnnn

Ommmmmmmm

And what is tahmed???

tahmed is just a converrrrrrt

a descendant of the sudras

a damn muslimmmmmmmm

a damn pakiiiiiiiiiiii

Ommmmmmmmmmmm

But

Ranaransherrrrrrrrrrrrr is High Caste

A little slow in the cranium but...

A High Caste Chap

Proud Moron of the Yearrrrrrrrrr

Ommmmmmmmmmm Shanti

Ommmmmmmmmmm Shanti``

That should calm you down. If it still doesnt work, try standing on your head every morning and then repeating this mystical verse.

Who knows! You could even become the leader of your own cult one day!!

Dear Fatimah:

Now that`s a strange request from you to Mr. Sattar -- ``If YES ...then you must not `fight` discrimination as being mainstream muslim.``

As if Mr. Sattar -- has moved -- by his own choice -- from mainstream -- to an ``enviable`` position of a persecuted minority.

Mr. Sattar MUST FIGHT discrimination for being unfairly, immorally and forcily pushed -- by the likes of ZABs and ZIAs -- from the ``Muslim Mainstream`` ---- (if there is -- any -- anywhere -- anyway).

shammi #100 Agreed. As I said, it would be a tragedy that brave soldiers and innocent civilians on both sides were to die on account of these criminal organizations (LeT and JeM). There is no place in a civilized society for nongovernment organizations that seek to change the social order through force.

OmarAkram #104:

``I do agree that people have persecuted the Ahmedis viciously which is wrong, but there is still no denying the fact that their interpretations are quite contrary to what I have firm faith in and that does not make them muslim in my eyes...``

IN DEFENCE OF AHMEDIS:

Let me state at the outset that I am an Indian Hindu and have no stakes in how Pakistan treats its Ahmedi citizens. My comments below are purely in order to share my views in this debate. I know we in India/Hinduism ourselves have a long way to go in the way we treat our fellow-citizens/co-religionists.

I do not understand why Ahemdis have to be treated the way they are just because they do not believe in the finality of the Prophet. Those of you who have lived in the US, Canada, UK etc - how would you feel if these predominantly Christian countries persecuted those who did not believe in the finality of Jesus as the last Prophet.

Some people have objected to Ahmedis describing themselves as Muslims - who defines what a Muslim is and what a Muslim should believe? Any body who declares himself to be a Muslim (or of anyother religion), he should be respected as such. Those who would like to brand Shias, Ahmedis etc as non-Muslims must learn to live with and tolerate differences even within their own religion. Take a look around - all religions have difference sects that believe in different things. Hindus have Shaivism, VAishnavism, myriad beliefs in different Gods, Christians have Catholics, Protestants and further subdivisions, even small religions in India like Buddhism has Hinayana and Mahayana sects. Differences are inevitable - it is the nature of people. Learning to live with differences within our own religions would help us to tolerate differences with other religions, IMHO.

http://www3.sympatico.ca/gul.khan/main1.jpg

http://www3.sympatico.ca/gul.khan/main1.jpg

i think this is purely case of trying to use a sledge hammer to kill a fly.Yes terrorist problem in India is not new .There are Verappan ,Dawood ,Gowle ,Naik Naxalites ,Maoist ,Bodo & many non kashmiri terrorist that India cannot manage itself ,how can it only EXPECT pakistan to do the impossible whithout showing how India itself tackled or eradicated the problem.

I think like Reagans Libyan bombing ,or Saddams War it is more question of convenience than necessaity.But god forbid if India gets nuclear burnt in this expedition it would not be a smart exoperimentation.

Look at P.M. statesman like demeanor & Indian hawkish belligerent war cry

Wonder who is commando &who is non military back ground here

http://headlines.sify.com/popwin.html

Pakistan will never initiate war: Musharraf





Islamabad, Dec 28

Pakistan ``stands for peace`` and will never initiate a war, its leader General Pervez Musharraf said Friday.

``Pakistan is passing through a difficult stage. There is tension on the border,`` Musharraf told a dinner gathering at the presidential palace.

``Pakistan stands for peace, we do not want war. We will never initiate a war unless it is thrust and imposed on us.

``We do not want war because we understand all the hazards that could follow,`` he said.

In another statement, Musharraf said he would be willing to meet Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee during SAARC summit in Nepal next week.

``I don`t mind meeting him (Vajpayee). But as I said once before, you can`t clap with one hand. And if there is a willingness from the other side, then there is a willingness from my side,`` he told reporters.









http://headlines.sify.com/popwin.html

It`s time for the decisive war,says Advani







New Delhi, Dec 28

Accusing Pakistan of carrying on a consistent war against India, Home Minister L K Advani Friday said New Delhi would now wage a ``decisive`` battle to put an end to Pak-sponsored terrorism.

``Although they have faced defeat at our hands several times, they never stopped fighting against us. After the three wars they fought with India, they have been waging a proxy war against us which reached up to the Parliament House,`` Advani said, while speaking at the CRPF Day here.

The neighbouring country, he said, had now crossed all limits and given India the greatest challenge ever by attacking Parliament. ``We will now wage a decisive battle against their proxy war irrespective of the support we get from other countries in this war against terrorism,`` the Home Minister said.

Asserting that India would fight this battle on its own strength, he said, ``If the other countries support us, it`s well and good. If they don`t, we are not bothered.``











UNI

While there is no error proof discision ,the good honest effort to re evaluate certain principles of Islam need to be discussed by all muslims.What if the act it self may be Non Islamic but acted on by muslim named individuals.?

tehrantimes.com

- Friday, December 28, 2001

How to Counter Terrorism?

By Dr. Mohsen Esmaeili Univ. Professor,

Holding the scientific seminar ``Terrorism and Legitimate Defense from the

View of Islam and International Law`` was an appropriate and laudable

measure taken by the Judiciary, especially considering the present

circumstances in the region and the world.

The undeniable fact to all those who are not at the service of the

illegitimate interests of global arrogance is that the fight against

terrorism, like all other noble concepts and human ideals, has

unfortunately turned into an instrument for suppressing the rightful

demands of the oppressed people throughout the world. Anyone with common

sense would surely condemn terrorism. Intentional violence with political

motives is a sharp but two-edged sword that destroys both the agent and

victim of terrorism. This ugly phenomenon is a stinking quagmire, getting

out of which is impossible.

Islam, this lofty religion, compares political assassination of one

individual with the killing of the whole mankind and considers the

ramifications of this social and political menace to be much more serious

than simple murder. Thus, it is very surprising that the Islamic school of

thought, which condemns terrorism in all its forms and with any motives,

is today charged by the real promoters of international violence with

supporting terrorism! And more painful is that some ignorant radicals or

knowledgeable but dishonest individuals prepare the ground for such

accusations.

The most bitter irony of our time is that the United States calls itself

the leader of global coalition against terrorism, while the downtrodden

nations everywhere in the world have experienced the U.S. tyranny. The

killing of 290 innocent passengers and crew on board the Iranian airliner

over the Persian Gulf by the U.S. warship Vincennes in 1988 and conferring

a medal of honor on the captain of the ship by the U.S. Administration is

just one example of the so many crimes committed by the U.S. against other

nations.

It is the United States that has fostered the occupier, aggressor and

racist regime of Israel, and it is Washington that has divided terrorism

into two categories, acceptable and unacceptable! And by doing so, the

U.S. officials have openly accepted a form of terrorism. Still, it is the

United States that has allocated funds for acts of terrorism by its agents

in other parts of the world. Therefore, the question is, what makes the

U.S. qualified to lead the global campaign against terrorism?

Indeed, as long as Washington continues to support the state-sponsored

acts of terrorism committed by the Zionist regime against Palestinians, as

long as it not only refuses to condemn these acts of terrorism, but also

vetoes the UN Security Council resolutions issued in condemnation of

Israel, and as long as the United States labels as ``terrorists`` those

Palestinians who are defending their homes and resisting Israeli

occupation, Washington lacks all legitimacy and qualification to lead the

holy struggle against terrorism.

Terrorism is an international catastrophe, whose ugly face was partly

revealed through the terrorist incidents during the recent months.

Fighting this phenomenon requires tackling its roots, and one of the most

striking roots of this phenomenon is state-sponsored terrorism.

Any strategy to fight international terrorism should, in particular,

reconsider national and international rules and place more emphasis on the

enforcement of these rules, promote international cooperation in this

regard, reject a selective approach to the issue and ultimately encourage

concerted action to condemn and firmly deal with those promoting and

defending this inhuman practice.

Humiliating submission to the founders of terrorism in the world by

proposing to recognize the ugliest manifestation of this phenomenon and

ignoring the suffering of Palestinians, who have been victims of Zionist

terrorism for the past half a century, will not help to eradicate this

menace, but will only encourage its perpetrators. This proposal is not

acceptable, even if it is submitted under the demagogic title of

``strategic studies``, and even if some try to give it a gloss from the Holy

Book and Sunna

Rana: This is a reoccuring theme in ALL religions which don`t emphasize a personal, introspective path.

If God/religion is found EXTERNALLY (books, science) and not from within, a ``believer`` has two options... (keeping in mind that we all have an innate idea of ``truth, right and wrong.``)

1. Repress your notions of what truth is and follow the religion BLINDLY. This involves adapting yourSELF(soul) to the religion - the COWARDLY approach cuz ur not being U.

2. Either leave the religion, or ADAPT it to yourself. This means u gotta accept the fact that u may go to that (fairy tale) place called ``hell.`` It means that you follow what u KNOW is right and that ur man enough to face the consequences...

The latter doesnt depend on other people`s interpretation, its less fanatical. The former is taken by a coward who thinks its the ONLY way (FOOLZ)....

Thats the REAL delineation.

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