Running Naked

Happy New Year Everyone!

And especially to chowkies from the other side of the fence: dost-mittar, anarayan and jay.

dost-mittar - you have my vote for the most decent posts.

anarayan - for bringing up interesting topics other than indo-pak bashing, although like a good desi the temptation can be too much at times even for him.

jay - as a fellow fea geek its hard not to like jay.



THE best chowk writer - one & only - hamidm

The award-winning masterpiece:

...... i had a dream ( mashallah ) .... i saw jay riding a jackass chewing ganderis with urstruly leading it; at a dusty crossroad they run into a tall bedouin in flowing robes and a one-eyed man with sunglasses; they greet each other and the tall bedouin asks urstruly, `` brother, who is the stranger riding the jackass`` .......with a reverent glance at jay, urstruly whispers, `` why, my lord, he is the saviour - the mahdi, who has returned to lead us to the promised land``..... ``all right !``, exclaims the one eyed mullah - they give each other high fives, hugs and kisses and dig into the ganderis ....... the jackass watches in amazemant and decides he has had enough - with a bray and a kick of the hind legs he takes off into the desert with the four holy men in hot pursuit .......

(c) 2001 hamidm

Most informative posts from: SameerJB, Fuzair – Paki PhDs who should come home and serve their nation. Supply of beer, etc. would be guaranteed.

Most irritating and meaningless gibberish written by: Sadna Mohajir

Ms. Sadna Mohajir’s favourite words: cross-border terrorism

Her second most favourite word (newly-acquired): dispensation

Ms. Mohajir’s favourite rambling: Go ahead! hate us – I didn’t ask you to stop. Keep hating us!

Most missed chowkwallahs: Truth - Where in the bloody hell are you ol` boy - Hopefully not in that godforsaken place south of Punjab.

And temporal.

Best Poems: Zehra Rizvi

Best Articles: Pervez Hoodbhoy

Most Popular Slogan (by count): ``Imran Khan for PM`` - (God forbid!)

Biggest Nutcase: Asif Naqshbandi

``Peace`` vigil in San Jose:

I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:

1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan. Rest of the people present there were pretending as if they were representing American Indian voices too. They could not even bring any of their Indian friends (if they have any). Carrying the Indian flag they wanted to pretend to passing by people that they were mixture of Indians and Pakis.. This thing was really deceptive.

2. There was not a single mention of terrorism in the placards. As if to say that there is a war to start in South Asia out of blue, may be just because Indians and Pakis hate each other. Basically agenda rather than ``peace`` was ``save pakistan``.

3. I had a poster criticizing ``military dictatorships`` and saying ``Indians and Pakis are one``, I was accused of being ``divisive``, ``anti-peace`` and ``with hidden agenda``. So I guess another agenda was ``save mr. musharraf`` and keep floating the theory that muslim-hindu are separate people.

4. One of the organizer tried to read some crappy article from WPost basically whose import was ``hey Indians are basically Hindus and India-Pak difference is between hindus and muslims..``. When will Pakis start looking at the census figures. Sorry to break the news guys. For decades in India more muslims live than in Pakistan and even so more peacefully than any where, with more democratic rights than anywhere. So please stop giving BS that India-Pak dispute is abt Hindu-Muslim.

5. It seems organizers had special affinity to ``two nation theory``. The basic point was even if a nation is attacked and engaged in proxy wars for years, it should still maintain ``peace``. I Wonder organizers ever called for peace when innocent people get butchered by terrorists. Only when there is talk of retaliation from India, it seems they hear their scared relatives in Pakistan and then come out to talk about ``peace``.

6. Also common goal of meeting organizer was to beg Mr Bush to do some thing about South Asia. This shows how much ``peace`` they can achieve from this Bush the ``messiah of peace``.

Ok guys lick the * *lls of Bush or whoever powerful you can find around the world to save your terrorist regime or jehadi brothers.

But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it. I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected, but we do need to respond to this fascist evil scourge of Jehadism and free our Paki brothers from it too. So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.

Well founder of ``Chowk.com`` was also there. I complemented him on having a great website. Hope he does not completely share the views of rest of the organizers.

Reply to 244 Harimau:

So India was to piss Jinnah and Pakistanis off, then what about Baharat ?!?! who do u want to piss with Baharat ? please enlighten me with ur foolist thoughts :) .... Oh I missed onething maybe Vajpayee and Advani are so pissed off from their own country that they also call their country quite often India and Baharat in their speeches ..... chchchchch ..... It really is funny that u keep the name of ur country to piss someone off ..... always thinking about others, instead of worrying about urself and thinking about urself ...... which is the main difference why India has problems with all the countries around it :)

Atleast we dont call our country Islamistan ..... like u THE MOST SOCALLED SECULAR COUNTRY who calls itself HINDUSTAN !!! the name suggests the ideology behind the nation :)

Then u talk about killing Qadianis .... well when did that happen ?!?! Who told u about Ismailis ?!?! please enlighten us with ur dreams it seems u have started daydreaming alot :)

Btw, we are very much happy with ONE name of our country Pakistan, unlike others who cant decide what they should call themselves :)

Regards,

Asim

Ref Banjaara #: 277

[Hey! what happened to the 150 million muslims

in India:)) ]

Well, according to some Pakistanis they all have no civil rights and as such aren`t full citizens!

I deliberately picked the smaller minorities (Jews number in the few thousands and Parsees in the hundred thousand range today) to show that if they have no problems, a larger minority wouldn`t have a problem.

But why should they take my word when they won`t take Zafar Al-Talib`s or nasah`s or a host of other people`s?

arjun you write ``Let me see..you are comparing Indian universities with pakiland universities? what a joke...``

If you are the product of Indian universities, then the comparison is indeed a joke...you stupid little twit.

chandan #281
``I Wonder organizers ever called for peace when innocent people get butchered by terrorists``

Right on the money. Lets see a single demonstration outside Muridke headquarters of Lashkar-e-Taiba or outside Karachi`s Binori? mosque/madarassa. Lets see one demonstration to protest a gathering where jihad against India is preached.

rajanjua #280
I know this doesnot make you feel better, but I am not the poster mohajir. About the rest, sorry to disappoint, worse things have been said about me on chowk, pl. make a more sincere effort next time.

I dont care abt holocaust... but we do need to respond to this fascist evil scourge of Jehadism.... So yearn for the final war.

Words of wisdom from a brave indian warrior on rr in San Jose. He will soon return to fight the evil Pakis. In the meantime what is the sissy BJP leadership doing? nothing! Just bullshitting - They should listen to their brave, morally outraged, mazloom citizens abroad and attack Pakistan - These pinprick mortar and artillery barrages are irritating - A few of my relatives who had to evacuate from the Rawalakot area (roof caved in due to bombing) told me that everyone is scared of the Indian army - This is the time, I tell you to take care of Pakistan once and for all - aar ya paar as Bagpipe put it. Over to you Joe!

rajanjua # 289

[``This is the time, I tell you to take care of Pakistan once and for all - aar ya paar as Bagpipe put it. Over to you Joe!``]

Raja ji,

Bagpipe is my copyright. The correct usage is:

Chugad Bihari Bagpipe Copyright (c) ali1 2000-2002

My other copyrights are:

dhoti-clads Copyright (c) ali1 1995-2002

bhindidicks Copyright (c) ali1 1999-2002

Bhadwant Singh Copyright (c) ali1 2001-2002

You are authorized to use any/all of these since you come from that village that touches Chaklala Airbase.



Best Regards and a happy new year.

India Cooling Pakistan War Rhetoric

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20020101/wl/india_pakistan_83.html

Seems like the dhoti-clad banyas are running from battle again.... much like what their ancestors have done for the past 5000 years.

Nawz Shariff,Benazir & ASif,Pakistanis wre not the only dishonest people in South Asia.

http://www.rediff.com/money/2001/dec/31mehta3.htm

From clerk to broker, Harshad rose to meteoric



heights

`Big Bull` Harshad Mehta, who passed away early on Monday, rose from an insurance clerk to become one of the most high-profile share brokers till 1992, when the multi-billion-rupee securities scam rocked the stock exchanges in the country with a number of banks and financial institutions facing the heat. Following public outcry, the government set up Janakiraman Committee to probe the scam, which broke out between April 1991 and June 1992. At least 10 commercial banks, including the Standard Chartered Bank, State Bank of India and National Housing Bank, a Reserve Bank of India subsidiary, were hit by the scam. Forty seven-year-old Mehta began his career as a despatch clerk in New India Assurance Company before he transformed the securities market into an active business hub. He then rose to become a stockbroker and strove to drive the market to dizzy heights when economic reforms were slowly being unfolded. He is survived by his wife, two sons and two brothers, Ashwin and Sudhir. Both the brothers are also facing trial in scam cases. According to CBI, he exploited bank receipt instruments to the maximum and used the money derived to speculate the share prices of several blue chip companies. Harshad perfected the art of diverting money to the stock market from bank`s security portfolio by exploiting the loopholes in the system, according to trade circles. He took over closed companies, pumped in cash and boosted their shares on the stock market. After the scam, Harshad was arrested by CBI in several cases registered against him for allegedly cheating banks and financial institutions to the tune of several millions of rupees. He, however, raised a controversy by addressing a press conference along with his lawyer Ram Jethmalani by displaying two suitcases in which he claimed to have paid Rs 10 million donation allegedly to the then Prime Minister Narasimha Rao for the Congress party. Later, a special court ordered a CBI probe into the allegations made by Harshad Mehta that donations of Rs 10 million from the scam money were indeed paid to Congress. Harshad was facing trial in altogether 28 cases but was so far convicted in only one case involving use of Maruti Udyog Ltd funds to the tune of Rs 300 million in the stock market. All other cases are still pending. He was sentenced to five years rigorous imprisonment by justice M S Rane in MUL case although Harshad pleaded that the money had been returned to MUL and the latter saying that it had not lost any amount. He had filed an appeal in the Supreme Court which is still pending. Although Harshad was barred from operating in the market, he offered advice to investors on his website. Harshad had secured bail in all the cases registered against him. However, he was recently arrested on fresh charge of misappropriating Rs 2.50 billion from 2.7 million `missing` shares of 90 blue chip companies. He was placed in judicial custody along with his two brothers, Ashwin and Sudhir till January four. Harshad and Sudhir were lodged in Thane jail eight days ago, while Ashwin was admitted to J J Hospital soon after his arrest for treatment of cardiac problem. Shares belonging to Harshad Mehta group had been attached by a special court. However, Harshad and his brothers claimed that 2.7 million shares held by them were `missing` or `stolen` and could not be located. The court ordered a CBI enquiry into the missing shares. CBI held Harshad and his two brothers responsible for introducing these `missing` shares in the market surreptitiously in benami (fake) names to rig share prices. Accordingly, a case was registered against them. The 1991-92 scam had sent shock waves all over the country and saw many heads rolling. In the wake of the scam, chairman of UCO Bank K M Margbandhu was sacked and arrested. Planning Commission member V Krishnamurthy and SBI managing director V Mahadevan were forced to quit their offices.

Reply # 281 chandan



[``I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:

1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan.``]

I didn`t attend this rally, since I will only attend the one which will be held to celebrate India`s complete annhilation. However, from what I have heard about the vigil, this watery stool pigeon is lying. There were many more Indians than Pakistanis in this vigil.

Chandan, probably you were the only Indian in RSS shorts? Also, dou you think all Indians wear polyester dress pants with chappals?

[``But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it.``]

Everyone expects India behave cowardly because thats your heritage and your history.

[``I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected``]

It seems like you are actually looking forward to the holocaust. So what was the point in going to the ``peace`` vigil, you samosabottom?

[``So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.``]

Why haven`t your chicken hearted cowardly leaders started the ``final`` war yet? Don`t they care for their people`s prosperity? Or are you guys stockpiling on cowdung for the famine ahead?

I dont care abt holocaust... but we do need to respond to this fascist evil scourge of Jehadism.... So yearn for the final war.

Words of wisdom from a brave indian warrior on rr in San Jose. He will soon return to fight the evil Pakis. In the meantime what is the sissy BJP leadership doing? nothing! Just bullshitting - They should listen to their brave, morally outraged, mazloom citizens abroad and attack Pakistan - These pinprick mortar and artillery barrages are irritating - A few of my relatives who had to evacuate from the Rawalakot area (roof caved in due to bombing) told me that everyone is scared of the Indian army - This is the time, I tell you to take care of Pakistan once and for all - aar ya paar as Bagpipe put it. Over to you Joe!



Nice tactics of editing my sentencs and putting statements in my mouth...

This was I said:

I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected...

OK?.. and first of all this war is not against any people. If you want to be in state of denial and want to think that all of Indians are eager for war to get rid of ``evil`` pakis, then its your choice of your own negative thought process. Indian would be more than happy to help brothers across the ``border`` overthrow their fascist military regime and get rid of divisive forces. This is what this war is going to be about.

BTW, re. the bravery of Pakistani soldiers, it was acknowledged by none other than India`s most decorated soldier, Field Marshal Sam Maneckshaw.

Regards.



Sorry bravery also includes being honest about past failures and past lies. It requires being brave to accept the truths. Also bravery means punishing those guilty of raping millions of women during holocaust of 1971.

ras #267

... thanks for the invitation - maybe we will get together one of these days to reminisce about the good old days ...

Re: Dost-Mittar

Sorry for the long post – I am not smart enough to condense complex thoughts in a paragraph. Also, I wish to allay the fears of Pakistani friends – I wish Indo-Pak peace, and a peaceful, mutual coexistence.

“…Shammiji, your post made me nervous…”

Dost – who wouldn’t be nervous? I am – and I have lived through some of the most turbulent years of Punjab terrorism in Delhi. And, I believe that what India has faced for the last two decades is low intensity conflict inspired by the Pakistan military (you’ve heard the Romairs here talk about tying down the Indian army, bleeding India through a thousand cuts, etc.) that is determined to disturb the status quo. I repeat, it is to DISTURB the status quo. I encourage you to read the RAND Corp. report that I cited in my earlier posts to better understand how Pakistan utilizes low-intensity conflict as a matter of state policy. Now, I know that Romair represents a minority Pak opinion on Chowk (and even that of Pakistan proper), but he accurately represents the opinion of the Pak military – and it is they who call the shots, not the person on the street.

I think that we are at an inflection point – if India does not succeed in stemming the growth of terrorism at this time (when global public opinion is mobilized against terror as never before), India may never get the chance again, and the next logical step by the ISI will be to expand it (or allow it to expand) throughout India, especially at industrial and IT centers. Therefore, it is extremely important that this situation be dealt with firmness, and determination. India has given Pakistan the unintended message in the past – our response will always be restrained (e.g.: return of Haji Pir Pass in ’65, no meaningful action on the Western front in ’71, no action during Punjab terrorism, J&K terrorism until Kargil ’99 which was imposed on India anyway, etc.) that has encouraged Pak adventurism. If allowed to go on for long, it may be that in the future, Pakistani adventurism might just succeed or destabilize India (how many times was it that Mohd. Ghazni attacked Prithviraj Chauhan before he finally prevailed?: 16 times? 17?). The losers will be the people of Pakistan and India.

“…This is the kind of thinking upon which disasters are made…”

I agree that what I suggested is not risk-free. But, then what is? What makes you think that the last 2 decades in which over 150,000 people in India may have been wantonly killed have not already been disasters? Are you desensitized by daily reports of a dozen people killed? Indeed, if India does not press home the point at this juncture, the long-term consequences for India’s security will be DISASTROUS. I am not a jingoist, but I believe that British domestic preoccupation in the ‘30s and their refusal to take action against Mussolini when he invaded Ethiopia encouraged the Japanese to march into Manchuria (The British had strong interests in China to protect). British appeasement at Munich, and French indifference to the march of Hitler into the Ruhr, set the stage for WWII. India is faced with similar strategic alternatives.

Also, please note that my rationale for stating so is to change only Pakistan’s policies towards fomenting trouble in India (ie. low-intensity conflict). I am not asking for a regime change or a ‘war of unlimited aims’, although a return of Pakistani democracy may be right tonic for Indo-Pak relations, and for Pakistan itself. I am only asking for what any Indian should rightfully ask. I also believe that while talks can be helpful, they have to be guaranteed by more than just words on parchment. They need to be guaranteed by a regime of carrot and sticks. The carrot should be mutual cooperation, development, less expenditure on military, peace and stability. The stick should be directed towards the Pakistan army/ISI, but not towards the ordinary people of Pakistan. During the current crisis, Musharraf is behaving as any rational person would when faced with global condemnation. He is keeping a low profile – gone is the bravado during Kargil of using the ‘ultimate weapons’ and holding the ‘jehadis by the scruffs of their necks’. Sure, the Hamidm Subedar Major scenario is possible, but you forget that the Indian reaction to the Pak Subedar Major will be completely in India’s control. Both armies are quite disciplined, and India’s army is ‘oppressed’ by the civilians. The Indian army is unlikely to escalate without explicit directions from Delhi. Furthermore, do you want to be so risk averse as to design your policies bearing in mind what a minion might do, even when you know that you might reap dividends at the strategic level? Like I mentioned earlier, India has quietly appreciated the criticism that Pakistani misdeeds have attracted. The Subedar Major scenario (I don’t remember it exactly, but is it more provocative than Kargil?) can also be another one of those --- it depends entirely on the Indian response. Kargil has given enormous confidence to Indian security managers in that (a) they can handle any Pakistani conventional threat even when taken completely by surprise on the most adverse terrain, and (b) Pakistani security managers are susceptible to international pressure

“…Pakistan has already received enough notoriety…”

That is not India’s objective or end goal. It is a means to an objective – ending all Pakistan inspired terror in India. Also note, Pakistani notoriety has not yet translated into Western will or action to stop Pak-inspired terror. So, Pak notoriety, if it falls short of Indian objectives, is meaningless

“…the only thing another spectacular attack will do is to empower the hawks in India…:

And it will further weaken Pakistan’s explanations to the world about ‘freedom struggle’ and ‘terror’. It will also weaken Pakistan’s ability to conduct such operations without attracting worldwide condemnation, and prevent them from expanding them to the rest of India. India can also use such incidents to bring Western pressure on Pakistan to eliminate the jehadi infrastructure. (It is not for nothing that professional armies are preferred over undisciplined, uncontrollable jehadis—and the jehadis make Pakistan policies vulnerable to international opinion). This will be ultimately good for the ordinary Pakistani as well. You have to understand how tenuous Musharraf’s and Pakistan’s position is – the country’s GDP/Debt ratio is exactly that of Argentina’s, while the population is several times as large, and with unsympathetic neighbors. Under this situation, Musharraf (who presumably loves his country) is not about to sign away either his own political viability or Pakistan’s future (which does not lie in sabre-rattling) and an open confrontation with India.

“…What if these pin-pricks result in Pakistan shooting down an Indian plane or two? That could have catastrophic consequences…”

Again, the response is entirely in India’s hands. India can blow it out of proportion, or stay calm (like Kargil), depending upon the situation. The response will be calibrated keeping international public opinion in mind. In any case, India will probably undertake these missions only as punitive actions (ie. having chosen their timing and place) in return for further acts of the low-intensity conflict, as an alternative to sanctions that harm the ordinary Pakistani AND when international public opinion will scorn Pakistani recklessness in not dealing with the jehadis. The idea is that while the military junta may not be very sensitive to the well-being of the ordinary Pakistani, it will be more sensitive to direct attacks on itself, and will be beholden to international opinion (on whom it depends for debt rescheduling).

“…The next step is for Vajpayee to meet Musharraf and agree on a blueprint to stop all terrorist activities AND to seek a permanent settlement for the Kashmir problem…”

Do you think that this is risk-free? Let me state it another way. Do you think that some Pakistan army elements may believe that low-intensity conflict is paying dividends – by bringing India to the table by explicitly linking terror with Kashmir? What if the talks are held, and there is no agreement? What will it do to terror? Also, I would like to remind you that there are elements in the Pakistani Army (Rand Report) who believe that Kargil was a success – the Indian ceasefire of 2000 (according to their flawed reasoning) is a result of Kargil. Thus, even Kargil may not turn out to be last of such conflicts, since apparently not all the lessons that have been learned are correct. Do you think that Lahore was risk free? Indeed, the Lahore Declaration may have been the ‘final straw’ for the Pak army?

Further, do you believe that Musharraf can negotiate with flexibility on Kashmir? Do you think that anyone other than a popularly elected leader can? I am far from convinced on this. That is a big unknown (the bloated Pak army is a beneficiary of Indo-Pak tensions anyway, so why would it allow its corporate interests to be subordinated?). There are strong reasons to believe that any reasonable agreement on Kashmir will require Pakistani ‘concessions’ (ie. LoC is border—anything other than this is never going to be accepted by India). Therefore, it is believed, that the Pak Army will prefer that a civilian government make these ‘concessions’ (the army is not about to get itself discredited), and that can only happen when there are elections first. This is a widely held view in the top echelons of the Indian government. Thus, Musharraf may initiate talks, but they will go nowhere until he can install a civilian government that will need to make the ‘concessions’.

Lastly, the agenda that you propose (agreeing on a blueprint) is perhaps too ambitious for one summit. Not that it is not a noble one – it is. But, I hope that you also recall where Musharraf took the last summit (Agra), and how he used it to anoint himself President, and score media points to bolster himself domestically, rather than negotiate seriously with India.

“…BTW, re. the bravery of Pakistani soldiers, it was acknowledged by none other than India`s most decorated soldier, Field Marshal Sam Maneckshaw….”

I don’t doubt that at all.

Regards, and a Happy New Year to all Chowkies

re: Dost-Mittar

``...just check Hamidm`s post#263 on this thread where he mentions how Pakistani soldiers paractise their bayonets on strawmen dressed as hindus and sikhs ...``

Hamidm could have been kidding about that -- is it for real, Hamidm?