Running Naked

re: ali born to cousin at heera mandi

untested hypothesis? dude, go ask your grandpop`s generation from 1971 (at least the 90,000 of them who surrendered to india) about that.

Re: Romair

``...For example, India continues to ... banning...media...``

Last I heard, Indian TV channels have been banned throughout Pakistan. PTV is still being shown in India. So, are you suggesting that in order to figure out who was behind the Parliament bombing, India and Pakistan should first begin by `unbanning` the media?

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...India now has Musharraf where she wants it; he may like it or not but he has no choice but to crack down on these jehadis or face America`s wrath, not to speak of a war that he doesn`t want...``

What if Musharraf decides to ignore both America and India? Are you certain that he will crack down on the Let/JeM? But, if as you say, he will -- then I agree with you -- India should give him room, and avoid war. If diplomacy succeeds, then wisdom lies in utilizing it. I just read on Dawn, that Musharraf is sending political feelers to BB in Dubai. I don`t want to be overly critical of a man who is now on the hot spot, but one does feel that he should not have broken all bridges with the political opposition in Pakistan. He probably needs her and her party now to come out in opposition of the militant groups, so that he can crack down on them. Perhaps, the Americans are leaning on him.

Re: Tahmed321

``...South Asians may end up learning the hard way how terrible it is...``

I had once mentioned to you that India/Pakistan will have to go through the horrors of WWI and WW2 (just like France and Germany) before better sense prevails (we sort of did go through this in the Partition, but apparently that shock was not enough). Today, France and Germany (having killed over 20 million+ of each other`s countrymen in the 20th century alone) are on their way to a civilized European Union. Alsace and Lorraine were as divisive once as Kashmir is today. But, they would not have reached where they are today without the monstrosities of the two wars, and without Pax Americana. Your prescription (Option A) is reasonable, but what if Musharraf pays no heed? What is India and the international community to do?

Re: Romair

``...It seems like Vajpayee has now lost power amongst the senior ranks of BJP...``

Rather than waste time and speculate on his political viability for which there is a (yet undemolished) Parliament in which the entire Opposition has backed Vajpayee to the hilt, and election cycles, I would worry more about the role of the JeM, LeT and the ISI in all this. Musharraf may not have know about the attack on the Parliament, but he cannot absolve himself of his responsibility. This is not a matter of political debate anymore -- it is a criminal act. The State Dept. designation of LeT/JeM and FTOs is about as equivocal as it can be. The world is not going to accept any violence for political ends anymore. Sept. 11 changed all that. And neither will India. Your attempts to link criminal acts with political causes is not going to be received well in Western capitals.

Re: Anarayan

``...How come you know all these choti-moti gullies in Delhi...``

Years of living in Delhi, and travelling by every conceivable mode of transport. Also, an abiding curiosity in the history of that wonderful city. Did you know that Rajpath used to be called Kings Way, and Janpath Queens Way? That Kingsway Camp was the location of the tent city built to house the native Indian Kings and Princes for the Delhi Durbar of 1911?

Things that mystify:
1. Pakistani government official going on world television threatening a nuclear attack to wipe out hundreds of thousands of ordinary Indians, simply to avoid taking comprehensive action against Pakistani religious extremists, which is all that India is demanding.

2. Pakistani government complaining to the world about Indian war mongering even though it was the Indian Parliament which was attacked by Pakistanis.

Which idiot Pakistani planner thinks all this makes good sense for the Pakistani people ?

And which country thinks it solves any problems to twiddle its thumbs and hum a tune after an attack on its Parliament by foreign nationals?

As far as Indians go, either the Parliament attack was engineered by rogue organizations and groups in Pakistan, which means the Pakistani government was AGAINST such an attack, in which case insisting on action against these rogue elements makes sense (as India has been doing for many months). The alternative is strengthening these groups through inaction both in India and Pakistan, as happened after previous attacks including the IC-814 hijacking. Do we really need more such attacks?

Or the Parliament attack was engineered by those with considerable influence in the Pakistani government, which means there is enough support within the Pakistani government for destroying the Indian government. Which makes the attack an act of war and why wait for more such attacks?

The choice of which it is with the Pakistani government. Similar choices have confronted them earlier too. I wish for example, Dawood Ibrahim hadnot left Pakistan for a week during the Agra Summit while Musharraf was gaving his personal word that Dawood was not in Pakistan. Things would have been vastly different if Musharraf had cultivated a little personal credibility, Dawood`s connections in India are surely not indispensable or worth the loss of personal credibility to Musharraf.

I agree though, ordinary Pakistanis and Indians suffer even when war is only threatened, but why would doing nothing improve the situation?

Reply # 195 RSaxena

[re: ali the eunuch

and then india can recreate another proud tradition....]

RSaxena, now don`t get jealous. I can accept you as my personal cleanser in case of Indus water drying up.

Reply # 188 RSaxena devdasi ke

[``If you had a full war between India and Pakistan, not just skirmishes on the border ... India would start winning,`` said former US ambasador Dennis Kux, who has served in both India and Pakistan. And at a certain point Pakistan, rather than going under, would push the button,`` he said, appearing on CNN`s ``The Capital Gang`` show]

Stephen Cohen appearing on Talk of the Nation on NPR said that India`s conventional superiority over Pakistan is at best an untested hypothesis.

Dude, if you and other Indians are so sure of a conventional victory, why dont you ask your baap bagpipe to start the war?

re: scout

{even if an Indian spokesperson had two fingers up his nose, you`d call him `eloquent and effective.`

such is the blind Indian nationalism your countrymen and yourself engage in.}

did you see him do that? on what channel? come on scout aunty, the holidays aren`t over...be nice (note, i`ve said nothing nasty to you in weeks)

..... based on an informal survey of people in pakistan, it seems nobody is spoiling for a fight but everyone is convinced that india will push it over the brink and that pakistan will have to push the button .....contrary to what urstruly`s relatives are doing, no one is digging trenches - maybe because they are smarter and understand that trenches do not provide protection against radiation ...... my informal survey included three serving senior officers in the army and airforce, one retired general, a latter-day hippy who regularly organizes marches to save the shisham tree, two business men who have dedicated their lives to making money and a number of women who are convinced that testosterone is to blame ( although looking at vijpayee and advani it is hard to imagine they ever had any ) .........

........ anyway, everyone seems to be convinced that war is inevitable and is upset at me out for not having produced a male offspring to carry on the family name in the land of the free after the last male m is incinerated in the motherland ...... now that is a heavy burden to carry ......imagine a world without m`s and dots ........

dear expaks...... this is good time to buy shares on kse. YOU help yourself buying good pak stocks and PAKISTAN also.

So expaks help pak by buying shares. Good for everybody ok

Just heard the Indian law minister on CNN. He made one statement which I found interesting, i.e.:

Pakistan has killed 61,000 Indian civilians in Kashmir, through cross-border terrorism.

Many Indians had stated, on this site, that the death figures of Kashmiris given by Pakistanis, Kashmiris, BBC etc. were exagerated. Meaning that the number of deaths in Kashmir was actually not that high. I had stated, two years ago, the figure was between 33,000 (as reported by BBC) and 70,000 as reported by the Kashmiris.

It is good to see that India has finally accepted the fact that 61,000 civilians have been killed in Kashmir. I hope no Indian will doubt this fact any longer.

Now it is only a question of establishing who has killed these civilians. Is it the 500,000 to 700,000 Indian military in Kashmir (the highest no of soldiers per sq. ft anywhere in the world; 1 soldier for ever 6 to 9 Kashmiri civlians), or is it the Pakistanis who cross the LOC to assist the Kashmiri freedom movement. The easy way to find this out would be to allow international human rights organizations access to IOK, just like they have access to POK. But that is too violent a solution, according to our Indian colleagues.

So lets take a different approach. 61,000 is more than all the Indians that have been killed by Pakistani Army in all the wars combined. How exactly could a few Pakistani (lets say a few hundred at most) cross into Kashmir and kill 61,000 civilians; specially if those civilians had the protection of 500,000 plus Indian soldiers. If this were the case, wouldn`t the APHC condemn Pakistan, instead of supporting it. If Indians crossed into Lahore and killed 61,000 Lahori civilians, would the Lahoris condemn India or would they support India?

If the Indian law minister`s statement is correct, then I think he should immediately call for a plebescite in IOK. The Kashmiris after having seen 61,000 of their civilian colleagues (actually my colleagues also, since my family hails from Srinigar; my parents generation all being born there) killed by the Pakistan govt. sponsored terrorists, would without a doubt, vote to not only join India, but to destroy Pakistan. If the BJP sitting in Delhi can hate Pakistan so much as to declare war, for killing 61,000 Kashmiris, one would think the Kashmiris themselves would hate Pakistan even more.

India would thus easily win the plebescite. Kashmir would no longer be disputed territory. And Pakistan would have egg on its face. And the Kashmiris would be happy. Now why in the world doesn`t India do so, when it can openly come on CNN and state that Pakistanis have killed 61,000 of its Kashmiris?

P.S. It is one thing to kill tens of thousands of Kashmiris. It is even more sad to see the Indian govt., after killing these civilians, use their deaths to justify an attack against Pakistan. Is it still a surprise to the Indians, that Kashmiris want independence?

cemendtaur #187: Its good to see you back.

I have been suggesting what you suggested in your reply for ages. But apparently, our Indian contributors, on this site, consider such suggestions too violent. A more peaceful approach is to continue to call Pakistan a terrorist nation, not provide any proof, and then attack Pakistan. What happens after that, is of course, not important at all, because India will just run over Pakistan. Perhaps many of the Indians` views are hardened by Pakistani cynics on this site, whose hatred for anything religious (extremist or non-extremist) and anything to do with the Army (good or bad) is so intense, that they would readily welcome Indian forces into Pakistan. However, Indians need to realize that such a group is an extremely small minority in Pakistan. They are like the people who live in America, yet want it destroyed, because they hate Clinton or the Christian Coalition. These Pakistani groups do however indicate that Pakistanis are looking at all aspects of Pakistan`s policies, which is a healthy sign.

India needs to take the following steps, if it is convinced they are right, and it will have Pakistan cornered in no time:

1) Establish what is actually going in Kashmir: (it should do this by allowing internationally recognized human rights organizations complete access to its portion of Kashmir. Let them talk to the people, etc. and then submit a detailed report of how the Pakistanis are torchering the local Indian Kashmiri population). This will end the game of he said, she said, and we will have a clear picture of whose description is right or wrong.

2) Allow the whole world to see what Pakistan is doing in IOK (it should do this by, lifting the ban, and opening up Kashmir completely to the international media. Just like the US opened up ground zero to the world media. If the US had not shown a single picture of the WTC, would anyone have believed its statements?). The international media will then give a balanced view of the whole situation.

3) Take all its complains against Pakistan to the UN (it should do this by creating a case against Pakistan, under the UN resolutions on terrorism, which both India and Pakistan supported. The whole world will then be behind India`s efforts to solve its problems). This case should include the current attacks on the Indian parliament.

4) The UN will then take the standard action, for which it is designed (it will do this by creating new resolutions or ask for the implementation of resolutions between India and Pakistan. It will pass on all the legal cases to the ICJ).

5) The ICJ will take a decision on the current attacks on the Indian parliament (these were terrorist acts, but so far only India knows who carried them out, and it is not letting out the evidence)

6) Pakistan (and India) should then accept the decisions by the UN and ICJ peacefully. Pakistan will not be able to ignore these decisions, like India has been ignoring them for fifty years.

This is the peaceful solution which I have been proposing, and which most Indians on this site seem to hate, for some reason. India needs to get out of its tendency of blaming Pakistan, not justifying its blame, and attempting to pressurise the world (and now Pakistan) into acceptance. For example, India continues to blame everything in Kashmir on Pakistan, yet it is unwilling to justify its claims there by holding a plebescite or by banning international organizations and media. It states Pakistan is involved in the attack on the Indian parliament, yet it is unwilling to justify it by providing proof, or taking the matter to the ICJ. It will not accept Pakistan`s word at face value, yet it wants Pakistan to accept India`s word at face value, otherwise it will go to war. This is illogical, illegal and dangerous.

hamidm #177 I am glad someone appreciates the thought of handing over LeT/JeM to India to stand trial as common criminals. This way all the nutcases in the subcontinent would be in India (either behind bars, in case of the aforementioned exports from Pakistan, or outside bars, as in case of their own saffron colored nuts), and Pakistanis can focus on improving their economy, NABbing corrupt officials (no better sight than ex-generals and admirals pleading to be allowed to hand back their ill-gotten wealth), improving their cricket skills.

You suggest we hand over Samiul Haq and Fazlurrahman to the US al-Qaeda members. Good idea - the food being given in prison to these two fat goats could then be enough to feed a dozen hungry street kids in Pakistan.

Here`s another thought: Eliminate once and for all the ideological basis on which these people have tried to take over Pakistan society. This is done by separating state and religion. - This separation of state and religion is fully consistent with the basic message of the Quran which has been conveniently replaced by these power seekers with the self-serving message of Maudoodi that dragged religion into politics to begin with.

suxena #189,

even if an Indian spokesperson had two fingers up his nose, you`d call him `eloquent and effective.`

such is the blind Indian nationalism your countrymen and yourself engage in.

jaya aunty #186,

relax, get a jar of tucks

re: ali the eunuch

and then india can recreate another proud tradition of splitting muslim countries in half a-la-1971 and having 90,000 pukistani soldiers surrender

Ref #: 168

[Accusing Joseph Arokiaraj of being a man, when you have used names like Deepika!]

I meant to say:

Accusing Joseph Arokiaraj of being woman pretending to be a man, when you have used names like Deepika!

I didn`t have my first cup of cofee!