Enough is Enough

May Allah turn recession on its head and bring back the golden era of dot coms sending dollar bills stapled to their merchandise. This will allow ROmair to get some work and save us the mortal ones from enduring his sermons.

Ameen sum Ameen.

later

-sac

Re: Romair on Advani

``...The main advocate of the current potential military conflict is Mr. Advani...``

Did Advani give you a call to confirm this? Or is it clever guesswork on your part?

Romair, go and obtain the facts of Liberhans Commission (the Commission of Inquiry to look in the Babri Masjid fiasco), and find out how Advani was subpoenaed and forced to testify. The Commission is still active, and nobody is off the hook until the matter remains subjudice. Is there any such judicial commission inquiring into the activities of the JeM/LeT, (until India stepped up its protests and compelled Musharraf to act)? None of this is to say that the demolition was not barbaric -- it was. The law is taking its course, slowly but surely -- whether Advani likes it or not.

Dear Romair (#58)

You are correct when you say that when Mr. Advani advocates war he is doing what the majority of Indians want him to say. But tell me this: it was hardly three years ago when our PM, with the full support of the Indian electorate and his cabinet, went to Lahore on a peace mission. The same BJP that you blame now for advocating war, at that time was busy touting the trip as the major achievement of its one year in office. This was clearly becoz they beleived that the Indian people approved. Now the same Govt. is buckling up for war, and again with a nod from the Indian people. All within three years! Clearly Indians did not initially want war. But they would not mind one now.

Do you think that this vast change in the national mood is just due to the manipulations of the ``fascist`` BJP which has fooled a billion plus people? Even if one accepts the Pakistani govt.`s claims that it has no control over the jehadi outfits operating from its territory, has Pakistan no responsibility if it feeds and keeps the dog which crosses the fence and bites the neighbours?

Whether there is enough evidence or not to convince an international jury, for better or for worse, the Indian public has made up its mind and passed a guilty verdict. The decision was not a hasty one, it has been two decades in the making. And the verdict also seems to be accepted by the world community at large, and now it seems by Pres. Musharraf too. The question is where do we go from here?

-narain

Re: Shankar

{{Sitting in USA surely you can lecture people about peace..}}

You goddamned mofo, you sit in the US & lecture the ``subcontinent`` about war! nuclear war?! Cost-benefit ratio?

On top of that, you hypocritical besharam claim to have attended that ``peace rally`` in San Jose?!!, shake hands with the owner of Chowk & advocate the benefits of war on Chowk?!

Harimou,

Did you invite this chut from your RSS shaka?!



Without stooping to your language I just want to make clear I dont have any sympathies for RSS nor pseudo Peaceniks like you. I believe war is sometimes really necessary for durable peace. Choice for cowardly ``peace`` is very easy to make for weaklings like you. But choice for a war for ``durable peace`` only braves can make and they do have ignore voices like you.

As for calling me ``chut``. Its very amusing.. Did u use to denigrate me!! If yes there shows your RSS or whatever India male ``samskaras`` you subconsciously have, which makes you feel that female genetalia is the dirtiest thing in the world. Tell this to all of the female readers here, tell this to your female near and dear ones.. Ask their opinion about it.. So Shankar tell me did you stop eating your mother`s food when she used to have those days, if you consider ``chut`` to be so dirty. If you are married, do you step out of your house for small ``weekend`` vacation when your wife has those days. Stupid moron you accusing me from RSS, you show a backward mentality of 16th century. You basically prove that spatial dislocation hardly changes the mentality. I you have real shame or realization of stupid comment you made, you should apologize to all the female folks here.

Shammi, Romair, Tahmed, Shankar

Err...yes...if you have checked today`s NYTimes (which, honestly, I haven`t had a squint at today) there doesn`t seem to be any huge surprises here...Tahmed I want to bring up a point you made on another board, which was roughly, Pakistan must face the reality that it is being taken for hostage by fundamentalist terrorist orgs., and on top of that, a need to feel everything is a conspiracy...is there a country that is as unique and special as Pakistan in that there are secret military groups that want to frame us in terrorist attacks? (oh dear, lapsing into sarcasm...)

The main advocate of the current potential military conflict is Mr. Advani of the BJP (I should say India, since Indians elect the BJP). He seems to have dominated the otherwise moderate Vajpayee. Advani`s claim is that he is against religious extremism in Pakistan. Point taken. So are 99.9% of Pakistanis. However, Advani is so much against religious extremism that he is willing to declare war on Pakistan, without any legal proceedings. Most Pakistanis, like myself, are willing to arrest criminals in Pakistan, and even hand them over to India, provided a neutral trial is held, and evidence is provided. But Mr. Advani doesn`t believe in such concepts for Pakistanis. He only believes in them for himself.

If memory serves me correctly, wasn`t Mr. Advani himself wanted in one of the most irrational cases of religious extremism ever carried out anywhere in the world. Tearing down a mosque is bad. Tearing down a mosque as a symbol of national identity, and as a part of one`s party`s manifesto (www.bjp.org) is even worse. Tearing down a mosque, which results in deaths second only to those that occured in the WTC is pathetic. Doing so in one`s own country against one`s own minority population is uncomprehensible. After doing that, then getting elected as the no. 2 leader in one`s country is out of this world. After gettting elected, then declaring war (potentially nuclear) against a neighbor for harboring religious militants, but not agreeing to a trial in an international court makes me speechless.

Shouldn`t India first carry out trials against Mr. Advani, before it declares war on Pakistan? People who may think of tearing down a Shia or Sunni mosque, or temples etc. are being banned and arrested in Pakistan. They can never win a single seat, much less become the no. 2 person in power.

Such people, however, seem to be calling the shots in India. Perhaps Indians should worry about their own Lashkars first.

``Ministers accused

The high court`s decision paves the way for criminal proceedings against those accused of crimes relating to the demolition and the riots that followed.

But the court rejected the notice served against eight politicians from the ruling party, the BJP, including the Home Minister LK Advani.

LK Advani: Off the hook

Three years ago, a local court decided there were sufficient grounds to charge the ministers as well as the the hardline Hindu leader Bal Thackeray.

But the high court dismissed that verdict on technical grounds.`` (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1166000/1166448.stm)

shankar #45: ``I am absolutely certain that India has shown evidence to the US. I`m also certain Bush is convinced by the evidence. Why the heck would Bush twist Mushy`s arm if he isnt convinced about the evidence?``

The world will become a very dangerous place if the President of the USA, or of any other country (including India and Pakistan), is given the position of the ultimate judge. That is something people should be fighting against, not supporting. Americans themselves never allow the the President any power over their own judiciary. How can you, as an American support the US President as the world`s chief judge?

Luckily that stage has not been reached. Nor will it ever be reached. There is no law in the world that states that Bush can unilaterally decide the legalities or illegalities of international affairs. At least, I do not know of any such law. Perhaps the UN should be done away with, as should the ICJ. And the US President should be given the power, which he doesn`t even enjoy in his own country`s national affairs, i.e. the power of judiciary on all international affairs.

One cannot just start a war, or support it, because one feels (doesn`t know, just feels) that Bush has been shown evidence. Has Bush stated that he has been shown evidence? No. India is not even ready to involve the FBI? Why not? Even if he had been shown evidence, why not present all the evidence at the correct authority, i.e. the ICJ? India does not trust Pakistan, does it not trust the ICJ either, or the UN? Even in case of the US, it only trusts the US when it supports India; not when it gives a decision against India.

If we do accept the scenario that the President of the US is the final judicial authority, then we need to accept all his decisions. He has also stated that the Kashmiris should have self-determination. Why not listen to that, as well?And if India is not listening to that, then should Pakistan move its forces to the borders and be in a constant state of active war with India, because India is unwilling to uphold Bush`s decision.

Bush has been pressurising Musharraf for a long time to limit the actions of certain organizations. Long before Dec. 13. Musharraf himself jailed many leaders of the religious extremist and even non-extremist parties before Dec. 13, and after Sep. 11. These are five organizations out of a total of 280 in the whole world, that the UN has highlighted, that exist in Pakistan. Pakistan has banned those.

Let me open up my psychiatry encyclopedia:

1. ``self-fulfilling prophecy - The prediction of events that do in fact come about, because of one`s belief in the prediction and enactment or lack of enactment on that belief, thus reinforcing the belief, i.e., if a person or group predicts and deeply believes that certain events will come about, that person or group will (sometimes unconsciously) modify behaviors or engage in those behaviors that will create those situations that will cause the predicted events to come about. Robert K. Merton developed this concept out of his interpretation of W. I. Thomas` ``definition of the situation,`` i.e., ``If men define things as real, they are real in their consequences.``

Indian arguments are supporting the above prophecy. India wants to blame Pakistan for its internal problems. It will view all evidence or lack thereof, all actions of Bush, all international organizations decisions, in such a manner that support its prophecy. However, it will avoid the logical solution of presenting evidence openly and honestly to International Courts, which are specifically created to solve such crises.

As an example, suppose India today makes a request to the US stating that Mr. Shankar has been making anti-BJP statements on Chowk, and that the BJP has proof that Shankar is a terrorist. Hence the USA should extradite Shankar to India, however India will not release any evidence to the USA or to any international court. However, it does seem to some Indian commentators that India has released evidence to the President of Zambia. The Zambian President himself has not stated anything about the evidence. The Zambian FBI has not been allowed by India to investigate. But the Zambian President seems to be pressing the USA to jail Shankar. Under such a situation, should Mr. Shankar be handed over to India, immdiately by the USA, without a local or international trial?

Since we are on the subject of terrorism, did you know that the current Ambassador of Afghanistan to India, Mr. Khalili, was part of a Northern Alliance hijacking of a Pakistani school bus. India is one of the strongest supporters of the leaders of the Northern Alliance. Please check out the amount of terrorism people like Dostum and the other NA high flyers have carried out in Afghanistan, at www.rawa.org. Perhaps India should pile up its forces on the Afghanistan border also, if it wants to assist in rooting out international terrorism.

In the past year, out of the 250 suicide bombings, 160 were carried out by the Tamil Tigers (who by the way are Hindus and not Muslims; not that it makes any difference to me, but it may to our Indian contributors). If I remember correctly, didn`t India have a hand in creating these guys, and supporting them? At least that is what the BBC says. So Indian should pile up forces on the Sri Lankan border, as well.

And Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi were actually assasinated by Pakistani problems, not due to anything inside India. And we all know, ``Who framed Roger Rabbit.`` Of course it was the Pakistanis. So lets attack Pakistan for that, also.

Proof Shmoof and international judicial trials; who the hell cares about ridiculous concepts like that. Let`s just nuke each other.

My point being that Pakistan has just as many complains against India, if not more, than India has against Pakistan. There are many issues on which Bush has not supported the Indian view (including Kashmir). The way to solve all these complains is not to threaten an all out war, without proof.

In case of Kashmir, where Indian minister himself has admitted 61,000 deaths, Pakistan has proof in the form of UN Resolutions, which were based on the work done by two Americans: Admiral Nimitz and the father of Madeline Albright, were signed by the US, and have been supported by each US President since WWII, yet India is still not agreeing to them. Despite the above, Pakistan has not amassed armies on the India border, and is willing to talk to India.

How can India justify threatening war on Pakistan, due to the actions of six terrorists, resultling in less than ten deaths, for which no proof has been presented, and no resolution been passed by the UN, or any decision been given by an international court. I hate religious extremism just as much as the next guy, but I do believe in trials and proof.

``Indian, Pakistani FMs smile, chat

(Updated at 1630 PST)

KATMANDU: The foreign ministers of India and Pakistan smiled at each other and chatted, breaking weeks of tension between the nuclear-armed neighbors, during a gathering of South Asian nations on Wednesday.`` (NEWS, Pakistan)

I cannot believe this. The Indian Minister actually agreed to smile with the Pakistani Minister. I thought Indians he would first want Pakistan to end hostilities before they agreed to smile with Pakistan.......

Re: Saminashah

``...What I began to think about is the need of Pakistanis and the rest of the world, for proof...``

The Lashkar-e-Toiba (the leader of which India wants, and Musharraf has just arrested) has issued this threat against the Taj Mahal:

``...LUCKNOW, India (Reuters) - A Pakistan-based Kashmiri militant group, which India blamed for an attack on its parliament last month, has threatened to blow up the Taj Mahal, an Indian official said Wednesday...``

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020102/wl/southasia_india_tajmahal_dc_1.html

But don`t worry, Romair will never be convinced, and he will keep asking you for proof, and ask you to not read Indian propaganda (the above story is from Reuters, BTW, not Indian media)

Re: Shankar #43

I am pleased to learn that you and I agree on the moral absolutism that terrorism is bad no matter whatever the cause it purports to support.

``..I think he`s (Romair) a decent person...He justifies the ``1000 cuts policy``...``

We can discuss this in detail some other time. Let us start the new year on a more pleasant note.

Re: Romair

``...Pakistan should take the people who are on the list from India, and present them to the International Court of Justice...``

Romair, you have absolutely no understanding of the ICJ, do you? ICJ is not a criminal court for trying individuals. It will never accept the people that you want to be handed over to them. But, go ahead, and give it a shot.

You had also earlier said, ``why should Pakistan hand over Pakistanis to India...``

Well, turns out that most of the people on the list are not Pakistanis at all -- they are Indians. How does it feel to be repeatedly proven wrong in a public forum? Read this from the NY Times:

``...India is now trying to test General Musharraf`s intentions. On Monday it handed over a list of 20 people, most of them Indians, who are suspected of committing sensational acts of terrorism over the last 10 to 15 years. India says these accused men are fugitives who have been given sanctuary in Pakistan and must be handed over for trial here...``

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/02/international/asia/02INDI.html

Re: Romair to Saminashah

``...Why have you taken India`s word?...``

Because Samina reads more than just Indian words. She also reads the NY Times, which has this to say today:

``Senior officials said today that Pakistan`s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, had ordered the country`s military intelligence agency to cut off backing for Islamic militant groups fighting in the disputed territory of Kashmir...Although Pakistani officials questioned the evidence India had against the two groups, they acknowledged that the groups were responsible for about 70 percent of all attacks in Indian-ruled Kashmir in the last three years...as Lashkar- e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Muhammad took over. The militant groups shifted increasingly to political assassinations, car bombings and attacks on villages that killed large numbers of Kashmiri civilians, mostly Hindus and Sikhs as well as Muslims accused of collaborating with the Indian authorities.``

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/02/international/asia/02STAN.html

So, Romair -- begin the new year with a good deed -- speak the truth, and nothing but the truth. Not half-truths.

Romair,

I will admit that I am one of those South Asians-Americans who is wholeheartedly committed to negotiations and better relationships between the various countries in South Asia. While there are members of my Partition surviving family who still have ambivalent feeling towards the subcontinent, I have the particular experience of not only not having experienced the bitterness between the Pakistan and India, but also the experience of being more detached from emotionally laden nationalisms (be they Pakistani or American). This distance doesn`t make me better or worse off than the next Chowkie...and I am interested in listening to and respecting the various experiences and viewpoints coming from the Subcontinent.

Re: Evidence. It would not be entirely fair to dismiss those who are pretty sure Pakistani based groups are responsible for jihadi terrorist acts in South Asia as being slavish to India. While I agree with you that convincing evidence is necessary in evaluating any situation, honestly, Pakistan`s track record has not been inspiring in Kashmir, Afghanistan or Pakistan. We have supported the Taliban and other groups that use violence as a way of resolving disputes. These methods are inexcusable, no matter what India or Israel does, and we lose enormous credibility when we condone, facilliate and then refuse to acknowledge and address these groups. There is some element of denial that exists in the Muslim world; (as does in other countries...) what will it take for us to deal with the fundamentalism in Pakistan?

There is some conjucture from intellectual circles regarding bin laden`s guilt for the WTC; I have heard that Noam Chomsky delivered a lengthy speech at MIT last week on bin laden, and am waiting to hear it. Still, evidence links laden sahib to past bombings in Africa; he should be held accountable for those ``actions`` at the very least. (We Muslims seem less concerned about those acts of terrorism.) The videos of bin laden have convinced me as they have other Muslims like Ahmed Rashid. As other folk have pointed out, those who refuse to accept the presence of a network of extremist groups of which bin laden is part, do so willfully and shortsightedly.That the Pakistani govt. is investigating the saddening bombing in Pakistan and not rushing to blame India, is a step in a reasonable direction.

regards

soysauce

I am really hoping that an agreement is reached and de-escalation begins.

sadna

Thanks for the links. I shall be printing out the text for my relative. Btw, the situations of the Jewish women who lost their husbands in the WTC are very moving...how difficult that must be...

rsax

perhaps a coalition govt. along the lines of what is taking place in Afghanistan? Plus, an organization of Indian, Pakistani, Kashmiri, Bangladeshi, Nepalese, Sri Lankan, Uzbeki, Chinese, Irani, govts that are united in working together in humanely defusing extremist groups? A scenario that would occur in an ideal world, granted, but why not?

regards

Shankar,

You goddamm Hindu apologist, you been eating chili dogs too long. Please feel free to sit ``safely`` across the seas but be smart enough to keep your mouth shut. Or some poor misguided soul might actually make the mistake of taking you seriously.

Whatever happened to good old patriotism? Works fine in the US, huh? So how come us un-civilised people are not allowed to feel it? The Paki mufukkas (to borrow a DRUMZ term) have been screwing us in the asss too damm long. If you have adjusted to a nice comfortable state of denial don`t drag the rest of us into your morass.

I know exactly how people like you think: I am a ``liberated`` Indian, I do not identify with 90% of my countrymen, I have many Muslim friends, I know several nice Pakis, There is so much evil in Hindu society, Islam at several levels is superior to Hinduism: look at how Pakistani cricket team plays on Fridays! etc. You make me sick.

Lissen good: they been causing trouble in Kashmir since 1948 in the name of protecting their jaatbhais from the kafirs (that`s us). They tried not once, not twice, but four times, each time getting stronger and more insidious. Now they operate through their co-religionists by invoking Allah`s name, who have nothing to do with India or its problems. They have the nerve to call what is happening in Kashmir a ``freedom struggle``, in reality it`s nothing more than a ploy to get even for Bangladesh and to get back that K into Pakistan. Maybe they should consider changing their name to Pathetikistan. Very apt.

People like you, Shankar, are dead inside. Brought up as you are with a pervasive sense of guilt, you are pathetic apologists who can never have the courage to take a stance that will make you unpopular in your ``circles``. My advice is: do not belittle the sacrifices made by your fellow Indians whether they be soldiers dying on the front or farmers on the border who evacuate their whole villages to accomodate the army, or indeed Kashmiris, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, who live in fear and some glimmer of hope that one day the soldiers of Allah will leave them to their lives of peace and stop using them as pawns in their dirty games. Bloody Sudanese and Egyptians and Chechens aaye hai hero banne, can they even say they have solved problems in their own countries?

So shut up Shankar, because people like you will never understand how those ``liberal`` Pakis will laugh at you behind your back for being a cowardly Hindoo who doesn`t eat meat and worships 330 million Gods. And then grin like a moron and tell them sorry. It`s all you can do.

Shankar

The article is pathetic attempt to sideline the issues and maintaining a status quo

``I think its pointless to debate ``who`s at FAULT``--there will never be any agreement, just blame, justifications, shouting matches & insults. The end result will be the same--an angry stalemate.``

It is obvious where the fault is:

1. Fault is with those who refuse to act on UN resolutions.

2. Fault is with those who beat the drum of democracy and still deny the citizenship rights of their fellow citizens.

3. Fault is with those who use state machinery to murder 80,000 kashmiris, rape countless women, and murder innumerable babies.

4. Fault is with those who commit neked aggression on neighboring countries in Siachin and East Paksitan and then whine when favor is returned at Kargil

5. Fault is definitely with the people whose constitution is devils contract and kali maa`s wish list, under which laws such as Disturbed Area Act of 1990 is enacted and a bali of 80,000 humans is presented to kaali maa.

I can go on and on but you are right, everything will fall on deaf ears. That is what one can expect from the hindu nation of murderers, rapists, and baby-killers. Fault is also with us because we expect a human conscience from them.

saminashah #34: ``Admittedly, I was a bit taken aback by what I perceived as a healthy dose of denial; I have taken India`s word that the attack was carried out by Islamic terrorists. What I began to think about is the need of Pakistanis and the rest of the world, for proof.``

Why have you taken India`s word? Under what precedent.? There are some Pakistanis who have suggested the whole affair was stage managed by India, like the last fake hijacking. One could take their word also. Neither group has provided any proof. How about taking no ones word, until some proof is provided? This is how the world`s legal system works. The only country that can get away with attacking other countries without proof is the USA. And even it makes some effort to give some proof.

Insignificant concepts like proof seem to have lost merit in declaring people and countries to be criminal, or innocent. Does India hand over people to other countries without proof? No. But it does expect other countries to do so. Am I the only one who sees something illegal and illogical in this.

This is the primary reason for conflict. This is the primary problem that I have been highlighting also. Indians (and even a few Pakistanis) need to stop being brainwashed by the Indian govt. and media. Otherwise, the phrase, ``people want peace, govt. wants war`` loses its significance.

Yesterday night a bomb exploded in Karachi. Pakistan could blame it on India and pile up its forces on the border. Luckily, Pakistan is not doing that and is carrying out its own investigation.

I would strongly suggest that Indians look at reports from Human Rights agencies to figure out Pakistani Indian conflicts. Otherwise Indians will get us all killed. At least question (or answer) the fact that why has India gone out of its way to sideline international agencies, in all Indo-Pak conflicts, including the current one. The other option is to of course believe everything the BJP throws out, like a robot, and follow in its footsteps, like Indians are currently doing.

Pakistan should take the people who are on the list from India, and present them to the International Court of Justice. It should then tell India to present its case against those people in the International Court. Pakistan should also present a list of similar Indians to India and ask for the same. The ICJ should then give a decision on these people. And that should be accepted by everyone.

If India doesn`t accept the decision, or the ICJ, then I am afraid, it wants war for reasons other than what it is putting out.