Enough is Enough

Shankarji :

Inshaallah, the stalemate is about to be broken. The ISI-jihadis in Pakistan is about to receive serious setbacks. This will benefit Pakistan as much as it benefits India.

Arnaud de Borchegrave, not an Indian propagandist, wrote in the Washington Times, that the Lashkar and the Al-Qaeda are interchangeable.

Khaled Ahmed, not an Indian propagandist, wrote in the Friday Times that Talibanism is not native to Afghanistan and is an ISI export.

This is not about ``somebody`s fault``. This is about the excision of a cancer. Christopher Hitchens, not an Indian propagandist, wrote in Vanity Fair, about this cancer : ``And I wish that those in the West who harbor softhearted illusions about Muslim grievances could see and hear General [Hamid] Gul (rhymes with ``ghoul``). He is not an oppressed peasant. He is Pakistans Pinochet: a militaristic and privileged thug, fattened for many years on American subsidies.``

It is STRATFOR analysts, and not Indian propagandists, who wrote ``With al Qaeda and Taliban elements fleeing Afghanistan, the United States will continue to grapple with strategic problems concerning its traditional ally, Pakistan. There are significant differences between what President Pervez Musharraf has said he will do to fight terrorism, what he intends to do and what he actually can accomplish. The threat of an imminent Indo-Pakistani war may be just the lever Washington needs to move Islamabad.``

Also this is a RAND assessment :

Regardless of the psychological gratification that might accrue to a strategy of “giving Pakistan a bloody nose,” New Delhi will continue to exhibit substantial restraint—despite an occasional lapse precisely because it seeks to secure geopolitical goals much larger than simply humiliating Islamabad.

We can hope that we do not lapse this time.

-Arun Gupta

[Some of us, like Noah`s family, will be saved from this Armageddon, safely ensconsed in the West.]

Scientists believe that cockroaches will survive nuclear wars and perpetuate their species.

So YOU don`t have to hide in the West to survive a nuclear holocaust.

``...I think its pointless to debate ``who`s at FAULT``...``

Shankar, is it also pointless to abjure violence?

what the $#@! are you babbling about shrinker?

Thank you, Shankar. Effectively disconcerting, especially the closing paragraph.

Do you think we will be able to live with the guilt of having survived this massacre of innocents, on both sides of the line. How many people have to be mercilessly slaughtered before it is enough? I read somewhere that peace is merely the silence between wars. Living as we are now, I am tempted to agree with that.

May God help us all, for only He can protect us from the horror that threatens to consume.

Aamir

Shankar Sahib, you are absolutely right.

``Enough is Enough``


HELP TO STOP WAR IN SOUTH ASIA

All who value peace and human life need to intervene and stop war in South Asia. India and Pakistan are poised to engage in such a misadventure as their respective troops and missiles (possibly nuclear) face each other on their border and on the Line of Control in Kashmir. This is happening while we in the United States are busy watching the news from neighboring Afghanistan.

People of Indian and Pakistani origin especially need to wake up to the reality of what kind of misery this conflict will produce. Our armchair warmongers of South Asian origin who now make their homes outside the region, in Europe, Canada and here in the United States need to get a large dose of reality.

Some Pakistanis are arranging a peace march at a Northern California venue (exact date and place to be decided) this week and urge all from the South Asian (aka “Desi”) Diaspora and their friends to protest against the possibility of war between India and Pakistan. I hope that Americans will join us and show solidarity with the pursuit of sanity in the region. Let us have a happy, peaceful and prosperous new year in a part of the world where the misery of poverty already rules the streets. Help us stop this looming war.

Exactly how many innocent Kashmiri Muslim civilians have the Indian occupationist forces killed in the past 12 years? Used to be 30,000 then 50,000; stabilised at 70K for a while... now Urstruly has raised the bid to 80,000 (post#96).

Would be nice to have a head-to-head comparison of the civilians killed and women raped by Indian occupationist forces on the one hand and the god-fearing freedom-fighting jehadis on the other. Bids invited.

SM

Shankar wrote:

Sigh...I guess you are relatively new to Chowk. This business about what people think of me--I`ve explained several times in the past; so its getting BORING. But I guess I have to do it time & again--because ALAS; extremist Indian sh *theads like you pop your ugly heads over & over again on Chowk. I thought that maybe if I just smirk & ignore mofos like you, you will disappear--but no; you post over & over again about how much you hate me--like an annoying mosquito, buzzing in my ear.

## Yeah well... at least I got your attention.... had to upset poor anNy in the process, but it got your tongue wagging dinnit? (and no, I`m not new to Chowk, just newly found my voice)

Besides; now you`ve gone & pissed off anNY & then have the balls to talk to her in a patronising, condescending manner. BIG MISTAKE pal. I pity you now:) Chowk vetrans have learnt this the hard way--NEVER EVER get these Pakistani shernis mad at you! They`ll eat you for lunch! They are more khatarnak than their ``world famous`` military!

## Bah! I won`t even bother dignifying that. Suffice to say, if you`re scared of a Paki, that too a woman Paki (with all their rights) you got problems buddy.

I used anNy as a bait, to get you to reply. Read my post to her again, her opinion means nothing to me. How on earth can a foreigner comment on Indian notions of patriotism?

OK, seriously, (sigh.. this sounds like a frikking broken record).. I feel VERY VERY good when a guy like you loses respect for me. In fact, I`m happy you`ve now lost respect for me COMPLETELY; rather than just a little bit. It proves to me that I`m on the right track when extremists (esp Indian extremists) hate what I say. As far as I`m concerned, guys like you are much more dangerous for India than any of those Paki fundos.

## You wouldn`t be feeling so smug and self-righteous if you really knew who I was or what I stand for. People like you (excuse MY broken record) think they are superior to the rest of their pathetic compatirots because they have the vision to look beyond national barriers and see the BIG picture. Which means knocking your own country because after all ``right is right and wrong is wrong``. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT. Get that into your skull (and maybe ease up on the mofos and dickheads for a while, it`s getting tiresome.)

The problem arises when there is a conflict - not between right and wrong - but between two rights. When the chips are down, I owe my own nation and its Government a lot more than I do General Mushy and Pakistan. So that`s where I will put my money (and my heart).

Hey, I got no problem if Indians are angry at Pakistani jehadis for the attack on the parliament or the low intensity war they are conducting in Kashmir. I am too. I also feel that the GoP is responsible (directly or indirectly) for this crap. Personally, I dont feel Mushy knew about this attack. I dont care much for his anti-indian stance--but he`s not an idiot. He`s probably the most astute Pakistani leader that they have produced--in my lifetime, at least.

## Just because he is astute, doesn`t necessarily mean he is good from India`s point of view. Just remember nations have INTERESTS not friends, and it will make your thinking a lot clearer. If you think I have no Pakistani friends you are seriously mistaken. But in a time of conflict, I will support my own governement to the hilt. trust me: you won`t find me organising protest marches demanding to know how many kids Vajapyeejee has killed today. Which does not again mean I will take any sh1t from the Government, just as I refuse to take any from you or your bunch or pacifist cohorts.

But that does`nt mean India is this innocent victim of terror & her hands are clean. In that respect, I COMPLETELY agree with Romair--right is right & wrong is wrong. What India has done in Kashmir is something I`m ashamed of--Pakistan or no Pakistan. Just because GoP is wrong, does`nt automatically mean that the GoI is RIGHT! What we disagree, probably, is the WAY each country is going about correcting those wrongs.

## What India has done in Kashmir has been what we have done in every other area: ignore the problem, refuse to acknowledge it exists till one day it becomes so big it threatens to swallow you whole. Forget pre-1989, that was one sordid saga of greed and opportunism by everyone involved (Raja Harisingh, the Abdullahs, the Congress). But after 1989, ever since the freedom struggle went militant what HAS the Indian governemnt done? Sent in the Army to protect its sovereign territory? What have the Pakis done: sent in Afghans, Chechens, Saudis and Sudanese who have fukkall to do with the problem , with guns and bombs and a promise of 72 virgins in the afterlife to kill people irrespective of religious background in the most cowardly ways possible? You make the choice Shankar, mine is made.

That, I feel is the MAIN reason why the rest of the world is assiduously neutral. I think both moderate Indians & Pakistanis agree that India & Pakistan are 2 fleas fighting for the same dog.

## The reason the world is assidiously neutral is because that idiot Pandit Nehru took it to a platform it didn`t belong in: the UN. And because Pakistan has been a faithful lackey of the US since the 50s. Now that the cold war is over, America suddenly realises that it has a lot more to lose by pissing off India, a secular, progressive democracy (and never mind those posts ranting about us being babykilling barbarians) than a country so confused it doesn`t even remember if it was meant to be Islamic or democratic or both and has turned to an opportunistic ambitious armyman for guidance, who they will soon realise does little more than blow hot air when cool thinking is the order of the day.

What I cant STAND about extremists like you & chandan is that your testesterone has corroded your brain cells. You want to settle this, once & for all, in a war. If I misunderstand you, I apologise, in advance.

##You do misunderstand, and your apology is completely unnecessary. You have every right to speak your mind, as I do, and this is one of the beautiful things about living in this country. I can even condone the unforgiving manner in which our Oppopsition mauls the Govt over the coals at the slightest opportunity, because frankly that`s their job, and screw the ulterior motives. So peace brother, I hear you. I may not agree with you, sure, but I respect your right to an opinion just as I respect my own.

Just use whats left in your brain cells for a minute. Romair may disagree with me, but its true India has not lost a conventional war with Pakistan. But their military isnt a pushover. Even in a conventional war, India wont be able to just walk into Pakistan. I`m sure even someone as stupid as you will agree that the Indo-Pak military disparity isnt as great as the US & her allies faced in the Gulf war. Pakistan will give us as good as they can get. Besides an attacking military is always at a disadvantage & generally takes a lot more casualties.

## Agreed. We`ve all read Catch 22 here. No need to go over all that again. But there comes a point when going to war is the only logical choice. I have a feeling that time is now. World opinion is firmly for India and anti-Pakistan. Nobody believes General Mushy. It`s Pakistan who`s attcking our legislative houses and bombing our civilians. Even public sentiment for the first time in years is veering towards a war (check out todays` newsitem on the Bravery Award winner kid who wants to go and kill Pakis as soon as he grows up. That`s not healthy- blind hatred like that needs an outlet).

So, what the HELL will India win; even if it ``prevails`` ultimately in a conventional war (not to mention with horrendous casualties)? ``Stamping out the Pakistani fundos`` is just as fuzzy an objective as the US had in Vietnam (stamping out Communist fundos). Even if the Indian army, battered & bloody (though ``victorious``) raises the Indian flag in Islamabad or Azad Kashmir; they will have to continue to fight until almost every Pakistani civilian is murdered by them. Even you cant believe its a realistic objective!

## I don`t think that IS the objective. For me, and many others tha objective is simply to get Pakistan out of our hair and let us lead our boring comfortable lives. Kashmir is the key. Obviously we won`t give it up because that would only mean that the Nagas, Bodos, Gurkhas, khalistanis and god alone knows who else (Tamils? Telugus? Keralites?) with any grouse at all with the Govt. will pop right back up with their demands for secession. So the only logical way out is to engage in a full-fledged war with Pakistan on an issue of principle. Whatever the outcome of such a war, we have to fight it. And there is enough anecdotal evidence to believe that we would emerge victorious from a full-scale war.

Maybe this sh1t can be settled once and for all and at least our kids will learn to grow up without being plagued by that monkey Pakistan on their back (pun unintended, but take it anyway).

And thats just a conventional war. I dont want to even BEGIN to think of the ramifications of a NUCLEAR war!

## There is no deispute over the ramifications of a Nuclear war. Go study Game Theory again. The threat of Mutual Assured destruction is what prevents (or at least is supposed to prevent) the nuclear war. God protect us from mad mullahs who think they can nuke us and survive.

The days of Indo-Pak military ``wars`` are OVER; at least rational people on BOTH sides should ACCEPT that its over. There`s got to be a better way to score ``brownie points`` over the other side than mass military mobilisations.

## The so-called rational ones are in a minority, or at least, confined to this side of the border. Rationality cannot rule when the other side is irrational. It has to work both ways.

Inshallah, this current crisis seems to be winding down. But, I`m afraid this is going to happen again & again. All it requires a few extremists in either military to ``settle this one way or another``. Once the ball starts rolling, NOBODY will be able to stop it.

## Look, Shankar, given a choice nobody wants a war. It`s not an easy decision to take at all. Probably you and I might not even survive it. But the current situation is such that Pakistan preceives our reluctance to engage in conventional warfare as weakness. THIS I CANNOT TOLERATE. If we back off now, it would be cowardice. What use are principles if you are wiling to forsake them just to maintain a fragile peace?

If saying ``Enough is Enough`` is being a wus--I`m PROUD to be a wus. I wish you could look at my face; to see if I really CARE what ch---, I mean dickheads, like you think of me..

## Then fine.... you got your fifteen minutes now blow.... what use is it having opinions if you don`t care to listen to those of others? Just one word of warning: if push comes to shove and there is a war, don`t be looking to your Pakistani friends to shower you with affection and support. Because at the end of teh day, whatever their faults, they are patriots. You, like Arundathi Roy, have chosen to secede. I wish you well, but don`t you dare ``represent`` me our my countrymen again.

Regards,

SM

re: Romair # 99

Romair,

I agree with you that most Indians do not know enough about Pakistan or Pakistanis. Unfortunately, the level and quality of dialogue on Chowk provides ample proof that Pakistanis, in general, even highly educated ones, are equally ignorant of India.

Romair, ignorance is certainly dangerous. And we are all suffering the consequences of our ignorance of the other. Much more dangerous, however, is our ignorance of our ignorance.

Regards.

Romair #95:

I have read your post with interest. However, I disagree with what you have said. India screwed up in 1947 by not going after the `tribals` in PoK, when the India-Pak military difference was greatest, IMHO. So, we can pretty much forget about getting back PoK, at least for a long while (unless Pakistan disintegrates on its own and we can reclaim PoK without much cost).

But where we really screwed up was Indira Gandhi and Rajiv`s actions in rigging elections, dismissing Farooq (in early 80s), playing the usual politics that Indira did as in Punjab, AP etc. That led to the uprising in 1989.

Finally, I think Art 370, non Kashmiris not being allowed to settle / buy property there etc is another hindrance. We should have gone for social assimilation (like the Borg), as China is doing in Tibet and Pakistan in PoK by resettling Punjabis and other Pakistanis in PoK.

The alleged HR violations by Indian armed forces are regrettable. But I think some amount of HR violation is inevitable when you have such a long drawn insurgency and the local populace aiding the militants. It is not as if it is Indian state policy to commit HR violations, they are exceptions. That the tortures in custody etc happen is not surprising given that it is resorted to by police everywhere in India (check out the number of custody deaths) - this is something to be handled at a different level. However, they are nothing in magnitude to the terrorist attacks by the militants on civilians in J&K.

So what is the way forward? I dont think India should agree to any sort of autonomy for any part of J&K. If possible, we should get rid of Art 370. What is required is a realisation by Kashmiris that if they give up violence, they can live with dignity and peace in India. If they give up violence, the rest of the Indian people will not tolerate electoral rigging etc, the locals will have the govt they want. With peace comes economic prosperity.

You talked about `if India loved its Kashmiris, it should set them free`. I think what is required is India should woo its Kashmiris back, reduce the alienation, and win their hearts and minds. Till then we can only hunker down and fight it out with the militants.

You mention the independence option for parts of J&K - I totally disagree for many reasons, not least being about India`s unity and soverignity. Kashmir is the source of six rivers, three of whom flow into the granary of India (Punjab). It is a matter of simple food security (leading to other forms of security). A Kashmir not in our control would mean the scruff of our neck would be in others` hands, sorry guys no way. That is surely all the more reason we will be willing to sacrifice more lives to protect Kashmir.

Shankar

ahhh you have finally silenced me.

Re: Romair

``...If they want Pakistan`s help, then they should get it. If they don`t, then Pakistan should stay out...``

And how do you determine what they want? Does Pakistan conduct elections in Kashmir to determine that? These `feel good` shibboleths are what fog your judgment, and allow you to make crass statements like the one above. Did you (or Pakistan) `determine` what the Afghans wanted? Did you `ask` before occupying Afghanistan and turning into a terror factory for the world? Here is a damning indictment from the San Francisco Chronicle:

``...What made Taliban-ruled Afghanistan so useful to Islamabad was that various anti-Indian Kashmiri guerrilla groups could be trained there, under the watchful eye of Pakistani intelligence officials, while giving Pakistan a degree of ``deniability`` about its involvement in anti-India actions. Afghanistan became a safe haven for Kashmiri guerrillas, just as it had for Osama bin Laden`s al Qaeda network...``

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/01/06/MN136052.DTL

Check out `Why terrorism fails, and why insurgencies sometimes succeed` in The Friday Times

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/news2.htm

shankar #97: ``Maybe become ylh`s information minister``

Actually my eyes are on becoming the Minster of Science and Technology of an independent Kashmir :-) The house my mother grew up in is in downtown Srinigar, somewhere. My grandparents and my mother left it fully furnished, with all their life`s belongings, when they migrated to the outskirts of Muzzafarabad. So I could probably move back in.

``IT has no shortage of S.Asians; but politics in that region have been screwed up by too many idiots.``

I agree. South Asians in IT get along extremely well. Infact, outstandingly well. I have never had a single problem with any of the Indians in IT, and vice-versa. Organizations like TiE are operating well. Infact, the head of TiE, Kanwal Rekhi, recently personally went to Lahore and Karachi, met with Musharraf, and opened the TiE Pakistani chapters.

``After coming to Chowk, I have a much ``healthier`` opinion of Pakistanis---& you have played a large role in it--along with several others.``

This is quite good. My opinion of Indians was already quite healthy, since I meet more Indians than Pakistanis, on a daily basis. Infact, I meet more Indians than Americans in my professional life. Sometimes I feel like I took the wrong flight, and landed in India, instead of the US.

I do think that Indians have very little understanding of Pakistan. Just like Pakistanis have very little understanding of Hinduism. Pakistanis do understand Indians quite a bit better than vice-versa, however. This is due to the large numbers of Indians one meets outside Pakistan. And primarily due to the gigantic influx of Indian media into Pakistan, and Pakistan`s acceptance of it. I have lived in the extreme remotest parts of Punjab and NWFP. Places where there are barely any roads. However, there are two institutions that have been present in everyone of those places: A mosque, and an Indian video shop.

Every single one of the military bases I was stationed at had an Indian video shop that did booming business. One of Pakistan`s major military aircraft bases (where everyone is probably on alert, right now) has an Indian video shop right next to the mess hall. Officers would eat lunch, rent an Indian video, go back to their rooms, put on Indian music, and review their practice strike plans against Indian targets. I have done that myself. I can make a bet if you go into Musharraf`s house, you will find Indian movies sitting next to his VCR. Zia-ul-Haq was a big fan of Dilip Kumar (gave the guy a Nishan-e-Imtiaz, Pakistan`s highest civilian award, for not particular reason), and Shatughan Sinha. When my class at a military academy had its final graduation party/picnic, one of the entertainments was and Indian movie. Strange but true.

I don`t think anything like the above exists in India. Due to this, Indians extrapolate their views of Pakistan, based on their views of Indian Muslims, and on what the Indian media feeds them. There is nothing to counterbalance that view. Hence Indian`s views of Pakistan are either non-existent, or incorrect. In Pakistan, due to the above described reasons, there is a lot to counterbalance Pakistan`s official view on India.

In any case, my prediction is that if Musharraf and Vajpayee cannot resolve the issues, then things are going to get worse, and not better. Pakistan is slowly getting stronger, and not weaker. With the recent crackdown on the extremist religious groups, Pakistan`s domestic society, and international reputation, is only getting better. If Pakistan`s economy gets to its traditional 6%+ growth rate (which it had for forty years), then Pakistan could start putting up a tougher negotiating stance with India (which would be unfortunate). Similarly, if the BJP does end up doing better in the recent elections, due to the war rhetoric, then that could set a precedent. And it will become difficult for Vajpayee to ignore that. And if the BJP stays in power without Vajpayee, and Advani takes over, then I don`t know what will happen.

The future of South Asia will always be decided by India, and what it does. The other countries are far too small to take a leadership position. So the person running India controls the future of all the SAARC nations, in his/her hands; not only that of India. If India plays a role like the US does with NATO countries, I don`t think the other countries will have any problems accepting it as the leader (I certainly wouldn`t have a problem). Infact, the other countries, including Pakistan, are hoping and waiting for India to do so.

I would actually be much happier if Pakistan were to become India`s Canada, rather than China`s Canada (Cantonese and Mandarin movies don`t do too well in remote parts of Pakistan). But for that to happen, India has to behave like the world`s fairest democracy, and not the world`s biggest democracy. Giving independence to a mere 2100 sq. miles of land, with no oil, natural resources, or strategic value, to better the future of one-fifth of humanity, logically speaking, should be an easy choice to make.

It has been fun interacting with you, as usual. I am hoping that India is drowned by marginalizing policies of BJP (which could split India into two societies), thereby allowing Pakistan to emerge victorious :-) That is why sane Indians like yourself, and my IT colleagues scare me.

re: Romair

``...Could you point out exactly where in this is the word, ``violence.`` ...``

This is what you said in post #84:

``What if it (Pakistan) then says, it doesn`t want a Kashmir solution? It could just bleed India.``

So, you used the phrase `bleeding India`, not violence. Big deal. It won`t fool us. That is exactly what Pakistan has been engaged in for 2 decades. It also addresses the point that Shankar made when he said: ````Please dont dare me to show which posts you have done that (with righteous indignation, to boot). I dont have the time or the patience to hunt them down.``

Urstruly,

Whoah! For a guy who has no problems throwing stones at the other side & hitting people below the belt; youre righteous indignation at ``character assassination`` doesnt cut any ice with me.

I`m amused at the fact that you stomped out of Chowk when you thought that women were being mistreated & then came back with your usual bs flair.

Go ahead & sulk in your own indignation for all I care. Consider this while you stew in your outrage: ``People who live in glass houses should not throw stones``.

On the other hand, maybe youre tantrum was a way of ducking a very uncomfortable question--let me repost it, for your benefit--

````Since you take great pride in not ducking questions--Please explain to me why such a lack of conscience in the Ummah?````

Now, you are more than welcome to reply this with stony silence. I will reserve the right to draw my conclusions.

Thank you.