Running Naked
Anwar Iqbal December 25, 2001
#194 Posted by hamidm on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
....pakis, indians - what is the difference ... i wish i was chinese
...... the bellagio in vegas was full of chinese, chinks, japs , gooks and other orientals dressed in gucci sitting at the blackjack and roulette tables happily loosing tens of thousands of dollars between sips of coffee .... little chinese grandmas walked around dribbling hundred dollar chips and watched with amusement as the natives played the quarter slot machines......and the women - i never realized how good oriental women can look in designer clothes - definitely better than hyderabadi beauties with two clips and a bow in curly hair recently liberated from a pig-tail .......they packed the buffet lines and shopped at armanis and donned their jackets for fifty dollar steaks while the few indians, in dress pants and white sneakers, headed for dennys and the two-ninetynine breakfast special - the pakis were nowhere to be seen .......... i guess they are all preparing for jihad and the life hereafter, or simply recovering from the ordeal of ramadhan ..........
....go ahead and blow up the cess-pool and its miserable inhabitants - i am chinese ......
P.S. ... the blue man group was fantastic and O was okay ........
...... the bellagio in vegas was full of chinese, chinks, japs , gooks and other orientals dressed in gucci sitting at the blackjack and roulette tables happily loosing tens of thousands of dollars between sips of coffee .... little chinese grandmas walked around dribbling hundred dollar chips and watched with amusement as the natives played the quarter slot machines......and the women - i never realized how good oriental women can look in designer clothes - definitely better than hyderabadi beauties with two clips and a bow in curly hair recently liberated from a pig-tail .......they packed the buffet lines and shopped at armanis and donned their jackets for fifty dollar steaks while the few indians, in dress pants and white sneakers, headed for dennys and the two-ninetynine breakfast special - the pakis were nowhere to be seen .......... i guess they are all preparing for jihad and the life hereafter, or simply recovering from the ordeal of ramadhan ..........
....go ahead and blow up the cess-pool and its miserable inhabitants - i am chinese ......
P.S. ... the blue man group was fantastic and O was okay ........
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#193 Posted by M.A.Jinnah on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
While his ascension to the presidency -- he overthrew Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in 1999 -- struck an ominous chord internationally, many agree Musharraf`s approach to governing has been pragmatic and geared toward modernization.
Even his support of the Taliban militia before September -- part of a Pakistani pattern of secular governments backing militant Islamic movements -- was more tactical than ideological.
Pakistan Faces Dual Dilemma
By TED ANTHONY, Associated Press Writer
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan -- To the west, Pakistani forces patrol the rugged Afghan frontier, guarding mountain passes to help the United States stop al-Qaida fugitives from creeping in. To the east, as another squabble with India gathers steam, border towns stage air-raid drills and gird for hostilities.
Pakistan ends a tumultuous year surrounded by sticky situations. And its dual dilemma illustrates the government`s efforts to parlay post-Sept. 11 problems into opportunities for a solidified, more permanent place on the international stage.
``Something different is happening here,`` said Nasim Zehra, a Pakistani political analyst. ``I think there`s an internal reassessment going on as to how best to promote Pakistan`s interests.``
Just as President Gen. Pervez Musharraf`s support of the American anti-terrorism fight gave Pakistan respect and clout, Islamabad`s cautious response to fresh unrest with India seems designed to amplify what it is trying hard to project: that Pakistan is a responsible, mature nation.
``Pakistan is in touch with a number of governments, and they all are urging restraint -- which is also Pakistan`s position,`` Foreign Ministry spokesman Aziz Ahmed Khan said Thursday.
Any flareup between South Asia`s nuclear rivals understandably makes the world nervous. But given the global anti-terrorism battle and the coalition it has produced, this latest scrap, over a Dec. 13 attack on India`s Parliament that New Delhi accuses Pakistan-backed groups of staging, has echoed beyond the region more than usual.
The United States doesn`t want two pivotal friends fighting. U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell has been working the phones and urging restraint. And China, Asia`s most powerful country and a strong ally of Pakistan, said Thursday it was ``deeply worried`` at the tensions.
At this moment in his nation`s history, Musharraf has every reason to listen.
While his ascension to the presidency -- he overthrew Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in 1999 -- struck an ominous chord internationally, many agree Musharraf`s approach to governing has been pragmatic and geared toward modernization.
Even his support of the Taliban militia before September -- part of a Pakistani pattern of secular governments backing militant Islamic movements -- was more tactical than ideological.
But Sept. 11 brought big change to Pakistan. Within days, President Bush had asked Islamabad for its full cooperation. Musharraf didn`t hesitate, and -- for the time being -- his gambit has paid off.
``Prior to Sept. 11, India thought they had the international community on their side and Pakistan was a thing of the past. Now, Pakistan has risen from the ashes. and the Indians are totally stunned,`` said Riffat Hussain, chairman of the Department of Defense and Strategic Studies at Islamabad`s Quaid-e-Azam University.
Even before that, Pakistan was juggling internationalism with the demands of powerful, more conservative factions. Helping the United States made it harder, producing large, occasionally violent anti-Musharraf protests orchestrated by Taliban-friendly Islamic militant leaders.
But Musharraf made a point of publicly saying the critics were a tiny minority who didn`t have Pakistan`s best interests in mind -- a crossroads that one international scholar calls part of ``a defining moment for the modernizers in Pakistan.``
``Which way is Pakistan going to go? Weak and irrelevant? Seen as a rogue? Or is it going to convert itself into an emerging state?`` said Tom Farer, dean of the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in Colorado. ``It needs to choose, and all of what`s happened in the past few months has only accelerated the process.``
This week`s approach to India suggests the process continues. Pakistan froze the bank accounts of two militant groups that India implicated in the Parliament attack, though India wants more action. And unlike previous spats, Pakistan seems more cautious in its rhetoric. Officials, while condemning New Delhi for ``sinister designs,`` say they will not comment on every development so as not to aggravate things.
In a major speech Tuesday, the 125th birthday of Pakistan`s founder, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, Musharraf echoed Jinnah`s vision and cast himself in the same light. He invoked Pakistan`s Islamic identity and the importance of tradition, but he condemned corruption, blind fundamentalism and people who have ``undermined Islam`` in the eyes of the world.
``We confront an external and internal challenge,`` he said. ``We have to rechart our course.``
Whatever direction the course takes, it seems sure to remain delicate for some time.
``Pakistan knows any increase of the hostilities with India will have tremendous diplomatic and economic fallout. And that will push Pakistan back to the back of the world stage,`` Hussain said. ``It`s a difficult tightrope walk that Musharraf has used to pull Pakistan out of diplomatic isolation. But if there`s any escalation, much of that will be undone.``
Copyright 2001 Associated Press
a d v e r t i s i n g
Even his support of the Taliban militia before September -- part of a Pakistani pattern of secular governments backing militant Islamic movements -- was more tactical than ideological.
Pakistan Faces Dual Dilemma
By TED ANTHONY, Associated Press Writer
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan -- To the west, Pakistani forces patrol the rugged Afghan frontier, guarding mountain passes to help the United States stop al-Qaida fugitives from creeping in. To the east, as another squabble with India gathers steam, border towns stage air-raid drills and gird for hostilities.
Pakistan ends a tumultuous year surrounded by sticky situations. And its dual dilemma illustrates the government`s efforts to parlay post-Sept. 11 problems into opportunities for a solidified, more permanent place on the international stage.
``Something different is happening here,`` said Nasim Zehra, a Pakistani political analyst. ``I think there`s an internal reassessment going on as to how best to promote Pakistan`s interests.``
Just as President Gen. Pervez Musharraf`s support of the American anti-terrorism fight gave Pakistan respect and clout, Islamabad`s cautious response to fresh unrest with India seems designed to amplify what it is trying hard to project: that Pakistan is a responsible, mature nation.
``Pakistan is in touch with a number of governments, and they all are urging restraint -- which is also Pakistan`s position,`` Foreign Ministry spokesman Aziz Ahmed Khan said Thursday.
Any flareup between South Asia`s nuclear rivals understandably makes the world nervous. But given the global anti-terrorism battle and the coalition it has produced, this latest scrap, over a Dec. 13 attack on India`s Parliament that New Delhi accuses Pakistan-backed groups of staging, has echoed beyond the region more than usual.
The United States doesn`t want two pivotal friends fighting. U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell has been working the phones and urging restraint. And China, Asia`s most powerful country and a strong ally of Pakistan, said Thursday it was ``deeply worried`` at the tensions.
At this moment in his nation`s history, Musharraf has every reason to listen.
While his ascension to the presidency -- he overthrew Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif in 1999 -- struck an ominous chord internationally, many agree Musharraf`s approach to governing has been pragmatic and geared toward modernization.
Even his support of the Taliban militia before September -- part of a Pakistani pattern of secular governments backing militant Islamic movements -- was more tactical than ideological.
But Sept. 11 brought big change to Pakistan. Within days, President Bush had asked Islamabad for its full cooperation. Musharraf didn`t hesitate, and -- for the time being -- his gambit has paid off.
``Prior to Sept. 11, India thought they had the international community on their side and Pakistan was a thing of the past. Now, Pakistan has risen from the ashes. and the Indians are totally stunned,`` said Riffat Hussain, chairman of the Department of Defense and Strategic Studies at Islamabad`s Quaid-e-Azam University.
Even before that, Pakistan was juggling internationalism with the demands of powerful, more conservative factions. Helping the United States made it harder, producing large, occasionally violent anti-Musharraf protests orchestrated by Taliban-friendly Islamic militant leaders.
But Musharraf made a point of publicly saying the critics were a tiny minority who didn`t have Pakistan`s best interests in mind -- a crossroads that one international scholar calls part of ``a defining moment for the modernizers in Pakistan.``
``Which way is Pakistan going to go? Weak and irrelevant? Seen as a rogue? Or is it going to convert itself into an emerging state?`` said Tom Farer, dean of the Graduate School of International Studies at the University of Denver in Colorado. ``It needs to choose, and all of what`s happened in the past few months has only accelerated the process.``
This week`s approach to India suggests the process continues. Pakistan froze the bank accounts of two militant groups that India implicated in the Parliament attack, though India wants more action. And unlike previous spats, Pakistan seems more cautious in its rhetoric. Officials, while condemning New Delhi for ``sinister designs,`` say they will not comment on every development so as not to aggravate things.
In a major speech Tuesday, the 125th birthday of Pakistan`s founder, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, Musharraf echoed Jinnah`s vision and cast himself in the same light. He invoked Pakistan`s Islamic identity and the importance of tradition, but he condemned corruption, blind fundamentalism and people who have ``undermined Islam`` in the eyes of the world.
``We confront an external and internal challenge,`` he said. ``We have to rechart our course.``
Whatever direction the course takes, it seems sure to remain delicate for some time.
``Pakistan knows any increase of the hostilities with India will have tremendous diplomatic and economic fallout. And that will push Pakistan back to the back of the world stage,`` Hussain said. ``It`s a difficult tightrope walk that Musharraf has used to pull Pakistan out of diplomatic isolation. But if there`s any escalation, much of that will be undone.``
Copyright 2001 Associated Press
a d v e r t i s i n g
#192 Posted by mohajir on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
G8 Urges Pakistan to Crack Down on Militants
http://reuters.activebuddy.com/s?id=DSU1WLGXPAS
Fri 10:50 AM
MOSCOW (Reuters) - G8 foreign ministers called on Pakistan Friday to crack down on ``terrorists`` operating from its territory and expressed concern about rising India-Pakistan tension after a deadly attack on the New Delhi parliament.
In a statement released in Moscow ministers from the Group of Eight, comprising the world`s seven leading industrial states and Russia, said they ``firmly condemn terrorism in all its guises, including the attack on the Indian Parliament building.``
Noting Islamabad`s condemnation of the attack, the ministers said they ``urge Pakistan to take further measures against terrorist groups acting on its territory which target India in particular.``
They also urged Islamabad to arrest and bring to trial militants and cut off their finances.
New Delhi blames the December 13 attack, in which 14 people died, on Pakistan-based Kashmiri militants, a charge Islamabad denies.
India and Pakistan, which are nuclear powers, have massed troops on their tense border and have exchanged fire across the cease-fire line dividing the disputed Kashmir region.
In their communiqu, the G8 ministers expressed ``serious concern about rising tension between India and Pakistan`` in the wake of the parliament attack.
They also praised Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee`s statement that New Delhi wanted a diplomatic solution to its differences with Islamabad, and urged both sides not to escalate the situation.
The Group of Eight comprises Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United States and Russia.
The release of the statement in Moscow, even though Italy currently chairs the body, further underscores Russia`s desire to play a key role in the global anti-terrorism coalition forged in the wake of the September 11 attacks on U.S. cities.
Russia has been a key supporter of the U.S. military campaign in Afghanistan against the chief suspects in those attacks.
Moscow says it has been fighting the same international terrorism, as that behind the strikes on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, in its rebellious Chechnya province
http://reuters.activebuddy.com/s?id=DSU1WLGXPAS
Fri 10:50 AM
MOSCOW (Reuters) - G8 foreign ministers called on Pakistan Friday to crack down on ``terrorists`` operating from its territory and expressed concern about rising India-Pakistan tension after a deadly attack on the New Delhi parliament.
In a statement released in Moscow ministers from the Group of Eight, comprising the world`s seven leading industrial states and Russia, said they ``firmly condemn terrorism in all its guises, including the attack on the Indian Parliament building.``
Noting Islamabad`s condemnation of the attack, the ministers said they ``urge Pakistan to take further measures against terrorist groups acting on its territory which target India in particular.``
They also urged Islamabad to arrest and bring to trial militants and cut off their finances.
New Delhi blames the December 13 attack, in which 14 people died, on Pakistan-based Kashmiri militants, a charge Islamabad denies.
India and Pakistan, which are nuclear powers, have massed troops on their tense border and have exchanged fire across the cease-fire line dividing the disputed Kashmir region.
In their communiqu, the G8 ministers expressed ``serious concern about rising tension between India and Pakistan`` in the wake of the parliament attack.
They also praised Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee`s statement that New Delhi wanted a diplomatic solution to its differences with Islamabad, and urged both sides not to escalate the situation.
The Group of Eight comprises Britain, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United States and Russia.
The release of the statement in Moscow, even though Italy currently chairs the body, further underscores Russia`s desire to play a key role in the global anti-terrorism coalition forged in the wake of the September 11 attacks on U.S. cities.
Russia has been a key supporter of the U.S. military campaign in Afghanistan against the chief suspects in those attacks.
Moscow says it has been fighting the same international terrorism, as that behind the strikes on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, in its rebellious Chechnya province
#191 Posted by shammi on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
Re: Romair
``I am unable to comprehend what the current Indian actions aim to achieve.``
The NY Times comprehends them too:
``… Of course, one can`t help sympathizing with India. Nobody deserves having a prickly and unstable country like Pakistan next door. Pakistan`s intelligence service killed more people in terrorist incidents over the years than Osama bin Laden did… We need to lean on Mr. Musharraf to place known anti-Indian militants like Maulana Masood Azhar under meaningful arrest. Likewise, India needs to tone down its talk of war, back off on military mobilization and ease up on its harsh rule in Kashmir…``
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/28/opinion/28KRIS.html
``I am unable to comprehend what the current Indian actions aim to achieve.``
The NY Times comprehends them too:
``… Of course, one can`t help sympathizing with India. Nobody deserves having a prickly and unstable country like Pakistan next door. Pakistan`s intelligence service killed more people in terrorist incidents over the years than Osama bin Laden did… We need to lean on Mr. Musharraf to place known anti-Indian militants like Maulana Masood Azhar under meaningful arrest. Likewise, India needs to tone down its talk of war, back off on military mobilization and ease up on its harsh rule in Kashmir…``
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/28/opinion/28KRIS.html
#190 Posted by shammi on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
Re: Romair
``...I am unable to comprehend what the current Indian actions aim to achieve...``
And there is even more evidence that everyone understands what India wants. Are you still in doubt? Read this statement from the G8:
G8 Urges Pakistan to Crack Down on Militants
MOSCOW (Reuters) - G8 foreign ministers called on Pakistan Friday to crack down on ``terrorists`` operating from its territory and expressed concern about rising India-Pakistan tension after a deadly attack on the New Delhi parliament.
In a statement released in Moscow ministers from the Group of Eight, comprising the world`s seven leading industrial states and Russia, said they ``firmly condemn terrorism in all its guises, including the attack on the Indian Parliament building.``
Noting Islamabad`s condemnation of the attack, the ministers said they ``urge Pakistan to take further measures against terrorist groups acting on its territory which target India in particular.``
They also urged Islamabad to arrest and bring to trial militants and cut off their finances…They also praised Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee`s statement that New Delhi wanted a diplomatic solution to its differences with Islamabad, and urged both sides not to escalate the situation.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011228/wl/india_pakistan_g8_dc_1.html
``...I am unable to comprehend what the current Indian actions aim to achieve...``
And there is even more evidence that everyone understands what India wants. Are you still in doubt? Read this statement from the G8:
G8 Urges Pakistan to Crack Down on Militants
MOSCOW (Reuters) - G8 foreign ministers called on Pakistan Friday to crack down on ``terrorists`` operating from its territory and expressed concern about rising India-Pakistan tension after a deadly attack on the New Delhi parliament.
In a statement released in Moscow ministers from the Group of Eight, comprising the world`s seven leading industrial states and Russia, said they ``firmly condemn terrorism in all its guises, including the attack on the Indian Parliament building.``
Noting Islamabad`s condemnation of the attack, the ministers said they ``urge Pakistan to take further measures against terrorist groups acting on its territory which target India in particular.``
They also urged Islamabad to arrest and bring to trial militants and cut off their finances…They also praised Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee`s statement that New Delhi wanted a diplomatic solution to its differences with Islamabad, and urged both sides not to escalate the situation.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011228/wl/india_pakistan_g8_dc_1.html
#189 Posted by Sadhna on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
Security beefed up in AJK amidst RAW threats
PANIWALA, December 27 (PNS): Security has been beefed up at all government
offices, public places and strategic installations in Azad Jammu and
Kashmir in wake of persistent threats emanating from New Delhi and
intelligence reports anticipating a terror onslaught by RAW.
http://www.paknews.org/kashmir.php?id=1&date1=2001-12-27
PANIWALA, December 27 (PNS): Security has been beefed up at all government
offices, public places and strategic installations in Azad Jammu and
Kashmir in wake of persistent threats emanating from New Delhi and
intelligence reports anticipating a terror onslaught by RAW.
http://www.paknews.org/kashmir.php?id=1&date1=2001-12-27
#188 Posted by Sadhna on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
India should abandon its superiority complex:Musharraf
KARACHI, December 27 (PNS): President General Pervez Musharraf has said
that Pakistan and India can resolve all lingering disputes through talks if
`` India gives up the superiority complex and treats Pakistan on equal
footing while maintaining that the country`s armed forces are fully
prepared and capable of defeating all challenges by the Grace of Almighty
Allah.
KARACHI, December 27 (PNS): President General Pervez Musharraf has said
that Pakistan and India can resolve all lingering disputes through talks if
`` India gives up the superiority complex and treats Pakistan on equal
footing while maintaining that the country`s armed forces are fully
prepared and capable of defeating all challenges by the Grace of Almighty
Allah.
#187 Posted by shammi on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
Re: Romair
``I am unable to comprehend what the current Indian actions aim to achieve...``
And more...By Ejaz Haider from The Friday Times:
``...The proxies Pakistan has been using have become totally discredited in the wake of September 11 attacks. The event has a vital significance for the strategic course the world will take in the years to come...The line between “terrorism” and “self-determination” has all but vanished and any activity that threatens to disturb the status quo is likely to be equated with terrorism...``
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/page7.htm
That is Ejaz`s polite way of telling the powers-that-be in Pakistan, to roll back the activities of the `discredited proxies`, and that the world no longer accepts `terrorism` in the cause of `self-determination`.
Najam Sethi, another writer of distinction from the same newspaper, has this advice for the General from Delhi:
``Pakistan’s old strategic doctrine of supporting proxy wars in India’s periphery, especially through an Islamic jehad in Kashmir, so that the conventional military balance is restored to more manageable proportions, is out of sync with recent realities. In particular, the post 9/11 world sees Islamic jehad as pure terrorism that must be stamped out everywhere...Unfortunately, Pakistan’s argument that India should provide “evidence” against the JM and LeT before action can be taken against them doesn’t cut ice with the international community which scarcely bothered with such niceties itself when it came to the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. But like their ill-fated counterparts in Afghanistan, the jehadis in Pakistan and Kashmir have proven to be their own worst propagandists, having proudly owned up to acts of militancy in Kashmir as well as publicly threatened to carry the jehad to the heart of India in Delhi. Therefore Pakistan’s condemnation of such acts as “terrorism” evokes the same contemptuous dismissal as its lack of adequate “leverage” over the Taliban before 9/11.``
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/front.htm
So, Romair, do you now understand what India (with the world`s backing) wants?
``I am unable to comprehend what the current Indian actions aim to achieve...``
And more...By Ejaz Haider from The Friday Times:
``...The proxies Pakistan has been using have become totally discredited in the wake of September 11 attacks. The event has a vital significance for the strategic course the world will take in the years to come...The line between “terrorism” and “self-determination” has all but vanished and any activity that threatens to disturb the status quo is likely to be equated with terrorism...``
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/page7.htm
That is Ejaz`s polite way of telling the powers-that-be in Pakistan, to roll back the activities of the `discredited proxies`, and that the world no longer accepts `terrorism` in the cause of `self-determination`.
Najam Sethi, another writer of distinction from the same newspaper, has this advice for the General from Delhi:
``Pakistan’s old strategic doctrine of supporting proxy wars in India’s periphery, especially through an Islamic jehad in Kashmir, so that the conventional military balance is restored to more manageable proportions, is out of sync with recent realities. In particular, the post 9/11 world sees Islamic jehad as pure terrorism that must be stamped out everywhere...Unfortunately, Pakistan’s argument that India should provide “evidence” against the JM and LeT before action can be taken against them doesn’t cut ice with the international community which scarcely bothered with such niceties itself when it came to the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. But like their ill-fated counterparts in Afghanistan, the jehadis in Pakistan and Kashmir have proven to be their own worst propagandists, having proudly owned up to acts of militancy in Kashmir as well as publicly threatened to carry the jehad to the heart of India in Delhi. Therefore Pakistan’s condemnation of such acts as “terrorism” evokes the same contemptuous dismissal as its lack of adequate “leverage” over the Taliban before 9/11.``
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/front.htm
So, Romair, do you now understand what India (with the world`s backing) wants?
#186 Posted by shammi on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
Re: Romair
``I am unable to comprehend what the current Indian actions aim to achieve...``
Wait there is more. The eminent Ayaz Amir has spoken:
``..National honour is not on the line. Only an aspect of national adventurism is being called into question. What sensible nations cannot sustain, they discard...We have been involved in occupied Kashmir for long. The world has come to know this in part because we blew our own disguise. Organizations like the Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mushammad had a free run of the entire country, holding rallies and easily collecting funds and recruits. India has not invented the substance of the charges against the Lashkar or Jaish...``
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm
Ayaz Amir has also said what I had said for long on Chowk:
``...we should have done some fast thinking and clamped down on the `jihadi` outfits ourselves without waiting for circumstances to catch up with us. But we let the moment pass and so, after Afghanistan, another turnaround is being forced on us...``
Musharraf would have been wise had he stopped an unsustainable policy on his own accord rather than have his hand forced by external events, much to his chagrin.
``I am unable to comprehend what the current Indian actions aim to achieve...``
Wait there is more. The eminent Ayaz Amir has spoken:
``..National honour is not on the line. Only an aspect of national adventurism is being called into question. What sensible nations cannot sustain, they discard...We have been involved in occupied Kashmir for long. The world has come to know this in part because we blew our own disguise. Organizations like the Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mushammad had a free run of the entire country, holding rallies and easily collecting funds and recruits. India has not invented the substance of the charges against the Lashkar or Jaish...``
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm
Ayaz Amir has also said what I had said for long on Chowk:
``...we should have done some fast thinking and clamped down on the `jihadi` outfits ourselves without waiting for circumstances to catch up with us. But we let the moment pass and so, after Afghanistan, another turnaround is being forced on us...``
Musharraf would have been wise had he stopped an unsustainable policy on his own accord rather than have his hand forced by external events, much to his chagrin.
#185 Posted by shammi on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
Re: Romair
``...I am unable to comprehend what the current Indian actions aim to achieve...``
There are several Pakistanis on Chowk (Fuzair, Ferozk, Tahmed321, YLH) who have written frequently on the need to rein in Islamist jehadi groups in Pakistan who are bent upon exporting their terror to India. There are also a large number of Pakistanis who write frequently in Pakistani newspapers and who comprehend what needs to be done very well (sample writings reproduced below). So, let me ask again, `Do you have trouble comprehending plain English?`:
QUOTE
``…Pakistan has promised to take action against Jihadi outfits but India should give it time because any immediate clampdown merely drives terrorists underground. However, Pakistan should take such action that Jihadi elements should not be able to take militant action across the line of control. If the agencies of the state are still supporting such action, then after Sept 11 they should be persuaded not to do so. Such policy was always suicidal, as I have said several times before, but now it is courting annihilation….`` Dr Tariq Rahman in The News
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/dec2001-daily/28-12-2001/oped/o1.htm
``…This is not to suggest that Pakistan has played no role in terror on Indian soil. Unfortunately, it has…Pakistan ought to dismantle training camps for militants and deny extremist groups access to funds and weaponry... In this context, it may also be necessary to completely restructure the ISI…Meanwhile, it simply would not do to allow militants on both sides of the border the satisfaction of fomenting another subcontinental conflagration``. Mahir Ali in The Dawn
http://www.dawn.com/2001/12/28/op.htm#3
END QUOTE
``...I am unable to comprehend what the current Indian actions aim to achieve...``
There are several Pakistanis on Chowk (Fuzair, Ferozk, Tahmed321, YLH) who have written frequently on the need to rein in Islamist jehadi groups in Pakistan who are bent upon exporting their terror to India. There are also a large number of Pakistanis who write frequently in Pakistani newspapers and who comprehend what needs to be done very well (sample writings reproduced below). So, let me ask again, `Do you have trouble comprehending plain English?`:
QUOTE
``…Pakistan has promised to take action against Jihadi outfits but India should give it time because any immediate clampdown merely drives terrorists underground. However, Pakistan should take such action that Jihadi elements should not be able to take militant action across the line of control. If the agencies of the state are still supporting such action, then after Sept 11 they should be persuaded not to do so. Such policy was always suicidal, as I have said several times before, but now it is courting annihilation….`` Dr Tariq Rahman in The News
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/dec2001-daily/28-12-2001/oped/o1.htm
``…This is not to suggest that Pakistan has played no role in terror on Indian soil. Unfortunately, it has…Pakistan ought to dismantle training camps for militants and deny extremist groups access to funds and weaponry... In this context, it may also be necessary to completely restructure the ISI…Meanwhile, it simply would not do to allow militants on both sides of the border the satisfaction of fomenting another subcontinental conflagration``. Mahir Ali in The Dawn
http://www.dawn.com/2001/12/28/op.htm#3
END QUOTE
#184 Posted by shammi on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
``…I am unable to comprehend what the current Indian actions aim to achieve...``
Do you not understand plain English? Pakistan should cease and desist from sending the likes of LeT and JeM from bombing, shooting, killing, maiming in India.
``… There is absolutely no historical example of a nuclear armed country losing a war…``
Replace the word `losing` with `being destroyed`, and then see if it still makes sense
``…Pakistan gets fed-up with all the Indian rhetoric, and launches a nuke today. What happens next? India launches a few…``
Nope. India will not launch a few - India will launch ALL it has got.
``…Pakistan is now under the most sane leadership I have seen in my lifetime…``
Sane enough to allow groups that his own foreign minister agrees are in violation of the (suspended) Pakistani Constitution that states that private armies (a la JeM and LeT) are illegal and unconstitutional? Sane enough to be absolutely lackadaisical and apathetic when the US declares the same to be `foreign terrorist organizations`, and the UK Foreign secretary asked Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf `to stop Jaish-e-Mohammed and Lashkar-e-Tayiba saying these terrorist groups have no place in a modern society`.
``…And remember, we did rule over you guys for one thousand years …``
Still obsessed by `you` and `us`, and religion-only derived identities? Indians, not Pakistanis, despite what your history textbooks may teach you, ruled India.
``…Pakistan has a lot of complains against you guys also (one of them being the fact that you split our country in two parts…``
That is a 180-degree turnaround from your earlier position that Bangladesh was created by Pakistan`s own immoral and unethical handling of the Bengali demands
Do you not understand plain English? Pakistan should cease and desist from sending the likes of LeT and JeM from bombing, shooting, killing, maiming in India.
``… There is absolutely no historical example of a nuclear armed country losing a war…``
Replace the word `losing` with `being destroyed`, and then see if it still makes sense
``…Pakistan gets fed-up with all the Indian rhetoric, and launches a nuke today. What happens next? India launches a few…``
Nope. India will not launch a few - India will launch ALL it has got.
``…Pakistan is now under the most sane leadership I have seen in my lifetime…``
Sane enough to allow groups that his own foreign minister agrees are in violation of the (suspended) Pakistani Constitution that states that private armies (a la JeM and LeT) are illegal and unconstitutional? Sane enough to be absolutely lackadaisical and apathetic when the US declares the same to be `foreign terrorist organizations`, and the UK Foreign secretary asked Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf `to stop Jaish-e-Mohammed and Lashkar-e-Tayiba saying these terrorist groups have no place in a modern society`.
``…And remember, we did rule over you guys for one thousand years …``
Still obsessed by `you` and `us`, and religion-only derived identities? Indians, not Pakistanis, despite what your history textbooks may teach you, ruled India.
``…Pakistan has a lot of complains against you guys also (one of them being the fact that you split our country in two parts…``
That is a 180-degree turnaround from your earlier position that Bangladesh was created by Pakistan`s own immoral and unethical handling of the Bengali demands
#183 Posted by shankar on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
Whats wrong with us Indians? Has our anger driven us INSANE?! Even rational, educated people are now talking about total war! What kind of INSANE logic am I hearing from Indian Chowkies, that India will survive a nuclear war; but Pakistan will be completely destroyed?! Listen folks--if there is nuclear war in S.Asia, the survivors will ENVY the ones who have been vaporised!!!
Even after a nuclear war, it wont stop us from blaming the wasteland Pakistan for starting all this. Like thats going to justify the REAL nightmare to follow! Those survivors are then going to wage ANOTHER war--with whoever is left behind on the other side. The big difference is that this war will be fought by throwing sticks & stones at each other.
I called up my dad last night. My aging parents & one brother (his wife & son) are the only immediate relatives that are left behind in India. Not counting cousins & friends.
After hanging up the phone I had tears in my eyes. My father, an eternal pacifist, said that in 76 years of his life he has never seen such hysteria among people. He feels its all in the hands of God now. Things have gone way beyond ``who`s fault it is?``. The prevailing sentiment is ``enough is enough``.
I implored him & my brother to bring their families to the US. But they responded with typical Indian fatalism--what will be, will be; ``we will live & die in this country``. While I applaud their patriotism, I hate their stubbornness.
Somebody PLEASE tell me I`m being too pessimisstic! When I said that to my dad, he said ``well, I dont think there will be war; I dont think God will let that happen despite the fact we have hurt Him again & again by using religion to hate each other``.
Even if war is averted this time, India & Pakistan are just buying time. The fundo hawks in both countries want a showdown. That showdown IS going to come--today, tomorrow or 10 years from today. I think its definitely going to come in our lifetimes.
When that happens I will grieve for my family & friends, who I HOPE will be vaporised (because surviving it will be an even worse fate).
Heck! I`ll even grieve for Harimou`s & Urstruly`s families!
FU *CK--``WHO IS AT FAULT!!``
Even after a nuclear war, it wont stop us from blaming the wasteland Pakistan for starting all this. Like thats going to justify the REAL nightmare to follow! Those survivors are then going to wage ANOTHER war--with whoever is left behind on the other side. The big difference is that this war will be fought by throwing sticks & stones at each other.
I called up my dad last night. My aging parents & one brother (his wife & son) are the only immediate relatives that are left behind in India. Not counting cousins & friends.
After hanging up the phone I had tears in my eyes. My father, an eternal pacifist, said that in 76 years of his life he has never seen such hysteria among people. He feels its all in the hands of God now. Things have gone way beyond ``who`s fault it is?``. The prevailing sentiment is ``enough is enough``.
I implored him & my brother to bring their families to the US. But they responded with typical Indian fatalism--what will be, will be; ``we will live & die in this country``. While I applaud their patriotism, I hate their stubbornness.
Somebody PLEASE tell me I`m being too pessimisstic! When I said that to my dad, he said ``well, I dont think there will be war; I dont think God will let that happen despite the fact we have hurt Him again & again by using religion to hate each other``.
Even if war is averted this time, India & Pakistan are just buying time. The fundo hawks in both countries want a showdown. That showdown IS going to come--today, tomorrow or 10 years from today. I think its definitely going to come in our lifetimes.
When that happens I will grieve for my family & friends, who I HOPE will be vaporised (because surviving it will be an even worse fate).
Heck! I`ll even grieve for Harimou`s & Urstruly`s families!
FU *CK--``WHO IS AT FAULT!!``
#181 Posted by jay on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
NOBEL MAULANA,
Another year, time for the pakistanis to talk about another peace prize for Maulana Edhi for his work in pakistan. pakistan is a country that greatly honours people who have achieved world acclaim, like abdus salam. Well he was an ahmadi, but all of the pakistanis would like Edhi to have a nobel prize, he is the correct type of pakistani, the maulana variety.
The pinnacle of scientific achievent is nothing because of a few words in an archiac book, and that is for the educated of pakistan.
YLH, have you read the latest from Ayesha Jalal, `the senile spokesman`.
Another year, time for the pakistanis to talk about another peace prize for Maulana Edhi for his work in pakistan. pakistan is a country that greatly honours people who have achieved world acclaim, like abdus salam. Well he was an ahmadi, but all of the pakistanis would like Edhi to have a nobel prize, he is the correct type of pakistani, the maulana variety.
The pinnacle of scientific achievent is nothing because of a few words in an archiac book, and that is for the educated of pakistan.
YLH, have you read the latest from Ayesha Jalal, `the senile spokesman`.
#179 Posted by babu on December 29, 2001 2:37:36 pm
Romair 73:
Spare me the crap that India split Pakistan into 2 parts. It is not like the Bangladeshis are queueing up to join Pakistan. It is high time Punjabi elite in Pakistan looked up in the mirror.
Spare me the crap that India split Pakistan into 2 parts. It is not like the Bangladeshis are queueing up to join Pakistan. It is high time Punjabi elite in Pakistan looked up in the mirror.
#178 Posted by Urstruly on December 28, 2001 3:14:13 pm
PROPHETS, GODS & MAO ZEDONGS
It is interesting to see that as the ruling Hindu religious nuts started threatening Pakistan, Gen Musharaf ran towards China instead of asking US to help get rid of this monkey (Hindus) off his shoulders. This is a clear indication where military government in Pakistan stands viz a viz US and its own people.
Those who know the psyche of the people of this region have no doubt that Hinduland is actually being instigated by US to rattle its sabers wrt Pakistan so that the Chinese response could be gauged. And in order to understand why, one must understand the inter-relationship of three big players in the region-China, India, Pak. At this time Americans desperately want to start an arms race between China and India where India is more than willing to play US patsy. On the other hand US would definitely not want India to become another economic or military power at par with China because then it will have to deal with two superpowers instead of one. In order to do that US will keep the Kashmir issue burning so that Kashmir keeps on acting as a drain on India’s economic strength-in order to achieve this goal of maintaining the status quo in Kashmir, the United States has “allowed” Pakistan to become nuclear. On the other hand China will always want to maintain the status quo in Kashmir as well for the said reasons. It will keep on “helping” Pakistan to maintain status quo.
In this scenario all pointers indicate towards Hindus as a loser nation. First of all they are prolonging their own misery by keep on fighting a battle (Kashmir) that they have already lost. Second, they have subtracted the human factor of Kashmiris from their equation altogether. Hindus must think and think hard that whether the propaganda that Kashmiri Freedom Fighters are murdering their own Kashmiri countrymen can convince Kashmiris or is it just to convince the non Kashmiri Hindu population of India who are willing to play ignorant?
Both Hindus and Pakistanis leaders project a view that Gora Sahib is Ullo ka Patha-and just by embellishing their pep talks with their nations using big words like vote, election, democracy, and terrorists they can fool Gora Sahib. Lets not forget that less than 50,000 gora sahib has ruled this subcontinent of 600 million cows and goats for 200 years. They know us inside and out.
The toughest challenge that all gods, prophets, and Mao Zedongs of all times have ever faced is to free their nations from the mental slavery and not the physical slavery. A Muslim in Pakistan knows the difference because that is in his psyche-the Hindu on the other hand know no other way but mental or physical slavery or a combination of both.
If not a natural disaster a nuclear holocaust is necessary at this time according to both Malthus and Dr. Senn, in order to preserve humanity in this region.
It is interesting to see that as the ruling Hindu religious nuts started threatening Pakistan, Gen Musharaf ran towards China instead of asking US to help get rid of this monkey (Hindus) off his shoulders. This is a clear indication where military government in Pakistan stands viz a viz US and its own people.
Those who know the psyche of the people of this region have no doubt that Hinduland is actually being instigated by US to rattle its sabers wrt Pakistan so that the Chinese response could be gauged. And in order to understand why, one must understand the inter-relationship of three big players in the region-China, India, Pak. At this time Americans desperately want to start an arms race between China and India where India is more than willing to play US patsy. On the other hand US would definitely not want India to become another economic or military power at par with China because then it will have to deal with two superpowers instead of one. In order to do that US will keep the Kashmir issue burning so that Kashmir keeps on acting as a drain on India’s economic strength-in order to achieve this goal of maintaining the status quo in Kashmir, the United States has “allowed” Pakistan to become nuclear. On the other hand China will always want to maintain the status quo in Kashmir as well for the said reasons. It will keep on “helping” Pakistan to maintain status quo.
In this scenario all pointers indicate towards Hindus as a loser nation. First of all they are prolonging their own misery by keep on fighting a battle (Kashmir) that they have already lost. Second, they have subtracted the human factor of Kashmiris from their equation altogether. Hindus must think and think hard that whether the propaganda that Kashmiri Freedom Fighters are murdering their own Kashmiri countrymen can convince Kashmiris or is it just to convince the non Kashmiri Hindu population of India who are willing to play ignorant?
Both Hindus and Pakistanis leaders project a view that Gora Sahib is Ullo ka Patha-and just by embellishing their pep talks with their nations using big words like vote, election, democracy, and terrorists they can fool Gora Sahib. Lets not forget that less than 50,000 gora sahib has ruled this subcontinent of 600 million cows and goats for 200 years. They know us inside and out.
The toughest challenge that all gods, prophets, and Mao Zedongs of all times have ever faced is to free their nations from the mental slavery and not the physical slavery. A Muslim in Pakistan knows the difference because that is in his psyche-the Hindu on the other hand know no other way but mental or physical slavery or a combination of both.
If not a natural disaster a nuclear holocaust is necessary at this time according to both Malthus and Dr. Senn, in order to preserve humanity in this region.
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