Enough is Enough

I am an expartriate Indian living in the USA.

I do not believe that that the event of Dec 13 was

orchestrated with the knowledge of Gen Musharaff. In this I agree with many posters in chowk that the timing of this act suggests that it could not have been orchestrated with Gen. Musharaff`s knowledge. My belief is that it was orchestrated by one of the Pakistan based terrorist groups which at one time or other was supported/financed by the Pakistani govt and/or its people.

Having said that I do beleive that the state of Pakistan and/or its official machinary have been engaged in a low intensity proxy war with India for last several years. My belief is based on Pkaistani newspapers columns, Inidan newspapers and recent reports in papers such as the NY Times. (See for example http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/02/international/asia/02STAN.html)

I am not so sure of the superiority of India`s military over Pakistan`s. So I am not in support of a war. But I fully support measures short of war. In this I fully support all recent actions taken by the current government of India (while I oppose many of its other actions unrelated to this such as certain revisions of text books, etc.). I think enough is enough, and it is time to break the friendly facade with a governement that is waging a low-intensity war with India.

The day i am concvinced that the Pakistani govt has stopped this war I will be back to my earlier position of striving for an open border (like EU but tailored to the subcontinent sensibilities) which will make the Kashmir problem almost obsolete. But until then I would be supportive of cutting of all links with the Pakistan govt.

In this regard i would like to point out that Tamil rebels in Srilanka were once supported by Inidia but no one thinks India does the same now.

So, if and when Pakistan stops the direct support of anti-India terrorists India and the world will know about it. India supports the Tibetian cause but does not train/finance anti-Chinese terrorists; so Pakistan can continue supporting the Kashmiri cause without training/financing anti-India terrorists.

This is my personal opinion.

sincerely,

Cbaral

shankar:

{The dominant discourse among Indians is ``F what Pakistanis think of us; for that matter F what the rest of the world thinks of us; we are going to keep Kashmir even if it destroys us!``.}

….and you can add F what the kasmiris think of us to the list…..why is it always we want, we want, we want?……ever thought of what the kashmiris want?..

chandan,

{{Sitting in USA surely you can lecture people about peace..}}

You goddamned mofo, you sit in the US & lecture the ``subcontinent`` about war! nuclear war?! Cost-benefit ratio?

On top of that, you hypocritical besharam claim to have attended that ``peace rally`` in San Jose?!!, shake hands with the owner of Chowk & advocate the benefits of war on Chowk?!

Harimou,

Did you invite this chut from your RSS shaka?!

samina,

Very nice post.

Only one point I dont agree

{{What I began to think about is the need of Pakistanis and the rest of the world, for proof.}}

Here`s the problem (at least they way I view it). India(ns) DOESNT/dont trust Pakistan(is). Right or wrong, fair or unfair, its true. So its pointless to provide proof to someone who you absolutely do not trust. No matter what ``evidence`` you provide them , it will be spun as malicious, fabricated Indian propaganda. Because, the problem is that the Pakistanis trust Indians lesser than Indians trust Pakistanis.

I am absolutely certain that India has shown evidence to the US. I`m also certain Bush is convinced by the evidence. Why the heck would Bush twist Mushy`s arm if he isnt convinced about the evidence? He needs Pakistan`s support much more than he needs India`s, right now, because he wants OBL & Al-Qeeda. He wont get that by antagonising Mushy. If there was even a hint of foul play on India`s side, the US would have questioned it & taken India to task for putting a monkey wrench in the US objective.

Does anybody believe that the US loves India so much that it will compromise her own interests? Does anybody believe that Mushy would have arrested all these people if there was NO evidence, no pressure from the US, because all of a sudden, he thinks the LeT & JM are bad?!

Gee I wish I were a fly on the wall to hear all the behind-the-scene banter going on between the 3 countries.

Soysauce`s post #38 also explains it very well from another viewpoint.

On a similar note..What good did OBL`s tape do? People who believe he was innocent STILL believe he`s innocent. While almost 100% of Americans were convinced without a shadow of doubt, the Islamic world continues to be highly skeptical & even cynical.

Bottom line (& I agree its sad)--``world opinion`` means very little. What matters more is US opinion--because the US is the toughest kid on the block. You know & I know & every Indian & Pakistani knows that Mushy is a ``hero in the fight against terrorism``--not because the US respects him--its because they NEED him & he does what they want (smart man). Too bad, Mushy isnt like URstruly--Indians would be dancing in the streets if he were:)

Shammi

#32 & 35,

{{Now, do you concede that there is low intensity warfare being waged by Pakistan against India (a la against Afghanistan -- actually Pakistan `took over` Afghanistan through proxies)?}}

Absolutely! I believe Pakistan is equally responsible for this nonsense. Whatever ``moral ascendancy`` the Kashmiri muslims claim is ground to the dust by this low intensity war. They have allowed these SOBs that are being churned out from the madrassahs to take over their fight. I have NO sympathy for these Kashmiri terrorists being killed--no matter who calls them ``freedom fighters``. In the same vein I have no sympathy for the Palestinian terrorists or hamas or the LTTE in Sri Lanka. May they all rot in hell, as far as I`m concerned.

If they use violence to fight their cause--MIGHT BECOMES RIGHT!!

When people have legitimate grievences against opression, let them fight those grievances by non violent agitation. Contrary to what most Pakistanis believe, I believe the imperfect Indian democracy is far far better than anything Pakistan has ever put into place in their own country. A non-violent satyagraha would DEFINITELY succeed in Kashmir. If Pakistanis think Indians are nazi fascists, they are just a bunch of misguided idiots. If there is a Gandhian style non-violent movement in Kashmir, with continued ongoing civil disobedience, the Indians are not going to send them to gas chambers. If anything terrorises India, that will. This ``freedom fight`` just oozes testesterone among Indians. Has this 12 year old insurgency given them EVEN AN INCH OF IOK?!

So, yes, I like Romair`s posts & I think he`s a decent person, but I dont agree with most of what he says. He justifies the ``1000 cuts policy``; eventhough he uses very creative spin:)

So we`re back to square one--no agreement on Kashmir. Thats why I thank you for post #35. I think the subcontinent is doomed--& I`m responsible for it just as much as the rest of you. We are JUST BUYING TIME...thats all..

Sharon & Musharaff: Same people



In his interview to Foxnew ``War criminal`` Sharon says:

ARIEL SHARON, PRIME MINISTER, ISRAEL: I really have seen all the horrors of wars. It seems I understand the importance of peace maybe better that many of the politicians that talk about peace, but never had that experience. But for me, peace provides security to Jewish people.

How interesting is that human evil shows up in similar ways in different people. I do remember Mr CE Musharaff selling similar crap of I am a soldier and thats why I can not start war. One need not forget he served in 1971 in Bangladesh and must have been part parcel of holocaust perpetrated there.

Both Sharon and Musharaff have similar aims, one wants to get rid of gentiles from the land which is not his and another wants to get rid of infidels from land which is not his.

Romairr, #25 ``What about the fact that Indian movies have excellent songs, but poor stories?``

You cannot be serious! The songs are (MAYBE) marginally better than the stories - which isn`t saying much. The days of truly great singers from India seems to be in the past (in the films anyway). And I`ll go so far as to say that the hallmark of truly passionate, longing, poignant shairi as well as singing is no longer there in India. (And no, I don`t watch Indian movies as a rule - I`m forced to undergo that torture for short periods, to be polite, when I visit my favorite aunty`s house)

re: saminashah

{I also think that the Kashmir issue MUST be addressed and answered by the Kashmiri people and India and Pakistan must be responsible in coming to the table with honesty and the willingness to let Kashmir be self determining.}

...which kashmiri are we to listen to?...the kashmiri upon whom violence and misery was thrust upon by militants from across the border, who in turn invited the army in to create more misery?...the kashmiris whose minds have been brainwashed by those very militants into believing this is some grand muslim-kafir battle?...what kind of relevance does that vote have?...and how can there be a vote in a land which has been ethnically cleansed of kashmiri pandits and other non-muslims?...not a very fair vote...

and are we OK setting a precedent in the country where whenever some group has a problem, we have a majority-rules vote and the hell with the minorities...what if, as a dangerous next step to a kashmiri seccession, the hindus of india decide they want their own homeland too, just like the kashmiri muslims got?...can they then kick out everyone else?...if this idea sounds sick, then the idea of kashmir getting a plebiscite because its muslim majority wants it is pretty damn sick as well...

Chandan

LISTEN TO YOURSELF

Its exactly the reason Hitler to Saddam Hussain gave before invading France & KUWAIT respectively.

World is ful of tyrant invaders pretending to be liberators which angladeshi learnt quickly after`71



Ok so whats ur point. I dont see any objectivity in your argument. Ok Hitler used that argument, so what. Indian Govt is no Nazi regime (unlike some of our friends here might want us to believe). My point is simple, let this war be the war to end all ``proxy``, ``covert``, ``overt`` wars going on for decades once and for all. Cost benefit analysis if done with detached mind would also favor this approach. We might get idealistic and shout ``Peace`` ``Peace`` like a parrot without realizing peace does not exist in vacuum. Religious-military fascism and democratic-secular ideologies can never converge, how much you hold ``talks`` an ``summits`` about. These elements have to be purged. My reference to WW2 was with respect to choices made by Chamberlain and Churchill. World was sane and pragmatic enough to go for Chruchill option, we can still dread to think what would have been the outcome if we had persisted with Chamberlain kind of choices. I wonder if Vajpayee has will like Chruchill to do a service to this whole subcontinent or he want to bury his head in sand like Ostrich.

If we look at history it was our impotent leaders` fear of ``civil war`` which lead to partition and giving Pakistan on silver platter to those religious fascists. And how ``peaceful`` was that partition. Well the fact is that WARS have to fought for maintaining peace. Cowardliness never leads to durable peace.

#34 saminashah

You know it`s a little too late for providing proof or evidence or whatever else to pakistan. There`s a war coming and soon. Vajpayee has been put into the position of going to war. He has said there can be no more cross-border terrorism and that this will be the last war between india and pakistan. As the pakis say there`s a little unfinished business of partition that needs to be attended to.

From an indian point of view, it`s an open secret that various jihadi outfits operate out of pakistan. No proof needed there. Just as afghanistan was going to provide strategic depth to pakistan, pakistan has been providing strategic depth to the jihadis. They can hit and then hide in pakistan. This is the way it has been for the last 10, 12 years and the situation has got worse since kargil when for the second time (the first one was right after partition) the pak army openly waged a war through the jihadis and firmly aligned itself with them. All this has been masterful from the pak point of view. Wage a war on india without really going to war and losing enlisted soldiers. A low-cost, low-intensity war that would drain india.

From the indian point of view, it`s far better to make the war visible and of high intensity.

I think it`s going to be bloody with a lot of destruction all around but the question is do we spend a billion dollars a year on a protracted low-intensity war that has been costing thousands of lives every year or have a quick one that would (hopefully) settle the issue once and for all.

If i had to choose between the two options i`d choose the latter. But of course between war of any kind and no war, i`d choose peace over war. It`s too late for that now.

All in all, other compulsions have taken over and providing proof to pak citizens is no longer a concern to indians.

saminashah #34
``What I began to think about is the need of Pakistanis and the rest of the world, for proof.``

I agree with you, India needs to put out a coherent account of its investigation since Dec 13 for the sake of ordinary Pakistanis and in order to shut up their idiot delusional columnists. IMO govt-to-govt enough information has been passed on by India for any govt. to be convinced, I donot think the US is taking this seriously merely because India is a growing market.

Those of us who read the Indian press are already acquainted with details which are not given wide coverage in the US press. Those who want to disbelieve will still disbelieve, like the bin Laden tape.

Let me summarize what the Indian police have said:
1. They found cellphones with numbers in the backpacks of the attackers.
2. They traced a number to a Kashmiri professor of Arabic in a Delhi college

3. They arrested him and a few others(mostly Indian Kashmiris), including a medical equipment saleman from Kashmir, Afzal who later spoke to two TV channels in India. They traced the car used in the attack, to whom it was sold and where.

4. This person Afzal identified the five attackers as all Pakistanis, even said one of the attackers was involved in the IC-814 hijacking in Dec 99(yet to be confirmed) and named the mastermind as a Jaish-e-Mohammad leader who is from Bahawalpur, Pakistan and operates in Indian Kashmir.


He even said the Pakistanis made calls to Karachi on the eve of the attack to bid goodbye to their families. One of the conspirators was supposed to watch Parliament proceedings on Indian Doordarshan, so that the attackers would know when Vajpayee arrived? and time their attack accordingly. But since there was a power cut, he couldnot give them the information so the attackers went ahead anyway.

The attackers had an altercation with another car driver on the way to Parliament and had to pay him off. He came forward later to tell the police about it.

More details:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/dec/16parl.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/dec/20parl10.htm
http://www.iht.com/articles/42850.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36985-2001Dec28.html
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/world/story/0,1870,93712,00.html
http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/Weekly2001/12.18.2001/India.htm
Day-by-day:
http://www.rediff.com/news/pattack.htm

The story was covered in the New York Times too. The articles are now archived, but one can search using the keyword `Afzal`.

Warning : Many people on chowk prefer to believe in jihadis pristine utterances than in ANY evidence put forth by Jews and Hindus (somehow religion is taken to undo the veracity of even the MOST conclusive evidence:)).

Talking of Jews. A NYT editor Jan Hoffman was interviewed on CSPAN some weeks ago and I watched it yesterday. She was in charge of the WTC obituary pages in the NYT and was being asked to relate her experiences of getting in touch with survivors and hearing the stories of the victims and compiling it for the newspaper.

One of her stories was really touching. Apparently, in Orthodox Jewish practice, if the husband goes missing and his body is not found, the wife remains in limbo about her marital status. So apparently, many Orthodox Jewish victims, who realised they weren`t going to even die in one piece, much less survive phoned their rabbis to give instructions for divorce or faxed divorces from their offices in WTC to spare their wives the agony of an uncertain status later. She called these divorces great acts of love. She is Jewish too and I am apprehensive of disrespecting all these people by relating their stories on a place like chowk :(.

chandan ``Surely the end of fascism in Pakistan and end of India-hatred would take any agenda out of Indian hindua fascists..``

Are you suggesting that the BJP getting elected in India is Pakistan`s fault, also. What about the fact that Indian movies have excellent songs, but poor stories? And the fact that Indian cricket teams, despite having excellent batsmen, have poor bowlers? Is that Pakistan`s fault also? Does the ISI or Benazir or Musharraf hold a gun to every Indian`s head, when they vote for the BJP? What benefit does Pakistan get from getting a party elected in India, that is threatening to destroy Pakistan?

If Indians want to take the agenda out of the ``hindua fascists``` hands, as you have suggested, wouldn`t a better solution be to just not vote for them? And why exactly would the BJP threaten to attack Pakistan, if it knew that this would take the agenda in India out of its own hands. It would only threaten to attack, if it felt it could gain even more votes in India. The BJP itself is hoping its current threatening posture against Pakistan will increase its vote bank in Uttar Pradesh. Wouldn`t you agree?

I have met too many Indians, for too many years, on an hourly basis, to not know them well enough. I have noticed two things about them:

1. On a personal basis, they are very non-violent (while Pakistanis are quite easily provoked). In my ten years of working with hundreds of them, I have seen very few even get angry, much less fight.

2. Indians are quite gullible and believe everything that is thrown at them by their own media and govt. (while Pakistanis are extremely cynical and doubtful about what their govt. and press says); specially when it concerns Pakistan.

This second factor has finally started dominating the first factor, and hence the current war hysteria in India. Indians need to completely sideline their own media (and Pakistan`s media) and see what the international human rights organizations and press say about various Indo-Pak issues. And they need to at least realize there must be a reason why their govt. has banned or sidelined all international organizations from Indo-Pak conflicts. The reason is that the Indian govt. does not want Indians to get a neutral unbiased view of these points of confrontation.

P.S. If there is any Indian who thinks that a war in South Asia will only get Pakistan blown up, while India will survive, I would like to sell them a couple of used cars, and some old furniture in my attic.

Indians (and Pakistanis) should hope and pray that Musharraf keeps the cool head he has kept so far. Because Vajpayee seems to have become extremely hawkish.

correction #23: ``This shows how evil Indians consider the Pakistan govt. and Pakistanis to be``

should read,

This shows Indians consider the Pakistan govt. and Pakistanis to be evil.

Re: Romair to Shankar

Romair, I don`t think that you quite got Shankar`s point. Shankar was making a prognosis -- regardless of the past. You, however, were unable to move beyond the past. Happy New Year.

Just checking in with my humble opinion...

I was talking to a relative for whom I have a great deal of respect. This relative is a highly educated professional who has lived in the US for the last 30 years, considers herself an American and is a moderate in her politics. I was a bit surprised when she questioned whether there was enough evidence in identifying the attackers of the Indian Parliament as Muslims or Pakistanis. Admittedly, I was a bit taken aback by what I perceived as a healthy dose of denial; I have taken India`s word that the attack was carried out by Islamic terrorists. What I began to think about is the need of Pakistanis and the rest of the world, for proof. While I know that there are some Chowkies who are understandably outraged by the attack (we should all be outraged) and the subsequent reluctance of Pakistanis in accepting that the attack originated from Pakistani militant groups; perhaps we need to respect the need of these unconvinced groups of people. Once the evidence is presented, there will be little argument as to where the responsibility lies. It is then up to Pakistanis to be courageous enough to accept the evidence and be committed to change, and to give up this very helpless culture of national victimhood.

A question I had asked on an earlier board focused on how conservative or Islamic various Pakistani institutions were. For example, how conservative/Islamic are the Pakistani police? Where are their sympathies viz Kashmir? Do these symapathies translate into an unwillingness to identify terrorist organizations? Can this unwillingness be a part of a greater problem Pakistan must deal with in addressing the fundamentalist element? (Thanks for your response Ali, but you didn`t answer my question)

I also think that the Kashmir issue MUST be addressed and answered by the Kashmiri people and India and Pakistan must be responsible in coming to the table with honesty and the willingness to let Kashmir be self determining. This does not mean that Pakistani terrorist groups or apologists can come up with all kinds of reasons that excuse terrorist actions in India, Pakistan or Kashmir. There is great potential for India and Pakistan to work out some solid negotiations here.

Shankar, I appreciated the complexity of your piece...I see us all as more interconnected than the title of your opinion might express...arguably we live in societies that are relatively successful experiments in plurality, diversity and democracy. I think there were various leaders and inclusive govts in South Asia that were the forerunners of our contemporary societies. But I agree, enough is enough...India nad Pakistan should knock off the drama already...

Happy New Years All!

Re: Romair

``...Pakistan cannot just start handing over its citizens to India, as and when India wants...``

Quit deluding yourself by extrapolating Indian demands to any and all citizenes of Pakistan. You know, just as well as us and several Pakistani commentators (both on chowk and in Pakistani newspapers) that Indian demands are for very specific individuals for some of whom there are international Interpol arrest alerts. It is precisely this type of ambivalence and moral fog that gets fools into trouble.