Running Naked

Ref eunuch1 #: 169

[Like the proverbial prostitute who cried rape to get back at her paramour, India`s whole siyapa is about getting the world to pressurize Pakistan and extracting some concessions on Kashmir.]

Well, let us see what Pakistan has been saying.

``We have the nukes; please twist our arms so that we don`t use them against India.``

``We have the nukes; please give us billions to fix our economy so that the nukes don`t fall into the wrong hands.``

``We have the nukes and India cannot start a conventional war against us because we will nuke them and we will accept annihilation of Pakistan so long as we take a couple of hundred heeng-eating hated Hindoos with us, but please, please restrain us.``

The only prostitute in the region has been Pakistan, selling herself to the US, China, the US and now after Mushy`s last week`s visit to Beijing, again to China. Or, was there a formal nikkah each time followed by an Islamic divorce so these represent serial monogamy and not just pickups at a atreet corner?

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Joeseph Arokiaraj # 48

YOU SOW WHAT YOU REAP

Is it the other way around?

Regards

Brian Cloughley has at least as much knowledge on the Indian and Pakistani military and Kashmir, as anyone. He has authored a book on the Pakistani Army. He was hired by the Indian govt. as a consultant, on India`s $1 billion purchase of the British Hawk jet. He was stationed in Kashmir as a UN rep, and knows the Indian and Pakistani Generals personally. Most importantly, he is neither an Indian nor a Pakistani. Needless to say, his views should be taken with seriousness.

``.....On Sunday The Hindustan Times carried an interview with Home Minister LK Advani in which he said “[Party members] have not asked for war but hot pursuit. What is wrong with that? It is legitimate under international law.” There are considerable doubts as to its legality, because the term is not recognised in international or any other law than that of force majeure (with which the world is becoming increasingly familiar), but this is not the point. If Mr Advani really thinks crossing the LoC by Indian soldiers is not war, then he could be accused of naiveté. But we all know Mr Advani is not naïve: far from it......

Formations on the flanks of the main area of hostilities will inevitably be drawn in, and this is where escalation will begin. Mr Advani’s ‘hot pursuit’ over the LoC would rapidly become a hot war across his own border. Then watch the hawks take to the cellars as India’s unmodified, creaky T-72 tanks and antique T-55s and Vijayantas grind to a halt before even firing a shot. Indian armour is in a parlous state because of monstrous inefficiency and widespread corruption in the Ministry of Defence and its ancillary organisations.

The last and barmiest scenario is use of surface-to-surface missiles. It is not important that they probably won’t work (nothing that has been touched by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation has actually worked: not a rifle, not a gun, not a radar; and the less said about the mega-crore disasters of the Arjun tank and the light helicopter the better).....

The Times of India may be floating a trial balloon for the Indian army, and the New Delhi hawks may be flying kites to gauge how much US support may be given in the event of war, but it seems Mr Advani wants military action against ‘the enemy’ as India’s official spokesman so forthrightly calls Pakistan. It is difficult to believe that senior officers of India’s army are serious about invading Pakistan-administered Kashmir, or crossing the border, as their equipment is so defective......

The hawks are soaring in India, but if they think capture of Pakistan-administered Kashmir is achievable, they are mistaken. Military analysts around the world know the Kargil War was a debacle for India, no matter the spin put on that episode by many (but by no means all) Indian analysts and commentators. The state of India’s defence forces is abysmal. The officers and men are extremely high quality, but equipment, ammunition and logistics are poor to the point of government criminality. Mr Advani and the rest of the ‘hot pursuit’ advocates had better have a look at reality, and it would be a good thing if General Nanavatty and the air force jingoists were to do the same, and then advise the government in New Delhi to cool the rhetoric.`` (http://www.syberwurx.com/nation/daily/today/editor/opi5.htm)

It is very easy for Indians and Pakistanis to discard each other writers. However, I don`t think it is a good idea to discard experts like Cloughley. India is highly mistaken if it thinks it can walk into Pakistan, as and when it wishes. It is extremely difficult to fight an offensive war. Pakistan is now more secure against India than it has ever been in its history. Primarily due to a nuclear deterent, but due to factors described above by Cloughley also. Pakistan also has an order of magnitude better leadership at the helm than in 71 (or 65). And Pakistan, as a country is more united now than in 71.

Any country whose military takes the first step across the border, or even LOC, will lose international support, in no time. So far, India is the only country with such intentions. Hopefully, the BJP is bluffing. If not, than I hope they are reading Cloughley`s work. They did hire him for a billion dollar deal.

There is an interesting article on tehelka.com, regarding Vajpayee. It states the following:

``Vajpayee lets the mask slip

He threw caution to wind, declared himself a RSS man, called Ayodhya temple issue a matter of national sentiment, and justified the need to change history textbooks, says Venkat Parsa

New Delhi, December 28

Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee, who had been zealously trying to remain non-committal to retain his wider liberal appeal, appears to have finally been forced to stand up and be counted upon. So many issues had cropped up recently that finally he was forced to shed his studied ambivalence and take a stand on contentious issues. One by one, masks kept dropping, bringing to the fore the real face of Vajpayee.`` (http://www.tehelka.com/channels/currentaffairs/2001/dec/28/ca122801vaj.htm)

The recent actions by India do not fall in line with the thinking of most Indians I have met, and not in line with previous actions of Vajpayee. Anyone logical person has to accept the fact that no country can unilaterally ask another to take some action, without proof, just by threatening war. Suppose Pakistan were to demand the same of India, would India agree. I doubt it.

The only sane solution is for India to take its complains to the UN and ICJ, and for Pakistan to take actions under the decisions handed out by these two bodies. To do anything just because India threatens war will set into motion a chain of events, under which India will always threaten war against Pakistan, to achieve its aims.

It seems like Vajpayee has now lost power amongst the senior ranks of BJP. The BJP`s agenda, as presented at www.bjp.org is as extremist as any of Pakistan`s religious extremist parties. It is more extremist than that of the Jamaat-i-Islami. I would place it somewhere in between the philosophy of Sipah-e-Sahaba and Jamiat-e-Ulema Islam in Pakistan. However, so far the BJP has not been able to implement its agenda, because it has been in a coalation with other parties, and more importantly because Vajpayee had been somewhat of a moderate.

However, as the tehelka article indicates, the BJP`s recent defeats have now neutralized Vajpayee. He seems to be risking losing his diehard BJP followers also, if he remains a moderate. This seems to have forced him to accept the BJP agenda completely, as described by the article. The very first line on the BJP website is, ``Bharatiya Janata Party is today the most prominent member of the family of organisations known as the ``Sangh Parivar``.``

What is happening now is infact an emergence of the so far subdued leadership of BJP, under Advani. While the Indians have been very critical of religious extremism in Pakistan (in many cases correctly), they need to be equally critical of religious extremism in India.

I never thought anyone in India or Pakistan would be stupid enough to move complete forces on the Indian-Pakistani border, after the nuclear explosions. I have thus been surprised by this decision of the BJP. Now I would like to think, no one would ever be stupid enough to attack across the Sind-Punjab border. I hope I am at least right about the second part. If the BJP-led India does attack across this border, I cannot see how anyone can place the blame on anyone else accept India for the nuclear war that may occur (if there is someone alive by then).

All Pakistan should do is move its forces to defensive positions on the borders, as long as India is there. It should not make any offensive statements (which luckily it hasn`t done).

Pakistani apologists need to realize that the only legitimate solutions to Indo-Pak conflicts should be through legally recognized international organizations. The more the UN etc. are sidelined in these conflicts, the more the chances of the conflicts will increase. If the non-religious groups in Pakistan continue to call for the heads of the religious, without proof and a trial, then how can you blame the religious groups in Pakistan calling for the heads of the non-religious, without a trial. People should not be lynched, killed, handed over to India (without a trial by an international court) just because they are too religious, or not religious enough. The other way to do it is for India and Pakistan to sign a extradition treaty where any Pakistani found guilty by India (without providing proof to international courts) is handed over, and any Indian found guilty in Pakistan (without providing proof to international courts) will be handed over, also. Is India willing to sign such a treaty?

I believe it was JFK who stated, ``So let us begin anew. . .remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate.``

As a Pakistani, I hope the day is never reached where Pakistan has to negotiate out of fear with a threatening India. And I hope Pakistan always agrees to negotiate with India. And I hope every Pakistani, regardless of how much I may hate him for his lack or excess of religious beliefs, is always given a fair trial, if not in Pakistan then in an international court, before being handed over to anyone.

scout #144 The starving people of both countries have already suffered as money has been diverted to guns. Musharaff should see this as an opportunity to get rid of the mullahs (while at the same time making sure that the Advanis across the border realize that Pakistan is prepared to use every means it has if necessary to defend itself).

shammi #160 The reason I was suggesting LeT types be handed over to India was since (very cleverly) this way Pakistan would kill two birds with one stone: i.e. avoid war on the one hand, and get rid of these troublemakers on the other hand. In any case, God only knows what happens if there is war - there has never been a nuclear war fought between two countries, and I fear (like all fools) South Asians may end up learning the hard way how terrible it is. This is no longer 1965 or 1971 when war was fought with conventional weapons. I hope you are right on Advanis ambitions being kept in check by wiser people.

correction #137: ``But so far, their is very hysteria on the Pakistani side.``

should read,

But so far, their is very little hysteria on the Pakistani side.

Saw Ambassador Lalit Mansingh on Fox this morning...very eloquent, effective....(and no beehives on his head like that Lodhi woman)

``If you had a full war between India and Pakistan, not just skirmishes on the border ... India would start winning,`` said former US ambasador Dennis Kux, who has served in both India and Pakistan.

``And at a certain point Pakistan, rather than going under, would push the button,`` he said, appearing on CNN`s ``The Capital Gang`` show.

MORE AWARDS

Nut cracker award to shankar to ensure that he is the last of the genetic line of quacks.( may be it is too late)

A web directory award to sadna to remind her of the sites she hasnt visited.

Mirror award to scout to replace the computer monitor to see the effects of ``fair and lovely` and to be more useful.

A mechanical net nanny award to punch anNy when she uses, ji, unkal etc.

NEW YEAR AWARDS

Roulette wheel award to Romair to remind him that which ever way the wheel is spun, a more resourceful adversary alaways wins, even in a fair ( fifty fifty probability) game. ( dont ask me to re-read the markov chain proof for this).

Weather c/ock/ award for YLH to remind him of the opinion to chose so that there is some consistancey.

Train ticket award to Ferzok so that he can write the essence of his 10,000 word article on the back of the ticket.

Broken pencil award to Urstruly, there is no point.

Australian abroginal painting award to hamidm to show what else one can do with the dots.

Uncle sam award to belittle tahmed, some- one who is more holier than thou than him.

Hey Indian Guys ..... what about the land mine explosion which took place yesterday ?!?!?! Why is ISI not blamed yet .... comeon say it :) it must be either JeM or LT who did it, offcourse with the support of ISI and approval of Musharraf :) ....... oh I forgot there could be another reason for it ..... may be ur defense minister Fernandez asusual again made a cheap deal and made some money when he purchased those landmines which exploded even before they were laid !!! what if Indian Nukes explode before they are being fired ? ;-) (Think Guys, this could happen too) :)

Regards,

Asim

Reply # 115 anarayan

[``Among pakis only you seem to be taking the Indus Water Treaty issue seriously. I guess you`re the only pakistani who`s worried about how to wash his arse. But look at the bright side. Soon the nation can start using rocks...a proud Arab tradition.``]

There is another glorious Arab tradition that we will follow: make the conquered Hindus our slaves and have them lick it clean...... the ones who survive the mushroom that is.

sOME RED BLOODED pAKISTANI rOMAIR OR uRSTRULY or someone wanted info on ELECTIO in indian state u.p. (which has 25% more population than WHOLE of Pakistan,) is : Nomination filing last date is in 3 weeks .





SUNDAY

30 DECEMBER 2001



BJP UPSETS UP ALLIES’ NEW YEAR PARTY

By Amita Verma



Lucknow, Dec. 29

The reluctance of the Bharatiya Janata Party to finalise the seat-sharing arrangement with its allies in Uttar Pradesh has dampened the New Year spirit for ministers belonging to the allied groups.

The uncertainty over their political future and the tough task of facing the electorate in the next few weeks has made several ministers cancel all elaborate plans for New Year’s Eve.

There are neither any trips planned to Bangkok or Goa this year, nor are there any plans to bring in the New Year on a ship in mid-sea. No parties at wildlife resorts, not even a simple bonfire dinner at a farmhouse.

“There are three weeks left to file nominations and we still do not know on which symbol we will have to contest the elections. We met chief minister Rajnath Singh, who assured us that we would get tickets from the BJP. But there is the state BJP president, Mr Kalraj Misra, who keeps up the confusion by saying that only ministers with a clean image will be given seats. A ‘clean image’ is a very subjective term and any one of us could be sacrificed on this issue. Until this uncertainty ends, there is hardly any reason to celebrate the New Year,” says a Loktantrik Congress minister.

The BJP, on the other hand, has announced that it will release its list of candidates by January 14. The state leadership has not yet set any date for finalising the seat-sharing arrangement with the allies.

“The suspense is killing. We cannot get our election memo rabilia and posters made unless we are assured of getting the party symbol. We cannot even begin campaigning in our constituencies because we do not know where we are headed,” says a Lok Janshakti Party minister who returned to the state capital after a fortnight’s stay in his constituency.

According to BJP sources, the delay in finalising the seat-sharing arrangement with the allies is mainly due to a difference of opinion between the chief minister and the state party president. Sources claim that while Mr Rajnath Singh is keen on giving tickets to sitting MLAs from the allies, Mr Kalraj Misra is determined to be selective and wants to deny tickets to certain ministers who have not been in his good books in the past few years.

BJP leader in charge of UP affairs Kushabhau Thakre is in favour of the chief minister’s view and has announced that the BJP will not desert those ministers who have helped its government run a full term.

Party strategists, meanwhile, reveal that the delay in ticket distribution and seat-sharing is deliberate. “We want the Samajwadi Party and the Bahujan Samaj Party to finalise their candidates first. We will then select our candidate, keeping in mind the caste combinations in each constituency. This election is crucial for the BJP and we cannot follow any policy blindly, without weighing the consequences,” said a party strategist.

It is amply clear that the BJP is not taking any chances and is even consulting astrologers on each issue. January 14 as the date for announcing the first list of candidates has also been selected for astrological reasons. “This day happens to be Makar Sankranti, which marks the beginning of an auspicious period. Therefore, we want to initiate our process for elections on this date,” said a senior party functionary.

While the BJP follows the stars and weighs the pros and cons, it is the ministers of the allied groups who

shammi

The NY Times comprehends them too:

“Pakistan`s intelligence service killed more people in terrorist incidents over the years than Osama bin Laden did…”

….not that the isi is a hotbed of pacifists but this coming from a country who’s intelligence agency is the CIA???….the mind boggles…

Binifer:

“Semi, there is to be some sort of a silent protest on the border at wagah from Indian citizens and Pakistanis on 31st at midnight. White clothes candles shandles wagaeraah- the works. There are, somebody mentioned close to 3 thousand people expected in all- some 2 from India and close to one from Pakistan. Know anything about it? Will you be going? Can you (or anybody else who is in the city of Lahore) fill us in?”

….the candlelight vigil at the border is a yearly tradition and i guess this year it’ll have more meaning…i’ll try to find out more about it….just a couple of days back some friends with their old history teacher went to wagah….they had this big banner reading: make love, not war…..and would you believe it, just across the border, was this sikh gentleman and a women in a sari holding up a banner: pyar karo, jang na laro…..