Running Naked

Shammi (#270) and hamidm (various): No, shammi, hamidm kids you not - in my misspent youth I was the drummer for a band in Karachi and we played various hot locales there, like the Beach Luxury Hotel (!), the Disco at the Hotel Metropole, Askers Snack Pono, Saaz aur Awaz, The Oasis. And at some of these locations there were belly dancers from the MiddleEast as well as European girls. And several times I remember losing track of my timing as the girls stripped. Such were the days ...!

tahmed321#246

``si galph az Bangal``

Aap bahut shareer hain:))))

harimau # 244

``We are the country of Animists, Buddhists, Catholics, Hindus, Jains, Jews, Protestants, Sikhs, and Zoroastrians and anybody else you can think of.``

Hey! what happened to the 150 million muslims

in India:))

Dost-Mittar:

Rejoinder to my previous post to you--Aqil Shah of The Dawn is now beginning to GET IT:

``...What should Pakistan do? For one, the establishment could start by adopting a tough line against the militants. Statements by leaders of jihadi outfits alluding to the government`s hands-off approach not only belie official posturing but clearly harm our already tarnished international credibility. In a re-defined geo-political environment, Pakistan can ill-afford to be seen with its hands in the cookie jar...``

http://www.dawn.com/2001/12/31/op.htm#3

I don`t know how much clout these Op/Ed columnists have with the military junta, but they clearly do a better job (understandably so) in media relations and media management than the 5-star generals with pretty red bands in their hats in GHQ.

The Prime Minister`s New Year`s message to the nation:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/dec/31pm.htm

`Bin Laden`s money funds the fight for new Muslim

homeland in Kashmir`

By Peter Popham

01 January 2002

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia_china/story.jsp?story=112291

re: heera mandi da puttar ali

dude, that was lame...even for you...go find something else, mofo

`ROCKY` TIMES AHEAD FOR PAKISTAN...

Tahmed, knowing the conservationist/environmentalist that you are, here`s an idea for you to make some $$$ and also serve the national cause in times to come.

Company: Rock Recycling Center (Islamabad)

CEO: Tahmed

CTO: Ali1 (`Rocky` to friends)

VC funding: Romair

Company Motto: You can take the Rock out of a Pakistani but you cannot take the Pakistani out of the Rock - but heck, we`ll try.

Distribution: Sold as `Punjabi Patthar` (TM). After several re-cycles distributed locally as Multani Mitti.

re: AAmir the 12-head

{If India govt were to be punished by, a super power like U.S.A. or even CHINA ,for not being able to reign in Terrorist like VERAPPAN,GOWLE,NAIK,BODO land}

hey idiot, there`s a difference between your family member blowing up your house vs. an outsider....get it?....now go back to cyber-stalking girls with 50 cards a day....

Re: Hamidm

``...twenty five years ago they even had bars where you could walk in off the street and get a drink .....and night clubs where naked white women danced on stage to entertain the believers ...``

Hamidm, GETOUTAHERE. You are kidding us, aren`t you?

Ref Eunuch1 #: 256

[Another advantage of my passport is that it can be used as an H1B chick magnet...]

Hey, you were getting no takers even at the gay bars. What makes you think that flashing your green passport will make you more attractive to chicks? Most likely, they will call the INS and DOJ to ensure that you get to one of those ``voluntary`` friendly interviews.

hamidm #252
``remember the parliament! to hell with pakistan! ..... and so what if it doesn`t rhyme``

Maine aisaa tho nahin kahaa tha. You happen to have gotten it wrong again, on three counts.

Firstly, India is not saying to hell with Pakistan (neither am I incidentally). Vajpayee in his New Years address says `` India (would be) willing to walk more than half the distance to work closely with Pakistan to resolve, through dialogue, any issue, including the contentious issue of Jammu and Kashmir if Islamabad’s rulers shed (their) anti-India mentality).`` Rhetoric apart, there is no point in India going to go to war if Musharraf remains sincere in tackling these groups. I donot think India believes that a purely military solution to Indo-Pak conflict will be durable, imposed from either side.

Secondly, its not just the Parliament building of brick and mortar, nor the MPs as human beings at risk, its a question of India`s representative government being the most significant symbol of India. A section of the urban upper classes may be cynical about it, but consistent voting turnouts (higher in rural areas) of 60-70% in a diverse electorate of 650 million show that many have kept faith in the principle of representative government through peaceful means(however flawed in practice) though they lead much tougher lives in more unforgiving circumstances than any Pakistani jihadi (or their sponsors) can claim. Those who target India`s Parliament target all these people from rural landless to farmers to the urban poor to small time businessman. I believe politically disaffected Indians, however violent know this too, Pakistani religious zealots donot, evidently(or donot care). So I`ll definately say, to hell with these ignoramuses, though I would expect better understanding from informed `liberals`.

And thirdly, how can it be ``to hell with Pakistan``, if India is demanding action against LeT and JeM. LeT and JeM donot represent Pakistan. Look at it this way, if LeT and JeM get away with attacking the seat of the Indian government, and the mighty Indian state did nothing, what if LeT and JeM and their sponsors got carried away with their success and began to try their tactics with coercing Pakistani institutions next? Even without holding any brief for Musharraf, god forbid what if he became their next target?

The chances of Pakistan having representative government of its own is not unconnected with the continued good health of the Indian variety next door. Bush was caught in a inescapable blowback of his own rhetoric too. If every 6th person on earth is an Indian, an attack on the Indian Parliament cannot be classified as anything but terrorism with global reach striking at roots of democratic principles. If only jihadis had paid attention in their civics classes :).

hamidm #266

We have to meet someday and talk about that old
Karachi over a shot of Beehive or a glass of California Merlot.
And I will argue the following point with you:
The Nihari is slightly better in Karachi and that one place for Lassi on Monkey Road (Old name) run by Hijras could have have given Lahore some competition. But the Beef Payas in Lahore beat
their counterparts in Karachi hands down.

And since I use my real identity on CHOWK I will stop here before I start discussing other sins.

Write to me sometime at ras@chowk.com

Ras

Dear Chowkies (pakis and indians and Sigalph az Bangal too): Best wishes for the new year to you and your families. Let us hope that 2002 proves to be an year of peace all around the world.

asimkhan #240 arae yaar aap itna ghussa kyooN kartae haiN?

jay

``One good thing about Karachi`s Defence is that unlike the one in Lahore young single men can go to many parks without being asked to wear trousers or track suit bottoms ``

.......laholaywalakuwat! ... karachi always was the sodom and gomorrah of pakistan - it is the reason why the land of the pure has been forsaken by allah and the imf ..... twenty five years ago they even had bars where you could walk in off the street and get a drink .....and night clubs where naked white women danced on stage to entertain the believers ...... ever since they shut down these places and opened up the madrassas, the young and the restless started praying and joining the lashkars for entertainment and martyrdom ......before islam was discovered by zia ul haq even lahore had horse-racing, bars, liquour stores and the red-light area was still the best in the sub-continent ....... pakistanis were normal people and quite unconcerned with the fact that they were headed for hell and damnation ....then things changed, a new god was discovered and we became obsessed with mmortality and the hereafter, forgetting the fact that we were mere mortals who needed to have some fun .........

....... i am glad to see karachi is making a comeback .... who knows - shorts today, bars and strippers tomorrow ....... of course, you will still have to go to lahore for nihari and a decent glass of lassi ......

hamidm, various

Yes indeed pakistanis and indians are world apart in our thinking. Pakis ask, india has been attacked many times before so why the bellicosity now? Indians say, precisely because we have been attacked before and did not respond. You see, like it or not there has been a war waged on india by pak army and its henchmen. India did not respond with force during kargil because then, as now, GOI was sensitive to the fact that GOP may have been kept in the dark by the pak army. A wider war would surely have meant overthrow of the pak govt that had just signed the lahore treaty. Turned out that india had miscalculated and kargil signaled an increase in militancy in kashmir, a coup in pak with the result that kashmir became the only agenda in our mutual relations. If india were not to react the way it is reacting now there would be several consequences: (1) a government that does not take the assault on the most significant institution of the land loses people`s faith, (2) the jihadis are emboldened, and (3) pak army continues to up the ante.

A war, if it happens, cannot be limited. It will be a wider war in which india will seek to annihilate the pak army so that future pak foreign policy will not be driven by military considerations alone. Whether india will succeed or not is anyone`s guess. But the alternatives are not encouraging.

As for kashmir, since it is pak that seeks to change the status quo, it is up to the pakis to spell out what their demands are with respect to kashmir.

tahmed

``Field Marshall Romair, Reservist Urstruly, Toilet Cleaner ali1, and Draft Dodger hamidm:

Report for duty. On the double. Now!!``

....... i refuse to fight on the same side as urstruly ! ....actually i refuse to fight on any side, and can hardly think of a cause that is worth dying for - i love this life and contrary to what jay tells me i don`t believe i can come back as tom cruise ........ i am a disciple of rodney king, who said, `` people, why can`t we get along`` ..... just for a moment, step back and look at how silly grown men look in combat boots and carrying guns - isn`t that why god invented professional wrestling and road-rage, so that men can work off the testosterone and perform their mating rituals ......

....... for five weeks before the saluting test gentleman cadets at pma march up and down, stamping their feet and doing dain pher, bain pher from sunrise to sunset ...not thinking, just stamping their feet goaded on by the drill staff and shouted at by the BM and the adjudant on horseback ....``shahbash, ye pak fauj key naujawan aa rehay hain - main sumjah key shahid kalaj ki larkiyan aa rahee hain, peechay pher !``..... like posessed men they charge with drawn bayonets at straw-men dressed up as hindoos and sikhs shouting ya-ali and silly pinglish words like perry, but, kut .........all this so that they can salute properly and get a week off ........ i was one of the few who failed this test and stayed behind to smoke dope and watch the rain cascade down the tin roof ......

...... so you see, i am quite unfit to join the war effort ....i am also quite sure that romair and urstruly are not ready to give up ncaa basketball and the comfort of suburban life in silicon valley and mo-town to go sit in a trench in kashmir ......... we will let those silly natives do the dirty work - of course they do have our full moral support .......

tahmed321,

``Field Marshall Romair, Reservist Urstruly, Toilet Cleaner ali1, and Draft Dodger hamidm:``

Such modesty is unbecoming of you Tahmed!! ...don`t forget yourself now...`Pakistani ROCK concert organiser`...heeereeeee`s Tahmed!!!

You may also want to check out these movies, Tahmed:

Do Boondh Pani

Patthar kay Sanam

best regards!!!

Re: Dost-Mittar

“…If India does not cool down the war rhetoric, it will get one…”

It is fairly obvious that India, as the irrepressible Hamidm puts it, wants to derive as much political mileage as possible out of this fiasco by creating a crisis, and discredit Pakistan’s grand strategy of low-intensity conflict coupled with terrorism. The best way to do this is through international diplomatic pressure (remember the strategic lessons learned by the Pak military from Kargil?), and the next best way is to let another such attack take place in the full glare of international media. Have you noticed how quiet the insurgency in Kashmir has become all of a sudden? Nothing works like global condemnation.

Lastly, by stretching tensions to almost the breaking point, India is compelling Musharraf to inadvertently send a global message – ‘it is easier for me to mobilize for war against India, then it is for me to crack down against the Islamists’. Precisely, the message that India wants him to deliver, thus further confirming Pakistan’s standing in the comity of nations – as an exporter of terror and a reckless, nuclear-equipped state. How many countries are going to buy the argument that putting the JeM/LeT out of business is worth fighting a nuclear war? Should Pakistan break first, (ie. launch a pre-emptive nuclear attack), the world community will again perceive India to be the victim, and India will be justified in taking the fight to its ‘logical’ conclusion. Now, India is betting that it will never come to that since Musharraf is not insane. The longer that India stretches this out without actually launching operations, the more opportunity there will be for the jehadists to conduct another outrageous attack in India. (If they truly are not under Musharraf’s control, I will be able to understand his nervousness.) Only this time, it will be in the full glare of world media. That will hurt Pakistan and its grand strategy, even as they see Indians writhing in ‘pain’.

Indeed, under this assumption, it is quite possible that India may even conduct pin-prick raids/inflict damage to the Pakistan military assets with a view towards inviting retaliation, but not making any military moves that would threaten the existence of Pakistan proper. India knows that there are diplomatic limits that Musharraf cannot cross (e.g. fight war without mollifying global public opinion on JeM/LeT), and if he does not cross them – his own position will be undermined by the other hardline generals in the Pak military. If that happens, Pakistan’s grand strategy will take another blow – it will reaffirm global opinion that Pakistan is an exporter of terror and a reckless, unstable, nuclear-equipped state. Vajpayee is getting ready to send out MPs (including from the Opposition) to different world capitals to persuade public opinion in January. Expect the tension to continue till atleast then.

Pakistan has very few options – all bad. The low-intensity conflict/terror option is its least-poor option. But, even that is going to fail. The good options are very hard – ie. strengthen economy, strengthen political institutions, etc.

Re: Hamidm

I think that India will not rest until Musharraf stamps out the LeT/JeM completely or launches a nuke to stop an imminent Indian attack:

``India will next week conduct its biggest military exercises in 15 years along its tense border with Pakistan, an army spokesman (Xavier Thomas) said Monday...All units will participate in the exercises which will shake the desert...The army official added that the wargames would entail ``testing demo missiles`` as well as India`s main T-72 and `Arjun` battle tanks...``

http://headlines.sify.com/433news2.html

Re: Hamidm

And the world is about to fall on Musharraf`s head like a ton of bricks unless he mollifies global public opinion (From the Washinton Times):

``Mr. Bush ``urged President Musharraf to take additional strong and decisive measures to eliminate the extremists who seek to harm India, undermine Pakistan, provoke a war between India and Pakistan and destabilize the international coalition against terrorism,`` ...The sharply contrasting tone of President Bush`s messages to Mr. Vajpayee and Gen. Musharraf on Saturday strongly suggests that Washington is about to do the same thing (as with the Taleban after 9/11) with regard to Islamabad`s support for Kashmiri terrorist groups like the JEM and LT...Pakistan needs to understand that to continue support for Kashmiri terrorists would be the height of folly. It is essential that Islamabad get completely out of the terrorism business...``

Notice -- nobody is talking freedom struggle here anymore. If Musharraf is wise, he will pay heed to what the world is saying. Even the Chinese cannot afford to see a military victory for the terrorists.

Re: Hamidm

It is beginning to get scary now -- from the Washington Times:

``...India has made it obvious that it will continue to increase its pressure on Pakistan unless Islamabad, 1) bans Kashmiri militant groups, 2) arrests their leaders, and 3) puts an end to armed struggle in Kashmir.

Pakistan can either accept this demand or go for the obvious, i.e. a war. Many in Pakistan realize that this time a war with India will not be as ``civilized`` as the wars of 1965 and 1971 when both sides avoided civilian targets.

They know that this time the Indians will go for major economic targets, such as the Tarbela and Mangla dams near Islamabad. The combined effect of destroying these two dams and blocking the rivers from flowing into Pakistan can trigger the beginning of the end for Islamabad.

India can also attempt to capture Pakistani Kashmir, merge it with India and thus settle the Kashmir dispute to its satisfaction. The other option will be to enter Pakistani Kashmir, destroy militant camps and go back to Indian Kashmir.

Yet another option for India is to attack Pakistan`s soft-belly, a narrow corridor in the south that joins the southern Sindh province with the rest of Pakistan. Occupying this corridor will also sever Islamabad`s links with its economic hub and the main port of Karachi.

Any of these attempts will trigger the process that will lead to the demise of the Pakistani state, as it exists today. Faced with this scenario, any government in Pakistan can be forced to go for ``the unthinkable`` and use the nuclear weapon for protecting the state....``

I think that the message emanating from S. Asia is -- we will gladly go to war (even a nuclear one) unless the world is able to stop us first.

Re: anNy:

``..``...banned ptv in a place which had a funny name...``

It`s not Jhoomri-Tallaiya or Vandi-Periyar, is it?

``...my khalas have all gone hysterical...they are now having the family in india tape all the episodes they might miss...``

Better get two copies made in separate towns in India -- Redundancy will eliminate risks of power failures, and also buy some insurance against a nuclear attack. How about buying your own satellite dish? That way, you won`t be dependent on the cable TV operator?

Reply # 218 anarayan

[``In about 3 months time...you can use your pakistani passport as a wipe. Won`t be good for anything else by then.``]

Now that vedic astrology is standard curriculam at Yai Yai Tee thanks to Murli Manohar Joshi, every two bit H1-B cisco router installer can predict the future with accuracy. Congrats.

Most H1B code coolies will sniff, kiss and present my current passport as a wedding night gift even after I have used it as a wipe for 3 months, if only they can lay their dirty hands on it. Another advantage of my passport is that it can be used as an H1B chick magnet, only if the H1B chicks are not as ugly as they tend to be.

Reply # 218 anarayan

[``In about 3 months time...you can use your pakistani passport as a wipe. Won`t be good for anything else by then.``]

Now that vedic astrology is standard curriculam at Yai Yai Tee thanks to Murli Manohar Joshi, every two bit H1-B cisco router installer can predict the future with accuracy. Congrats.

Most H1B code coolies will sniff, kiss and present my current passport as a wedding night gift even after I have used it as a wipe for 3 months, if only they can lay their dirty hands on it. Another advantage of my passport is that it can be used as an H1B chick magnet, only if the H1B chicks are not as ugly as they tend to be.

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...Did you know that it was also used to camp the refugees from Pakistan after 1947? ...``

That too, I suppose.

Reply # 236 tahmed321

[The anarayan, ali1 ``dialogue`` aka The War of the Toilet Paper Tigers.]

good to see your sense of humor coming back, which tells us you are not scared anymore. Now repeat this vazeefa which will exorcise the demons of fear from your heart for good.

``There will be now war... There will be now war`` 101 times

``Indians are bluffing... Indians are bluffing`` 70 times

``US won`t attack Pakistan... US won`t attack Pakistan`` 101 times

and most important

``There will be no internment camps... There will be no internment camps`` 1001 times

``My US passport/Green Card is safe... My US passport/Green Card is safe`` 1001 times.



(Awwal-O-Aakhir Ayat Alkursi)

remember the parliament! to hell with pakistan! ..... and so what if it doesn`t rhyme

..... first there was the conquest of mecca because someone said the meccans had broken a treaty; next muhammad bin columbus conquered sind to avenge the death of a muslim damsel whose cries had reached the caliph; then there was william randolph hearst who manufactured the war against spain by raising the cry, `` remember the maine! to hell with spain`` - and of course he also produced a damsel in distress; no one remembers the gulf of tonkin, but that is how america got into the mess in vietnam ............ now it is the attack on some silly government building in a delhi slum which is being used by india to get rid of the pesky pakis once and for all - i am still waiting for them to produce the damsel in distress ........

......... i hope the clowns in the ghq and their batmen have read their history books..... there is nothing they can do to placate india - india smells an easy victory, it can taste the blood ( sorry - turnip juice) and will exact its pound of bhaji .... i just hope air marshall romair`s buddies can deliver half a dozen packages without getting lost on the way, and the EME guys who assembled the kits didn`t end up with loose springs and washers .........

......happy new year

Reply # 229 RSaxena

[would one of the pakistanis please answer this...i blow]

do you really? Rsux, we know what you do for a living, no need to acknowledge it in public. Heck, your name says it all!

Reply # 232 Joeseph Arokiaraj

[``Lets just go to war with these two bit pakistan.``]

You`re da man. Now only if your gutless/gonadless seventy-something leaders were as brave as you are.

[``Go George``]

errrr..... geroge? he is only a token, joey boy. Remember he was out of the loop at the time of nuclear blasts? (try bagpipe@hinduzealots.com .... go bagpipe!)

Joe, George, Graham..... you guys are just poster boys, actually meant to be BBQued like you know which animal (hint: Jews dont like this animal a lot)..... you can choose a slow BBQ at the hands of the likes of our great Indian chef Dara Singh or an instant BBQ from Pakistani nukes.

Reply # 234 dost-mittar

[You missed something basic about my post; the message (without the twists from you) was primarily for Indians and not Pakistanis.]

Regardless, your attempt at dehumanizing Pakistanis was pathetic. Do you really think that pakistanis are so fired by Islamic Jihadic fervor that they are impervious war, death and injury?

re: scout

{what did i say? it wasn`t nasty at all.}

`blind nationalism`....`fingers up a nose`...in a condescending way...not your nastiest, but still

Ref asimkhan #: 240

[A small question from Indians, why havent u guys changed the name of ur country to Hindustan, as thats what it should be called...]

Because we want to piss you Pakistanis off.

Jinnah was so pissed when we kept the name India. He always called the countries Pakistan and Hindustan. You guys used to choke on the name India and referred to us in your newspapers for the longest time as Hindustan. Anyway, Hindustan was the name given to their lands in the subcontinent by early Muslim conquerors and they had only conquered Punjab at that time. So you might want to re-name your province of Punjab as Hindustan. That would be historically correct even though the masses there had been converted by force to Islam. It might also remind you of what you once were.

We in India are not pure, as in the Land of the Pure (Pakistan). We are the country of Animists, Buddhists, Catholics, Hindus, Jains, Jews, Protestants, Sikhs, and Zoroastrians and anybody else you can think of. We have given refuge to Jews and Parsees when they fled for their lives from their native countries. You on the other hand are ensuring purity by killing Shias and Qadianis and barely tolerate the Ismailis because they bring in so much money. Why don`t you consider changing the name of your country to `The A$$hole of Saudi Arabia`?

re: dost-mittar

``But Pakistan is no pushover; man to man, the Pakistani soldier, I believe, is more motivated (it`s the jehadi spirit, stupid!) than his Indian counterpart.``

SSA. The Pakistani soldier will fight well as always if led properly - I don`t think its the jehadi spirit :-) You ought to know what makes him fight or run - for the most part he is your blood brother and the Pathans don`t need any introduction.

There is`nt giong to be any war - both countries can`t afford it. This is an old Indian strategy of building forces and creating a panic in the world community. The pressure is usually applied on Pakistan and it usually works (except maybe during Brasstacks) - That is why you see the Pakistanis acting in a relatively cool & calm manner. I am not sure if this is such a great strategy - any screwup (hamidm`s trigger-happy subedar major for one) can result in a fiasco - Indian leadership is acting in a most immature manner. I don`t think these guys have any idea about the devastating effects of Nuclear weapons.

``Lets just go to war with these two bit pakistan. Someone has to let them know that they think too much of themselves even after losing three wars.``

Of all the Indian interactors, Joe makes the most sense. That`s the only way to go - its sickening to see all these guys coming on the tv acting like little sissys and mazlooms begging for sympathy. What`s all that army doing at the borders. That previous moral outrage bit was a much better drama with Advani shouting and screaming as if he`s got a Ghauri up his rear. I think you are right, Georgie boy can take care of Mushy in a matter of days and he should do it.

- I am very certain that these tin can generals

are leading us to disaster. The military industrial complex in India and Pakistan has to be shut down. So far as our generals are concerned they are more interested in plots and comissions from arms purchases than liberating Kashmir.

Musharraf has proven that the problem between India and Pakistan is because of KASHMIR only, which Indians still are unable to understand !!

why dont they implement UN resolution on it ?!?!?! and ask Kashmiris where they want to be ? They cant because they know what will be result and they wont be able to face it :) They are so afraid that they dont allow international media in Kashmir because they know then the world would know about the atrocities committed by them.

Why is Vajpayee unwilling to meet Musharraf at SAARC or anywhere, maybe he is afraid that he will again be shown to the whole world (like in Agrah) how stupid he is :) which will have a negative impact for BJP in UP elections ... chchchchchch

Oh I forgot yesterday there was another land mine explosion, comeon u Indians cant equip ur army properly always getting KickBacks and buying cheap stuff. I am looking forward to when Nukes explode within India, before they are even fired :) Indian Army should check as they might have even purchased empty cartridges for their ammunition, thanx to Mr. Fernandez wisdom :)

Then there is India who is always trying to compete with Pakistan ..... even stopped playing cricket as they were sick of loosing all the time :) chchchch Compare the size and Population between the two countries, which shows the mentality of Indians that they are chicken S#$@ ..... They cant fight with bigger countries .... NAH they can`t because mentally they are much smaller and always trying to fight with neighbours. Where as Pakistan is totally opposite, they stand on principles and want peace with our neighbours, and as Musharraf reiterated yesterday, we want peace with our neighbours, and if war is imposed upon us then we are ready for it and give a befitting response.

So wake up Indians, Pakistan is not like Palestine who are unable to defend themselves against the atrocities of Israel.

A small question from Indians, why havent u guys changed the name of ur country to Hindustan, as thats what it should be called and as a lot of cities have been changed recently like Bombay, Calcutta etc ... and why do u have so many names for ur country is it Baharat, Hindustan, India ..... atleast try to call ur country with ONE name !! be united on ONE point, which is impossible i guess :)

Regards,

Asim

True nature of paki men

from dawn of today

Very silly rules

By Karachian

One good thing about Karachi`s Defence is that unlike the one in Lahore young single men can go to many parks without being asked to wear trousers or track suit bottoms or being turned away because they are single. Yes, in case people did not know, there are quite a few parks in Lahore where if you go wearing shorts - I mean what else would you wear if you were to go running - the guards at the gate will turn you away.

Incidentally, many parks in Clifton and Defence do not have this absurd condition - imposed in Lahore apparently because, the Defence Housing Authority in its infinite wisdom there decided that men in shorts were `outraging the modesty` of the female visitors - but had modified it to require all young men to wear shorts that reach at least their knees.

hamidm #226
`` this one exchange between you and i proves the intractable differences between the two people``
Maybe you are right. I cannot see the Parliament attack as a `silly` one which India can ignore, try as I might even for Pakistani chowkwallahs sakes.

``there is no room from compromise and shouting at each other we are headed for disaster``
Actually there may be room and maybe we are not headed for disaster. I do believe India doesnot really mean to go to war(oops there goes our bargaining chip) and it seems Musharraf is taking some action against some jihadi leaders.

``like i said before it won`t be a major loss for mankind ``
I`ll try not to take this statement personally

Field Marshall Romair, Reservist Urstruly, Toilet Cleaner ali1, and Draft Dodger hamidm:

Report for duty. On the double. Now!!

...And make sure ali1 does not pass on his latrine duties to POW anarayan again.

The anarayan, ali1 ``dialogue`` aka

The War of the Toilet Paper Tigers.

suxena #203,

what did i say? it wasn`t nasty at all.

Re: Romair

``...Is India willing to sign such an (extradition) treaty? ...``

I am 100% sure that India is -- but it does not sit well with Musharraf`s Kashmir (and only Kashmri) First Agenda.

Re: Romair

``...Just heard the Indian law minister on CNN. He made one statement which I found interesting, i.e.: Pakistan has killed 61,000 Indian civilians in Kashmir, through cross-border terrorism...blah...blah...blah...``

Romair, this is what the `Indian law minister` said on CNN:

``...the number of people who have been killed on our side of the border, in our country, in the last 10 to 15 years is as high as 61,000 civilians...``

Notice -- he did not say Kashmir. But since your keen and highly articulated sense of hearing can hear nothing else after years of listening to every newscast, that is not exactly what you heard. You heard what you wanted to hear, not necessarily what was said.

Don`t believe me, read the CNN transcript:

http://asia.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0112/30/le.00.html

Now, `our side of the border` includes Kashmir AND PUNJAB. And, you know, that it took FENCING THE PUNJAB BORDER with Pakistan to bring a semblance of normalcy back to the state. I think that over 40,000 people (civilians alone) were killed there in over 10 years of insurgency in which the ISI can claim many successes.

So, now -- while you are entitled to you opinion, you are not entitled to your facts. Scurry along now, get the right facts, and then come back here again. Prove to us that you have done your homework.

would one of the pakistanis please answer this...i blow up a part of your house, and you decide to retaliate...but all of a sudden i whine and cry about wanting peace and claim that you are the aggressor in wanting to retaliate...does that make any goddamn sense? you people must think the world is stupid.

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...man to man, the Pakistani soldier, I believe, is more motivated (it`s the jehadi spirit, stupid!) than his Indian counterpart...``

This is what the Rand corporation has to say about the Pakistani performance in Kargil:

``(Pakistani) Interlocutors … held this… view —often against the weight of evidence—that the Pakistani Army’s operational performance at Kargil was flawless, and they in-variably concluded that the Army’s attainment of strategic surprise at Kargil was in effect synonymous with the achievement of victory in the campaign writ large. Since those who hold this view entirely neglect the fact that the Indian Army, once mobilized, redeployed, and committed to eviction operations, actually secured repeated tactical victories—often against great odds—throughout the concluding half of the Kargil campaign, they continue to claim that Kargil must be chalked up as an operational victory for the Pakistani Army…blah…blah…blah…``

Re: Hamidm

If you don`t mind taking the trouble to find out how correct your assessment is as it pertains to the current Parliament attack fiasco, read the following extract from Chapter 2 of the Rand report:

``INDIA REALIZES THAT INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION TO PAKISTANI ADVENTURISM CAN BE POSITIVE``

``The various statements made by the international community were highly sympathetic to India’s position during the Kargil crisis, a condition that India appreciated. A reading of the Indian op-ed pages of major English-language papers suggests that India may have concluded that select types of international attention can be beneficial in some contexts, particularly when focused on Pakistani misdeeds.``

sadna

...... i rest my case - this one exchange between you and i proves the intractable differences between the two people ...... there is no room from compromise and shouting at each other we are headed for disaster .... like i said before it won`t be a major loss for mankind

Re: Romair

``...Just heard the Indian law minister on CNN. (followed by 1000 words of the usual ramblings)...``

OUCH! That must have hurt! The media blitz is going to grow louder...Musharraf had better keep the elections on schedule now!

Re: Hamidm

``...only this time india is being devilishly opportunistic...and i must admit it is very clever ...it seems to be working to some extent - our parents always told us the muslaa was no match for the cunning bania when it comes to politics or business...``

Hamidm, you are in august company. The Rand Corporation agrees with you assessment:

``India understands that the most likely strategy for Pakistan will be increasing its support for insurgency and for terrorist attacks throughout India. New Delhi also appreciates that this strategy is to Pakistan’s own disadvantage and further confirms Islamabad as a sponsor of Islamist terrorism. Despite the episodic temptation to bloody the Pakistani nose, India will continue to exhibit restraint.``

From `Limited Conflict Under the Nuclear Umbrella: Indian and Pakistani Lessons from the Kargil Crisis`

http://www.rand.org/publications/MR/MR1450/

shammisahab

``Last I heard, Indian TV channels have been banned throughout Pakistan. PTV is still being shown in India.``

i saw/heard on zee news 3 days ago that they had banned ptv in a place which had a funny name...we were getting all indian channels till day before...

my khalas have all gone hysterical...kabhi saas bhi bahoo thee something and ghar ghar kee kahani is like their life line..im not joikng, the second youngest and stupidest was almost close to tears...they are now having the family in india tape all the episodes they might miss

hamidm:

i could kiss you!

Re: Hamidm

``...attacks on government buildings are not uncommon...``

It is not just ANY government building, it is THE government building. BTW, the last time anyone `attacked` it was Bhagat Singh (in 1931?) with a smoke bomb (it was not even packed with explosives) from the visitor`s gallery. We all know what the British did to him.

Re: Romair

``...Just like the US opened up ground zero to the world media. If the US had not shown a single picture of the WTC, would anyone have believed its statements?)...``

So you mean that showing the damage to the Parliament, and to the J&K Assembly before that (for which JeM made a claim or responsibility) would be enough `evidence`? So, showing pictures of damaged buildings and dead bodies is enough? If it is, then have you not watched TV lately? Have you not watched the gun battle outside the Parliament? But, you are still not convinced. Will you ever be?

soysauce #212
`` First off congrats on the award that Jay has confered on you ``

Thanks, but to be honest I didnot quite understand Jay`s citation :)
For the rest, I agree with you though I wish Indians had a clearer picture from Pakistanis of whats the real internal situation and what are the real internal pressures on Musharraf?

hamidm #215
`` it is inconcievable that we will let the indians march into lahore without using all possible measures .....``

I havenot heard a single Indian statement which talks of marching into Lahore. Infact Defense Minister George Fernandes said something like Pakistan reinforced its positions along the Rajasthan border very soon after the attack, even before India had made any moves at all. India is indicating its willingness to ignore the world`s alarmism, thats all, in my belief.

``i think i watched the same show and i did not hear the pakistani fm say anything of the sort - he simply reiterated pakistan`s stated policy on the use of nuclear weapons as a measure of last resort``

Yes, its the question of what is the last resort according to Pakistanis? Having to crack down on PAKISTANI religious extremists fighting in INDIA is the last resort, it seems. What on earth prevents the Pakistani government from giving even private assurances to India on further jihadi attacks if its so innocent?

`` it is evident that india is trying to use this attack on the parliament to try and settle the kashmir issue unilaterally .... ``

I can also say ``Destroying the Indian government is Pakistan`s way of settling the kashmir issue unilaterally, its evident to all Indians esp. after two attacks in N. Delhi``. Either Pakistanis can wage jihad in India or have peace with India, take your pick of only one. Hypocrisy and ambiguity is not helping matters.

`` in the subcontinent five or ten dead people, political assasinations and attacks on government buildings are not uncommon``

Which common incidents? We donot scale walls and take over the country in bloodless coups and call it all in a days work(I donot think even ordinary Pakistanis do).
If a Kashmiri or any other disgruntled Indian wants to blow up his OWN country`s Parliament or kill his OWN country`s leaders in India`s capital, thats his business. For Pakistanis to do so, under orders from Pakistani organisations, under protection of the Pakistani military government is another matter entirely. Kindly take note of the difference, Indians have already done so.

For Pakistan to use its nuclear arsenal as excuse to urge India to do nothing about such attacks, but demand peace talks instead, is the icing after taking the cake.

``only this time india is being devilishly opportunistic and thinks it can use the current climate to satisfy its territorial ambitions, and i must admit it is very clever ``

And if Pakistan`s Kashmir policy is proving counterproductive, why is it India`s problem?

And why arenot Pakistanis interested in a `just` solution for Kashmir pondering on this : if the jihadis didnot even have the good sense to wait until the atmosphere or climate was more conducive for such an attack to have the desired effect(which it never would), why is Pakistan depending on such stupid thickheaded misguided people for success in its Kashmir policy? Why is the Pakistani government willing to go to war for them ?

``our parents always told us the muslaa was no match for the cunning bania when it comes to politics or business .........``

Its pretty stupid to expect India to say OK come attack our Parliament and we will say and do nothing because you have nuclear weapons and we are poor. And its interesting that the fighting spirit of Muslims(which all Pakistanis claim to be) is called fighting spirit and the fighting spirit of horrible hindus is called cunning. Very Kiplingesque. I think the mythology of Ganesha the elephant-headed god is a safer one to subscribe to.

btw, there were Muslim MPs too, in parliament. I doubt the attackers would have enquired who was what before shooting them dead. I hope ALL Indian MPs feel a LITTLE ashamed that 8 brave Indians died doing their duty so that these same MPs can continue to throw chairs, give out petrol agencies as favors and engineer riots without Pakistani generals and Pakistani religious zealots having any say in the matter.

``or reasons other than the silly attack in delhi, i do think pakistan should hand over the LeT and JeT leaderhip to india,``

I donot think India is demanding that Pakistan hand over the LeT and JeT leadership. I think India is demanding that the Pakistani government take action on its own and give some sign that its making a clean break with this style of doing business, namely letting unemployed religious fanatics target Indian establishments and institutions while protesting they want to talk peace. This half-and-half willnot work. There has to be some sign that Hamid Gul`s and Javed Nasir`s security philosophy of the dismembering of India and fighting for Islam is being disowned by the Pakistani military establishment.

If there is no such sign and India still shows willingness to talk peace, I have read enough jang.com.pk to bet that the crazies who are Pakistani thinkers and planners will take it that India is too weak to resist Hamid Gul`s brilliant tactics.

Unfortunately, I donot think we are going to see such a sign.

someone-give-me-water-ali1,

``There is another glorious Arab tradition that we will follow: make the conquered Hindus our slaves and have them lick it clean......``

Well said!

A commendable job you did too, my dear ex-hindu...on Osama and his arab friends. Arab crap-pakistani clean. Traditional Pakistani hospitality!

We`ll try and ease your `burden` a bit. In about 3 months time...you can use your pakistani passport as a wipe. Won`t be good for anything else by then.

best and `clean` regards,

re: Romair

``...India states Pakistan is involved in the attack on the Indian parliament, yet it is unwilling to justify it by providing proof...``

Is this coming from the same person who just a few months ago was regaling us with stories right here on Chowk about meeting young, educated, middle-class Pakistani men in Lahore who had recently returned from their murderous expeditions into India, and who had `entertained` him with stories about their exploits? And you have the gall to ask for proof?

sadna

``1. Pakistani government official going on world television threatening a nuclear attack to wipe out hundreds of thousands of ordinary Indians, simply to avoid taking comprehensive action against Pakistani religious extremists, which is all that India is demanding. ``

.......i think i watched the same show and i did not hear the pakistani fm say anything of the sort - he simply reiterated pakistan`s stated policy on the use of nuclear weapons as a measure of last resort - and that makes perfect sense to all pakistanis .... it is inconcievable that we will let the indians march into lahore without using all possible measures ..... he categorically stated that pakistan did not want any kind of conventioinal or non-conventional war and that should be sufficient for anyone who is willing to listen - evidently, india is not and is hell bent on brinkmanship .........

....... even for someone like me who doesn`t give two hoots about kashmir, it is evident that india is trying to use this attack on the parliament to try and settle the kashmir issue unilaterally .... in the subcontinent five or ten dead people, political assasinations and attacks on government buildings are not uncommon - only this time india is being devilishly opportunistic and thinks it can use the current climate to satisfy its territorial ambitions, and i must admit it is very clever ..... even though a man in dhoti looks silly trying to use israeli language, it seems to be working to some extent - our parents always told us the muslaa was no match for the cunning bania when it comes to politics or business .........

....... for reasons other than the silly attack in delhi, i do think pakistan should hand over the LeT and JeT leaderhip to india, but i doubt if that will calm down the raging testosterone ( and i thought vegetables were good for you !)..... i am afraid that even if we dodge the bullet this time, the subcontinent is headed for a nuclear disaster and it really won`t matter who pushed the button first ...... mankind survived the death of fifty million people in WW-II, it will survive the death of a few million miserable savages in the sub-continent ..........

Reply # 187 dost-mittar

Another load of condescending garbage from dost mittar as usual.

[India now has Musharraf where she wants it; he may like it or not but he has no choice but to crack down on these jehadis or face America`s wrath, not to speak of a war that he doesn`t want.]

I wonder if Indians know how pathetic they sound when they try to scare Pakistanis of America`s ``wrath``. (it works though, it scares the chickenshit out of dumbasses and drunkards like tahmed and hamidm). I feel that Indians just want to delude themselves that America would go to war with Pakistan on their behalf.

America`s wrath now would be a phone call per day and probably a visit by Richard Amritage a la Strobe Talbott`s visit in 1998. If Nawaz Sharif the cactus could withstand that, I am sure Mush can do that too.

[Vajpayee should agree to meet Musharraf in Kathmandu and get a confirmation of this commitment and an action plan on how he plans to deal with these jehadis.]

Bagpipe should expect the middle finger from Musharraf. Musharraf will lose my respect and also of other Pakistanis if he gives an inch to India on Kashmir. The above conversation can only take place if India has already won the war with Pakistan, which it won`t.

[``Pakistan is no pushover; man to man, the Pakistani soldier, I believe, is more motivated (it`s the jehadi spirit, stupid!) than his Indian counterpart. Moreover, we never hear from Pakistan incidents of insubordination in the army, planes crashing and fires in ordnance depots that we routinely read about in India - signs of an army at less than peak efficiency. Even the civilian population in Pakistan seems to be more motivated - all the incidents of civilians fleeing from border villages seem to be coming from India.``]

DEAR PAKISTANIS......

This is a despicable attempt to dehumanize Pakistanis and paint Pakistan as a nation of 140 million jehadi fanatics. Be very careful when you hear an Indian say this, he is definitely no dost-mittar of Pakistan and Pakistanis.

Pakistani soldiers and civilians are human beings, they get scared in the face of death, they get hurt when hit by munitions, they feel sad when their loved ones die. Like all other human beings, they will retaliate in the face of aggression.

[``India has now the sympathy of the rest of the world as its outrage has paid rich political dividends. India will lose all the goodwill it has garnered if it launches an attack on Pakistan.``]

Rest of the world will see India was a nation bent upon belligerency in the face of Pakistani pleas for peace.

Read this at http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011230/wl/india_pakistan_dc_37.html

Pakistan Seeks Peace; India Backed for Action

NEW DELHI/ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan said on Sunday it wanted peace with India but was worried by its neighbor`s mounting military build-up as the Indian government won wide political backing for any action.

Reply # 187 dost-mittar

Another load of condescending garbage from dost mittar as usual.

[India now has Musharraf where she wants it; he may like it or not but he has no choice but to crack down on these jehadis or face America`s wrath, not to speak of a war that he doesn`t want.]

I wonder if Indians know how pathetic they sound when they try to scare Pakistanis of America`s ``wrath``. (it works though, it scares the chickenshit out of dumbasses and drunkards like tahmed and hamidm). I feel that Indians just want to delude themselves that America would go to war with Pakistan on their behalf.

America`s wrath now would be a phone call per day and probably a visit by Richard Amritage a la Strobe Talbott`s visit in 1998. If Nawaz Sharif the cactus could withstand that, I am sure Mush can do that too.

[Vajpayee should agree to meet Musharraf in Kathmandu and get a confirmation of this commitment and an action plan on how he plans to deal with these jehadis.]

Bagpipe should expect the middle finger from Musharraf. Musharraf will lose my respect and also of other Pakistanis if he gives an inch to India on Kashmir. The above conversation can only take place if India has already won the war with Pakistan, which it won`t.

[``Pakistan is no pushover; man to man, the Pakistani soldier, I believe, is more motivated (it`s the jehadi spirit, stupid!) than his Indian counterpart. Moreover, we never hear from Pakistan incidents of insubordination in the army, planes crashing and fires in ordnance depots that we routinely read about in India - signs of an army at less than peak efficiency. Even the civilian population in Pakistan seems to be more motivated - all the incidents of civilians fleeing from border villages seem to be coming from India.``]

DEAR PAKISTANIS......

This is a despicable attempt to dehumanize Pakistanis and paint Pakistan as a nation of 140 million jehadi fanatics. Be very careful when you hear an Indian say this, he is definitely no dost-mittar of Pakistan and Pakistanis.

Pakistani soldiers and civilians are human beings, they get scared in the face of death, they get hurt when hit by munitions, they feel sad when their loved ones die. Like all other human beings, they will retaliate in the face of aggression.

[``India has now the sympathy of the rest of the world as its outrage has paid rich political dividends. India will lose all the goodwill it has garnered if it launches an attack on Pakistan.``]

Rest of the world will see India was a nation bent upon belligerency in the face of Pakistani pleas for peace.

Read this at http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011230/wl/india_pakistan_dc_37.html

Pakistan Seeks Peace; India Backed for Action

NEW DELHI/ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan said on Sunday it wanted peace with India but was worried by its neighbor`s mounting military build-up as the Indian government won wide political backing for any action.

#206 Sadhana

First off congrats on the award that Jay has confered on you :)

Second, you make a lot of good points. It is indeed possible that Gen. Mushy is caught between the jihadis and the indian ire and all the hot air is an attempt to avoid a coup. (He should know what awaits him should he tamper with the carefully constructed low-cost low-intensity war strategy in kashmir since he was at the giving end last time round) But how can india target the jihadis and their army handlers specifically? Mushy has also not helped himself by putting kashmir above all else. This was to be his legacy. I say the hell with him. Let the hawks take over. Then there will be no ambiguity as to what ought to be done.

I am pleased as punch that india has been put into the position of facing up to the reality that there has indeed been a war going on sponsored by pak. Let`s hope that those in charge know how to execute and not just talk.

unkaljay:

``A mechanical net nanny award to punch anNy when she uses, ji, unkal etc``

i love you very much also

kisses,

anNy

p.s: all suffixes and prefixes (sp?) used are to accord respect or maintain protocol save unkal... when i say that, i`m making fun of you

ali, would you be willing to participate in a study evaulating the impact of cousin-marriages in pakistan? there may be cash available, or a private evening with david roberts, the professor...or access to 10 fresh, young madrassah boys from pakistan.

re: ali born to cousin at heera mandi

untested hypothesis? dude, go ask your grandpop`s generation from 1971 (at least the 90,000 of them who surrendered to india) about that.

Re: Romair

``...For example, India continues to ... banning...media...``

Last I heard, Indian TV channels have been banned throughout Pakistan. PTV is still being shown in India. So, are you suggesting that in order to figure out who was behind the Parliament bombing, India and Pakistan should first begin by `unbanning` the media?

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...India now has Musharraf where she wants it; he may like it or not but he has no choice but to crack down on these jehadis or face America`s wrath, not to speak of a war that he doesn`t want...``

What if Musharraf decides to ignore both America and India? Are you certain that he will crack down on the Let/JeM? But, if as you say, he will -- then I agree with you -- India should give him room, and avoid war. If diplomacy succeeds, then wisdom lies in utilizing it. I just read on Dawn, that Musharraf is sending political feelers to BB in Dubai. I don`t want to be overly critical of a man who is now on the hot spot, but one does feel that he should not have broken all bridges with the political opposition in Pakistan. He probably needs her and her party now to come out in opposition of the militant groups, so that he can crack down on them. Perhaps, the Americans are leaning on him.

Re: Tahmed321

``...South Asians may end up learning the hard way how terrible it is...``

I had once mentioned to you that India/Pakistan will have to go through the horrors of WWI and WW2 (just like France and Germany) before better sense prevails (we sort of did go through this in the Partition, but apparently that shock was not enough). Today, France and Germany (having killed over 20 million+ of each other`s countrymen in the 20th century alone) are on their way to a civilized European Union. Alsace and Lorraine were as divisive once as Kashmir is today. But, they would not have reached where they are today without the monstrosities of the two wars, and without Pax Americana. Your prescription (Option A) is reasonable, but what if Musharraf pays no heed? What is India and the international community to do?

Re: Romair

``...It seems like Vajpayee has now lost power amongst the senior ranks of BJP...``

Rather than waste time and speculate on his political viability for which there is a (yet undemolished) Parliament in which the entire Opposition has backed Vajpayee to the hilt, and election cycles, I would worry more about the role of the JeM, LeT and the ISI in all this. Musharraf may not have know about the attack on the Parliament, but he cannot absolve himself of his responsibility. This is not a matter of political debate anymore -- it is a criminal act. The State Dept. designation of LeT/JeM and FTOs is about as equivocal as it can be. The world is not going to accept any violence for political ends anymore. Sept. 11 changed all that. And neither will India. Your attempts to link criminal acts with political causes is not going to be received well in Western capitals.

Re: Anarayan

``...How come you know all these choti-moti gullies in Delhi...``

Years of living in Delhi, and travelling by every conceivable mode of transport. Also, an abiding curiosity in the history of that wonderful city. Did you know that Rajpath used to be called Kings Way, and Janpath Queens Way? That Kingsway Camp was the location of the tent city built to house the native Indian Kings and Princes for the Delhi Durbar of 1911?

Things that mystify:
1. Pakistani government official going on world television threatening a nuclear attack to wipe out hundreds of thousands of ordinary Indians, simply to avoid taking comprehensive action against Pakistani religious extremists, which is all that India is demanding.

2. Pakistani government complaining to the world about Indian war mongering even though it was the Indian Parliament which was attacked by Pakistanis.

Which idiot Pakistani planner thinks all this makes good sense for the Pakistani people ?

And which country thinks it solves any problems to twiddle its thumbs and hum a tune after an attack on its Parliament by foreign nationals?

As far as Indians go, either the Parliament attack was engineered by rogue organizations and groups in Pakistan, which means the Pakistani government was AGAINST such an attack, in which case insisting on action against these rogue elements makes sense (as India has been doing for many months). The alternative is strengthening these groups through inaction both in India and Pakistan, as happened after previous attacks including the IC-814 hijacking. Do we really need more such attacks?

Or the Parliament attack was engineered by those with considerable influence in the Pakistani government, which means there is enough support within the Pakistani government for destroying the Indian government. Which makes the attack an act of war and why wait for more such attacks?

The choice of which it is with the Pakistani government. Similar choices have confronted them earlier too. I wish for example, Dawood Ibrahim hadnot left Pakistan for a week during the Agra Summit while Musharraf was gaving his personal word that Dawood was not in Pakistan. Things would have been vastly different if Musharraf had cultivated a little personal credibility, Dawood`s connections in India are surely not indispensable or worth the loss of personal credibility to Musharraf.

I agree though, ordinary Pakistanis and Indians suffer even when war is only threatened, but why would doing nothing improve the situation?

Reply # 195 RSaxena

[re: ali the eunuch

and then india can recreate another proud tradition....]

RSaxena, now don`t get jealous. I can accept you as my personal cleanser in case of Indus water drying up.

Reply # 188 RSaxena devdasi ke

[``If you had a full war between India and Pakistan, not just skirmishes on the border ... India would start winning,`` said former US ambasador Dennis Kux, who has served in both India and Pakistan. And at a certain point Pakistan, rather than going under, would push the button,`` he said, appearing on CNN`s ``The Capital Gang`` show]

Stephen Cohen appearing on Talk of the Nation on NPR said that India`s conventional superiority over Pakistan is at best an untested hypothesis.

Dude, if you and other Indians are so sure of a conventional victory, why dont you ask your baap bagpipe to start the war?

re: scout

{even if an Indian spokesperson had two fingers up his nose, you`d call him `eloquent and effective.`

such is the blind Indian nationalism your countrymen and yourself engage in.}

did you see him do that? on what channel? come on scout aunty, the holidays aren`t over...be nice (note, i`ve said nothing nasty to you in weeks)

..... based on an informal survey of people in pakistan, it seems nobody is spoiling for a fight but everyone is convinced that india will push it over the brink and that pakistan will have to push the button .....contrary to what urstruly`s relatives are doing, no one is digging trenches - maybe because they are smarter and understand that trenches do not provide protection against radiation ...... my informal survey included three serving senior officers in the army and airforce, one retired general, a latter-day hippy who regularly organizes marches to save the shisham tree, two business men who have dedicated their lives to making money and a number of women who are convinced that testosterone is to blame ( although looking at vijpayee and advani it is hard to imagine they ever had any ) .........

........ anyway, everyone seems to be convinced that war is inevitable and is upset at me out for not having produced a male offspring to carry on the family name in the land of the free after the last male m is incinerated in the motherland ...... now that is a heavy burden to carry ......imagine a world without m`s and dots ........

dear expaks...... this is good time to buy shares on kse. YOU help yourself buying good pak stocks and PAKISTAN also.

So expaks help pak by buying shares. Good for everybody ok

Just heard the Indian law minister on CNN. He made one statement which I found interesting, i.e.:

Pakistan has killed 61,000 Indian civilians in Kashmir, through cross-border terrorism.

Many Indians had stated, on this site, that the death figures of Kashmiris given by Pakistanis, Kashmiris, BBC etc. were exagerated. Meaning that the number of deaths in Kashmir was actually not that high. I had stated, two years ago, the figure was between 33,000 (as reported by BBC) and 70,000 as reported by the Kashmiris.

It is good to see that India has finally accepted the fact that 61,000 civilians have been killed in Kashmir. I hope no Indian will doubt this fact any longer.

Now it is only a question of establishing who has killed these civilians. Is it the 500,000 to 700,000 Indian military in Kashmir (the highest no of soldiers per sq. ft anywhere in the world; 1 soldier for ever 6 to 9 Kashmiri civlians), or is it the Pakistanis who cross the LOC to assist the Kashmiri freedom movement. The easy way to find this out would be to allow international human rights organizations access to IOK, just like they have access to POK. But that is too violent a solution, according to our Indian colleagues.

So lets take a different approach. 61,000 is more than all the Indians that have been killed by Pakistani Army in all the wars combined. How exactly could a few Pakistani (lets say a few hundred at most) cross into Kashmir and kill 61,000 civilians; specially if those civilians had the protection of 500,000 plus Indian soldiers. If this were the case, wouldn`t the APHC condemn Pakistan, instead of supporting it. If Indians crossed into Lahore and killed 61,000 Lahori civilians, would the Lahoris condemn India or would they support India?

If the Indian law minister`s statement is correct, then I think he should immediately call for a plebescite in IOK. The Kashmiris after having seen 61,000 of their civilian colleagues (actually my colleagues also, since my family hails from Srinigar; my parents generation all being born there) killed by the Pakistan govt. sponsored terrorists, would without a doubt, vote to not only join India, but to destroy Pakistan. If the BJP sitting in Delhi can hate Pakistan so much as to declare war, for killing 61,000 Kashmiris, one would think the Kashmiris themselves would hate Pakistan even more.

India would thus easily win the plebescite. Kashmir would no longer be disputed territory. And Pakistan would have egg on its face. And the Kashmiris would be happy. Now why in the world doesn`t India do so, when it can openly come on CNN and state that Pakistanis have killed 61,000 of its Kashmiris?

P.S. It is one thing to kill tens of thousands of Kashmiris. It is even more sad to see the Indian govt., after killing these civilians, use their deaths to justify an attack against Pakistan. Is it still a surprise to the Indians, that Kashmiris want independence?

cemendtaur #187: Its good to see you back.

I have been suggesting what you suggested in your reply for ages. But apparently, our Indian contributors, on this site, consider such suggestions too violent. A more peaceful approach is to continue to call Pakistan a terrorist nation, not provide any proof, and then attack Pakistan. What happens after that, is of course, not important at all, because India will just run over Pakistan. Perhaps many of the Indians` views are hardened by Pakistani cynics on this site, whose hatred for anything religious (extremist or non-extremist) and anything to do with the Army (good or bad) is so intense, that they would readily welcome Indian forces into Pakistan. However, Indians need to realize that such a group is an extremely small minority in Pakistan. They are like the people who live in America, yet want it destroyed, because they hate Clinton or the Christian Coalition. These Pakistani groups do however indicate that Pakistanis are looking at all aspects of Pakistan`s policies, which is a healthy sign.

India needs to take the following steps, if it is convinced they are right, and it will have Pakistan cornered in no time:

1) Establish what is actually going in Kashmir: (it should do this by allowing internationally recognized human rights organizations complete access to its portion of Kashmir. Let them talk to the people, etc. and then submit a detailed report of how the Pakistanis are torchering the local Indian Kashmiri population). This will end the game of he said, she said, and we will have a clear picture of whose description is right or wrong.

2) Allow the whole world to see what Pakistan is doing in IOK (it should do this by, lifting the ban, and opening up Kashmir completely to the international media. Just like the US opened up ground zero to the world media. If the US had not shown a single picture of the WTC, would anyone have believed its statements?). The international media will then give a balanced view of the whole situation.

3) Take all its complains against Pakistan to the UN (it should do this by creating a case against Pakistan, under the UN resolutions on terrorism, which both India and Pakistan supported. The whole world will then be behind India`s efforts to solve its problems). This case should include the current attacks on the Indian parliament.

4) The UN will then take the standard action, for which it is designed (it will do this by creating new resolutions or ask for the implementation of resolutions between India and Pakistan. It will pass on all the legal cases to the ICJ).

5) The ICJ will take a decision on the current attacks on the Indian parliament (these were terrorist acts, but so far only India knows who carried them out, and it is not letting out the evidence)

6) Pakistan (and India) should then accept the decisions by the UN and ICJ peacefully. Pakistan will not be able to ignore these decisions, like India has been ignoring them for fifty years.

This is the peaceful solution which I have been proposing, and which most Indians on this site seem to hate, for some reason. India needs to get out of its tendency of blaming Pakistan, not justifying its blame, and attempting to pressurise the world (and now Pakistan) into acceptance. For example, India continues to blame everything in Kashmir on Pakistan, yet it is unwilling to justify its claims there by holding a plebescite or by banning international organizations and media. It states Pakistan is involved in the attack on the Indian parliament, yet it is unwilling to justify it by providing proof, or taking the matter to the ICJ. It will not accept Pakistan`s word at face value, yet it wants Pakistan to accept India`s word at face value, otherwise it will go to war. This is illogical, illegal and dangerous.

hamidm #177 I am glad someone appreciates the thought of handing over LeT/JeM to India to stand trial as common criminals. This way all the nutcases in the subcontinent would be in India (either behind bars, in case of the aforementioned exports from Pakistan, or outside bars, as in case of their own saffron colored nuts), and Pakistanis can focus on improving their economy, NABbing corrupt officials (no better sight than ex-generals and admirals pleading to be allowed to hand back their ill-gotten wealth), improving their cricket skills.

You suggest we hand over Samiul Haq and Fazlurrahman to the US al-Qaeda members. Good idea - the food being given in prison to these two fat goats could then be enough to feed a dozen hungry street kids in Pakistan.

Here`s another thought: Eliminate once and for all the ideological basis on which these people have tried to take over Pakistan society. This is done by separating state and religion. - This separation of state and religion is fully consistent with the basic message of the Quran which has been conveniently replaced by these power seekers with the self-serving message of Maudoodi that dragged religion into politics to begin with.

suxena #189,

even if an Indian spokesperson had two fingers up his nose, you`d call him `eloquent and effective.`

such is the blind Indian nationalism your countrymen and yourself engage in.