Enough is Enough

Romair #74,

you need to lighten up brother :)

i was adding to your sense of humor

Re: Bhardwaj

``...And unfortunate part is India ...``

I think that in such matters, you mind your own business, and we mind ours.

re: shrinker

``hypocracy``

...for over a year now i have seen you abuse butcher this fine word with your horrendous spelling...here goes a new year`s gift from me to you: H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y

got it?

...you are an embarrassment to the indian education system, which you claim to be a product of...i doubt your claim...most schools in india will beat your knuckles with a metal ruler till you learn to spell and add...

shankar #73: Your points, as usual, are well taken.

Your views about America are correct; unfortunate, illegal, immoral in terms of foreign policy; but correct all the same.

``There is really NO mechanism to do that.``

Actually there is a mechanism to do that. It is the mechanism of the UN and ICJ. If you take a look at the resolutions and decisions passed by these two organizations, you will be surprised how fair many of them are (the whole Western world votes against the US on Israeli related resolutions). The problem is there is no way for any of these organizations to implement their decisions. But at least, they do point out who is in the wrong. That is better than just declaring war on each other.

Pakistan has been able to prove in the UN that India`s stance on lack of plebescite in Kashmir is immoral and illegal. However, the UN has not been able to force India to take any action. Pakisatan would have gotten a decision in its favor in the ICJ for the Naval aircraft case, however India sidelined the ICJ. However, if India was able to get a decision against Pakistan in these two institutions, Pakistan would not be able to ignore it. Pakistan is not influential enough. If it did ignore it, then there would be quite a bit of justification for India threatening Pakistan, and Pakistan would not have any way to protest.

If the ICJ declares certain Pakistanis to be involved in the terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament, and Pakistan does not hand them over, then India can attack Pakistan to its heart`s desire. I would have no argument. After all, that is exactly the argument I have been using to justify the Kashmiri freedom struggle.

I hope George Bush`s view of the world isn`t as simplistic as you have pointed out. If it is then it will only result in more terrorism against the US. So far there has been no effective deterence developed to counter people who, rightly or wrongly, are willing to die for a cause. Perhaps W. has come up with one.

What the world (and Kashmir) needs are Marshall plans, of all varieties. If the US assists in rebuilding Afghanistan, it will gain the Afghans as allies. If the Indians do the same in Kashmir, they will get the same results. If the US does so in Palestine, same results.

The world will become a much better place if there are no superpowers. That is what successful Western democracies go out of their way to implement within their own countries, i.e. no single province or state should be able to veto and dominate the other provinces or states. However, in foreign policy, they do exactly the opposite.

If the world cannot have zeor superpowers, then it needs to have two or more.

Yo Saxena!

Heheh--of all the damn things to criticise, you pick on my spelling?! C`mon, pal of mine, youre losing your touch. At least come up with some creative insults to strengthen our friendship.

Hows this: you idiotic quack; did you get youre degree out of a crackerjack box?! $#%$

Sheesh, I gotta do everything to keep up our friendship. This wont do, you know..

PS ..say anything , but dont call me a chut. Its become a big no no around here..

Shankar,

I lost some respect for you when you failed to reply to my last post, but after reading this last monstrosity of yours, I`m more convinced than ever that you`re a wuss, a loser, a pathetic excuse for a human being who will never take any pride in what he does and spend his life with his hands in other people`s sh1t.

Wake up to the fact that Saxena and others here have absolutely no respect for your writing ability and just enjoy kicking you around like a football.

Learn some self-respect man. It`s embarrassing.

SM

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Yo Saxena!

Heheh--of all the damn things to criticise, you pick on my spelling?! C`mon, pal of mine, youre losing your touch. At least come up with some creative insults to strengthen our friendship.

Hows this: you idiotic quack; did you get youre degree out of a crackerjack box?! $#%$

Sheesh, I gotta do everything to keep up our friendship. This wont do, you know..

PS ..say anything , but dont call me a chut. Its become a big no no around here..

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

anybody,

I`ve never watched Al-Jazeera. Can anybody tell me what Al-Jazeera is saying about Kasmir? They are counterbalancing the Western media re Al-Qeeda.

The way Pakistan talks about India--Hindians are executing & raping Kashmiri muslim civilians by the thousands. Of course, they are quick to point out AI to bolster their claims.

Mullah Urstruly, of course firmly believes we hindus dont have a conscience. O well, people who worship sticks & stones & penis` cant very well have a conscience, can they?! I would like to tell him that the main reason why we hindus dont have a conscience is because we dont want to spend even a second in Heaven with people like him & Mullah Omar--burning in hell for an eternity is a preferable fate; but I wont.

What about the rest of the muslims of the world? Other than pathetic ``resolutions`` written on toilet paper at OIC conferences; why is their conscience not stirred with outrage? Please folks..I`m not talking about the vermin Al-Qeeda mercenaries; but regular muslims in the billion+ strong Ummah?!

No morchas in front of the Indian Embassy, no threats of sanctions or oil embargos? No regular editorials in Arab press like they do about Palestinians? No boycott of Indian exports--even in Saudi Arabia--which still imports more goods & services from India than gasp-Pakistan?!

Urstruly,

Since you take great pride in not ducking questions--Please explain to me why such a lack of conscience in the Ummah?

We hindus are idol worshipping heathens, we are SUPPOSED to be evil conscienseless kafirs. But what about the strange silence from the majority of non-Pakistani muslims?

Gee..maybe theyre terrified of bania anger; more than Allah`s wrath; huh?!

Romair,

{{Pakisatan would have gotten a decision in its favor in the ICJ for the Naval aircraft case, however India sidelined the ICJ.}}

Paki satan?! Now was that a Freudian slip?!:)

The problem with optimists like you is that you yearn for an ideal world. Not that thats a bad quality--more power to you, I say. However, sad to say, it doesnt exist & it will never exist. It has never existed since Adam & Eve ate that bloody apple. Life has never been fair; no matter how much idealists like you try to make it fair. Sometimes, I think you should step back & learn to accept the fact that policy should be based on pragmatic interests. The minute you bring ``morality`` into it--EVERYBODY becomes a hypocrite.

Ofcourse, I`ll have you know, its because its ALL ISI`s FAULT!:)

The GoP is shouting on the rooftops of the world about LEGALITY--ofcourse on behalf of the poor, oppressed Kashmiris.

Could you tell me, my fair friend, how the GoP has respected LAW in its history?

-not a SINGLE leader of Pakistan has ever relinquished power by its OWN laws.

-Consitutions are changed by the whims of the prevailing leaders--military & civilian.

-an electrol victory was answered with a bloody massacre in 71. Pakistan is INTROSPECTIVE?!

BULLS *IT!! You & a few responsible Pakistanis maybe introspective. Have ANY of the perpetrators of that sad history ever been arrested, or made to answer for their war crimes?! Tiger Niazi lives in glorious retirement! For every one of you, there is also a Urstruly who lives in denial & totally unrepentant about what happened!

You think Mushy has?! Why did he get so angry at the Bangladeshi PM at the UN & cancelled a meeting with her?!

I wont belabor the point anymore..

Its hypocracy (screw you, Saxena) for a country to start crying about legalities, when it has & continues to blatantly flount its own laws. Its like a burglar being caught red handed & cries how unfair the legal system is because the cops didnt read the Miranda rights in Spanish, because he doesnt understand English.

I think its the MAIN reason why there is NO sympathy for Pakistan in the eyes of the world--even the Islamic world--when it stands on a moral high horse & cries foul.

Dont get me wrong, it doesnt mean that Indians are angels either. Lord knows they have plenty of skeletons in their closets. No cigar for Indians either. Thats why the world is taking a hands off policy; where Kashmir is concerned. Its a polite way of telling India & Pakistan ``both of you have F-ed up``.

I`ll tell you why I think youre as big a hypocrite as I. When it comes to Pakistan, you justify ``morality`` & ``pragmatism`` exactly when & where it suits Pakistan`s interests.

So, you believe in standing for the rights of oppressed people no matter where they are; eh?!. So how come you are advocating that Pakistan should continue & strenghten relations with China? For a person who believes so passionately for the human right of freedom--how come there is no peep from you when China has trampled the rights of Tibetans, denies religious freedoms to its citizens & even crushes Chinese muslim ``freedom fighters``. And your hero Mushy even has the gall to admonish them to be patriotic Chinese citizens!!! Yup; & you were cheering Mushy`s policy all the way!

AHA!! What the HELL happened to your MORAL stance about standing up for HUMAN RIGHTS?! When it suits your ``spin`` all that goes out of the window--now Pakistan should be realistic & pragmatic! Cant have it both ways, my friend..

YOU, of all people should have taken a stance of denouncing Mushy`s policy towards China!

C`mon Umairr; sometimes I think you actually believe your own bs:)

shankar #83: When I argue a point, I do so on a morality basis, and then on a practicality basis; and on no other basis. What other way is their to argue a point? Either something is morally and ethically right or its wrong. There are many rapists in the world. My argument is that raping someone is wrong. Will that stop the rapists of the world in their crimes? I doubt it. But does that make my argument incorrect? Should I not say that rape is a crime, just because I know that their are Pakistani rapists also? Should I stop saying that rape is crime, because my saying so will not stop any of the rapists? And even if I stop saying rape is a crime, will that make it moral?

I argue my points not as a Pakistani, but as a human being. I have criticised Pakistan far more than I have criticised any other country. Primarily because I am more interested in the improvement of Pakistan, than I am in the improvement of other countries.

And I make my arguments on the basis of principles. I never change those principles, even it makes Pakistan a culprit. As a principle, I believe people have the Bhagwan-given right of self-determination, regardless of religion, creed, ethnicity, or international standing. Based on that, I have on every occassion stated that the following were wrong:

- The enslavement of Indian Hindus, against their will, by Muslim conquerors (or even Hindu conquerors, before that)

- The colonisation of the Sub-Continent by the British.

Based on that, I have on every occassion stated that the following were right:

- Indian independence from the British

- Pakistani independence from the British and separation from India

- The creation of Bangladesh

- Kashmiri independence from India

You can doubt my principle, but you cannot doubt my consistency. What I am looking for are Indians with consistency, who are willing to apply one principle, on all these issues. If they do not believe in self-determination, then they can just flip my first list with the second. What I have found is that nearly all Indians switch their principle when India is the agressor, from when India is the oppressed. This is unfortunate. Many Pakistanis do the same, and that is wrong also. However, if you look at the comments on this site, and in Pakistan, you will find that nearly all Pakistanis of the currrent generation, accept the existence of India (while many Indians doubt Pakistan`s existence) and they accept Pakistan`s faults in Bangladesh (not at the level many Bangladeshis claim, but Pakistanis do consider Pakistan the guilty party). This is a sign of an evolving society, more so than elections. Indians seem to be completely in a state of denial on Kashmir, however, i.e. Indians and Bangladeshis deserved self-determination, but Pakistanis and Kashmiris do not.

With regard to international issues, specifically Kashmir, I have always stated that I don`t care what Pakistan or India get out of the deal. I have never stated that Pakistan is not at fault. I do however, know for a fact, that nearly all Pakistanis sincerely feel for the Kashmiris, and for their lives. This is not a facade. They just want self-determination for Kashmiris. This could result in Kashmir joining India. That would be perfectly acceptable by me.

Amnesty International is a very powerful organiztion. If it makes one statement against the US, the US govt. takes action. It is an extremely credible organization, also. That is why it is banned in Kashmir. The Indian Law Minister stated himself on CNN that 61,000 civilians have been killed in Kashmir. He blamed the killings on Pakistani terrorists. If that is the case, then Pakistan should is to blame. If they were killed by India, then India should face the blame. However, we need neutral organizations to decide that, like AI.

The only alternative to what I have been suggesting is the status quo, i.e. Indians and Pakistanis continue fighting each other, forever. And Kashmiris get killed forever. That is not a reality I want to live in. And it is actually worse for India than it is for Pakistan. After all, everything is happening in Indian Kashmir. There will be great blowback from that in India. What if tomorrow Pakistan gets back to its economic growth rates of 6%+? What if it then says, it doesn`t want a Kashmir solution? It could just bleed India.

I am actually happy Bangladesh had no common border with West Pakistan. Otherwise, Pakistan would still be facing the same situation there, as India is facing in Kashmir.

The more comments I hear from Indians and Pakistanis, the more I am begining to realize they barely understand each other, or the situation in Kashmir. I have grown up in Pakistan, and have spent the last ten years professinally with at least five to ten Indians, on a daily basis. It is quite possible that in the past ten years, I have probably spent much more time with Indians than even you have (not counting your own family). I will go out on a limb and state that I understand the interactions between both groups better than 99.99999% of Pakistanis and 99.99999% of Indians. Infact, had it not been for an Indian professor, I would be driving a cab in Florida in the best of circumsrtances, and driving one in Pindi, in the worst of circumstances. Similarly, there are more than a handful of Indians, who are prospering in the US, specifically because I helped them out directly with their Green Cards, visas, and scholarships. So I have seen the good side of the relationship, as well. And hope that someday that can be achieved. That is why I always support a neutral UN, ICJ, AI type of solution to Indo-Pak conflicts. Because I am convinced the two countries and Kashmiris cannot come to a soluution on their own. Hence my frustration at India`s continous sidelining of these organizations. I would be more than happy if these organizations gave a solution which pointed to Pakistan as the culprit. As long as it is from a neutral source.

What other solutions are there than the ones I have presented? Whether they seem too idealistic or too optimistic is only important if there are any other solutions available.

In regard to the Naval Aircraft case. This was a historic case for India and Pakistan. India argued that the ICJ was not authorized to listen to India-Pakistan cases. It received a ruling in its favor. So the case never was discussed. India would have lost, since the aircraft wreckage landed in Pakistani airspace. Now, this avenue is theoretically locked out also, i.e. if India has evidence against Pakistan, and presents it in the ICJ, Pakistan can use the Indian precendent, and say that India by its own admission, does not consider the ICJ to have jurisdiction. The only alternative to legal proceedings of some sort (any sort) in Indo-Pak conflicts is the current state of war. This moves us one step closer to an all out war.

I am personally interested in the above case, because one of my very close friends was on the Naval aircraft that was shot down.

``So how come you are advocating that Pakistan should continue & strenghten relations with China? For a person who believes so passionately for the human right of freedom--how come there is no peep from you when China has trampled the rights of Tibetans, denies religious freedoms to its citizens & even crushes Chinese muslim ``freedom fighters``.``

I have very little knowledge of the Tibet/China situation. I am not an expert on all freedom struggles. I am just attempting to become an expert on the Pakistani and Kashmiri freedom struggle, and to some extent the US freedom struggle, since they effect me directly. However, my principle remain constant. If I apply it on even Pakistan in case of East Pakistan, why wouldn`t I apply it on China? What Pakistan (or India) says about freedom struggles, other than their own, is immaterial. It is what the people in the struggle say themselves, that is important. Even if Pakistan stated that the Kashmiri freedom struggle or that of any other group is wrong, it doesn`t make it wrong in my eyes. After all, Pakistanis in 1971 did state that the Bangladeshi freedom struggle was wrong.

But at the same time, I support at least whatever good relations can be achieved between enemy countries. There are many mistakes Pakistan has made, and is still making. There are many human rights violations in Pakistan. Does that mean, I should turn in my Pakistani citizenship? The US has killed the most innocent people outside its borders, directly and indirectly, in the past ten to fifteen years. Should I destroy the US? Similarly, there are many human rights violations committed by India and China. That does not mean that Pakistan should not attempt to have trade relations or other relations with these two countries, wherever it can. Should I start beating up everyone of my Indian subordinates, because of Kashmir? Should I stop watching Indian movies, or eating Indian food? No. Similarly, should I start beating up my Chinese subordinates, or stop eating Chinese food, because of Tibet? No.

At the same time, just because I have Indian friends and some Chinese ones, and many Pakistani ones, doesn`t mean I should accept the human rights violations committed by these countries. The reason I discuss mostly Kashmir is because that is part of my heritage. If I were from Tibet, I would more than likely discuss Tibet, and be on the Tibetan version of Chowk.

Rigth will always remain right, and wrong will always be wrong. How you or I, or India or China or Pakistan attempt to portray it is immaterial. I believe in the end, right does win out. Perhaps that is why I seem like an optimist to you. But if my optimism is wrong, then the world would have destroyed itself a long time ago.

soundmiester:

``Shankar, I lost some respect for you when you failed to reply to my last post, but after reading this last monstrosity of yours, I`m more convinced than ever that you`re a wuss, a loser, a pathetic excuse for a human being who will never take any pride in what he does and spend his life with his hands in other people`s sh1t.``

but ofcourse...let a man speak some sense and then sit back and watch the nutcases all over him..listen really hard now u little nasty insect...you wuss, you loser, YOU pathetic excuse for a human being..YOU not him

``Wake up to the fact that Saxena and others here have absolutely no respect for your writing ability and just enjoy kicking you around like a football.``

others? who others? give me 20 names out of the hundred interactors we have here..heck give me 10..

and besides dear soundmiester, does he look like he cares? huhuhuh?

``Learn some self-respect man. It`s embarrassing.``

well hydeee ho..looks who`s talking

idiot

shankar:

``I`ve never watched Al-Jazeera. Can anybody tell me what Al-Jazeera is saying about Kasmir? They are counterbalancing the Western media re Al-Qeeda.``

al jazeera comes in Arabic...so while we can see whats happening on the screen, it makes no sense

Re: Romair

Romair, you are entitled to your opinion, not to your facts. You say that the Indian law minister said on CNN that India has killed 61,000 Kashmiris. You are wrong, and even after I have pointed this out once in post #230 on the `Running Naked` board by Anwar Iqbal. This is what the `Indian law minister` said on CNN:

``...the number of people who have been killed on our side of the border, in our country, in the last 10 to 15 years is as high as 61,000 civilians...``

Notice -- he did not say Kashmir. Our side of the border includes Punjab AND Kashmir -- both states in which the ISI has had many successes.

``...In regard to the Naval Aircraft case. This was a historic case for India and Pakistan...``

Again you are displaying selective amnesia -- by failing to mention that the aircraft was in violation of an Indo-Pak agreement to not allow military aircraft to fly within 10 kms of each other`s borders without prior consent of the other party. The fact that this provocative incident took place within a few months of Kargil, escapes you completely.

``...Should I stop watching Indian movies, or eating Indian food? ...``

And frankly we don`t care even if you did. But, we do care and take notice when you get up on the soap box here and advance the cause of infiltration and terrorism in India, and the cause of `bleeding India through a thousand cuts`. You are again suggesting that `bleeding India` is a viable strategy when you made the odd comment, ``What if it (Pakistan) then says, it doesn`t want a Kashmir solution? It could just bleed India.`` That won`t fool anyone of us. We all know that that is exactly what Pakistan has been doing for the last 20 years. Shankar knows it too.

``...With regard to international issues, specifically Kashmir, I have always stated that I don`t care what Pakistan or India get out of the deal...``

No, that is not all that you have said in the past -- you have also said that India cannot win, and Pakistan cannot lose. Thus, your mask of neutrality is not very effective, and won`t wash.

``...You can doubt my principle, but you cannot doubt my consistency...I have very little knowledge of the Tibet/China situation...``

Then how can you claim to be consistent when you do not even know the facts?

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Shankar

``What about the rest of the muslims of the world? Other than pathetic ``resolutions`` written on toilet paper at OIC conferences; why is their conscience not stirred with outrage? Please folks..I`m not talking about the vermin Al-Qeeda mercenaries; but regular muslims in the billion+ strong Ummah?!

No morchas in front of the Indian Embassy, no threats of sanctions or oil embargos? No regular editorials in Arab press like they do about Palestinians? No boycott of Indian exports--even in Saudi Arabia--which still imports more goods & services from India than gasp-Pakistan?!``

EXCELLENT! Clearly a failure of successive regimes to highlight and present the moral dimensions of the Kashmir issue within Islamia - Also a moral and tactical failure of the Ulema (and ummah) - Whereas Shia and Sunni kill each other, bomb each others Masajid in Pakistan, similar manifestations do not occur in India with the regularity they do in Pakistan. It is not just that the Indian government stance should be seen as immoral, but that the Pakistani political economy is not seen as moral or ethical.

AND, the success of the Indian governments to see the true nature of governments in Islamia and the success of the Indian government (incredibly, even a Hindu nationalist government) to project this not as a moral issue, but one of national security.

Truth is that Pan Arabism is stronger force within Arab countries, than is Islam or the idea of Ummah - we cannot deny this, it is the truth. And it is also true that Pakistan, by virtue of it`s civil, religious, political and economic strife, it`s inability to muster political will, to build concensus, under civilian governments, to face national challenges and to resolve them -shows itself or is percieved as, unworthy of the support of the Ummah.

Yet, none of this means that kashmirs freedom from India is a non issue. Kashmir will be free of India, if not today, then tomorrow, if not tomorrow then the day after - there is an inevitablity to this process. kashmir will never again a trouble free area for India - while Pakistani failure to highlight kashmir as a moral cause is accepted, what will follow, is the indian and global acceptance of Indian failure in Kashmir; a psychologically event, not without larger consequences.

Ref Romair #: 84

[Similarly, should I start beating up my Chinese subordinates, or stop eating Chinese food, because of Tibet? No.]

Yes.... just 10 days back, my friend made it very clear she wouldn`t accept anything made in China as a Christmas gift from anybody.

We shopped very carefully for her.

anNy honey,

First, lern to spel. It`s pathetic that you don`t even bother to reproduce my handle from the post correctly. Shows how much respect you have for your debating opponent.

Second, what on earth are you doing poking your long nose in a debate between two Indians anyway? Is that the Paki way? I guess so, looking at Kashmir.

What I say to Shankar is my business. If he`s such a wuss that he needs you or someone else to defend him, he really deserves my sympathy not my censure. I sit corrected.

Meanwhile please go back to your pringles and biryani, you fat foodmonster.

SM

soundmiester:

``Shankar, I lost some respect for you when you failed to reply to my last post, but after reading this last monstrosity of yours, I`m more convinced than ever that you`re a wuss, a loser, a pathetic excuse for a human being who will never take any pride in what he does and spend his life with his hands in other people`s sh1t.``

but ofcourse...let a man speak some sense and then sit back and watch the nutcases all over him..listen really hard now u little nasty insect...you wuss, you loser, YOU pathetic excuse for a human being..YOU not him

``Wake up to the fact that Saxena and others here have absolutely no respect for your writing ability and just enjoy kicking you around like a football.``

others? who others? give me 20 names out of the hundred interactors we have here..heck give me 10..

and besides dear soundmiester, does he look like he cares? huhuhuh?

``Learn some self-respect man. It`s embarrassing.``

well hydeee ho..looks who`s talking

idiot

soundmister:

``First, lern to spel. It`s pathetic that you don`t even bother to reproduce my handle from the post correctly. Shows how much respect you have for your debating opponent.``

preciselee deeur...no respect

call me honey again ome more time and ill shove a dabba of prigles down your throat so hard, your brains will popout of your ears

aur fat hogee aap kee saas