Enough is Enough

Good to her that the new Afghan government has decided to erect the Bamiyan Buddha again (or a replica of roignal ones). This is in marked contrast with anti-statue Islamic culture and must be one of the few moments from the history of muslim majority nations to erect a statue of a non-Muslim relgion-founder. Happy New Years, yo all Afghans out there. Now teach Pakistanis how to erect a statue of Ashoka in Gandhara. It is a good start Afghanis. You must decide whether you would like to live in peace with yourself and your surrounding or keep fighting (jehad) against evil, fighting against enemies and fighting against ``Nafs`` including penis erection before marriage and restricted to in-bed only. Yo Afghans, erect Bamiyan Buddha and erect democracy, human rights and consensus based rule - way to go!!!!

romair #23 writes:

[begin quote]

If Pakistan was to threaten India with a military offensive of any kind, I would certainly speak out against it. I did it during Kargil. As would a lot of other Pakistanis. I would not call it a mutual problem. I would blame it specificially on Pakistan. Isn`t it about time, the Indians blamed the current military build up specifically on India?

[end quote]

You must truly be in a dream world. Indians are

murdered by the dozen by terrorists funded by

the ISI and ``tolerated`` by the Pakistani

goverment. The Srinagar Assembly is attacked

by a Pakistani suicide bomber with 38 killed;

the indian parliament is attacked by five

pakistanis with 10 killed. And you consider this military buildup

as some kind of excessive response! Wow, what

should the indians do, wait for their parliament

building to be fully destroyed first?

Let me turn this around: should extremists

from India ever attack any civilian institution

in Pakistan, I would personally lead a delegation

to our embassy demanding their extradition to

Pakistan. Of course, we will never hear the

converse proposition from any of you guys.

Why? Because you see, there are no extremists

in Pakistan, only freedom fighters!

``Peace`` vigil in San Jose:

I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:

1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan. Rest of the people present there were pretending as if they were representing American Indian voices too. They could not even bring any of their Indian friends (if they have any). Carrying the Indian flag they wanted to pretend to passing by people that they were mixture of Indians and Pakis.. This thing was really deceptive.

2. There was not a single mention of terrorism in the placards. As if to say that there is a war to start in South Asia out of blue, may be just because Indians and Pakis hate each other. Basically agenda rather than ``peace`` was ``save pakistan``.

3. I had a poster criticizing ``military dictatorships`` and saying ``Indians and Pakis are one``, I was accused of being ``divisive``, ``anti-peace`` and ``with hidden agenda``. So I guess another agenda was ``save mr. musharraf`` and keep floating the theory that muslim-hindu are separate people.

4. One of the organizer tried to read some crappy article from WPost basically whose import was ``hey Indians are basically Hindus and India-Pak difference is between hindus and muslims..``. When will Pakis start looking at the census figures. Sorry to break the news guys. For decades in India more muslims live than in Pakistan and even so more peacefully than any where, with more democratic rights than anywhere. So please stop giving BS that India-Pak dispute is abt Hindu-Muslim.

5. It seems organizers had special affinity to ``two nation theory``. The basic point was even if a nation is attacked and engaged in proxy wars for years, it should still maintain ``peace``. I Wonder organizers ever called for peace when innocent people get butchered by terrorists. Only when there is talk of retaliation from India, it seems they hear their scared relatives in Pakistan and then come out to talk about ``peace``.

6. Also common goal of meeting organizer was to beg Mr Bush to do some thing about South Asia. This shows how much ``peace`` they can achieve from this Bush the ``messiah of peace``.

Ok guys lick the * *lls of Bush or whoever powerful you can find around the world to save your terrorist regime or jehadi brothers.

But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it. I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected, but we do need to respond to this fascist evil scourge of Jehadism and free our Paki brothers from it too. So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.

Well founder of ``Chowk.com`` was also there. I complemented him on having a great website. Hope he does not completely share the views of rest of the organizers.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

India pullout troops from the borders

Nuclear Threat make Hindians Buckle ....he.he..he..he

India welcomes Pak action against terrorist



leaders

NDTV Correspondent

Monday, December 31, 2001 (New Delhi):

India has termed reports from Pakistan on arrests of leaders of terrorist outfits as a ``step forward in the correct direction``. India has blamed the Pakistan-based terrorist outfits, Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) and Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT), for carrying out the December 13 suicide attack on Parliament.

``If this information is confirmed, then it is a step forward in correct direction,`` External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh told reporters after a one and-a-half hour long meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) chaired by Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee.

He was replying to a question whether New Delhi was satisfied with actions being taken by the Pervez Musharraf regime against JeM chief Maulana Masood Azhar and LeT founder Hafiz Mohammed Saeed.

Singh said India had received information about ``some action`` having been taken by Pakistani authorities against LeT and JeM including arrest of leaders and raids being conducted on some premises of these organisations.

``We hope that such actions against terrorist groups targeting India including Jammu and Kashmir would be pursued vigorously and cross-border terrorism eliminated``, Singh added.

On the Pakistani demand that India should furnish evidence against these terrorist groups, Singh said ``It is strange to talk about this`` when the country was a victim of terrorist aggression.

``So far as the evidence of terrorist activities is concerned, it has been provided in a sufficient manner to international community``, he said adding it was largely on that basis that Islamabad had taken action against the terrorist outfits.

Singh said India would be handing over a list to Pakistan High Commission here of terrorists and criminals, who had taken refuge in that country. He, however, did not give out any further details including the number of terrorists and criminals named in the list.

He said India has been informing the Interpol about the activities of these terrorist outfits leading to ``red alert`` being issued against them by the Paris-based organisation.

On whether the government was satisfied with the US efforts to contain Pakistan sponsored cross-border terrorism, the External Affairs Minister said Washington had made a clear commitment to stamp out terrorism globally.

The Cabinet Committee on Security discussed essential issues concerning India`s security in view of the December 13 attack and also the international and regional developments after the incident.

Diplomatic means

Defence Minister George Fernandes today said while India was trying to make Pakistan accede to its demands over terrorism through diplomatic means, New Delhi would take whatever steps which become essential if these attempts failed.

``So far we have concentrated on the diplomatic offensive and this will continue till one concludes there is an end of the road in terms of diplomacy,`` he said.

Addressing troops of the Army and Air Force at several forward locations in the Western Sector, Fernandes said the diplomatic efforts were ``perhaps likely`` to bring results ``but in an unlikely event of this not happening, then one will have to take decisions and these decisions will be very demanding``.

He also took a broadside at the US, saying its objective in the war against terrorism was limited to catching or killing Osama bin Laden and had done nothing ``more than rhetoric`` in ``making Pakistan understand``.

Asserting that no decision had been taken so far on whether India should go to war to achieve a win against terrorism, Fernandes said ``efforts are on to resolve the situation through diplomatic efforts`` and Prime Minister Vajpayee and External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh were engaged in it at the moment.

Stressing that Pakistan still did not appear to be honest in its actions against terrorists, Fernandes said it ``should understand and accept how big a sin it has committed``.

``We don`t want any such situation where there could be a lot of loss in this region,`` he said, adding Pakistan has thrust the proxy war on India over the last decade and the world should see and make Islamabad desist from it. ``If it is not done, we will do whatever is needed,`` he asserted.

Lauding the G-8 statement asking Pakistan to meet the demands of India, he said it indicates ``we are on the right track``. He said the European Union, the US and the UK have also told Pakistan to act against terrorists.

Jaitley tells Pak to tackle terrorism on its eastern border

India has said that it has given Pakistan a list of terrorists involved in crimes in India and demanded they be handed over for trial.

``A list of terrorists involved in crimes in India has been given to Pakistan. If these terrorists are handed over, then certainly I think a situation more conducive to both the countries (for talks) can arise,`` Union Law Minister Arun Jaitley told CNN`s ``Late Edition`` programme.

Jaitley made the remarks when asked how close India and Pakistan were to a war. ``We do hope that such a situation does not arise where we have to go to a war. But the entire onus of that will depend on the kind of stand Pakistan takes,`` he said.

Asked if Prime Minister Vajpayee would talk to Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf at the Kathmandu SAARC summit next month, Jaitley said, ``Well, it does not appear that the situation Pakistan is creating is conducive to a dialogue.``

``Pakistan can`t be encouraging this kind of cross-border insurgency. In the attack on Parliament, all the five terrorists killed were Pakistanis. There has been voluminous evidence of involvement of organizations within that country (Pakistan) in this attack and then they say: Let us have a dialogue,`` the Law Minister said.

Referring to Pakistan Foreign Minister Abdul Sattar`s demand for evidence for acting against the terrorists, Jaitley said Maulana Masood Azhar heads an organization, which is responsible for the attack on Parliament and was released from Indian prison through ``the coercive process of hijacking a plane``.

``Does the Pakistan Foreign Minister still need evidence?`` he said. Jaitley said actions by Pakistan against terrorists could not be ``ornamental in terms of making public announcements and after a few days freezing their (terrorist groups) accounts allowing money to flow out``.

Jaitley said while Sattar had agreed to hand over Osama bin Laden, if apprehended in Pakistan, to the US, he cannot have a different standard when it came to terrorists on Pakistan`s eastern border.

Asked what India expected US President Bush to do to reduce Indo-Pak tension, he replied that the international community should have the same yardstick and same standard which was adopted for the Taliban and bin Laden in relation to the September 11 attack on US.

``Whichever part of the world terrorists commit offences should be treated at par and we expect the same standard to be applied.`` Jaitley added that greater pressure should be brought on Pakistan to act against terrorists and their organizations operating on its soil. (With PTI inputs)





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Re: Shankar

``...Youre goddamned right I ABJURE it!...``

Good. Now, do you concede that there is low intensity warfare being waged by Pakistan against India (a la against Afghanistan -- actually Pakistan `took over` Afghanistan through proxies)?

Re: Romair

``...Pakistan cannot just start handing over its citizens to India, as and when India wants...``

Quit deluding yourself by extrapolating Indian demands to any and all citizenes of Pakistan. You know, just as well as us and several Pakistani commentators (both on chowk and in Pakistani newspapers) that Indian demands are for very specific individuals for some of whom there are international Interpol arrest alerts. It is precisely this type of ambivalence and moral fog that gets fools into trouble.

Just checking in with my humble opinion...

I was talking to a relative for whom I have a great deal of respect. This relative is a highly educated professional who has lived in the US for the last 30 years, considers herself an American and is a moderate in her politics. I was a bit surprised when she questioned whether there was enough evidence in identifying the attackers of the Indian Parliament as Muslims or Pakistanis. Admittedly, I was a bit taken aback by what I perceived as a healthy dose of denial; I have taken India`s word that the attack was carried out by Islamic terrorists. What I began to think about is the need of Pakistanis and the rest of the world, for proof. While I know that there are some Chowkies who are understandably outraged by the attack (we should all be outraged) and the subsequent reluctance of Pakistanis in accepting that the attack originated from Pakistani militant groups; perhaps we need to respect the need of these unconvinced groups of people. Once the evidence is presented, there will be little argument as to where the responsibility lies. It is then up to Pakistanis to be courageous enough to accept the evidence and be committed to change, and to give up this very helpless culture of national victimhood.

A question I had asked on an earlier board focused on how conservative or Islamic various Pakistani institutions were. For example, how conservative/Islamic are the Pakistani police? Where are their sympathies viz Kashmir? Do these symapathies translate into an unwillingness to identify terrorist organizations? Can this unwillingness be a part of a greater problem Pakistan must deal with in addressing the fundamentalist element? (Thanks for your response Ali, but you didn`t answer my question)

I also think that the Kashmir issue MUST be addressed and answered by the Kashmiri people and India and Pakistan must be responsible in coming to the table with honesty and the willingness to let Kashmir be self determining. This does not mean that Pakistani terrorist groups or apologists can come up with all kinds of reasons that excuse terrorist actions in India, Pakistan or Kashmir. There is great potential for India and Pakistan to work out some solid negotiations here.

Shankar, I appreciated the complexity of your piece...I see us all as more interconnected than the title of your opinion might express...arguably we live in societies that are relatively successful experiments in plurality, diversity and democracy. I think there were various leaders and inclusive govts in South Asia that were the forerunners of our contemporary societies. But I agree, enough is enough...India nad Pakistan should knock off the drama already...

Happy New Years All!

Re: Romair to Shankar

Romair, I don`t think that you quite got Shankar`s point. Shankar was making a prognosis -- regardless of the past. You, however, were unable to move beyond the past. Happy New Year.

correction #23: ``This shows how evil Indians consider the Pakistan govt. and Pakistanis to be``

should read,

This shows Indians consider the Pakistan govt. and Pakistanis to be evil.

chandan ``Surely the end of fascism in Pakistan and end of India-hatred would take any agenda out of Indian hindua fascists..``

Are you suggesting that the BJP getting elected in India is Pakistan`s fault, also. What about the fact that Indian movies have excellent songs, but poor stories? And the fact that Indian cricket teams, despite having excellent batsmen, have poor bowlers? Is that Pakistan`s fault also? Does the ISI or Benazir or Musharraf hold a gun to every Indian`s head, when they vote for the BJP? What benefit does Pakistan get from getting a party elected in India, that is threatening to destroy Pakistan?

If Indians want to take the agenda out of the ``hindua fascists``` hands, as you have suggested, wouldn`t a better solution be to just not vote for them? And why exactly would the BJP threaten to attack Pakistan, if it knew that this would take the agenda in India out of its own hands. It would only threaten to attack, if it felt it could gain even more votes in India. The BJP itself is hoping its current threatening posture against Pakistan will increase its vote bank in Uttar Pradesh. Wouldn`t you agree?

I have met too many Indians, for too many years, on an hourly basis, to not know them well enough. I have noticed two things about them:

1. On a personal basis, they are very non-violent (while Pakistanis are quite easily provoked). In my ten years of working with hundreds of them, I have seen very few even get angry, much less fight.

2. Indians are quite gullible and believe everything that is thrown at them by their own media and govt. (while Pakistanis are extremely cynical and doubtful about what their govt. and press says); specially when it concerns Pakistan.

This second factor has finally started dominating the first factor, and hence the current war hysteria in India. Indians need to completely sideline their own media (and Pakistan`s media) and see what the international human rights organizations and press say about various Indo-Pak issues. And they need to at least realize there must be a reason why their govt. has banned or sidelined all international organizations from Indo-Pak conflicts. The reason is that the Indian govt. does not want Indians to get a neutral unbiased view of these points of confrontation.

P.S. If there is any Indian who thinks that a war in South Asia will only get Pakistan blown up, while India will survive, I would like to sell them a couple of used cars, and some old furniture in my attic.

Indians (and Pakistanis) should hope and pray that Musharraf keeps the cool head he has kept so far. Because Vajpayee seems to have become extremely hawkish.

saminashah #34
``What I began to think about is the need of Pakistanis and the rest of the world, for proof.``

I agree with you, India needs to put out a coherent account of its investigation since Dec 13 for the sake of ordinary Pakistanis and in order to shut up their idiot delusional columnists. IMO govt-to-govt enough information has been passed on by India for any govt. to be convinced, I donot think the US is taking this seriously merely because India is a growing market.

Those of us who read the Indian press are already acquainted with details which are not given wide coverage in the US press. Those who want to disbelieve will still disbelieve, like the bin Laden tape.

Let me summarize what the Indian police have said:
1. They found cellphones with numbers in the backpacks of the attackers.
2. They traced a number to a Kashmiri professor of Arabic in a Delhi college

3. They arrested him and a few others(mostly Indian Kashmiris), including a medical equipment saleman from Kashmir, Afzal who later spoke to two TV channels in India. They traced the car used in the attack, to whom it was sold and where.

4. This person Afzal identified the five attackers as all Pakistanis, even said one of the attackers was involved in the IC-814 hijacking in Dec 99(yet to be confirmed) and named the mastermind as a Jaish-e-Mohammad leader who is from Bahawalpur, Pakistan and operates in Indian Kashmir.


He even said the Pakistanis made calls to Karachi on the eve of the attack to bid goodbye to their families. One of the conspirators was supposed to watch Parliament proceedings on Indian Doordarshan, so that the attackers would know when Vajpayee arrived? and time their attack accordingly. But since there was a power cut, he couldnot give them the information so the attackers went ahead anyway.

The attackers had an altercation with another car driver on the way to Parliament and had to pay him off. He came forward later to tell the police about it.

More details:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/dec/16parl.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/dec/20parl10.htm
http://www.iht.com/articles/42850.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36985-2001Dec28.html
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/world/story/0,1870,93712,00.html
http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/Weekly2001/12.18.2001/India.htm
Day-by-day:
http://www.rediff.com/news/pattack.htm

The story was covered in the New York Times too. The articles are now archived, but one can search using the keyword `Afzal`.

Warning : Many people on chowk prefer to believe in jihadis pristine utterances than in ANY evidence put forth by Jews and Hindus (somehow religion is taken to undo the veracity of even the MOST conclusive evidence:)).

Talking of Jews. A NYT editor Jan Hoffman was interviewed on CSPAN some weeks ago and I watched it yesterday. She was in charge of the WTC obituary pages in the NYT and was being asked to relate her experiences of getting in touch with survivors and hearing the stories of the victims and compiling it for the newspaper.

One of her stories was really touching. Apparently, in Orthodox Jewish practice, if the husband goes missing and his body is not found, the wife remains in limbo about her marital status. So apparently, many Orthodox Jewish victims, who realised they weren`t going to even die in one piece, much less survive phoned their rabbis to give instructions for divorce or faxed divorces from their offices in WTC to spare their wives the agony of an uncertain status later. She called these divorces great acts of love. She is Jewish too and I am apprehensive of disrespecting all these people by relating their stories on a place like chowk :(.

#34 saminashah

You know it`s a little too late for providing proof or evidence or whatever else to pakistan. There`s a war coming and soon. Vajpayee has been put into the position of going to war. He has said there can be no more cross-border terrorism and that this will be the last war between india and pakistan. As the pakis say there`s a little unfinished business of partition that needs to be attended to.

From an indian point of view, it`s an open secret that various jihadi outfits operate out of pakistan. No proof needed there. Just as afghanistan was going to provide strategic depth to pakistan, pakistan has been providing strategic depth to the jihadis. They can hit and then hide in pakistan. This is the way it has been for the last 10, 12 years and the situation has got worse since kargil when for the second time (the first one was right after partition) the pak army openly waged a war through the jihadis and firmly aligned itself with them. All this has been masterful from the pak point of view. Wage a war on india without really going to war and losing enlisted soldiers. A low-cost, low-intensity war that would drain india.

From the indian point of view, it`s far better to make the war visible and of high intensity.

I think it`s going to be bloody with a lot of destruction all around but the question is do we spend a billion dollars a year on a protracted low-intensity war that has been costing thousands of lives every year or have a quick one that would (hopefully) settle the issue once and for all.

If i had to choose between the two options i`d choose the latter. But of course between war of any kind and no war, i`d choose peace over war. It`s too late for that now.

All in all, other compulsions have taken over and providing proof to pak citizens is no longer a concern to indians.

Chandan

LISTEN TO YOURSELF

Its exactly the reason Hitler to Saddam Hussain gave before invading France & KUWAIT respectively.

World is ful of tyrant invaders pretending to be liberators which angladeshi learnt quickly after`71



Ok so whats ur point. I dont see any objectivity in your argument. Ok Hitler used that argument, so what. Indian Govt is no Nazi regime (unlike some of our friends here might want us to believe). My point is simple, let this war be the war to end all ``proxy``, ``covert``, ``overt`` wars going on for decades once and for all. Cost benefit analysis if done with detached mind would also favor this approach. We might get idealistic and shout ``Peace`` ``Peace`` like a parrot without realizing peace does not exist in vacuum. Religious-military fascism and democratic-secular ideologies can never converge, how much you hold ``talks`` an ``summits`` about. These elements have to be purged. My reference to WW2 was with respect to choices made by Chamberlain and Churchill. World was sane and pragmatic enough to go for Chruchill option, we can still dread to think what would have been the outcome if we had persisted with Chamberlain kind of choices. I wonder if Vajpayee has will like Chruchill to do a service to this whole subcontinent or he want to bury his head in sand like Ostrich.

If we look at history it was our impotent leaders` fear of ``civil war`` which lead to partition and giving Pakistan on silver platter to those religious fascists. And how ``peaceful`` was that partition. Well the fact is that WARS have to fought for maintaining peace. Cowardliness never leads to durable peace.

re: saminashah

{I also think that the Kashmir issue MUST be addressed and answered by the Kashmiri people and India and Pakistan must be responsible in coming to the table with honesty and the willingness to let Kashmir be self determining.}

...which kashmiri are we to listen to?...the kashmiri upon whom violence and misery was thrust upon by militants from across the border, who in turn invited the army in to create more misery?...the kashmiris whose minds have been brainwashed by those very militants into believing this is some grand muslim-kafir battle?...what kind of relevance does that vote have?...and how can there be a vote in a land which has been ethnically cleansed of kashmiri pandits and other non-muslims?...not a very fair vote...

and are we OK setting a precedent in the country where whenever some group has a problem, we have a majority-rules vote and the hell with the minorities...what if, as a dangerous next step to a kashmiri seccession, the hindus of india decide they want their own homeland too, just like the kashmiri muslims got?...can they then kick out everyone else?...if this idea sounds sick, then the idea of kashmir getting a plebiscite because its muslim majority wants it is pretty damn sick as well...

Romairr, #25 ``What about the fact that Indian movies have excellent songs, but poor stories?``

You cannot be serious! The songs are (MAYBE) marginally better than the stories - which isn`t saying much. The days of truly great singers from India seems to be in the past (in the films anyway). And I`ll go so far as to say that the hallmark of truly passionate, longing, poignant shairi as well as singing is no longer there in India. (And no, I don`t watch Indian movies as a rule - I`m forced to undergo that torture for short periods, to be polite, when I visit my favorite aunty`s house)