Enough is Enough

Romair,

#7

Sigh...are you listening to what you are saying?! I hope you are, `cause Indian ears have gone deaf. You are still trying to reason with people who are so angry, that they WONT listen. Not today, not tommorrow, they wont listen even if they are falling into the abyss. They will go to their vaporised graves saying ``it was the other guy`s fault``. It DOESNT matter if you think they are wrong or they will eventually lose.

Inshallah, if this crisis subsides, BOTH sides will declare ``moral victory``. Both sides will spin this by quoting foreigners who side with their respective views. Then they will accuse those ``experts`` of the other side of either being discredited or biased or a part of a larger conspiracy.

We will have lively debates on Chowk, in the media, in international diplomatic forums & neither side will budge an inch. This will go on & on until the next crisis erupts. Sooner or later there will be nuclear war in the subcontinent. Everybody knows that. Those who say it wont happen are deluding themselves.

Yeah yeah, the Pakistan military is brave, well trained, well equipped & has ``world famous`` commandos & airmen. They are not the rag-tag Taliban. Even India--esp India--knows that. Otherwise those banias would have attacked YESTERDAY.. So what are you trying to prove? All this means DIDLEY SQUAT. You soldier boys--current & ex-- are playing wargames & the end result is the same--nuclear war! Believe me, the Indian Generals, rusty & ill equipped as they are , also know that. The BJP knows that too. The BJP, IMO are mofos; but they arent stupid.

Since you Pakistanis are so mature & introspective an` all--introspect this: Indians are CRAZY enough to risk nuclear annihilation & world condemnation than give an inch of Kashmir. Now you guys can shout from the rooftops about how evil & hypocritical we are. The dominant discourse among Indians is ``F what Pakistanis think of us; for that matter F what the rest of the world thinks of us; we are going to keep Kashmir even if it destroys us!``.

Now shake your head & go ``tsk..tsk..ya Allah, what have we done to deserve such evil neighbors?!`` The Indian response would be ``we`d rather spend an eternity burning in hell than spend a second in the jannah with assholes like you!--so go F yourself!``

So please, Umairr, since you guys are the only mature, sane, introspective ones left in the subcontinent, at least consider this. The ``freedom fight`` of a 1000 cuts has`nt bled India. It has oozed TESTESTERONE & made them totally INSANE. There is NOT ONE Indian (on Chowk or in the ``real`` world) who is saying ``gee; maybe we should reconsider our Kashmir policy!``. There is not ONE protest in India about making the GOI give up Kashmir. The insane ``silent majority`` of India is shouting ``fry the Paki mofos--doesnt matter if we get fried ourselves!``

OTOH, sane, mature, introspective Pakistani commentators (that YOU respect, BTW) are saying:

1)gee--maybe OUR Kashmir policy is getting diminishing returns & maybe it will destroy US before we liberate Kashmir.

2) We have sacrificed our economy, our lives & our future to support, feed & free the Afghans. How come they hate us so? Goddamned INGRATES!! Who knows?!, maybe the Kashmiris in IOK will do the same thing! Ah! but at least they will hate the Indians more, like the Afghans hate the Russians more--BIG WHOOP!

3) Not a SINGLE country , not even our brother muslim countries, not even China is pressuring India to give up Kashmir. Today, when we need them the most, they are telling BOTH of us ``Please stop this madness!``. Gee, I wonder why they arent singling out India?!--after all the Indians are INSANE, we are introspective.

So please, my sane, introspective, mature brother of mine--could you at least consider this?! Maybe THATS the miracle we need!

Ref AAmir #: 12

[A piece of SANITY ,dispensed equally to fanatic lunatics like Harami..Ou .Sux Sena,Jay & Avr etc. on one side & Ali ,Ylh,etcon the Pakistan side]

Yo, pathetic idiot, can you point out where I have called for war between India and Pakistan?

[who have `my penis is bigger than yours complex`]

On our part, it is `our foreskins are intact` complex. Just being factual here.

[ever noticed why the missiles are shaped so Lol he he]

That is because the missiles will take less than 2 minutes to reach their targets... just as long as your shlong lasts.

[Lets give PEACE a chance at ALL cost .Even at the cost of territory .It aint worth it .]

Good to see a slightly sane Pakistani who wants his temptresses right here on earth.

Macgupta #6: You seem as sure of Pakistan`s evilness as you are of India`s virtue. You could be right. But if you are so sure, why not take all this information you have to the UN and the International Court of Justice? If you don`t have an answer for that, then perhaps the Indian stance isn`t as virtuous as you make it out to be.

You have quoted a lot of international correspondents. That is good. However, you need to take a look at the ones who point out hte mistakes by India, also. Primarily the ones from Amnesty International. And if you do belive in the international correspondents, then don`t you think India needs to lift the ban against them in IOK. If not, then why quote them.

Christopher Hutchins believes Lady Diana and Mother Teresa were crooks also. He has repeatedly stated that on TV. He thinks Henry Kissinger is a war criminal. He is a supporter of the Palestinian cause. Quite a controversial figure, to say the least. However, I believe he does strongly support the creation of the International Criminal Court. And that is where he would think the claims against Pakistan should be decided. I agree with him on that part.

As long as India continues to play judge, jury and executioner, nothing is going to change in South Asia. Either you need to realize you are in the wrong, or you need to get international organizations involved, and expose Pakistan.

The current war hysteria is going to backfire against India. If it starts a war, then both India and Pakistan can theoretically get destroyed, and the blame will go on India. If it doesn`t start a war, then it will have created all this fuss for nothing, and will not be able to create it again. Threatening all out war is like threatening to quit from a company. It is a one time deal.

What worries me the most is the brainwashing that seems to have engulfed Indians: Pakistan is the criminal, even if India has no proof. Pakistan is evil, even if it is India is unwilling to get the UN involved. India can run over Pakistan in a war (as stated by Georger Fernandes). Pakistan is being run by religious extremists, even though India is the country that is being run by BJP. Pakistan should accept whatever India says, however India should never believe what Pakistan states. The Indian law minister went so far as to say that it is Pakistan that has killed 61,000 Kashmiri civlians in India. I wouldn`t be surprised if most Indians believe him. This shows how out of touch the Indian mindset has become from reality. Logic seems to have gone out the door.

For the past two years, there has been a lot of introspection going on in Pakistan. It is evident here on Chowk. Pakistanis are slowly attempting to separate the goods of their society from the bads. Action has been taken against the beaurecracy, military, businesses, politicians, and now the religious right. Not due to threat from India, but due to self-evaluation. The top corrupt political leaders are in exile, and their deputies are now slowly making a place for themselves and are commenting quite maturely on Pakistani affairs. You will not hear a single Pakistani leader of politician stating that Pakistan should counter India`s threats with furthur threats. I can point to ten Indian leades who are threatening war. Can you point to one Pakistani leader who is threatening war?

Not counting its basketcase economy (much worse than Pakistan`s uptil the 90s), India had developed an intellectual standard that was more mature and realistic than Pakistan`s, uptil the 90s. It had been able to keep its religious extremists completely at bay. However, now India is going in the other direction. There seems to be no introspection, anymore. The extremist BJP is getting elected again and again. While the Pakistani intellectuals are calling for a control of parties like JUI and JI, and of the banning of parties like TNFJ And SSP (Musharraf did not even invite JUI and JI to discuss how to handle the current situation), Indian seem to be illogically following everything the BJP says. How can they not realize that one cannot unilaterally declare some other country a criminal and threaten war? While corrupt Pakistanis like BB, NS and Altaf Hussain are wanted by the law, corrupt people like Fernandes are back as Defence Ministers.

In three months, the BJP is going to build a temple on the Babri Mosque site. Vajpayee has called this, ``issue a matter of national sentiment`` (tehelka.com). If the previous Babri mosque incidents is a criteria to go by, this will result in furthur Hindu-Muslim conflicts, with many deaths. Will those be unilaterally blamed on Pakistan also? This combined with the current war hysteria against Pakistan is going to make South Asia more volatile than before. What happens then? What if along with this, the BJP loses in Uttar Pradesh?

The Indians would be well advised to stop worrying about the religious parties in Pakistan. They will not get elected, and their leades are in house arrest. Indians should be more worried about the direction their own country is going. And if they really believe they are in the right, they should have absolutely no fear of getting international organizations involved in these conflicts. If the UN and ICJ and AI declare Pakistan to be criminal, Pakistanis should accept the verdict wholeheartedly and take action. However, Pakistan should never negotiate on Indian terms, just because India threatens it with war. Pakistan should not attack the Indian forces, however if India attacks, Pakistan should defend its borders wholeheartedly and defensively, and immediately get the UN involved.

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War of 1971 - My Childhood Memoir

On that September evening of 1965 when jet planes roared overhead declaring the start of war, my mother along with the rest of the family was rushing towards a safer place, my nana’s (grandfather’s) home, 25 miles away. She was carrying all her valuables with her and I was also present in that family caravan - a few months old fetus in my mothers womb. So everything I have heard about the war of 1965 is hearsay but the war of 1971 left many images in my mind that never want to leave to this day. When I hear the military build up across the border between India and Pakistan, all of a sudden I feel like I am a 5 year old boy in December of 1971 and all those images play in my mind. I think about all those numerous 4 and 5 year old children who might be going through the emotions and imagery that I went through 30 years ago.

Punjab de jammeyan nu nitt mohinma - is an accepted truth of life by my elders. When Sir Radcliff sat down to draw the border of Pakistan and India between Lahore and Amritsar in late summer of 1947, my village - Naushehra Dhalla - became an injured casualty of his pen. It became part of India but its sister village - Bhadhaana (Padhaana) about 1 mile on the other side became part of Pakistan. That divided many friendships, relations and end of an era of my family history in that region. My father lost his High School in Bhadaana where he had just started as a 7th grade student that year. With that school he lost many of his friends, teachers, dukaan walas, he used to buy his lunch of chhollays and amroods from, and long walks in the streets of Bhadhaana that he never got the chance to see again although he spent rest of his life only 20 minute walk from it. Accepting all that and much more in the future has become a habit for us. One of those habits is dealing with the war between the 2 countries. I have experienced only one these wars, the war of 1971 on the Western front.

When the war became imminent in early winter of 1971 most of the villagers sent their children and other portable belongings to safer places. I along with my 2 sisters were sent to my grandfather (nana’s) home sometime in November while my dada ji, my parents and uncle and aunt stayed back. Every few days someone will come back from our home and give us the news about what is going on back home. I was not much interested in that probably because I hardly had any idea of India, Pakistan and war. I was happy being at my Naanke’s home and playing with my cousins. Then one day my dad brought the news that they have built a morcha in the front yard of our haveli. Although our village was close to the border, our land was on the Indian side of the village about 2 miles away from the border and we had just moved to the Haveli being built in the farm. Dad told that with the help of some army men they had built a very strong morcha (bunker) where about 15 to 20 people can sleep during the war. This idea got me interested and made me feel home sick for the first time in 3 weeks. I wanted to see our home and particularly see how our morcha looks like. Dad told me the location of the morcha in the haveli and I was using all my imagination to see how it looks like. Before that I had heard about fauji morchas being built around our area but having our own morcha in our haveli was fascinating. I wanted to go back and see my home and meet my dada ji whom I had not seen for weeks.

Hardly a few days passed that war started. Fighter planes started roaring during the night even over my nana’s home which was considered safe. My uncles had tinted all glass windows in the house with newspapers so that light does not pass through. When I asked why we have to close the glass windows my uncle told me - so that planes don’t see our house and bomb it. That scared the hell out of me. I started thinking our morcha back home might be safer than this place and I was kind of upset with my uncle’s aerial defense system of turning off the lights at night. I liked our morcha better. I remembered, dad had told us that fauji jawaans who built it said that this morcha won’t collapse even if a Pakistani plane crashes into it. Now I know it was all shoshaybaazi, but back then Fauji’s words were very assuring. We spent all night staring at the plane lights and flares of bombs dropping here and there in the far horizon towards the border. Next morning my dad and uncle also came from home. They were trapped in the morcha all through the first night of war but with the first ray of sunlight they left home towards where we were. My dada ji insisted on staying in the morcha. He had couple of cows for milk, plenty of chickens that we had at the farm and lot of rice and aaTa. He said he knows how to boil rice and fry a chicken. He insisted that with the stuff he had he can last 6 months of war - above all he did not want to leave his home in the safety of strangers. It was a matter of honor for him. He was not alone. Many other elders from the neighboring farms who were staying behind teamed up with him. They would cook their food during the day, water the wheat fields, milk the cows and as soon as golabaari started in the evening they will duck inside the morcha and listen to news on radio.

Next 12 days of war became a routine after couple of days. I don’t remember much about it other than watching golabaari every evening and after some time getting bored and falling asleep. Home sickness and excitement to see the morcha increased every day. After few days my parents and uncles were worried too about dada ji’s health. A week or so later someone went there and brought the news that Indian army has crossed over to Pakistani territory and our village is safe. Then before the last day of war the word came that war is ending. That afternoon my parents could not stop their eagerness to go back home. They planned with my uncle to go back and stay there as war seem to have ended. When they were ready to leave I insisted to go with them. I started crying and kicking my legs (my trade mark) creating a scene to blackmail them to take me with them. All through the journey mostly we saw army vehicles, checkpoints, army camps, etc. although civilians had gotten the courage to get their necks out at the rumor that war has ended. We reached our home couple of hours before sunset. I was so happy to see dada ji and morcha. I was going inside the morcha every few minutes and checking its strength by jumping over its roof. The morcha was really big like a room with only one small opening coming out next to one of the walls of haveli. I guess the idea was that wall was shielding any bomb shrapnel from going inside the morcha. Many other people in the neighborhood came to our place. Women cooked food and made roTis which dada ji and friends had not eaten for 2 weeks. They were complaining that they were living on rice, eggs, chicken and milk only like they were malnutritioned or something. Everyone has his own stories and mood was very festive. Finally the war was over and our homes and village was safe.

The festivities were very short lived. As the sun went down firing started again. Planes and bombs going all over the place. The cease fire was some kind of rumor that everyone believed to come home. About 25 men and women ducked inside the morcha. We had hay laid on the floor of morcha and bed sheets nailed on the sides. It was basically a big round hole in the front yard which was covered first with lot of heavy wood, mostly from the trees freshly cut, many layers of it and then covered with lot of dirt. Considering the bomb technology we had in 1971, this was probably not a bad morcha although nothing to brag about after seeing the caves of Tora Bora. I was the only child in that morcha. All night noise of planes, artillery bombs and firing went on. Dad was switching the radio back and forth between Jalandhar, Lahore and BBC. Every word was being heard by the elders in the morcha very carefully. Once in a while someone will ask for clarification. Every few minutes bomb noise will be so heavy that after it calms down one of the males will get out of the morcha and look over the wall and make a guess about the place where it might have hit. “eh te lagda ay bagh wich army de camp te digga ay gola”(looks like this one fell on army camp in the orchards) someone announced. When no cannon fired from the camp for few minutes everyone thought may be army camp about half mile away is really hit. But then noise of artillery blasting off bombs from near the camp was heard proving them wrong.

In the middle of night amid a calm of about half hour when everyone was relaxed the biggest explosion came. It sounded so loud and close that it shook the morcha, some dirt pouring down through the woods fel on our clothes. It was certainly a close call, it dropped only few fields away from our home. My uncle got out of the morcha to look over the wall to see what has happened. As he got his head over the wall another loud one few fields away shook us again. He ducked back to the morcha quickly while everyone was shouting his name. At this moment many started doubting their own wisdom to come back to the war zone. Someone mentioned my name. I was listening everything ducked inside the rajai(bedding) very quiet and almost pretending like I am sleeping. When everyone was talking loudly someone said “shhshhhhhh rolla na pao munda jaag jayega” (don`t talk loudly, boy will wake up). Next morning when it was over everyone thought I was sleeping all through the night. I told them I knew everything. I told them I was not sleeping but they said but you looked like sleeping. “Do you remember when the big bomb hit?” someone asked. I said in my trembling voice “haan mainu pata jadon tusi kehnday si rolla na pao munda jaag joo’ga”(yes I know when you guys were talking about me that I might wake up). Hearing that everyone cracked in laughter at my innocent remark. That was the last day of war. It ended for us and everyone was happy. To this day everyone who was in the morcha that night reminds me it whenever we meet.

Within few days everyone came back to the village. Village is sandwiched between the border line and the defense canal built by India. One has to cross the bridge over the defense canal to go to the village. The bridge was broken and a narrow one was used by army. Many people whose land was on Indian side of the defense canal moved to their farms. Only few months ago ours was the only haveli in the farms but now half of the village started building theirs. It was convenient to be close to the farm where men worked all day. Exploded bomb shells were all over the place in our fields. Many of us kids will go to the fields and collect the metal pieces in spite of our parents restraining us from doing so in case one of them blows up. We would sell this scrap metal to the chhabriwala (bicycle hawker) and buy pateesa (a mithai) from him. Some of these pieces were really heavy and amount of pateesa we would get was good enough to make up for the war damage to our childhood. The army was cleaning up the area and although war was over they were there to stay for a while. They built some checkpoints on the roads, cleaned our school, and had a big open door projection screen set up near their main camp about a mile from our home. There they showed movies to the army men and civilians for free. That was also my first introduciton to cinema and movies.

Looking at the way many other wars in history have turned out to be, our wars of 1965 and 1971 on the Western front were nicer ones. Very few civilians died and damage to property was also minimum. In the whole incident only one girl from our village lost one of her finger hit by a flying shrapnel from a bomb blast near by. Wars are not always like that particularly in the modern days of heavy explosives and fast technology. May God bless our leaders` conscience. May saner thoughts prevail and no children of my land have to see another war. Let us use free time of our armies to build schools, roads and bridges for the 5 year olds to look forward to something.

- Jagjit Sandhu

After the great flood, god promised never to visit man with such a deluge again. But he did promise ``the fire next time``.

Happy New Year.

IT seems the writer in his zeal to sound balanced does not recognize on all this war is going to be between people of India and fascist military setup of Pakistan. This war if won by India would be in the end beneficial for whole region. This would undo and purge the divisive forces.. This would herald the end of communalism anywhere in the subcontinent... Sorry this war is nencessary. One does need someone to purge the fascism and fanaticism out of this country.. Surely the end of fascism in Pakistan and end of India-hatred would take any agenda out of Indian hindua fascists.. So this war is necessary... Stalemate is already taking too much cost on communal harmony in our country.. We need this final ``manthan``, to finish of our leftover madness of partition.. Then only finally we will have that great unified subcontinent which we all dream of

Shankarji :

Inshaallah, the stalemate is about to be broken. The ISI-jihadis in Pakistan is about to receive serious setbacks. This will benefit Pakistan as much as it benefits India.

Arnaud de Borchegrave, not an Indian propagandist, wrote in the Washington Times, that the Lashkar and the Al-Qaeda are interchangeable.

Khaled Ahmed, not an Indian propagandist, wrote in the Friday Times that Talibanism is not native to Afghanistan and is an ISI export.

This is not about ``somebody`s fault``. This is about the excision of a cancer. Christopher Hitchens, not an Indian propagandist, wrote in Vanity Fair, about this cancer : ``And I wish that those in the West who harbor softhearted illusions about Muslim grievances could see and hear General [Hamid] Gul (rhymes with ``ghoul``). He is not an oppressed peasant. He is Pakistans Pinochet: a militaristic and privileged thug, fattened for many years on American subsidies.``

It is STRATFOR analysts, and not Indian propagandists, who wrote ``With al Qaeda and Taliban elements fleeing Afghanistan, the United States will continue to grapple with strategic problems concerning its traditional ally, Pakistan. There are significant differences between what President Pervez Musharraf has said he will do to fight terrorism, what he intends to do and what he actually can accomplish. The threat of an imminent Indo-Pakistani war may be just the lever Washington needs to move Islamabad.``

Also this is a RAND assessment :

Regardless of the psychological gratification that might accrue to a strategy of “giving Pakistan a bloody nose,” New Delhi will continue to exhibit substantial restraint—despite an occasional lapse precisely because it seeks to secure geopolitical goals much larger than simply humiliating Islamabad.

We can hope that we do not lapse this time.

-Arun Gupta

[Some of us, like Noah`s family, will be saved from this Armageddon, safely ensconsed in the West.]

Scientists believe that cockroaches will survive nuclear wars and perpetuate their species.

So YOU don`t have to hide in the West to survive a nuclear holocaust.

``...I think its pointless to debate ``who`s at FAULT``...``

Shankar, is it also pointless to abjure violence?

what the $#@! are you babbling about shrinker?

Thank you, Shankar. Effectively disconcerting, especially the closing paragraph.

Do you think we will be able to live with the guilt of having survived this massacre of innocents, on both sides of the line. How many people have to be mercilessly slaughtered before it is enough? I read somewhere that peace is merely the silence between wars. Living as we are now, I am tempted to agree with that.

May God help us all, for only He can protect us from the horror that threatens to consume.

Aamir

Shankar Sahib, you are absolutely right.

``Enough is Enough``


HELP TO STOP WAR IN SOUTH ASIA

All who value peace and human life need to intervene and stop war in South Asia. India and Pakistan are poised to engage in such a misadventure as their respective troops and missiles (possibly nuclear) face each other on their border and on the Line of Control in Kashmir. This is happening while we in the United States are busy watching the news from neighboring Afghanistan.

People of Indian and Pakistani origin especially need to wake up to the reality of what kind of misery this conflict will produce. Our armchair warmongers of South Asian origin who now make their homes outside the region, in Europe, Canada and here in the United States need to get a large dose of reality.

Some Pakistanis are arranging a peace march at a Northern California venue (exact date and place to be decided) this week and urge all from the South Asian (aka “Desi”) Diaspora and their friends to protest against the possibility of war between India and Pakistan. I hope that Americans will join us and show solidarity with the pursuit of sanity in the region. Let us have a happy, peaceful and prosperous new year in a part of the world where the misery of poverty already rules the streets. Help us stop this looming war.

Exactly how many innocent Kashmiri Muslim civilians have the Indian occupationist forces killed in the past 12 years? Used to be 30,000 then 50,000; stabilised at 70K for a while... now Urstruly has raised the bid to 80,000 (post#96).

Would be nice to have a head-to-head comparison of the civilians killed and women raped by Indian occupationist forces on the one hand and the god-fearing freedom-fighting jehadis on the other. Bids invited.

SM

Shankar wrote:

Sigh...I guess you are relatively new to Chowk. This business about what people think of me--I`ve explained several times in the past; so its getting BORING. But I guess I have to do it time & again--because ALAS; extremist Indian sh *theads like you pop your ugly heads over & over again on Chowk. I thought that maybe if I just smirk & ignore mofos like you, you will disappear--but no; you post over & over again about how much you hate me--like an annoying mosquito, buzzing in my ear.

## Yeah well... at least I got your attention.... had to upset poor anNy in the process, but it got your tongue wagging dinnit? (and no, I`m not new to Chowk, just newly found my voice)

Besides; now you`ve gone & pissed off anNY & then have the balls to talk to her in a patronising, condescending manner. BIG MISTAKE pal. I pity you now:) Chowk vetrans have learnt this the hard way--NEVER EVER get these Pakistani shernis mad at you! They`ll eat you for lunch! They are more khatarnak than their ``world famous`` military!

## Bah! I won`t even bother dignifying that. Suffice to say, if you`re scared of a Paki, that too a woman Paki (with all their rights) you got problems buddy.

I used anNy as a bait, to get you to reply. Read my post to her again, her opinion means nothing to me. How on earth can a foreigner comment on Indian notions of patriotism?

OK, seriously, (sigh.. this sounds like a frikking broken record).. I feel VERY VERY good when a guy like you loses respect for me. In fact, I`m happy you`ve now lost respect for me COMPLETELY; rather than just a little bit. It proves to me that I`m on the right track when extremists (esp Indian extremists) hate what I say. As far as I`m concerned, guys like you are much more dangerous for India than any of those Paki fundos.

## You wouldn`t be feeling so smug and self-righteous if you really knew who I was or what I stand for. People like you (excuse MY broken record) think they are superior to the rest of their pathetic compatirots because they have the vision to look beyond national barriers and see the BIG picture. Which means knocking your own country because after all ``right is right and wrong is wrong``. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. Get that into your skull (and maybe ease up on the mofos and dickheads for a while, it`s getting tiresome.)

The problem arises when there is a conflict - not between right and wrong - but between two rights. When the chips are down, I owe my own nation and its Government a lot more than I do General Mushy and Pakistan. So that`s where I will put my money (and my heart).

Hey, I got no problem if Indians are angry at Pakistani jehadis for the attack on the parliament or the low intensity war they are conducting in Kashmir. I am too. I also feel that the GoP is responsible (directly or indirectly) for this crap. Personally, I dont feel Mushy knew about this attack. I dont care much for his anti-indian stance--but he`s not an idiot. He`s probably the most astute Pakistani leader that they have produced--in my lifetime, at least.

## Just because he is astute, doesn`t necessarily mean he is good from India`s point of view. Just remember nations have INTERESTS not friends, and it will make your thinking a lot clearer. If you think I have no Pakistani friends you are seriously mistaken. But in a time of conflict, I will support my own governement to the hilt. trust me: you won`t find me organising protest marches demanding to know how many kids Vajapyeejee has killed today. Which does not again mean I will take any sh1t from the Government, just as I refuse to take any from you or your bunch or pacifist cohorts.

But that does`nt mean India is this innocent victim of terror & her hands are clean. In that respect, I COMPLETELY agree with Romair--right is right & wrong is wrong. What India has done in Kashmir is something I`m ashamed of--Pakistan or no Pakistan. Just because GoP is wrong, does`nt automatically mean that the GoI is RIGHT! What we disagree, probably, is the WAY each country is going about correcting those wrongs.

## What India has done in Kashmir has been what we have done in every other area: ignore the problem, refuse to acknowledge it exists till one day it becomes so big it threatens to swallow you whole. Forget pre-1989, that was one sordid saga of greed and opportunism by everyone involved (Raja Harisingh, the Abdullahs, the Congress). But after 1989, ever since the freedom struggle went militant what HAS the Indian governemnt done? Sent in the Army to protect its sovereign territory? What have the Pakis done: sent in Afghans, Chechens, Saudis and Sudanese who have fukkall to do with the problem , with guns and bombs and a promise of 72 virgins in the afterlife to kill people irrespective of religious background in the most cowardly ways possible? You make the choice Shankar, mine is made.

That, I feel is the MAIN reason why the rest of the world is assiduously neutral. I think both moderate Indians & Pakistanis agree that India & Pakistan are 2 fleas fighting for the same dog.

## The reason the world is assidiously neutral is because that idiot Pandit Nehru took it to a platform it didn`t belong in: the UN. And because Pakistan has been a faithful lackey of the US since the 50s. Now that the cold war is over, America suddenly realises that it has a lot more to lose by pissing off India, a secular, progressive democracy (and never mind those posts ranting about us being babykilling barbarians) than a country so confused it doesn`t even remember if it was meant to be Islamic or democratic or both and has turned to an opportunistic ambitious armyman for guidance, who they will soon realise does little more than blow hot air when cool thinking is the order of the day.

What I cant STAND about extremists like you & chandan is that your testesterone has corroded your brain cells. You want to settle this, once & for all, in a war. If I misunderstand you, I apologise, in advance.

##You do misunderstand, and your apology is completely unnecessary. You have every right to speak your mind, as I do, and this is one of the beautiful things about living in this country. I can even condone the unforgiving manner in which our Oppopsition mauls the Govt over the coals at the slightest opportunity, because frankly that`s their job, and screw the ulterior motives. So peace brother, I hear you. I may not agree with you, sure, but I respect your right to an opinion just as I respect my own.

Just use whats left in your brain cells for a minute. Romair may disagree with me, but its true India has not lost a conventional war with Pakistan. But their military isnt a pushover. Even in a conventional war, India wont be able to just walk into Pakistan. I`m sure even someone as stupid as you will agree that the Indo-Pak military disparity isnt as great as the US & her allies faced in the Gulf war. Pakistan will give us as good as they can get. Besides an attacking military is always at a disadvantage & generally takes a lot more casualties.

## Agreed. We`ve all read Catch 22 here. No need to go over all that again. But there comes a point when going to war is the only logical choice. I have a feeling that time is now. World opinion is firmly for India and anti-Pakistan. Nobody believes General Mushy. It`s Pakistan who`s attcking our legislative houses and bombing our civilians. Even public sentiment for the first time in years is veering towards a war (check out todays` newsitem on the Bravery Award winner kid who wants to go and kill Pakis as soon as he grows up. That`s not healthy- blind hatred like that needs an outlet).

So, what the HELL will India win; even if it ``prevails`` ultimately in a conventional war (not to mention with horrendous casualties)? ``Stamping out the Pakistani fundos`` is just as fuzzy an objective as the US had in Vietnam (stamping out Communist fundos). Even if the Indian army, battered & bloody (though ``victorious``) raises the Indian flag in Islamabad or Azad Kashmir; they will have to continue to fight until almost every Pakistani civilian is murdered by them. Even you cant believe its a realistic objective!

## I don`t think that IS the objective. For me, and many others tha objective is simply to get Pakistan out of our hair and let us lead our boring comfortable lives. Kashmir is the key. Obviously we won`t give it up because that would only mean that the Nagas, Bodos, Gurkhas, khalistanis and god alone knows who else (Tamils? Telugus? Keralites?) with any grouse at all with the Govt. will pop right back up with their demands for secession. So the only logical way out is to engage in a full-fledged war with Pakistan on an issue of principle. Whatever the outcome of such a war, we have to fight it. And there is enough anecdotal evidence to believe that we would emerge victorious from a full-scale war.

Maybe this sh1t can be settled once and for all and at least our kids will learn to grow up without being plagued by that monkey Pakistan on their back (pun unintended, but take it anyway).

And thats just a conventional war. I dont want to even BEGIN to think of the ramifications of a NUCLEAR war!

## There is no deispute over the ramifications of a Nuclear war. Go study Game Theory again. The threat of Mutual Assured destruction is what prevents (or at least is supposed to prevent) the nuclear war. God protect us from mad mullahs who think they can nuke us and survive.

The days of Indo-Pak military ``wars`` are OVER; at least rational people on BOTH sides should ACCEPT that its over. There`s got to be a better way to score ``brownie points`` over the other side than mass military mobilisations.

## The so-called rational ones are in a minority, or at least, confined to this side of the border. Rationality cannot rule when the other side is irrational. It has to work both ways.

Inshallah, this current crisis seems to be winding down. But, I`m afraid this is going to happen again & again. All it requires a few extremists in either military to ``settle this one way or another``. Once the ball starts rolling, NOBODY will be able to stop it.

## Look, Shankar, given a choice nobody wants a war. It`s not an easy decision to take at all. Probably you and I might not even survive it. But the current situation is such that Pakistan preceives our reluctance to engage in conventional warfare as weakness. THIS I CANNOT TOLERATE. If we back off now, it would be cowardice. What use are principles if you are wiling to forsake them just to maintain a fragile peace?

If saying ``Enough is Enough`` is being a wus--I`m PROUD to be a wus. I wish you could look at my face; to see if I really CARE what ch---, I mean dickheads, like you think of me..

## Then fine.... you got your fifteen minutes now blow.... what use is it having opinions if you don`t care to listen to those of others? Just one word of warning: if push comes to shove and there is a war, don`t be looking to your Pakistani friends to shower you with affection and support. Because at the end of teh day, whatever their faults, they are patriots. You, like Arundathi Roy, have chosen to secede. I wish you well, but don`t you dare ``represent`` me our my countrymen again.

Regards,

SM