Running Naked

tahmed321

....... i like your suggestion of handing over JeM and LeT leaders to india, and while we are at it we can hand over maulana fazlur rehman and maulana sami-ul-haq to the americans for being in cahoots with al-qaida .... it should be easy to find the proof ........ mushy has another chance to clean house and he seems to be making the right moves - i hope he won`t let silly things like national pride and honor get in the way of common sense ......

..... maybe there is a silver lining to this cloud - i just hope to god that some trigger happy subedar-major doesn`t start a war while the generals are discussing plans for the next defence housing scheme at the ghq ........

shammi,

[to hamidm]

``You have a Canning Road, too? Good to know that there are some things that still bind us in these troubling times. We used to have a Curzon Road before the natives changed the name to Kasturba Gandhi Marg.``

How come you know all these choti-moti gullies in Delhi like canning road ??!!!

Don`t tell me now - you attended Bhartiya Vidya Mandir!

regards,

THOUGHT FOR THE NEW YEAR

`` With in fifty years of its existance pakistan has two spectacular achievements. In response to the inhuman treatment of its own citizens, a foreign country, india responded, defeted the pak army and liberated bangladesh. Twenty five years later, an international coalition defeated a pak sponsored taliban government in a neighbouring country. Loss of pakistani lives in the latest incident is much higher than that of the earlier ones``...

`` We pakistanis have to wake up to is that how did this country happen to create such human tragedies, one in its own territory and the other to its neighbour``..

`` How did pakistan create instituions so hostile to its own people``...

`` today oon one side afghanistan is telling that osama is in pakistan..`` On the other side india is telling that terrorists who attacked the paliment are in pakistan``..

`` How did pakistan come to be in this precarious position``..

``The source can be found in the two nation theory that cretaed pakistan. Only a senile person could have embraced such a divisive barabaric thory to create a nation``...

The above quotes are from Ayesha Jalals book `` The senile spokesman``, Harper Collins, New York 2001, pp482.

jo arokiaraj

``our bravest and most victorious General have been christian (Sam Maneckshaw).``

Sorry, he is Parsi

``Maybe this is what peace lovers in India and Pakistan ought to do: Run stark naked in the streets to force their leaders to give peace a chance.

``

How about writers in Washington taking the first turn???

Binifer:

Relax, no one`s family is about to be wiped out. If there was a military solution to the Pakistan/Kashmir problem, India would have gone for it a long time back. Like the proverbial prostitute who cried rape to get back at her paramour, India`s whole siyapa is about getting the world to pressurize Pakistan and extracting some concessions on Kashmir.

They want to project a one day snapshot out of a 50 year long reel and want to prove their victimhood based on the events of this single day.

I can bet there won`t be a war, but I might be wrong. Tell me, if India does attack Pakistan, what are we supposed to do? surrender?

Ref 12-head-Nagnatheshwar #: 157

[JUST THE FACTS mam in case you are a woman which is 50% at least & more possibly.]

Accusing Joseph Arokiaraj of being a man, when you have used names like Deepika!

The only thing that is likely to happen is that you will get unrelentingly pounded by Binifer and you will drag your sorry a$$ away from Chowk.

Why is the Indian leadership creating this war hysteria when they understand that any misadventure could easily lead to a war that both countries--and the rest of the world--will regret for a very long time? Two possible answers come to mind (i.e., if you believe that there are any logical answers):

1. India wants to put utmost pressure on Pakistan. Vajpayee and associates want Pakistan to cut all support for Kashmiris fighting for the ``right of self-determination.``

2. Vajpaee and others are merely acting tough to win popular support that will help them win upcoming elections.

Common sense would tell you that creating war hysteria is not the best way of achieving either of the above-stated goals.

1. With the level of animosity present between an average Indian and an average Pakistani, any Pakistan government that would bow to the Indian pressure would lose its popular support and would not remain in power for too long. It is obvious that the bellicose attitude of the Indian leadership is making it harder for Pakistan to crack down on the organizations suspected of terrorism.

2. When political leaders create hype about something, common people supporting those leaders want to see action. Does the Indian leadership want its populace to embrace the prospects of a nuclear war?

India has a great chance to prove to the world that she is a peaceful country being harassed by terrorist Pakistan. Here is what India should do. To show the world her clean hands India should enact the UN resolution of 1948 and hold a plebiscite in Kashmir. The result of that plebiscite would prove that people of Kashmir love India and the so-called Kashmiri separation movement is in fact a creation of Pakistan. This in turn would expose the terrorist nature of Pakistan to the world. And that would really teach Pakistan a lesson.

Go Vajpayee, go for it.

Cemendtaur

``More seriously, why shouldnt we hand the head of JeM (for example) to India?``

I don`t know this fella, but if he is anything like Fazloo or Qazi, we should deal with the bas_tard ourselves and tell the Indians to bugger off. If these guys (JeM, LeT) were stupid enough (and I think they are) to pull that stunt on 12/13, they should be tried and punished in Pakistan.

Binifer:

Relax, read this:

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/today/editor/opi5.htm

Is it to be war?

Brian Cloughley

The Times of India is an important newspaper. When it reports that “the [Indian] Army has already expressed its preparedness for a strike” against Pakistan, the world had better take notice. And those who follow developments in India have not forgotten the threat at the end of October by Commander Northern Command, Lieutenant General R K Nanavatty, that invasion and capture of Pakistan-administered Kashmir is “achievable”.

The general was precise in his prepared speech and said that “The nuclearisation of the subcontinent might have altered the situation, but despite that the space exists for a limited conventional operation . . . In August 1965 the situation was not entirely dissimilar to what it is today when we took a limited conventional war in the Haji Pir area.” This is startling stuff, and it seems India’s defence hierarchy and politicians are preparing the country for war.

On Sunday The Hindustan Times carried an interview with Home Minister LK Advani in which he said “[Party members] have not asked for war but hot pursuit. What is wrong with that? It is legitimate under international law.” There are considerable doubts as to its legality, because the term is not recognised in international or any other law than that of force majeure (with which the world is becoming increasingly familiar), but this is not the point. If Mr Advani really thinks crossing the LoC by Indian soldiers is not war, then he could be accused of naiveté. But we all know Mr Advani is not naïve: far from it.

So we realise he is using a prestigious newspaper to give a calculated message, and it is well to heed it. Mr Advani knows exactly what he wants, and The Times of India chimes with this in saying the Indian army “has pointed out that a limited action in PoK could not lead to a large-scale conflagration since Pakistan’s political situation will not allow its army to undertake a full-fledged war.” This is dangerous nonsense.

The options for attack given by the TOI are: cross-Line artillery fire “which would include the Bofors guns” to a depth of 20 km; air strikes using “Mirage-2000 or Sukhoi aircraft”; foot penetration across the Line in which “The Army crosses over, bombards the camps and returns to its own territory within 24 hours; and, last, and barely credibly, “Surface-to-surface Prithvi missiles, with a range of 175 km can also be used.”

The artillery ‘stand-off’ option of firing across the LoC is the least risky from the point of view of retaliation leading to escalation. Indeed, only a few hours after the TOI piece on ‘striking back’ there was an Indian artillery bombardment across the LoC which proved nothing. It was claimed that “between 8 and 10 enemy bunkers were destroyed”, and this is interesting on two counts: first, use of the word ‘enemy’.

No equivocation here by the official Indian spokesman. Pakistan is ‘the enemy’, which is a prime indicator of mindset. Second, the number of bunkers is specified, as it always is, which is ludicrous. (No news agency ever queries this; nor are the numbers of militants claimed killed by Indian security forces ever questioned by the media. By my reckoning, going on Indian officially reported figures, there shouldn’t be a militant left anywhere in the sub-continent.) The bombardment was an exercise in futility. It was a yippee shoot, as we used to call them in Vietnam. A waste of time, ammunition and money, but, hey!, there’s plenty of cash for yippee shoots, so that politicians can say they’re being tough.

Then there is the air strike option, which moves closer to the edge of the escalation envelope. Pushing at the corners, as it were, because the much-vaunted laser-guided weapons don’t work (not one of them did during the Kargil incursion), and aircraft will have to come in low and slow - comparatively slow, that is, but they can’t scream in at 500 knots: they have to be straight and level for a minute or so, at 360 or 420 which means that guns and missiles will have a good chance of shooting down an intruder - not to mention a well-trained PAF waiting to have a go.

I won’t give the number of AA weapons along the LoC, but it can be said they are almost wall-to-wall in areas where aerial ground attack is feasible. The chances of escalation are increased by use of airpower because of temptation to penetrate just that bit further into opposition airspace. How far inside is acceptable before war becomes inevitable? How long is your contrail?

Airspace problems are minor compared to ground penetration complexities. LK Advani is a typical politician, they all think a quick clean strike is possible: but they are talking baloney, because a raid into well-defended territory is an intricate operation requiring air and artillery support, deception, surprise, and all other good things from battle manuals. I have not the space to go into detail, but an operation of this type will require at least a brigade, because they will have to fight their way in and back.

Formations on the flanks of the main area of hostilities will inevitably be drawn in, and this is where escalation will begin. Mr Advani’s ‘hot pursuit’ over the LoC would rapidly become a hot war across his own border. Then watch the hawks take to the cellars as India’s unmodified, creaky T-72 tanks and antique T-55s and Vijayantas grind to a halt before even firing a shot. Indian armour is in a parlous state because of monstrous inefficiency and widespread corruption in the Ministry of Defence and its ancillary organisations.

The last and barmiest scenario is use of surface-to-surface missiles. It is not important that they probably won’t work (nothing that has been touched by India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation has actually worked: not a rifle, not a gun, not a radar; and the less said about the mega-crore disasters of the Arjun tank and the light helicopter the better), because it would be the actual movement of Prithvi missiles that could trigger escalation. Pakistan cannot be completely certain that Prithvi is more dangerous to its operators than to its intended target, as assessed by at least one foreign intelligence establishment. Further, although it seems there is no nuclear warhead available for Prithvi . . . . well, again, there is no absolute certainty about this. Where there is uncertainty, there is danger; where there is danger there has to be counter-preparation; where there is counter-preparation there is probability of wider conflict.

It will be said the US would counsel Pakistan aggressively to refrain from action if Prithvis were deployed, but the question then is - where’s your guarantee? If the US wants Pakistan to refrain from a pre-emptive strike on Prithvi convoys, it would have to come up with a cast-iron commitment that Pakistan would not undergo a missile attack. If no such assurance were given it would be insane for Pakistan to do nothing, even if Prithvis will fizz, sputter and explode on the rails, or shortly after leaving them. India’s problem is that Pakistan has nuclear missiles that work, and an intriguing air interdiction plan designed, obviously enough, to confound air defence radar (which is why, I imagine, India is so energetically pursuing purchase of Israeli AWACS aircraft at mind-boggling expense).

The Times of India may be floating a trial balloon for the Indian army, and the New Delhi hawks may be flying kites to gauge how much US support may be given in the event of war, but it seems Mr Advani wants military action against ‘the enemy’ as India’s official spokesman so forthrightly calls Pakistan. It is difficult to believe that senior officers of India’s army are serious about invading Pakistan-administered Kashmir, or crossing the border, as their equipment is so defective, but the air force and the navy are another factor.

The navy’s one carrier can barely move and presents a threat only to wider employment of its sister vessels, as so many of them are required to protect it, while few submarines would attract other than intrepid curiosity-seekers as crew, and its newly-delivered main surface combatants have no air defence measures whatever, courtesy of DRDO which promises to deliver them next year. Or sometime. The air force reckons it can nuke Pakistan to ruins in no time flat, and it is air force leaders who have so energetically and stupidly resisted tri-service integration and creation of proper joint headquarters for India’s defence forces. Fortunately they do not seem to be too influential, but there are politicians who avidly promote their views.

The hawks are soaring in India, but if they think capture of Pakistan-administered Kashmir is achievable, they are mistaken. Military analysts around the world know the Kargil War was a debacle for India, no matter the spin put on that episode by many (but by no means all) Indian analysts and commentators. The state of India’s defence forces is abysmal. The officers and men are extremely high quality, but equipment, ammunition and logistics are poor to the point of government criminality. Mr Advani and the rest of the ‘hot pursuit’ advocates had better have a look at reality, and it would be a good thing if General Nanavatty and the air force jingoists were to do the same, and then advise the government in New Delhi to cool the rhetoric.

hamidm #104
Hey, I was around those parts too and your post is spot-on except
``..the pakis were nowhere to be seen..``
There were a few.

Reply # 149 hamidm

``[urstruly ........ this man makes me want to puke``]

Could also be because of your drinking too much cheap QDL whiskey.

You yourself are one of the top puke inducers, hamidm. This is rich coming from a fan of Gen. Pinochet.

# 131

[``i do think we are headed for another crisis in october when the army goes through with yet another sham election and makes a mockery out of democracy and a fool out of the miserable masses``]

Re: Anarayan

``...not one measly Indian has written a word about hawks on each side, `stopping the madness`, etc...``

There is a deep sense of outrage in India stemming from over 2 decades of ISI-sponsored terrorism in India. The Japan Times captured it when it said, ``What produced deep revulsion in India is that the intruders clearly belonged to the two Pakistan-based outfits: Lashkar-e-Tayyaba and Jaish-e-Mohammed, who are suspected of carrying out their plan at the behest of the country`s intelligence agency, the ISI.``

However, India`s outrage is not reason enough to act irrationally. Every reasonable chance should be extended to Musharraf to stamp out the trouble makers. If he fails, or is unwilling, then India will have no option left, but to do the job for him.

Re: Rdesikan

``..The late Sam Maneckshaw...``

Hey -- Sam Maneckshaw is still alive!

Re: Tahmed321

``...Next step: hand them over to India..``

I don`t think that that may even be necessary. India will not even mind if Musharraf were to grant a general amnesty to all the JeM and LeT activists if they cease and desist from fomenting violence in India. If Musharraf were to quietly `defang` these organizations, that would be enough to calm the sense of outrage in India. Indian leaders would probably be happy at receiving private assurances from Musharraf even if he made no public pronouncements.

``...If the Indian policy makers had brains, they would opt for option (a)...``

I agree -- the goal should be simply to allow Musharraf to deal with the JeM and LeT. And if he does that, then he will have earned at least one Indian`s respect. And if Musharraf needs time, then India should be willing to give him that as long as his commitment remains firm.

``...My fear is that the gleam of finishing off Pakistan once and for all is driving people like Advani towards war...``

I do not think that Advani will be allowed to get away with that by Vajpayee, the Service Chiefs, or his cabinet colleagues. Besides, Uncle Sam is going to be watching what India does very carefully. India`s objective is to change Musharraf`s policy, not his regime or the nature of the state.

Re: Romair

``...People requesting peace (like myself)...``

Is that what you requested when you made the case of infiltration of armed jehadis into India?

``...India is stating...without providing any proof to the second country, or to any of the international institutions like the UN or ICJ...``

I think that many Pakistani commentators have themselves admitted that no proof is needed (read my numerous cut and pastes from Pakistani newspapers). If proof was needed, the US is convinced. Otherwise it would not have designated the JeM and LeT as Foreign Terrorist Organisations -- the `worst` possible designation for any organization and the country that harbors them. Then, we also have the matter of the bombing of the J&K assembly (for which the JeM made a quick claim of responsibility, only to be followed by a clumsy retraction). Still in doubt? Did you hear the live testimony of the JeM accomplice?

Re: Rajanjua

``...BJP is no different than the Nazis...``

BJP is indeed India`s most fascist party -- but it does not even come close to the NSDAP.

Re: Hamidm

``...selling...on canning road...``

You have a Canning Road, too? Good to know that there are some things that still bind us in these troubling times. We used to have a Curzon Road before the natives changed the name to Kasturba Gandhi Marg.

re: mullah #134

this arse`s family is digging bomb shelters according to his own post, and the SOB wants to go protest about kashmir...doesn`t give a damn that his own country might be fried, but is worried about kashmir...