Is Jehad Passe’?

What amazes me is the world is chruning in the beginning of a global world war which will be devastating from every point of view.
And some pada likkhaa Muslim Pakistanis are still debating about what is written in some book...... and interpretting it many times over....what the hell...you dim wits...if 2 people read the same book they can get 2 different meanings...(EVIDENCE of this is all around read the newspapers and see how different people interpret the same verses of a religious text )...you guys are doomed and sab ko le doobo ge ...and you sic people the virgins are here on earth not in heaven ......(ulti aa gayeee)

umpteen times we`ve been told on chowk that unlike in hinduism, ``all muslims are equal`` and blah blah blah ... yet here we have fido`s brother omkar telling us ahmediyas are lesser muslims, or they`re not muslims at all...and then there`s the sunni-shia nonsense...which is it?

Re: Soysauce #89

``...India would do well to make the cost of jihadi sposorship by pakistan unacceptably high WITHOUT going to war...``

Any ideas? I sure, like you, would like to avoid war. I even find your idea of `making the cost of jihadi sponsorship unacceptably high` abhorent, since inflicting punsishment (as you indicate) does not come naturally to me.

A good precedent for India/Pakistan is the gentlemen`s agreement reached over a handshake between Bush and Putin to mutually reduce their strategic nuclear warheads. No treaties were signed, and it was achieved through verbal commitments. Why can`t India and Pakistan do the same over an issue on which the entire world agrees -- terrorism is BAD? Why does Musharraf have to wait till the US tells him that the LeT and JeM are `terrorist`? Why can`t he reach the same conclusion independently, and earn kudos from the world (and India) over something that he will anyway be forced to comply with?

As regards your idea of India taking the issue to the UN, India knows that China could veto any action against Pakistan -- thus, it has shared the evidence with the US/UK, which has resulted in the stiffest condemnation yet for any group harbored by Pakistan. So, India will work with the Western democracies first, before taking the matter to the UN (which could still happen).

``...aborogating the Indus river treaty is an act of war...``

No, it is not -- read the treaty (it is on the Internet). It is a voluntary contract between Pakistan and India. Besides, if you think that Pakistan will willingly raise the stakes for a war by harboring groups such as the LeT and JeM, trash the Simla Agreement and the Lahore Declaration, why should India give Musharraf a free ride? Let him explain to his people that his actions (or lack thereof) may force them to forgo some water. J&K politicians are already favoring the termination of the treaty. This is what Indian politicians have been saying for a while:

``Indus water treaty harming J & K Interests``

``On the political front, leaders (of J&K), including the Chief Minister, Dr Farooq Abdullah and a former Chief Minister, Mr G.M. Shah, have been favouring the scrapping of the (Indus Waters) treaty. Several BJP leaders have said it was unfortunate and an irony of fate that India “exports water to Pakistan and the latter exports terrorism to the former.”

http://www.tribuneindia.com/20010501/j&k.htm#1

`` If india starts building a dam, pakistan could blow up the dam and still not be rebuked for it, because that would be a just act...``

That is like saying that if terrorists use Pakistani territory against India, India could direct military hits against such targets, and not be rebuked for it. Your comment about Tibet is not quite valid since ALL Indus tributaries affected by the treaty pass through India. India does not have to build a dam -- just a diversion canal.

I agree with you that abrogating the treaty will be a drastic step -- and change Indo/Pak relations FOREVER. That is why treaties need to be treated with respect. In today`s climate, a treaty like the Indus Water would never be signed. Pakistan is on notice for not observing the Simla Agreement when it launched Kargil operations, and when it allows infiltrators in.

Here are top ten things Pakistan needs to implement to be considered as a viable and respectable nation state in the community of nations.

10. Restrict land holdings - end of Feudalism.

9. Change the name of Faisalabad back to Lyallpur as well as changing the names of rockets and satellites to native heroes and places.

8. Change Kashmir policy to non-interfering and by peaceful means only.

7. Return the country to democracy by fair and unmanipulated elections.

6. End ISI power as state within a state

5. Cut defense spending.

4. Impose a two-children per family policy

3. Ban all terrorist organizations including LeT, JeM, HUM, Al-Badar, Jui, JUP, JI, SSP and any organization whose name starts with Lashkar or Harkat.

2. Brand Barelvis and Shias as non-Muslims.

1. Brand Deobandis and Wahabis as non-Muslims.

Soysauce #89

The important thing is not how much water supply India actually cuts, but how much it can credibly threaten to do, even if it does not follow up on its threats. Nobody likes living with a sword over their head.

And abrogating the treaty would not necessarily constitute a declaration of war, especially if India declares its intentions of seeking a more ``just`` settlement that takes into account the ``legitimate aspirations`` of Indian farmers :)Then we can drag out the talks as long as we want to.

As for Pakistan bombing any India dams, that would constitute a real act of war, and then India would be justified in retaliating. Bhai isn`t that what low-grade war is all about? Pakistan should know, right?

-narain

Re: Tahmed321

``...Let us just hope that the current crisis stops short of war breaking out between Pakistan and India...``

Let us hope AND pray. If there is even one more incident like the Parliament attack, then I think that Vajpayee`s hand will be forced even harder. Killing a top Indian leader is not impossible -- George Fernandes (for all his loathing for the trappings of power) did not have ANY kind of security at his official residence till a week before the Parliamentary attack. And as long as the LeT and the JeM roam freely, the fate of a billion people in the Subcontinent will rest in their hands. I hope that Musharraf understands the gravity of the situation. He now finds both the US and India in agreement over the nature of the JeM and LeT, and the glare of the world media is on him to see how he proceeds against them.

Re: Ali1 to OmarAkram # 80

Ali1 -- you are a decent human being after all.

Re Fatimah (#90):

I have always maintained that declaring Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) as the last prophet has does not have any Islamic basis. This is what I have consistently argued on other boards as well.

The Arabic word “khattam” means “seal”. It does not mean “last”. According to Quran, Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is the “Seal of Prophethood”, which implies his status as the ultimate prophet, the prophet with the highest status ever.

This interpretation of “khattam” is consistent with other verses of Quran, including those where coming of other messengers/prophets is hinted at. There is no mention of Prophet Mohammd (pbuh) being the last prophet in Quran, or in the kalima (Muslim declaration of faith, “there is none worth of worship except Allah, and Mohammad, pbuh, is His Messenger) either.

It is unfair of you to accuse me of double talk. Clearly you have misunderstood my posts and were too quick to jump to wrong conclusions.

sigalph235 and nasah Sahib,

Thanks for your very kind and encouraging comments … your support is sincerely appreciated.

Regards,

Asad

Salam-o-alikum Warehmatullah,

It will be the last post from me to all of you who still look for some thing of a challenge in replying back and till now a lot of people have risen to it :)

For the record I am not from the generation who was born and bread here and unlike some of you I have seen and lived in some of the so-called Islamic and moderate Islamic cultures in Turkey, Middle East and North Africa and trust me every where someone somehow is disguising their traditional culture with Islam.

Some of you have the courtesy of redefining the definition of Finality of Prophethood well its ur opinon however I would like to say one thing if the finality of the Prophet was to be questioned then why did the muslims just after the death of the Prophet declared war on the false prophets who sprang up in the arabian penisula? besides isent it strange that we who dont even speak arabic as the first language can so definately deduce meanings of the words its remarkable but then (again i would re-quote al Kafirun)

..FOR YOU IS YOUR RELIGION AND FOR ME IS MINE....

Someone pointed out to the fact of the outcome of the war between the christians and the persians and the outcome in the future which quran predicted but remember the verse i refered to came at a later time not before the ones Mr Ali refered to. My dear besides it was also reported that Najashi died as a Muslim but that rawayat is not verified at least I am not able to verify it as yet..

I too have a lot of christian colleagues and a lot of them are spanish it really broke my heart when I went to see the Al-Hambra (spanish for Al Hammra) if you want to verify you can go there your self and see the Mosque in the Palace complex first converted to a Horse stable and then later on converted to a church (this is not something I came up with it was as told/briefed to me by the spanish collegues)

Has anyone been to the museum in Manila not many people know this but before the spanish invasion the name of Manila was Amman-ul-Allah there the spanish used the same tactic they used back in spain and you have the result now. I dont say we use the same tactics used against Muslims by them I do not call for out right slaughter of non-muslims, what I do call for is that if some Muslim brother or sister is in need do help him/her and help them anyway u can.

DO many of you know that many jews did leave the Spanish empire and settled in the Muslim Empire when the spanish inquiziotion took place (millions of jews were persecuted just because they were jews they were given refuge because they were humans unlike what they are doing right now)For example I do know the lady who wrote the famous book ``A cat named Hitler`` she is a jew and a very very nice lady but then I donot say they are my friends good acquaintances and colleagues definitely. I meet the same guy everyday who`s family was removed from their land by Israeli forces in the first Intifada. Can I call anyone my friend who did this to a muslim brother of mine but at the same time it does not give me the right to kill every jew for that matter.

It still hurts me to recall some of my Muslim and non-muslim class fellows, with whom I spent 9 years at a catholic school, died in vain on sept 11. they died as a colateral damage for some fanatics as afghans died as colateral damamge for others.

Beyond any reasonable doubt as a muslim I have faith in the prophet hood of Christ, Moses, Ibrahim and all the others which Allah Subhan wa tala sent for our guidence but you seek guidence from what they taught us and what they left for us as a message from Allah but is the message still intact in Bilble (Old testament, new etc. at most places donot agree at all besides majority of the bibles were written by people after Christ was lifted to Heavens as Alive, please refer to Haroon Yahya`s web site for more details www.hyahya.org) and for that matter in any other book except for Quran which is still in the same form as it was at the time of revelation...

enough said on this It will be grave to say that one society is better than other since this society (one in UK) has qualities both good and bad and the best one is Honesty with work which unfortunately most of the Muslims have lost quite conveniently.

I do agree that people have persecuted the Ahmedis viciously which is wrong, but there is still no denying the fact that their interpretations are quite contrary to what I have firm faith in and that does not make them muslim in my eyes...

I unfortunately never attended a religious school and for that matter just say I am a muslim who has read and by the grace of Allah is still learning my religion...

Mr. Pardesi the oldest trick in the declermation is that you come up with the name of a ``person`` and spin the story around him which strikes a cord with many and you put your point through ...

thing is often we do not like to verify the assumptions but end up accepting the facts deduced. so i would suggest to you to kindly forget about such stories. there was a small rumor about me here in the office in UK when I came to Pakistan to attend a wedding around 15th sept that Omar had gone to Pakistan maybe to fight with the Taliban well who knows someone could have written a story about me as well.

Some readers are so bent upon defending their ideas of democracy and freedom that make some amusing deductions about some of the ethnic communities in Pakistan as far as I remember the Ahmadis have a huge population somewhere in Punjab province that will bring them in the same category as some living in Indian Punjab :) I am sorry that maybe you are as gentle as I am Mr. Nasah. :)

Again people I am not here to convince anyone about anything what ever you think it ur right of opinon and what ever I think is my right and what ever differences we have they will become quite clear on the Day of Judgment.

I would like to recomend some books to anyone who would like to read them these are people who have really helped shape my life.

1. Dr. Hamid Ullah He is a pakistani scholar and the last I know of him lives somewhere in France one of His books is also called The Addresses of Bahawalpur.

2. Mr. Justice Taqi Usmani and his books and papers on Islamic Financial system and status of women in Islam(www.islamiq.com)

3. Ozturk, Ahmed Dedaad and Haroon Yahya.

And oh do read Sahih Bukhari and Muslim these are gems.

I would request anyone and everyone that, look even if you donot agree to what I said it does not make me a criminal or u a felon as I quoted earlier For you is your religion and for me is mine and as is my belief that our differences will be cleared up on the day of Judgment the only thing which worries me and for that matter everyone else is as stated in Al-Wakiah(Sec. 27)

``....There will be a lot (people who will enter in to Heaven) for the earlier (generations)and a lot lesser from the later (generations)....``

I pray for all of you as I pray for myself that we do not lose our desire to seek the right path and may Allah guide us to it and keeps us firm on it.

Salam-o-alikum Warehmatullah

WHO WANTS PAKISTAN.

THERE IS SOMETHING UNIQUE ABOUT PAKISTANIS.They keep talking about the dream of jinnah, what jinnah wanted, and may be there in lies the problem. The people who live there, the mohajirs only wanted what is left behind by those who departed, and the locals never liked the carpetbaggers from afar. So it is only natural that only topic about pakistan, the vision only belonged to jinnah. The following is from dawn of today, Stanly wolpert on jinnah, also read Ayesha Jalals new book, ` the senile spokesman`.

Quaid wanted army to only defend frontiers: Wolpert speaks at AKU...

By Shamim-ur-Rahman

KARACHI, Dec 26: Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah did not visualize a theocratic Pakistan, but a democratic, modern, forward-looking secular homeland for the Muslims where every citizen would enjoy equal rights according to the law and where there would be no discrimination on the basis of religion, ethnicity, etc.

sattar2 #79 you write : ``The concept of finality of prophethood has no Quranic basis...The concept of “finality of prophethood” is derived mainly from ahadith where the Prophet (pbuh) reportedly stated that he is the last prophet. ``

Wrong. The Quran clearly says that the Prophet provides the seal of Prophethood and you and I have discussed before what this logically implies. Your explanation at the time (that there are varying levels of Prophethood, with minor prophets being permitted after the Holy Prophet) was forced and quite unconvincing, in my view.

Having said this, it is also true that sunnis who call Ahmedis kafirs are not only being insulting and mischievous, they are also violating other injunctions of the Quran which lie at the heart of Islam (namely, that it is not for a person to pass judgement on others in matters of religion, that one should respect all faiths). And those who physically attack Ahmedis are common criminals. But this does not change the fact that you are incorrect in the assertion you make in your post.

Ranaransher #94 You write: ``And some pada likkhaa Muslim Pakistanis are still debating about what is written in some book...... and interpretting it many times over....what the hell...you dim wits...``

To be called a dimwit by a person of average intelligence is bad. To be called a dimwit by a dimwit (which you have proved on numerous occassions on chowk) would be really bad...until I notice the reason you provide (discussing a book).

And you obligingly explain: ``if 2 people read the same book they can get 2 different meanings...``

Duh! I never would have guessed that!!

After that you continue with the usual moronic sexually-laced insults to muslims...

What exactly did they feed you turkeys when you were growing up? brain-killing cereal?? I am beginning to understand the hatred for muslims people like you display on chowk (as your distinguished colleague on the other board noted, muslims are the descendants of low caste hindus and therefore - per his thinking - contemptible). But I will never understand what happened when your brain was being formed.

re Rsaxena

``all muslims are equal``

As you say, that`s sheer nonsense in practice. Have you seen how the moneyed Bedouins treat Muslims from South Asia? Or how they protrate themselves in front of the European Christians who pay them a visit? PLease. This `ummah` nonsense is only a creation of the oil-rich folks from the Gulf to get the other Muslims to respect them.

Equal? I have family that has been treated far more `equally` in the `heathen` West than in the `ummah` in the desert. These roaming nomads would go beserk if an American style Civil Rights Act was imposed on them.

RSaxena`` ``yet here we have fido`s brother omkar telling us ahmediyas are lesser muslims, or they`re not muslims at all...and then there`s the sunni-shia nonsense...which is it?``

What it iz is the last 5 pages contain some of the stupidest posts ever on chowk (and that says a LOT)... Omkar has crossed the line of sanity SOO many times I wonder why people bother talking to him. His posts are sophomoric (utterly stupid) regurgitations of useless dogma. What a waste.

re omarakram

``I would request anyone and everyone that, look even if you donot agree to what I said it does not make me a criminal or u a felon as I quoted earlier For you is your religion and for me is mine and as is my belief that our differences will be cleared up on the day of Judgment``

I am glad you see it that way. Problem is that I suspect most of you folks will not waste a minute, if you were in a ruling majority, to put to sword anyone who expresses a different opinion. I know the game. You guys are vehemently for civil liberties and free speech when in the minority. The minute you folks are in control, the others become murtad, dhimmis, or munafiqs(if not outright kafirs) without any free speech rights. You version of democracy is indeed one man, one vote. But it is followed by the third criteria, `one time`. We saw the game in Iran. That;s why we stopped the shenanigan in Alegeria.

Dude, does it bother you that Islamic `scholars` passed a death sentence on Salman Rushdie but cannot even decide if the Sept 11 event was wrong or not? If that is not abject perversion of morals, I don`t know what is!

#: 103

sattar2------Re Fatimah (#90):

``It is unfair of you to accuse me of double talk. Clearly you have misunderstood my posts and were too quick to jump to wrong conclusions.``

I am only educating MYSELF.So tell me do you agree or not that both shia & sunni two major sect of muslims believe Mohommed is the FINAL (last)prophet .......Yes or No

If No then we have problem

If YES ...then you must not `fight`discrimination as being mainstream muslim.

WE do not have luxury of self interpreting b/c it is not syllabus or course material of university which we are more used to study.