Is Jehad Passe’?

Re Tahmed (#142):

You have picked a very convenient time to “agree to disagree” …right when I started to press you for some details of your vague and grand plans to revive Islam by human development, education, and rational thinking and when I questioned your unrealistic expectations of Islamic fanatics turning into caring and compassionate and rational beings. I also pointed out that similar vague and grand plans have been in place and have utterly failed for the past thousand or so years. It is at this juncture that you simply “agree to disagree”, while failing to provide any arguments to support your claims and expectations.

Similarly you have not commented as I have pointed out that your statements are clearly contradicted by Quran. This includes your comment that Mohammad`s personality is of almost no significance in the Quran and also that Quran is neither necessary nor sufficient for progress of Muslims.

This is a continuation of your lame approach when you contradicted my statement that there is no Quranic basis for finality of proophethood. You told me I was wrong, but failed to provide any arguments to support your claim. On the other hand I provided some arguments from Quran, but you did not discuss these either. You only stubbornly insisted that Sattar is wrong.

When you contradict claims made by others and make counter claims, you have the intellectual responsibility to support your position by providing arguments. Merely making counter claims generates noise and makes for a childish shouting match. It is a mark of arrogance and shows lack of courtesy.

Moving along …

You still not have understood my position, as indicated by your summary of the argument. My position of following the divine messages and deriving inspiration from the shinning examples of the prophets covers more than what you have understood so far. I have continuously argued that the divine scripture (i.e. Quran) provides the necessary framework within which true human progress can take place. First understanding this “framework” is important, which means accepting the presence of the divine in one’s life and making Him the focus of one’s devotion. Once this is done, humans need to exercise their faculties for development and progress … at individual level, at national level, as well as for the benefit of the entire mankind. This includes education, physical fitness, studying sciences, developing technology, maintaining law and order, and more.

This, I have argued, has happened numerous times in this history of the mankind and Allah’s prophets have been instrumental in its implementation. This is fully supported by Quran and is one of the reasons I believe in continuation of prophethood. As I pointed out earlier, continuation of prophethood is further confirmed by the study of Quran.

Now, if you’d like to counter my claim, do provide some supporting arguments, and counter the arguments that I raised earlier on this board. However if you merely choose once again to voice your opinion without any supporting arguments, I’ll consider this to be your preferred method of discourse, and desperately hope that this is not how you plan to reform the Muslims of the world.

Regards,

Asad

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sattar2 #144 If a rational observer reviews this latest interaction we have had, I think that person will agree that I have tried to base my discussion with you on a reasonable understanding of the Quran and on common sense. Try to review the interaction objectively, and see if the same can be said for your posts. Since we dont have unlimited time to spend on chowk, I had assumed in my previous post that we could end the discussion by simply summarizing the points we agree or disagree on. You have chosen to portray even this attempt as well as merely a way for me to avoid discussion, rather than providing me the courtesy of disagreeing with you just as I was providing you the same courtesy.

It should by now be clear to you that (unlike some other people on chowk and unlike religious zealots), I will not brand you a kafir on account of your views. Your religious views are your business. However, I do think you are as much a prisoner of your ahmedi dogma as the sunni mullahs are prisoners of their dogma. You share the same ``religion`` as the detractors of your sect of lack of respect for logic and reason, lack of respect for different views, and an inability to see the line that separates matters of fact from matters of faith.

Tahmed Sahib,

The main reason I declined your offer to disagree was that you incorrectly summarized my position. Such an attempt is somewhat absurd, especially since you have not properly understood my views in the first place. I hope you can appreciate this fine point.

This is illustrated by the fact that I did not rule out education, character building, acquiring knowledge, and thinking rationally. I have always maintained that these strategies must be employed, but only after accepting the divine as the focus of one’s devotion, which includes following prophets periodically raised by the Almighty Allah. Your summary of arguments shortchanged me on this account by suggesting that my position of following prophets is one devoid of reason and rationality.

You display this misunderstanding again in your latest post when you incorrectly associate with me lack of respect for reason and logic. You have not applied your own mental faculties to correctly understand my position. Rather, you seem to have judged my views from your notions of other Muslims, who probably think that following religion entails divorcing rationality and logic from one’s thought process. These biases are your problem and I cannot let you project them on my views.

Now, what a rational person will think after reviewing our interacts … I’d like to hear this from a rational person. Your own biases seem to be getting the best of you here, and I must decline your attempts to “rationally” interpret these interacts for me.

I am still of the opinion that you have not made much of an attempt to address the prophethood issue. On the other hand, the arguments I provided remain unanswered. I am not asking you to spend an unlimited amount of time on this issue … but you are liable for “some” amount of time to explain your position when you contradict someone else’s statements. This is your intellectual obligation, which remains largely unfulfilled. If you disagree, then review my arguments on the first post addressed to you, and see how many points you have responded to so far.

Your not branding me a kafir, or not branding anyone anything, is a trait of civility. In addition, if you think that I am a prisoner of Ahmadi dogma, do not respect views of others, and cannot separate facts from faith, these are your opinions and you are entitled to them. I personally view such thoughts of yours as baseless, against facts, irritating at best, and a reflection of your own dogma. I have used the term “dogma’ here, since you think that your perception of reality is the correct one! ... the rationalist’s paradox …

Now, if you’d like to agree to disagree in our views, feel free to do so without summarizing my position. You seem to have only poorly understood it, rendering you ineffective to intelligently interpret or summarize my half of this discourse.



Asad

sattar #147 One can only agree or disagree on something specific, not an entire set of posts. You do not accept my summarization of your views. Fine. I will then take the following sentence from your post where I assume you mean exactly what you say and which comes closest to addressing the issue. You write: ``This is illustrated by the fact that I did not rule out education, character building, acquiring knowledge, and thinking rationally. I have always maintained that these strategies must be employed, but only after accepting the divine as the focus of one’s devotion, which includes following prophets periodically raised by the Almighty Allah. ``

I disagree with what you write on two counts: (a) As a practical matter, if the goal is to have a civilized society, education, character building and thinking rationally come first. (b) As a question of interpreting the Quran, you are wrong when you ascribe divinity to ordinary men, as you clearly do in your last phrase: ``but only after accepting the divine as the focus of one’s devotion, which includes following prophets periodically raised by the Almighty Allah.``

On both these counts, you hold the same view as that of the mullahs, regardless of sect, which is what I had said in my previous post. And, on account of these two points too, the issue where you and the sunni mullahs have such heated discussions (finality of the prophethood) is not a material issue. As I also said in my previous post.

Instead of arguing with me and accusing me of putting misrepresenting what your views, I hope you will take the time to reflect on what I have said above.

Re tahmed (#148):

I disagree with you when you state that in order to have a civilized society, education, character building, and acquiring knowledge comes first.

Logic and rationality are tools for achieving a greater purpose. Without an underlying purpose they become mere exercises. Therefore a goal must be defined before tools of logic and rationality may be employed. Once the goal is defined, the society’s laws, social structure etc. must be designed, logically and rationally, so that this goal is achieved.

I believe Allah Almighty to be the Fountainhead of all that is good and just. Quran states that Allah has created jinn and men so that they may worship Him. Here worship broadly means following divine commandments, fulfilling one’s social obligations, kindness towards others, establishing a relationship with God Almighty, exercising one’s intellect, and more. This is what I mean by “accepting the divine as the focus of one’s devotion”. You may substitute this clause by some other goal and constantly reflect upon this goal to measure society’s success. For me, this goal is clearly outlined by the Quran itself.

Without a destination, motion has no meaning. Without belief in an Absolute Being, morality becomes a relative issue and human life ultimately has no purpose. Without belief in the divine an individual may wonder, “why bother doing good to others if there is nothing beyond the existence of this world?” Of course if one believes in a divine Who is Benevolent, Just, and the Master of the Day of Judgment, the emphasis shifts from callousness and disregard to compassion and patience.

Therefore belief in the Supreme Being is crucial to rationality and logic, if human thought is to be used for the true benefit of the mankind.

Moving on to education and character building …

While these are good sound bites, they require further scrutiny and clarification. What you include in education and character building is tightly linked to your own upbringing, experiences, and deep-rooted beliefs. These ideas vary drastically even among highly rational and knowledgeable people. For example, here in the USA, education and character building implies, among other things, drinking (alcohol) responsibly, teenagers using protection when having sex, and calling your uncle “Bob”. On the other hand a person from a “Muslim background” will likely conclude that education and character building should severely discourage alcohol consumption, sex outside of marriage, and calling your uncle by name.

One may wonder that with so many diverse ideas, which set of ideas should be implemented in a society? What is the yardstick against which human progress may be measured? In absence of divine guidance, it will be a tough call. I would guess that you’d lean in favor of the “Muslim” ideas on this subject. Did you arrive at this rationally or did religion play a part in this decision?

With absence of divine guidance, education and character building become subjective and debatable. People have opinions, and they largely disagree with each other. One may still go to college and study sciences, but without the fear of Allah, he may end up working on projects harmful for the mankind. So what good is such education which fails to remind one of the divine existence in one’s life and lets him wonder about and engage in potentially dangerous practices? How do you build character and values without emphasis on the Divine Being from whom all that is good and praise-worthy originates?

Moving on to prophets …

You incorrectly state that I ascribe divinity to ordinary men. Following prophets does not mean worshipping them, rather accepting them as messengers with divine commandments, respecting and obeying them, and drawing inspiration from them. A student respects, obeys, and emulates his professor … this does not mean he worships the professor.

Quran mentions several praise-worthy qualities of Mohammad and mentions that he is an excellent model for the believers. It also mentions noble qualities of other prophets and commands believers to follow them. Quran also commands believers to believe in all prophets of Allah. Does Quran ascribe divinity to Mohammad and other prophets?



Prophets have been raised in the past to guide people as they go astray. Are followers of Quran no longer in need of guidance? Surely they are. Are they not as corrupt as other nations were when prophets were sent to them? Surely they are. If prophets were sent earlier, why are they no longer needed? Surely it is not the Quran that makes future prophets unnecessary. It has been around ever since, but the Muslims have continued to slide downhill for the past thousand years. Clearly Quran is not adequate … just like Torah was not adequate for the Israelites and more prophets were sent with divine messages.

The need for prophets exists today exactly like it existed earlier. So why would Allah not continue to raise more prophets? Indeed He will … as this is fully supported by Quran as I have mentioned in my earlier post.

On mullahism …

You incorrectly assign to me the views of a mullah. A mullah exploits others by forcing his inhuman interpretation of religion on others. He always persecutes the followers of a prophet to maintain his power base. What I have said is what followers of every prophet have said in all ages … to go back to the original message of Allah, to make winning His pleasure the goal of one’s life, to have love and compassion for all, to use one’s faculties to reason and think. This message has always been disturbing to the mullahs who have always vehemently opposed prophets and their followers.

Sahib … my community is being persecuted by all the mullahs … unanimously … and you state that I am saying what a mullah says! This is most absurd … take a dose of reality. If you still cannot tell the difference, may be you just are not getting it!

Were all the prophets mentioned in the Quran “corrupt mullahs” of their ages, or did the mullah later exploit the message of these prophets? I’d expect an intelligent, educated person to know the difference. A cunning robber may dress and pose as a policeman and fool and rob others. Surely this does not mean that we abolish the police force altogether. Or does it?

Asad

Sameer JB, if you read this message, resend me your email address and I`ll forward you article from the Journal of Democracy.

Comments to my article have been varied, from the absurd to the very valid. No I dont see Pakistan as the source of all ills, neither the liberals in that country who are always willing to grab a seat at the table. My case was not in favour of the liberals, but rather at odds with them in their unqualified welcome of Islamabad`s alleged u-turn. I was only expressing doubts informed by my reading of the happenings in the region/PAkistan which erupted finally in the attack on the Indian parliament. the Musharraf regime for all its resolute public posturing against jihadis was caught with both hands in the cookie jar, for their alleged complicity in ``jihad`` if not outright involvement. I hope that jihad of the ISI variety is passe, for otherwise we will end up at the wrong side of the barrel.

No body in his/her right mind is rejoicing.

These are hard times for all Pakistan ,Afghanistan,all Afghanis & Pakistanis.

Of all the things gone wrong ,in the last 3 months ,military Rule is not the most damaging of all.What P.M.(parvez Musharaff) did may not be win win all the way ,but no leader ever has had 100% success neither Kennedy ,nor Churchill you name it.Given the situation ,Musharaff had no choice but to go the route he took.Americans despite having burnt us in the past 80-90 afganistan,remain the super power & how else do you deal with one such daunting force . Our 7 times large neighbour hell bent on poisoning U.S.A.against Pakistan 24/7 through there Tunku Vadarajan to Srinivasan all not Indian but like Vidya Naipaul by virtue of DNA consider themselves Indian(origin) & work for India.

The Pakistani Crisis

2245 GMT, 011220

Summary

With the Taliban withdrawal, the focus is shifting to countries that could next face U.S. military attention, such as Somalia or Iraq. However, if Washington really wants to break the al Qaeda network, it must deal with Pakistan first. It will become increasingly difficult for the United States to avoid taking some action in at least parts of that country.

Analysis

The mood in Washington is one of subdued satisfaction. The war in Afghanistan has been concluded, with the primary strategic objective achieved: the country can no longer be used as a base of operations for al Qaeda.

Secondary strategic objectives, though, have not been attained. The bulk of Taliban fighters have not been killed or captured, and it will not be clear until after winter whether their cohesion has been permanently shattered. The senior commanders of the Taliban have also not been liquidated. Above all, al Qaeda`s leadership, particularly Osama bin Laden, still appears to be on the loose.

However, in any war in which the primary objective is achieved with little cost in lives, there is ample reason for satisfaction. However, there is another sense in Washington that events in Afghanistan have clearly given the United States strategic initiative, and that therefore the next move is up to the Bush administration.

There is a spirited debate underway among policymakers at all levels as to what such a move ought to be. Some argue that the United States should now attack Iraq, while others want to deal with Somalia or Yemen.

The debate itself is rooted in a perception of the world that is dubious. The Bush administration did not choose the war in Afghanistan. It was forced on the United States by the actions of others and by geopolitical reality. Al Qaeda`s decision to attack, its relationship to the Taliban and the geography and politics of Afghanistan scripted the American response.

Washington`s perception of the current situation is that it now has the freedom to choose its next step. But what that will be just isn`t clear, as new issues will force themselves on the United States. The most important issue, one that the United States has been assiduously avoiding, is that of the current role and future condition Pakistan.

Pakistan historically has been an ally of the United States, and it was a base of operations for U.S. and allied efforts to support the mujahideen during the Afghan-Soviet war.

With the collapse of the Soviet Union, U.S.-Pakistani relations underwent a transformation. Pakistan evolved politically from a secular, pro-Western orientation until it became a bulwark of Islamic fundamentalism. To a very great extent, the Taliban is as much a Pakistani creature as it is an Afghan one.

On the other side, with the United States no longer driven by the need to contain the Soviet Union, the U.S. government downgraded Pakistan`s strategic importance. Before Sept. 11, the United States was already exploring two new relationships: with the Khatami regime in Iran and with India.

However, after Sept. 11, the United States was forced back into a difficult and complex relationship with Pakistan. U.S. and Pakistani interests in Afghanistan were fundamentally at odds because Islamabad had close ties with the Taliban and did not want them to lose power, especially to the Northern Alliance.

At the same time, the United States badly needed Pakistan. Washington was incapable of containing either the Taliban or al Qaeda inside of Afghanistan. The quantity of forces deployed simply would not achieve that goal.

Therefore, Pakistan`s willingness to use its armed forces to seal its border with Afghanistan became a matter of critical importance. Even more important, the willingness of Pakistan to use its intelligence and security forces to uproot al Qaeda cells, disrupt Taliban control in regions where these cells might find refuge and provide intelligence on al Qaeda operations in the region became strategically critical. So long as Pakistan served as active or passive sanctuary, the Afghan operation could not be conclusive.

The Pakistani government was caught in a serious dilemma. It could not afford to enrage the United States. An outright refusal to cooperate with Washington, or continued active support of the Taliban and al Qaeda, would have made Pakistan an enemy of the United States. Given the evolution of Washington`s relationship with New Delhi, and to a lesser extent, with Taliban enemy Iran, a direct challenge to Washington could have crystallized a strategic alliance that would have doomed Pakistan.

India recognized Sept. 11 as a historic opportunity, and put two policies into motion. The first was to be absolutely forthcoming with Washington, offering it a host of military and intelligence accommodations including the right to use Indian air bases for operations. Second, it proceeded to increase its forces in the Kashmir region in anticipation of evolving strategic opportunities. Iran, with a much more complex internal situation, was of course less forthcoming and less relevant to the equation.

Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf was caught between the strategic threat and domestic reality. He understood he had to cooperate with the United States, but also understood there were severe limitations on that cooperation. Orders to act against Taliban supporters could be given, but whether Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) or other security organs would obey those orders was questionable.

Musharraf faced two problems. First, if he pressed too hard, he could destabilize his government and perhaps lose power. If he did nothing at all, he could get trapped in a geopolitical minefield.

The president`s solution was to act against the Taliban while asking that the United States appreciate the limits of his power. Washington, knowing that if Musharraf fell, it would leave America in a disastrous situation in Afghanistan, permitted the president to tread a careful, middle road.

He acted on behalf of the United States, but not so vigorously as to lose his power base. This meant the U.S. military was able to base only limited forces in Pakistan, receive some cooperation from Pakistani intelligence and have some control placed on pro-Taliban elements in the country.

However, the United States would still have to operate in a nation in which Taliban support was strong and the government was intimately bound up with the Taliban. The ultimate understanding was that the United States would turn a blind eye to Pakistani collaboration with the Taliban, so long as Pakistan cooperated with and never impeded the U.S. war against al Qaeda.

On paper this arrangement seemed fine. Washington cared much more about al Qaeda than the Taliban. The Pakistanis seemed to care mostly about the Taliban and little about al Qaeda. Washington recognized that support for the Taliban and support for al Qaeda came from the same quarters and entities in Pakistan.

Those who were willing to strike at Musharraf were equally unwilling to cooperate in liquidating the Taliban. And since the ISI was a center of pro-Taliban sentiment, the probability of actual cooperation was slim.

Much of this was academic prior to the recent Tora Bora operation, when it suddenly became a burning issue. It is far from clear that bin Laden was at Tora Bora. Why would he choose to go there from Kandahar as the Taliban was withdrawing from the cities?

But it seems extremely likely that he would have tried to make his way into Pakistan, and if he personally didn`t go there, it seems certain that other members of the command cell, as well as less senior al Qaeda operatives, did make their way into the country.

There has been a great deal of speculation as to where they will go from Pakistan, although it is not even clear they would wish to leave the country at all. There are important sectors of the government, especially in the ISI, who are prepared to actively protect them and provide them with infrastructure for movement, communications and even training.

Whatever Musharraf might want -- and he probably wishes that al Qaeda members would disappear from his country so he can get on with his life -- it is not certain that the president will or can act decisively.

One indication of the true status of Pakistan policymaking occurred last week when Islamic operatives attacked India`s Parliament. It is difficult, from Musharraf`s point of view, to imagine a worse development right now. The last thing he wants is to give the Indians an excuse to attack in Kashmir. He does not want to create a crisis in which the United States is forced to make choices at a time when Pakistan cannot fulfill American demands.

Unfortunately, the attack on the Parliament was likely supported by organizations that depend on Pakistani patronage and which clearly want to intensify the crisis between India and Pakistan. They may see their situation inside of Pakistan deteriorating under U.S. pressure, and a conflict with India might increase their power.

First, the United States would be revealed as a useless ally. Second, those Pakistanis who see some accommodation with the United States as necessary would be discredited. Finally, an attack by India would create an atmosphere in which Islamic forces could flourish.

Thus, the attack on India indicates two things. One, Islamic fundamentalists inside Pakistan feel pressure from Musharraf. Two, they have the ability to act in a way that would reveal the president as incapable of controlling his internal forces. And that would drive a wedge between Islamabad and Washington in exactly the way they want.

The core of the problem is this: The next country the United States has to deal with if it wants to break al Qaeda is not Iraq or Somalia. It is Pakistan. The United States cannot begin the process of shutting down al Qaeda globally until their organization inside Pakistan is broken. Al Qaeda was always present in Pakistan, and following the Taliban collapse, its numbers there have undoubtedly surged. Many or even all may stay because Pakistan is a good place from which to operate.

This means that unless the Pakistani government acts directly against al Qaeda, the United States must either begin to treat Pakistan as a hostile power or must abandon its strategic goals. The latter is impossible. It is also impossible to imagine a circumstance under which Musharraf will be able to act effectively to destroy al Qaeda`s presence in Pakistan. There are too many in Pakistan who would have to cooperate with this process who are unwilling and incapable of doing so.

Therefore, the United States is on a collision course with Pakistan, made all the more complex by the fact that the government there is not capable of giving the United States what it must have. If Washington is not going to abandon its goals, it must create a plan of operation in Pakistan. It is difficult to imagine any circumstance under which this will not compel the United States to take some actions against at least parts of Pakistan.

The United States will need regional strategic support. India is ready and waiting. China, on the other hand, is unpredictable. It is wary of U.S. actions, hostile to increased Indian power and has longstanding relations with Pakistan. China does have an Islamic problem, but Beijing`s geopolitical interests do not include the collapse of Pakistan.

As the Bush administration has said, things now get harder. The hardest part is recognizing that the United States has not yet achieved true freedom of action. The menu is still being drawn up by others, and from where we sit, the next item on the menu is Pakistan.

That is the country of refuge for Taliban and al Qaeda fighters. That is the country where support for them is the highest and where supporters deeply influence major institutions. Pakistan must either change or be changed, or the United States must abandon its ambitions relative to al Qaeda. The United States will not abandon its fight, nor can it unilaterally act in Pakistan, although it can manipulate internal affairs as it did in Afghanistan. However, Pakistan is not Afghanistan, and such manipulation could have explosive results. And for India, this is the historical opportunity it has waited for since its founding.

http://www.stratfor.com/home/0112202245a.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/21/opinion/21KRIS.html

Our Friends the Terrorists

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

E-Mail nicholas@nytimes.com

Just to puncture our hypocrisy for a moment: We`ve been battling terrorism by bolstering backers of terrorism in Pakistan.

Pakistan, our new ally in the war on terrorism, has a long history of supporting indiscriminate attacks in India and especially Kashmir. The latest, headline-grabbing attack was the assault on the Parliament building in New Delhi that now threatens war between two nuclear powers, but many thousands of civilians have been killed over the years by Pakistani-financed terrorist organizations.

All in all, Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence Agency, or I.S.I., is responsible for many more killings than Osama bin Laden.

But however hypocritical it may be to bolster one government that harbors terrorists while overthrowing another, there is no good alternative. The Bush administration is exactly right to be simultaneously supporting Gen. Pervez Musharraf and twisting his arm to fight terrorism, for he may be Pakistan`s last hope to rescue his country.

Pakistan today is not only a catastrophe for Pakistanis but a threat to the entire region. Its economy is quasi-feudal, some 55 percent of adults are illiterate and more than 10 percent of children die by the age of 5. Pakistan now has more drug addicts than college graduates.

In the last 20 years public schooling has been partly replaced by madrasas that preach extremism, the pursuit of nuclear weapons has isolated the government, and foolish policies have crippled the economy. The I.S.I.`s installation of the Taliban in Afghanistan has backfired, and now there is a risk of the ``Talibanization`` of Pakistan, as religious extremists return from their ``crusades`` in Afghanistan and Pashtuns perhaps revive their quest for an independent ``Pashtunistan.``

In Pakistan earlier this month, I flinched whenever I read the newspapers. Guerrillas in Kashmir were ``freedom-fighters`` if they lived, ``martyrs`` if they died. And on The Nation`s editorial page appeared this rant: ``The Christian world has not accepted us [Muslims] as human beings even. These nations are determined to exterminate the Muslims.``

General Musharraf is in charge of this morass, and — under strong pressure from President Bush, and less visible nudging from China — he has acted decisively to pull his country toward reality. He ousted the head of the I.S.I., permitted the entry of U.S. troops to oust the Taliban, and sent troops for the first time into tribal areas to capture Taliban escapees. He has moved to sideline the religious fanatics, close the extremist madrasas and deport foreign religious students. Next he must clamp down on the Kashmiri fighters.

Over the last two years General Musharraf has shown himself capable of brutally tough decisions, and there is some reason to think that he can regain control of the I.S.I. (which may have run the latest Indian attack as a rogue operation), cut off state support for Kashmiri terrorists, nurture a growing market economy — and prepare for democratic elections. The religious parties get less than 5 percent of the vote in Pakistan, and so democracy can delegitimize extremism as well.

When I first traveled around Pakistan as a student backpacker two decades ago, I sneaked into closed tribal areas and visited a village that was a center for heroin and gun-running. One gunsmith tried to sell me a pen that could not only write but also shoot a .22 bullet out the end. Not even a Palm Pilot can do that, and it was only $7! This incredibly nifty gadget enthralled me as a symbol of Pakistani ingenuity — and it`s also apt because Pakistan has squandered its considerable potential and excelled far more at things destructive than constructive.

Now Pakistan is at a moment of maximum danger, threatened by the instability caused by returning Taliban fighters on the west and by the risk of war with India on the east. Similarly, it was at a time when India was near economic collapse, in the summer of 1991, that New Delhi moved decisively toward a path of economic reform — and toward more sensible domestic and international policies across the board.

Pakistan, after so many wrong turns in its history, has tentatively taken a right one in the last few months. Now it must build on that by clamping down on its own terrorists. And, whatever the stench of blood in Islamabad, we Americans must hold our noses and do all we can to help General Musharraf hold his course.

PAKISTAN`S CHOICE

New York Post; New York; Dec 20, 2001;

Words in Document: 285

Available Formats:

Buy Full Text

Abstract:

Yes, Pakistan`s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, had the good sense to withdraw his country`s support from the Taliban and al Qaeda once it was clear that America meant business in Afghanistan. But Pakistan still hosts, trains and arms terrorist groups like the ones believed to have carried out the attack in New Delhi.

Yes, the Pashtun tribal areas on the Pakistan-Afghan border ...

`But this fundemantalism is now deeply

embedded in the socio-political psyche of sizeable numbers across ethnic,

sectarian and linguistic divides. And the peculiar world-view spawned by

this religious orthodoxy is not only worrying but seems too rigid to lend

itself to sudden policy shifts.`

Aqil Shah, I TOTALLY disagree with the above statement of yours. I see and hear a lot of people complaining about what is happening - and complaining in the Muslim context. But I`ve never heard anyone offer themeselves to an Islamic party as a solution in the post-sept 11 scenario.

As far as the rigid right goes, a sudden policy shift seems attainable to me precisely because the right is so rigid. I hold the view that the pakistani society has never felt the arguments of the religious right. And it still doesn`t.

On this point I disagree with you. The other points are debatable. I agree that if economics dont improve in the next few years (yeah, i`d say few years rather than the doomsday scenarios so many like to paint), there will can be political ramifications. But again, it won`t be the religious right leading the frenzy.

I am waiting for the day when a Pakistani writes an article in which he blames himself, his ethnicity, his social views, his organization etc. for the faults of Pakistan.

Pakistanis, on this site, generally are very open and critical and introspective about the faults regarding Pakistan. Far more than Indians are about their country, on this site. This is a healthy phenomenon for Pakistanis. For example, Pakistani views on Pakistan`s role in Bangladesh are far different and much more realistic, introspective and honest than Indian views on India`s role in Kashmir.

However, once one descends below the national level of introspection, it turns into a blame game. The maulvis blame the secular leaderships. The politicians blame the military. The military blames the politicians. The common man who never pays taxes, would leave the country in a hearbeat if it were attacked (rather than defending it), is as corrupt at his own level as everyone else, but can write good English, attempts to become the innocent proponent of peace and progress, and blames everyone accept himself, and the organizations he supports.

When the PPP is not in power, it asks the COAS to take over and remove the PML. When the PML is not in power, it does the same in regard to the PPP. Most political parties have n number of factions within themselves. The Muhajirs blame the Punjabis, the Punjabis blame the Afghanis, and the Afghanis blame all of Pakistan. And everyone blames India.

This article is along the same above-described lines. Perhaps what is needed is an article that starts out with stating that it is all, ``my`` (my being the author of any article on the subject) fault.

P.S. I think the influence of violent religious right reached its peak in its demonstrations against the current govt. in the early days of this Afghan war. Since then, it has been downhill for them. Their leadership is running scared of the current govt. The fact that they recieved no support from mainstream Pakistanis should be an indication that they and their, ``secular`` haters had far overstated their importance. This is done by both the religious extremists and the secular extremists to ensure that religion (the reason of existence of both these groups) remains in the limelight as the center of all discussion in Pakistan.

Pakistan needs to leave the religion debate behind, and move onto more pressing debates like economy, education etc. That can only be done if our two set of extremists allow us to do so, and if people get out of the blame game, and start blaming themselves.

Will a secular Pakistani ever write an article highlghting the damage secularims has done to Pakistan. And will a politico-religious supporter ever right an article on the damage religion has done to Pakistan. I doubt it. That would move Pakistanis to the next level of introspection.

In response to Romair, #7:

Well said, sir.

-Digit

Re: Romair…..


You have an interesting hypothesis … Let bygones be bygones …. Lets concentrate on the present….. Let look at the current problems plaguing Pakistan…. With the army in absolute control it should make things happen…..

The Current Interior minister proposed a decentralized Police system for the major metropolitan areas – where one would have local police authority under an elected Mayor – ie fragmenting the unmanageable mega-cities of Karachi, And Lahore into much more efficiently managed smaller towns where the police falls under the local mayor…This Issue has vetoed by the army several times over the past several years Why ?? – we all know that the current police is corrupt and incompetent and has been there for several generations… Why not change the system… what seems to be the obstacle??? Why is it a problem for the Corp commanders ???…..Similar systems are in place throughout the world …..

Privatization of the huge inefficient conglomerates and banks…- Why is t taking so long for them to be privatized - the privatization schemes were started in first administration of Bhutto …. Why has it taken over a decade to privatize anything…. Now that most of the said agencies are being run by retd army generals some like the WAPDA have battalions of army men trying to rectify things ….. or making money on the side ??????

Perhaps somebody can shed light on just these two issues for now…..

=== Interact Filtered ===
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CHILDREN OF TNT,

The education system since 1970 has delivered these children with a jihadic world view that even US education seem to have no impact. Jay sorry, jai to YLH, sarwari etc.

`But this fundemantalism is now deeply

embedded in the socio-political psyche of sizeable numbers across ethnic,

sectarian and linguistic divides. And the peculiar world-view spawned by

this religious orthodoxy is not only worrying but seems too rigid to lend

itself to sudden policy shifts.`

EASTERN ALLIANCE,

there was a news item from an italian agency stating that osama has moved to pok since dec 12. This is a deliberate ploy by the indians. They expect a eastern alliance to take over pok while the US bombs the suspected osama hide outs.

Nobody should believe this report.

Dear ppl.....

I am very sad. In karachi in soljer bazar the bhai of home chief Moinuddin hyder was slaughtered by indian agent RAW member cruelway type.. I got from ex Fauji sources its india operation-murder. its sad india attacks like this. now raw will not say it but its open secret.

We need to give extra protecsion for our famous connected ppl. I think this hibdu or raw agents in sindh-karachi have raw connection.It is said there are 800 agents and need to be caught. ok.This sad in karachi it can happen. he was not politic man. Is it to Punish Haider?

ana: ``not just the military``

What kind of problems is the women`s movement facing from the military? Could you highlight.

My own experience has been that the military bases, and the women there, were far more protected, liberated, open, educated and, ``free`` than most women I encountered as a civilian. Women used to be able to walk around in military bases, in the middle of the night, without any fear, etc. And they are generally considered the most respected people in a military establishment. This is military tradition.

Dear Aqil Sahab,

A very balanced essay on the current situation Pakistan finds itself in. But one must also remember that the jehad option is like a drug that the Pakistani army has been taking for some two decades now. When it first became a possibility, it seemes like the panacea for all of Pakistan`s problems. It was the perfect way to pay back India, keep its army tied down, provide an escape hatch for the disillusioned and poor at home, generate nationalistic fervour, and best of all, didn`t even cost much!! But like all drugs, it has now become an addiction, a weakness which is destroying Pakistan from within. Unfortunately it is not going to be easy for your nation to purge it out of its system. There are no easy choices left.

-narain

Interesting article.

The crisis confronting Pakistan started, when jehadi groups were allowed to dictate national policy. The crisis was bound to happen and could not be delayed forever.

Whatever happens in the future, the time has come to settle the issue of whether Pakistan is a progressive state or a theocratic state.

There is no going back now...all the bridges are burning...

Ciao

India finally does the needful in breaking diplomatic ties with Pukistan...they are pointless given the continued state of hostility...all Indian consulates should also be closed and flights, if there are any, should be cancelled, in addition to the already cancelled rail and road links...the only cross-border transport should be military transport planes carrying Kashmiris hell bent on becoming Pakistanis...surely Pakistan will receive them with open arms, won`t it?...Israel is already providing India the high-tech means to monitor incursions of Pakistani terrorists into India from Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir...shoot the mofos on sight...complete isolation...

Ferozk:

I think that Musharraf`s game on `freedom struggle` is up. It seems that nobody in Washington is believing it either. Musharraf could have earned worldwide platitudes by moving on his own initiative rather than on proddings from outside, but he chose to seek confrontation rather than reconciliation. History will exact a price. Washington now joins Kabul and Delhi in refusing to believe Musharraf:

``...U.S. President George Bush urged Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf on Friday to crack down on the two groups and promised U.S. help in the effort...The president calls on him to take action against the Lashkar-e-Taiba, the Jaish-e-Mohammed and other terrorist organizations, their leaders and their finances,`` White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said.`` http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/world/international-india-pakistan-demand.html

``...But now, Mr. Bush appears to have sided with India, and has told Pakistan that any further backing for armed Islamic militant groups operating in Kashmir will be tantamount to supporting terrorism. In effect, General Musharraf appears to have been told that Pakistan, after more than 50 years of battling India over Kashmir, must now abandon the armed struggle there, and rely henceforth on political means of confronting India. The question now is whether the general will comply, and whether he can carry Pakistan`s masses with him if he does...``

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/21/international/21MUSH.html

``...Because General Musharraf has made the Kashmir cause his own, American pressure on him to crack down on a Muslim extremist group directly involved in the conflict with India is likely to challenge further the political balancing act he has performed since siding with the United States soon after Sept. 11. But Mr. Bush, his aides say, saw no alternative. ``We would be hypocritical if we didn`t do it,`` a senior aide said...``

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/21/international/21PREX.html

A.Shah are you indian prohindu, sexpervert,liberal hindu? Jinnah Sahib has asked pakistan for liberation of kashmir. We can not abondan- leave kashmiri muslims as we made oath to jinnah sahib not to rest till the problem is solved ok. if general ( or any general over years who will be presidents) tries to stop kashmir liberation movement ppl will start rioting.The stakes are big. without K. pakistan will not be complete. For k. we made lot expences in blood and mony, E.Pak. was scrafise for K. do not forget it. Without K. Pakistan is nothing. like lead without pretty eyes. it is bindig thing. Sindhis,punjabis.... may not agree on nothig the agree only onone thing. you know it. what army,has done so you critic fauj. it defends against indian tank thrust in pak. provided you are not like expak who live to states for pure simple mony.We pakis has friends like rsaxna, jay , harimau and fascists chhap, but now we need no trators like you. if you say good about fauj then shut up. too much talking spoiled expaks. i get mad. You people are lucky,good food, fast cars,big house and you wish break unity of ofpakis. Shame on this type HINDUCHHAP expaks

Dear Aqil Shah:

Your column certainly reflects royally -- your name.

The wonder is that in spite of such excellent diagnosticians in Pakistan -- why Pakistan is in such a mess.

You are right -- Pakistan since its inception has grown addicted to the amphetamines of India bashing -- and hindu hating -- it`s an addiction that is so difficult -- but not impossible to get rid of.

You are right in suggesting that instead of the 52 years of this knee jerk failed policy of India baiting -- why not try for a change -- the opposite – friendship with India -- where almost half of Pakistani relatives live -- and see what happens -- a “gamble” worth taking.

I think it s tall order but still doable.

Pakistan has been so generous with the strangers Chinese -- in bestowing upon them part of Kashmir as a free gift -- why it should be difficult to part with a portion of Kashmir to its own relatives in India?

Thanks for a very insightful introspective self analytical column on Indo/Pak relationship – you’re definitely not indulging in blame game.

Regards

hasan

A.Shah... i am against terror. Can tell hindus to do same. I was depressed to see. On PTV christian poor people leaders said INDIA KILLED CHRISTIANS IN BAh. pur killings. Jay.Rsaxsena, harimau, do you think all christians are liers?

I want answer what you get by killing christians?

ahmed madani # 22

“A.Shah... i am against terror. Can tell hindus to do same. I was depressed to see. On PTV christian poor people leaders said INDIA KILLED CHRISTIANS IN BAh. pur killings. Jay.Rsaxsena, harimau, do you think all christians are liers? I want answer what you get by killing christians?”

Read angrezi chhap paper (The Friday times) for the answer you are looking for. Let us know what you think about your PTV or jihadis after reading this.

Take care.

* * *

What will happen to Pakistan after Osama? Khaled Ahmed`s A n a l y s i s (Dec 21-27)

... The massacre of innocent Christians in Bahawalpur was the last hurrah, for the time being, of the jehadis. When it happened, the PTV went through the shameful exercise of bringing Christian leaders on the screen and making them say that the Indians had done it. Later of course the jehadi thugs who had actually sent the message of you-kill-innocent-Muslims-we-kill-innocent-Christians to George Bush were caught. No one in the PTV apologised for humiliating the defenceless Christians by making them say that the Indians had done it. ...

http://thefridaytimes.com/

In a recent exchange of interacts, sac and I took the position that most international and many internal problems of Pakistan with ideology and Islamic tilt have nothing to do with feudalism, feudals or majority of poor and illiterate people living in villages. Cities have become hotbed of high entropy and low rationality mindset hurting Pakistan and Pakistanis at large. We discussed how cities like Lahore and Karachi support large madrassah and madrassah based mindset. That is why parties like JI have won Mayorship of Karachi and quite popular in certain areas of Lahore. I believe this mindset is the product of our education curriculum and government inspired media to present a closet view of the historical realities. Here is a survey of public opinion from BBC World Service based on interviews in cities like Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad and adjacent Rawalpindi.

[There is strong continuing support for the Taleban among ordinary people in Pakistan, according to a BBC World Service opinion poll.

Who should govern Afghanistan?

The Taleban: 43%

Interim govt: 32%

Taleban/Northern Alliance:7%

Northern Alliance: 3%

Face-to-face interviews were carried out with 500 men and 500 women.

The poll indicates that there is little difference between men and women in their support for the Taleban.

Forty-six per cent of the men and 40% of the women questioned supported the Taleban.

The poll was carried out over the period of a month beginning on 12 November.

Most of the interviews were conducted before the fall of the last Taleban stronghold - Kandahar - on 7 December.

The poll was undertaken by research company A C Neilson in the Pakistani cities of Karachi, Lahore, Rawalpindi and Islamabad.

Strongest support

The strongest support for the Taleban was in Rawalpindi and Islamabad in Punjab province.

Fifty-four per cent of those questioned in the two cities were in favour of the Taleban governing Afghanistan.

The survey also revealed a fair degree of hostility towards the US.

Forty-three per cent of those interviewed described the United States as an arrogant superpower, while 40% said it was not a reliable friend to Pakistan.

Questioned about the policies of the Pakistani President, Pervez Musharraf, 57% said he should support the US war on terrorism, but should have opposed the bombing of Afghanistan.

Twenty-six per cent were opposed to the US action while 9% supported it unconditionally.

Pakistan witnessed a number of pro-Taleban demonstrations after the bombing of Afghanistan started in October - some of which turned violent.

However, as the US campaign continued, the protests became fewer.

The Pakistani Government expressed its full backing for the American campaign against al-Qaeda and the Taleban - despite having forged strong links with the Taleban leadership.]

Mr.Pardesi...... Thank you sir,thak you. Pres4ently i am busyness peak time ok, it christmas time ok. We are big hotel on Dr.Ziauddin road,Karachi we have foren christen guests , no time ok.I thinking is you have no that type hotel in india, ac hot water 24 hours ok.Even hindu guests said this classy hotel. all types of foods ok. ay way.

i read frday time also. Its sethi is open india agent, feeding on india connection.he was arrested for talk in india against pak ok. he was let go as he is from very very importence family and same with his wife ok, they are top punjabi khandan rich foren returned ppl. They is lot of hanky panky sex thigs going people working there ok its not point here. there is attitudae is different o muslim more hindu type liberal.you did not answer why christen killedby india? that is questio point i ask harimou, jay type fanatic hindu fascist , sex liberal antimuslim , antipakistani people ok. good bye busy now. good chrtstmas to indian christia hope bal thakray or bjp do not kill christen for fun. good luck christmes.

ADDRESS BY MUSHERAFF,

`` the great people of pakistan, the decendents of the moghuls and the gaznavis. Pakistan is an islamic secular republic according to the book, and I am reminded of the speach of jinnah, ` you are free to live any religion you choose`, that was his one speach all of the ducated have reapeated fpr so long even though it makes a mockery of the division of india and the great theory of TNT that jinnah exposed. But the great people of pakistan have repeated that so much it is as though I got tinniates, the ringing in the ear decease. For the first time for a pakistani leader, I am goint to exyend a merry christmas and happy new year to the christians of pakistan. I hate to see the indians talking of eid, especially the BJP vajpaye.

I know very well that I could be violating the blasphemy laws by doing this, what the hell, I am a self made ruler, I make the laws. I say hello to the christians. I am a kemalist anarchist.

Pakistan paindabad.

YLH for presidency.

Imran khan for more wives.

BOOO! Islamic parties! Booo! patriotic armed forces of Pakistan. Booo!

Be Afraid, very, very afraid.

Vajpayee, Advani, Sonia and Qanooni - rainbows appear when this constellation is conjured.

Indians are our friends, like the Northern Alliance, another ``liberal`` bunch. But we must listen to these voices; we picked a team that would delivery stability by imprisoning it`s nation in non-reason. We picked wrong (we, does not include the courages Pakistani ``Liberals``)

Pakistani liberals in the drivers seat, everything would be right as rain,(``for things to stay the same, things will have to change``) The religious parties rejection of ``modernity`` has brought ruin to itself - perhaps adaptation may be the next strategy - the armed forces that restored order, brought about international credibility, made painful decision that the ``politicians`` (feudals, sorry ``Liberal`` feudals) would not make - discredited, captive kashmiris will have to wait to taste freedom.

These are imperatives for the Pakistani state, Jihad and freedom do not go together, today. I`ll make you a prediction, keep in mind that there are no poor ``liberals`` in Pakistan (they have the courage to refer to themselves as marxist and socialists) - the Pakistani ``Liberals``, will soon make commmon cause with the same ``upstart`` religious parties - very soon! there`s money in it and these ``Liberals`` have better olfactory senses when it comes to money than sharks do with blood.

See the only actors on this stage who bear responsibility are the religious parties and the patriotic armed forces - Indians also reek of good intentions, much like the Russians and perrenial ``good`` guys, the anglo-sax techno-war race, whose left over the leeches, sorry ``liberals`` will feed on.

All these Pakistan will endure, yet our national nightmare will only end when we can see ``liberal`` Pakistanis for what they are: gutless wonders, still wondering why the 7 sins should even apply to them - sins? who dares accuse them? who dares judge them? Judgement has already been passed on them - it is the sentence that is held in abeyance - pending one last chance to play by the rules of obligation to the nation.

Its strage and a bit depressing to see all these ``so called muslims`` from Pakistan to express their conclusions etc about the very concept of Jehad in Islam. Like many others they have disillusion of their own religion.I am not going to explain the intrinsics of the concept of Jehad in Islam. The word has been abused by muslims so much that the confused generations are now turning against their own religion. They fail to realise that its not Allah or Islam who needs us instead its us who are desperatly in need of Allah and Islam!

Its fairly easy for some to say get over the problem in Kashmir but for me who comes from generations of displaced Muslims from the Indian Kashmir and what my grand parents told me its quite difficult to think even of accepting the Hindus can ever be our ``friends`` and dont tell me that I have no first hand experience I have been living all my life with some of them here in Europe and I for one know who true and sincere they are to me or towards Muslims.

One last thing dont forget Jehad will die out with the ``progressive`` or ``secular`` Pakistan or Islam. Islam and its tennants will and are protected by Allah and He will do so. and please do not forget if you did not have this piece of land called Pakistan then you might as well be working in some field or factory owned by a Hindu. so respect this country and stand for what it stands for and read more about ur religion... Allah will not ask you what you studied in Digital Sinal Processing class but rather what did u read in Numaz. Just give it a thought.

Sometimes I wonder.. with their perspective of all the troubles of the subcontinent laid squaresly at the feet of Pakistan, writers like Aqil seem to automatically exonerate India and Indian policy of any of the misunderstanding and conflict, and make it seem that while Pakistan is suqarely anti-India, the same feeling is not reciprocated. Aqil, do you read Indian papers or 90% of Indian interactors on chowk at all? Heck, just going through the random selection in Yahoo News proves to be quite.. enlightening.

Of course, this post will immediately be read as rabid, unflinching support of jehadis, the Taleban, al-Qaeda and the wanton slaugher of civilians.

Romair

“I am waiting for the day when a Pakistani writes an article in which he blames himself, his ethnicity, his social views, his organization etc. for the faults of Pakistan”

….right on….it’s getting pretty tiring hearing people whining on and on about the faults of the gov’t without the least bit of cursory introspection….how many of us have actually tried to make things better ourselves?….taught someone to read?….not used rishwat/safarish to get smt done and to avoid the hassle?…picked litter off the street?…fed a street person?….volunteered at the local shelter, sos village etc?…small things, yes….but rome wasn’t built in one day…

Dear Mr. Aqil Shah,

Assalam o Alaekum.

[Are you the same PML(N)person from Peshawer? If so your article fits the personna you represent, and you may disregard the remaining portion of my inter-act!]

Believe in the `paradigm` shift because it is for real and in our national interest. Must we always be looking for the `hidden` reasons always? Why is `intent` always suspect?

I do understand your concern: after all it is not an everyday occurrence for Pakistani leaders to be considering their national interests first and foremost!

Regards.

Mateen

Re: Shammi

The reason that I want the Indian evidence against Pakistan published is to discredit and disabuse the romantic notion of these organizations work, held within Pakistan, in Kashmir. It is not to convince me; if you would have read my articles on Chowk over the last two years, you would have realized what I believed in.

On the other hand, if you want war and are willing to wage a war on Pakistan, then please do not let the trival matter of an evidence bother you. Pakistan has a multitude of internal demons, which will have to tamed and Pakistan has no choice, but to deal with its problems with or without India making it difficult for Pakistan.

As to the Chinese Muslim extermists, it would be interesting to see, whether a link can be established between them and the Chinese Muslims. All Pakistan needs to do is establish a causal link and tackle the LeT and HuM for their connections in fermenting unrest in China. Most Pakistanis would accept that reasoning, because of their attitude that Pakistani-Chinese friendship needs to be preserved. Musharraf may opt to deal with these groups under the above mentioned pretext, because remember China also occupies Kashmir and if the intention of these groups is to liberate Kashmir, then the Chinese Kashmir could also be considered as a focus of their efforts and that implies creating unrest in Chinese occupied Kashmir.

Musharraf cannot tackle these groups directly without risking a popular opinion and he will try to deal with them via a political detour and minimize the popular reaction in Pakistan. Bush when he announced that these groups were being put on the terrorist list, mentioned they were ``stateless`` and undermining Musharraf`s government. Why did he say that? Pakistan`s cooperation in the anti-terror coalition did not end with Afghanistan and again, Bush has been reported as saying that he keeps a scorecard on each nation and how they are performing in this war against terror.

Pakistan will have no choice, but to act in this matter and it is not a question of if, but rather when. The only problem is that the ``when`` needs to be defined and marked out in a sense that it maintains Musharraf`s power in Pakistan, does not undermine the United States interests in the region and helps India in its struggles against these groups. It will be a delicate balancing act.

Yes, I would agree that the next round against terrorism will be Kashmir and Pakistan. It has to be, because the menace of terror has to be removed from Pakistan and the polarization of Pakistani politics along religious lines has to be ended. In my personal opinion, Musharraf will move against the LeT and HuM, because they pose a threat to his own stability. If on the other hand, he is removed from power then all bets are off as to who will replace him. Hence, he needs to move carefully in order to tackle these groups and the United States, in the short term, cannot push him too far.

The first step in the process, was the replacement of the ISI chief, but replacing the head of the ISI does not mean much untill the whole ISI is purged. That will take time, but it will be done, because now Musharraf has no option, but to continue taming the extermist tiger - he cannot afford to get down without finishing the job. The war against the extermists in Pakistan started, when Pakistan agreed to American demands in the aftermath of September 11, 2001. The rout of the Taliban demoralized the religious element in Pakistan and made them vunerable in the arena of public opinion for the first time. Most Pakistanis were shocked at the way the Taliban folded and seemed to prefer secular matters over religious ones - life over death.

The same thing needs to done and the Pakistanis shown the true nature of these organizations who are doing more damage to the Kashmiri right of self-determination than India and Pakistan combined.

I have no idea how this will all end; I can only hope for the best!

Ciao

Aqil Shah, your views are very similar to Arun Shourie`s. Some sentences seem to have been picked up directly from his recent articles.

This I found funny:

[For one, the India-bashing on PTV clearly belies Islamabad`s purported reversal of its jihad policy]

Have you seen Zee tv, Star Tv or Door darshan lately? In a warlike atmosphere, it is appropriate and neccessary to ``bash`` the enemy and PTV is doing a fair job. What do you recommend it should do? Broadcast Bagpipe`s poetry?

Aqil,

``Aqil, do you read Indian papers or 90% of Indian interactors on chowk at all? Heck, just going through the random selection in Yahoo News proves to be quite.. enlightening.``

The above is an advice to you from one of the chowk posters. No aqil dont read those, rather look at the government actions in pakistan. Actions of the collectve, institutionalised hatred is the key, not the posts of insignificance on the chowk and yahoo.

Hatred in pakistan is institutionalised against people of other religion, identifying a hindu is acurriculum requirement, and that is where it all starts. Then comes the blasphemy laws, a hindu has been arrested for making fun of a muslims beard. Then read the what is on the pass port. Then read all those non-articles honouring the abdus salam, and please, aqil, please do not look for abdus salam institute for theoretical physics in pakistan.

Make a call to the kemalist musheraff and ask him will he allow a conference in honour of abdus salam.

Now reread the post of assad-k and tell him, I like facts, manifest hatred, institutionalised hatred, the culmination and frution of an ideology that created pakistan.

regards

jay

``We regret the very arrogant and knee-jerk response of the Indian government...We (Pakistan and Afghanistan) are neighbors and need to live as good friends`` Musharraf said.

How much better it would have been if Musharraf had chosen to balance Indian `arrogance` with a few unkind words for the LeT and JeM. Unfortunately for him, global public opinion is not going to let a dictator call a democracy arrogant, while turning a blind eye on terrorists. Musharraf`s prescription for Pak-Afghan relations is strangely not being applied to Indo-Pak relations. Sigh. India, meanwhile, is not taking the hints that Musharraf is giving. A sampler from the Indian press:

``India`s graduated approach, through a measured exercize of options, seeks to penalize Pakistan not through immediate application of force but through controlled non-military retribution in the form of gradual, modulated steps up the punishment ladder, analysts said. Such is the degree of hostility towards Pakistan that no party barring the Left Front has come out to advocate moderation. ``

``Foreign Secretary S.K. Singh, who has been an envoy to Pakistan, said Vajpayee was opposed to the idea of hot pursuit of militants inside Pakistan. But, he added: ``He has other options in mind. For instance, ending the Indus Valley Water Treaty and starving Sindh and Punjab, scaling down of the mission,`` Singh said. The Indus Water Treaty of 1960 governs the distribution of water from the Indus river and its tributaries between India and Pakistan.

``And when Pakistan has digested this, we can stop over flights. We don`t need their airspace, they need ours,`` Singh was quoted by the newspaper today online daily as saying``

Re: NASAH

``You are right in suggesting that instead of the 52 years of this knee jerk failed policy of India baiting -- why not try for a change -- the opposite friendship with India -- where almost half of Pakistani relatives live``

Laaton ke bhoot, baaton se nahin mantey. Musharraf has recently stated that Pakistan and Afghanistan need to live like good neighbors -- as friends. Strangely, this wisdom is not applied to Indo-Pak relations. Could the comprehensive defeat of Pakistan`s Afghanistan policy have something to do with Musharraf`s new-found wisdom?

Ref OmarAkram #: 28

[Allah will not ask you what you studied in Digital Sinal Processing class but rather what did u read in Numaz. Just give it a thought.]

Good thinking. Time to shut down Ghulam Ishaq Khan Institute of Technology and start a few madrassahs. While you are at it, shut down the medical schools also.

Allah is also likely to ask you whether you killed any infidels or not, whether you kept your women chaste and pure under the burqa and a whole lot of other uncomfortable questions which directly relate to the Koran. So, get yards of cloth and make sure you employ only female tailors for the clothes for your female relatives.

re: the retard who wrote this

{Allah will not ask you what you studied in Digital Sinal Processing class but rather what did u read in Numaz. Just give it a thought.}

where does this Q&A session with allah take place?...what is the best way to get there?...do indian troops give you an express trip as you sneak into indian territory as a jehadi terrorist?

#36 shammi

Singh`s idea to ``starve`` punjab & sindh is dangerous, goes against civilizational norms and would rightly array foreign powers against india. Blockade sea lanes if you must, restrict over flights - these are luxuries. But water rights are not. Hope india does not go down THAT road. It would also be declaring war on the citizens of pakistan..

re omarakram

``Allah will not ask you what you studied in Digital Sinal Processing class but rather what did u read in Numaz. Just give it a thought.``

Did Allah give you an advance copy of the test questions?

Jihad, jihad, jihad. The only jihad that needs to happen is the one against terror, terrorists, and terror sponsors. Listen carefully to what President Bush has repeatedly said: there will be no respite until the last thug is brought to justice (or justice brought to him).

We are truly in the advent of a new duality that replaces the old US-USSR split. This time it is the pluralist, progressive, modernists versus the retrograde apologists of middle aged barbarity. And as before, the free world shall win. Not the least because `without victory there is no hope for civilization`(Churchill).

re ahmad madani

``Jinnah Sahib has asked pakistan for liberation of kashmir``

Jinnah sahib had also asked you guys to create a modern parliamentary democracy where `religion ceases to be a matter for the state(8/11/47). Funny you remembered only the Kashmir part. But well as it may. So, I can assume that you will start fulfilling your oath to Jinnah sahib by promptly relinquishing the Pakistani-held part of Kashmir?

``E.Pak. was scrafise for K.``

No, the erstwhile East Pakistan decided through her elected representatives to give the boot to the Punjabi Army. There was no Kashmir involved here.

``... do not forget it. Without K. Pakistan is nothing. ``

If your education in reflected in the spelling and grammar of this post, I am afraid even with Kashmir it won`t change much.

``...like lead without pretty eyes. it is bindig thing. Sindhis,punjabis....``

You forget the other binding thing-PIA!

``it defends against indian tank thrust in pak. ``

No, it runs the secretariats, wapda, PIA, hubco, cricket boards, and welfare trusts. Occasionally it also butchers Bengalis and Baluchis so that medals can be earned the hard way. When actually faced with real opposition, it meekly surrenders 90,000 men without much fight. Sadly that is what happens when the corrosion of power and civilian comforts gets to a professional army. The Pakistan Army of 1947 and 1948 was more than a match for India`s. Fifty years of indulging in politics has left it a pale and bloated shadow of its former glory.

Take THAT HINDIAN HOGEMONISTS!!!!!! esp Harimiaowmiaowmiaow1

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/dec2001-weekly/nos-23-12-2001/lit.htm#4

Separating Urdu from Sanskrit

Pakistani intellectuals have been looking for the roots of their separate identity in the remote past for the last two decades. They are not satisfied with the two-nation theory propounded by Allama Iqbal, according to which religion was the basis of nationhood and accordingly the Hindus and Muslims of the Indian sub-continent were separate nations.

They go deeper. They want to show that Pakistan and its culture has its roots in the prehistoric eras.They believe that the Indus and the Gangetic valleys have always been home to separate civilizations. Being the heir to the Indus valley civilization, Pakistan is a geographic entity whose roots go back to time immemorial.



Many intellectuals have taken pains to substantiate this theory. Professor Qudrat Ullah Fatmi, to my knowledge, was the first to write a book on it. Aenul Haq Faridkoti and Prof. Mohammad Asif followed him. However, Aitazaz Ashan`s book titled Sindh Saga carries the best and long drawn out exposition of this concept. Now Khalid Hasan Qadiri has joined this group of theoreticians. In one of his articles published in the current issue of the monthly Al-Ma `arif of Lahore under the title of `Rough notes on Urdu` he has come up with the claim that the Urdu language has nothing to do with Sanskrit and that its roots are far deeper than this language of the gods and goddesses.

Hitherto, the generally held belief has been that Urdu came into being as a result of social contacts between the Muslims who came to India during the middle ages and the native population. So the language was taken to be a cross-breed of Turko-Persian-Arabic vocables with the local dialects. This is, in a nutshell, the view held by such eminent linguists as G.A. Griesson and Sir Charles Lyall, to mention only two. This theory presupposed that these dialects themselves were based upon, or rather were a by-product of Sanskrit.

Khalid Hasan Qadiri want us to understand that the situation is not as simple or straight forward as it seems or is presented. One has to go very far back in history or rather to prehistory, and turnover many strata of periods of time.

Going back in history, he reaches the conclusion that Urdu has its roots in the languages of the Munda tribes who were the inhabitants of the Indus Valley in pre-Dravidian periods. This view is supposed to be based on the latest excavations of Amri, Nal, Roper, Rajasthan and Kathyawar.

In this way we are led to belive that the Urdu language has a very well-defined and clear-cut grammar, absolutely different from Sanskrit in every respect. The very basic philosophy governing the grammatical structure of these two languages is totally different. And by any stretch of imagination one cannot state Urdu to have emanated from the sacred language of the Hindus. Grammatically speaking Urdu owes nothing to Sanskrit. Hence it cannot be grouped with the Aryan language either. It clearly belongs to some non-Aryan group of languages. And this view is supposed to give us us some solace.

I think the article is basically on the mark. While the intentions of those responsible for the Delhi attack may not be clear, the affects are very clear: at a time when Pakistan badly needed peace with India while it moved substantial forces to control it`s western borders, and as the movement towards the return of democracy was picking up momentum with the advent of local self-governments, the country now has to gear itself for another military confrontation with India.

Whoever was responsible for this attack did not have the interests of the Pakistani people or any other people in mind - only his own political ambitions.

Jaish-e-Mohammed #31 I assume you are a spokesman for, member of, or at least a sympathizer of, this group which I believe is engaged in an armed intervention on the other side of the LoC. Correct me if I am wrong. I have read your post, and see that the entire focus is on how groups like yours and like the taliban can come to power. The misery of the ordinary people in Pakistan means nothing to you. Reasoning and rationale means nothing to you. All you see is visions of power, and those you see coming in the way (journalists, politicians, Musharaff) are subject to your venom.

People like you are beneath contempt, and I will not try to teach you what you never learnt when you were growing up. All I will tell you is this: Cut down your political ambitions to your limited capacities - better to do an honest days work as a clerk or a chaprasi than to kill people in hopes of finding a shortcut to power. Mend your mischievous ways while you still have time on earth. The whole recognizes you people for what you are, and you will find peace neither in this world nor in the next if you continue with your mischievous and violent ways.

KABUL: ‘‘The word India is a passport in Afghanistan now,’’ said external affairs minister Jaswant Singh on Saturday after formally reopening the Indian Embassy in Kabul with a flag-hoisting ceremony.

Terming it ‘‘a very humbling experience’’ to reopen the embassy that had to be abandoned amidst violence, Singh expressed deep satisfaction at being able ‘‘to see fruition of a policy’’.

‘‘The palpable goodwill for India is heartwarming’’ Singh said, adding ‘‘this makes you feel useful’’.(Jaswant Sngh)

Indeed -- it is a vindication of policy of secular humanism -- hammered by Nehru -- in the psyche of Indians politics -- that has put India in the good books of most Muslims populated countries -- consistently for the past 54 years.

So -- carry on Nehru`s legacy, Jaswant -- and don`t mess it up -- by aligning with the likes of that world pariah -- the Butcher of Beirut -- Sharon the Moron.

BJP fascists -- Sharon`s fascists -- are NOT ``bhai bhai`` -- don`t touch that Israeli Nazi with a ten foot pole -- won`t be kosher -- in fact -- very UnIndian.

So -- stay on course -- stay ``useful`` -- great job.

Have Talibans been destroyed? -- doesn`t look like --they have been rescued by the Eastern Alliance and sent back to the beome ``innocent`` Pushtoons to wait for their come back -- no accountability, no retribution for their criminal acts?

Here is an interesting article -- trying to into the murky caves of Pushtoon`s culture.

For a Feared Taliban Officer, Few Worries About Reprisals



By John Pomfret

Washington Post Staff Writer

Monday, December 24, 2001; Page A10

KANDAHAR, Afghanistan -- Nabibullah Rabbani`s whip is a simple affair, more like a limp paddle or a stunted belt. He hangs it on the wall of his living room under a verse from the Koran.

Rabbani, 37, was an officer in the Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice -- the feared religious police of the Taliban Islamic militia. His job, he said, involved ``promoting Islamic law.``

That entailed ``teaching women lessons, and making men fear God,`` he said over a cup of tea one quiet evening recently. He did this, he acknowledged, by whipping women on their buttocks, legs and hands, and sometimes across their covered faces. He grabbed men`s whiskers or bent their fingers, he said.

Following the fall of the Taliban, Rabbani did not flee to neighboring Pakistan or hide in the mountains of Afghanistan. Instead, he simply stayed home. Like thousands of other foot soldiers who took part in the Taliban effort to turn Afghanistan into an 8th-century vision of Islamic purity, Rabbani apparently has no fear of retribution for the rough treatment he administered for the last five years.

Rabbani`s story illustrates an important element of the war in Afghanistan. While the Taliban has been defeated, it is still very much in place. Taliban officials -- from those at street level such as Rabbani to men such as Abdul Razaq, the Taliban`s former interior minister -- say they are ready, if given the opportunity, to retake power.

``I do not see this war as having ended,`` Rabbani said. ``You Americans come from very far away. We are in Afghanistan. You will leave sometime, maybe one year or two years later. And we will still be here.``

Rabbani, a graduate of a madrassa, or religious school, in Pakistan, joined the Taliban in 1995 as it was gathering steam. He joined the religious police force in 1996 as it was expanding in the southern city of Kandahar. The job was one of the best in the city because it came with a guaranteed salary. ``We were special,`` he said with an almost wistful tone.

Afghanistan`s religious police were paid by the Al Rashid Trust, a charity based in Karachi, Pakistan, whose assets were frozen after President Bush identified it as an organization that supported terrorism -- an allegation the organization has denied. The trust also was involved in one of Afghanistan`s biggest construction projects, the building of the Omar Mosque in Kandahar, which was postponed last year because of a lack of money. Millions of dollars are believed to have been embezzled in that deal.

With his salary, Rabbani was a big man in his neighborhood of mud houses and dirt-poor people. Mohammed Najib, his next-door neighbor, said he respected Rabbani for his Islamic education and his ability to recite long passages from the Koran.

Najib said that on several occasions Rabbani criticized his beard for not meeting Taliban requirements, saying it should have been longer than two fists. ``He pulled me around once,`` Najib said. But he said Rabbani also doled out sweets to Najib`s children.

Najib`s views on his neighbor illustrate another reality following the Taliban`s fall: After 23 years of war, Afghans are so numbed by conflict that the certainty of Rabbani`s brutality was for many almost more welcome than the instability inherent in the creation of a new government.

``We know who the Taliban were,`` Najib said, standing in the courtyard of his house -- a two-room dwelling that has no plumbing or electricity. ``We really don`t know the new leaders. They have a bad reputation. The Taliban were very mean and tough. But generally we didn`t see so much corruption.``

From around a corner, Najib`s wife interrupted.

``I am glad they are gone,`` she said, declining to show herself. ``People like Rabbani are bad people. Go to his house and see if he practices what he preaches.``

Najib was visibly embarrassed. ``Women don`t understand politics,`` he said.

``What?`` came the reply from the other side of the wall. ``This man over there whipped me once because I wore white shoes. The day it happened you were enraged and now you have forgotten.`` The religious police banned people from wearing white shoes because white was the symbolic color of the Taliban.

Inside Rabbani`s house, signs of modernity -- something the Taliban rejected -- were indeed present. The family owns a television, despite Taliban pronouncements against it. They have radios and, in a drawer that Rabbani somewhat guiltily opened, there are family photographs taken before the Taliban takeover.

``I don`t believe in these,`` he said, ``but my wife would be hurt without them.``

Despite the contradictions in his personal life, Rabbani said he was confident the Taliban would return to power. ``None of us has been arrested and you see the people are not turning on us,`` he said.

Indeed, there have been few, if any, retribution killings of Taliban officials, and anti-Taliban forces have not been vigilant about rounding up Taliban leaders. Several top commanders, wanted for massacres of civilians, have been released from the custody of the Northern Alliance and other forces.

``People understand we are the righteous ones and they know we could come back to power soon,`` Rabbani said. ``So they will be soft with us. Because they know if we are angry with them, we will be hard with them when we are running Afghanistan again.``

Weird place -- Afghanistan.

SAVING THE CROWN JEWELLS

Pakistan which nurtured and sustained taliban betryed them to save the crown jewell, the bomb. The people of pakistan never realised that a bankrupt failed state cannot keep such a weapon of mass distruction with out paying price all along the way.

Now the west have realised that providing economic support for pakistan with out neutralising the bomb is like driving toa precipice. hardly any debt forgiving has come in the way of pakistan, all that has come is rescheduling, which is simply postponing of the inevitable. Pakistan is heading towards argentina.

Any economic help with out changes in the basic jihadic structure of pakistan only implies a reinforcing of these terrorist forces. Jihadists based in a thriving econmy is more dangerous, considering the devastation cause by al-quaida. Pakistan with the bomb technology and the economy on the up is a deadly combination. Many have realised this, and there is a developing concensus on the modes of restraining jihadic countries, and their frontiers.

romair and his chapta friends are not going to like this one bit

{{US clears Israeli Phalcon sale to India



JERUSALEM: The US has cleared the sale of one billion dollar Israeli Phalcon early warning radar system to India, according to American administration sources.

The US administration supports the sale of the Phalcon to India and has informed the Israeli defence ministry of a green signal for the transaction, the sources said.

The Defence Ministry has updated the US on the advanced negotiations about the deal with India though the Foreign Ministry fears that the sale could anger China with which Israel cancelled a signed deal last year under US pressure.

The controversial deal with Beijing, which included the installation of a Phalcon early warning radar on a Russian-built aircraft by Israel Aircraft Industries, was scrapped last year following intense pressure from Bill Clinton administration with Beijing expressing ange