Enough is Enough

Romair :

I am under no illusion that a successful resolution of the current crisis will settle the Kashmir issue.

The current crisis is about the export of jihad from Pakistan. The matter of fact is that an enormous number of journalists and reporters have now visited Afghanistan and Pakistan in the last three months, and now they understand what is going on. This is not a matter of Indian propaganda, or poor PR on the part of Pakistan, or a Yindoo-Yehudi-Yankee conspiracy, though you are free to bury your head in the sand and believe so. Hitchens, de Borchgrave and Ahmed were conveniently available to quote, but look around and see the barrage of articles. Moreover, the articles tend to make liars of Rumsfeld, Powell, Bush, Blair, etc., so they are not sponsored by the governments.

There are articles about what is found in Pakistani textbooks; about what is taught in madrassas; about how Taliban still find refuge in Pakistan getting in with army connivance, even though the borders are supposedly patrolled, and so on. Not random allegations, but eye-witness accounts, interviews, etc. There are any number of articles on the thinness of support for the Taliban in Afghanistan, and how Pakistani money and military support was necessary to prop up the Taliban.

It is not about ``Pakistan is evil, India is good``. The issue is that Pakistan harbors a core of fundamentalists that has hijacked the state and state policy, and that presents a threat to everyone. Presumably, when it is eradicated, its thinness of support will also be apparent.

I broke my own rule - I think all this people-people contact keeps Pakistanis from seeing the truth, and I advocate a boycott. So I will not argue further. I leave you with this from Barry Bearak in the NYT; he just visited the ``lawless`` tribal areas, where supposedly the writ of Islamabad does not run.

``While it is usually presumed that the tribal Pashtuns prefer that separation - and even pugnaciously demand it - the opposite may well be true. For certain powerful Pakistanis, it is good to have a territory uncontaminated by legal statutes. Smugglers, drug barons and arms dealers thrive under such latitude. Anarchy serves its purposes.``

``But most people in Tirah would like the benefits of hospitals, factories and utilities``.

-Arun Gupta

chandan

{{One does need someone to purge the fascism and fanaticism out of this country.. Surely the end of fascism in Pakistan and end of India-hatred would take any agenda out of Indian hindua fascists.. So this war is necessary... Stalemate is already taking too much cost on communal harmony in our country.. We need this final ``manthan``, to finish of our leftover madness of partition.. Then only finally we will have that great unified subcontinent which we all dream of}}

Which country are you talking about; when you say ``we`` & ``us``?! I assume India. The RSS & their political wing BJP have a good ideology?! Their ideology will DESTROY India!; just like the fundos in Pakistan will destroy their country. Are you saying ``our fundos`` are better than their fundos? There is fascism in both countries. But you dont solve that problem with a war--now that both countries are nuclear! Its like trying to eradicate the cancer by killing the patient!!

What the F ``great unified subcontinent`` are you dreaming about?! Sure--- it will be a great big glowing piece of radioactive wasteland, you fool. Go back under the rock you crawled out from--its glowing already...

Which country are you talking about; when you say ``we`` & ``us``?! I assume India. The RSS & their political wing BJP have a good ideology?! Their ideology will DESTROY India!; just like the fundos in Pakistan will destroy their country. Are you saying ``our fundos`` are better than their fundos? There is fascism in both countries. But you dont solve that problem with a war--now that both countries are nuclear! Its like trying to eradicate the cancer by killing the patient!!

What the F ``great unified subcontinent`` are you dreaming about?! Sure--- it will be a great big glowing piece of radioactive wasteland, you fool. Go back under the rock you crawled out from--its glowing already...

__________________________________________________

Unlike hypocritical writer like you, when I say ``we`` I mean all the people of subcontinent with whom I share my thousands of years of roots.. I dont want national boundaries and flimsy ``two-nation`` theories to stop me from making those connections to my brothers and sisters of subcontinent. How come none of you shallow ``peaceniks`` talking of peace never talk about ``two-nation`` theory and how to undo the mistakes of past..

If you really get ``F-ing`` problems with ``united subcontinent``, what kind of ``F-ing`` peace are you talking about. Its a shame that when Europe which was inventor of narrow nationalism is moving towards unity, pseudo ``peacenik``s like you find problems with unity.

As for war, ``nuclear weapon`` is always a fake weapon... No one would ever use it.. There are atleast some people in Indian establishment who are now calling this bluff and know that whatever conflict takes place in subcontinent it will never be nuclear. Only ``peaceniks`` like who have special longing for ``fascists``, would rather sacrifice 20 kashmiri pandits a days rather than a war which cleans the subcontinent of all fascist religious elements. Believe me when Pakistan is no longer there, people like RSS, BJP or whoever they are would lose all their agenda whatever they have and that would be the end of it.

Sitting in USA surely you can lecture people about peace.. You are just same as pundits in somnath temple who thought lord shiva would save the temple and they did nothing but pray. Sorry but we know what did that cowardice and ``peace`` lead to. Only stupid cowards like you holed up cosily in USA fear ``nuclear`` onslaught. Sorry but believe me it would still be better than submitting to religious sectarianism, religious fascism. India may have its own internal version of such elements, but they get purged through our democratic process.. But we do need to help our brothers across ``border`` to get them rid of the communal forces and ``jinnah`` mentality for once and all. 1-2 Nuclear holocaust would be small price for a unified secular subcontinent clear of all the fascist elements and cowards and clear of ``americono-philes`` like u

Re: Shankar:

``...Just look at the mentality of us desis--we are too insane to STOP a nuclear war...``

Yo Shankar! you are giving too little credit to the strategic genius that is Musharraf, or our own Vajpayee. What you see going on is an orchestrated crisis precipated by Vajpayee when the timing suits him. Of course, the stupidity of the LeT/JeM to have picked this moment in Pakistan`s history is all too discomforting for the General, and played perfectly into Vajpayee`s hands. For details, check out my response #261 to Dost-Mittar on the `Running Naked` by Anwar Iqbal board

Re: Romair to MacGupta and the `61,000 killed in Kashmir` broken record

Check out my response #230 on the `Running Naked` by Anwar Iqbal board

shankar #14: I don`t think this will escalate any furthur. It will go on until the elections in Uttar Pradesh, which I believe are in February. Having said that, I never thought we would see a day when either country deployed complete militaries across international borders.

It is hard to tell what India wants. It wants Pakistan to crack down on militants, and hand over a few of them to India. Yet it is not willing to corner Pakistan in any international arena, or publish any proof of crime. Pakistan has actually put most religious party leaders under house arrest (something the BJP would never do for Pakistan).

What else can Pakistan do? It cannot just start handing over its citizens to India, as and when India wants. Will India return that favor? What if tomorrow India puts my name on the list. Should Pakistan hand me over to India also? This is not only against Pakistani law, it is against Indian law, as well. All India needs to do is present evidence in any neutral international organization. Pakistan will have no choice but to act. It does not have the luxury of sidelining the ICJ like India did in the Naval aircraft case.

The second part is the moving of defence forces. India has launched the most massive force movements in thirty years. What should Pakistan do? It cannot leave its borders open. So it moved its forces to the border also. When India attacked Siachen, Pakistan moved its forces there also. When Pakistan attacked Kargil, India moved its forces there. Once India scales down, Pakistan will move back. But if Pakistan scales down, India has not agreed to scale down (otherwise why did it move its forces there in the first place). I suppose the other option for Pakistan is to not move any forces to the border, and let India walk into Pakistan.

The third case is the Kashmir issue. I think Indians need to accept the fact that Kashmir is separate entity from Pakistan. Pakistan cannot remote control everyone in India. Kashmiris have an indigenous freedom struggle going. That is what happens when countries try to occupy others against their will. It is only natural. Didn`t the Indians want the British to leave? It is beyond the point of no return. Even if they lose Pakistani support, they will just get crushed, but will not give up. According to the Indian Law minister himself on CNN, 61,000 people have died there. Indians need to get out of their state of denial on Kashmir, and at least accept the ground realities, or at least allow human rights organizations to explain it to them.

Pakistan isn`t the cause of every Indian problem, specially Kashmir. Everything cannot be blamed on Pakistan. And every problem is not a mutual problem. Many of India`s problems have been created by India. Why occupy or pressurise others in the first place? Should everyone just bow down to India, as and when it wants?

I have been in touch with my colleagues in Pakistan. They are all deployed on forward locations, ready to retaliate if attacked. They all seem very calm and there seems to be no war hysteria on their side. They don`t have any orders to attack India, and just want to defend Pakistan, from an Indian attack. As long as the Indian military also just wants to protect India from Pakistani attack, and not attack Pakistan, there should be no war.

There is two points I would like to make here:

1) Indians need to start some introspection, and start it soon. India just increased its defence budget by a yearly amount of $5 billion/year. I had earlier suggested this increase was not to counter China, but to threaten Pakistan, even furthur. I have been proven correct. If this money, in addition to the salaries of the soldiers that are there already, was spent yearly on Kashmir, the Kashmiris may have been more than happy to be with India.

2) The BJP is a Hindu Nationalist extremist party. Just look at their manifesto. It openly declares itself to be, ``the most prominent (www.bjp.org) ``member of the RSS. Did the RSS kill Gandhi or did Pakistan?

``The political and ideological forebears of the Bharatiya Janata Party, in power today at the Centre, killed Gandhi.`` (http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/52a/067.html)

Had Jinnah been assasinated, it would be beyond my wildest imagination to see such a party every being elected in Pakistan. The BJP is lead by exactly the same time of people that India accuses Pakistan of harboring. Pakistan has now sidelined these groups (they were never in the mainstream to begin with). India is electing them, again and again. Why are Indians following every command of the BJP, if they dislike religous extremists? Are we to belive that even India`s religious extremists are holier than Pakistan`s religious extremists? There is going to be another Ayodhya incidence in a few months. Will that be Pakistan`s fault also?

It is ridiculous for either India or Pakistan to initiate military action against each other. I was very critical of Kargil (even though it was a counter to Siachen). India has been attacking Siachen for 16 years, and now it is threatening all out war on the recognized borders. Why are all the Indians so solidly behind these actions? Why doesn`t the free Indian press not criticize India`s actions in Siachen, while the Pakistanis press has been all over Kargil? If Pakistan was to threaten India with a military offensive of any kind, I would certainly speak out against it. I did it during Kargil. As would a lot of other Pakistanis. I would not call it a mutual problem. I would blame it specificially on Pakistan. Isn`t it about time, the Indians blamed the current military build up specifically on India?

What else can Pakistan do but to move its forces in defensive position, to ensure India doesn`t carry out on its threats, and ask India to provide evidence for its accusations, and ask India to work out the problems jointly in international forums?

India is unwilling to play cricket in Pakistan. It is unwilling to talk to Pakistan. It is unwilling to recognize the ICJ. It is unwilling to allow Pakistanis planes to fly over India. It is unwilling to recognize the UN. It is unwilling to allow any mediators. It is unwilling to provide evidence for crimes it accuses Pakistan of (as a Pakistani, I find the accusation itself quite offensive. The Indian govt. hasn`t released any proof to the Indian populace, yet Indians are happy to believe the govt. This shows how evil Indians consider the Pakistan govt. and Pakistanis to be). Its Hindu extremist govt. is accusing Pakistan of harboring Muslim extremists (that would be like the Sipah-e-Sahaba accusing the Indian Congress of harboring Hindu extremists).

Everything in South Asia is not Pakistan`s fault. A lot of things are India`s faults. Indians need to convince themselve of that. Please listen to Pakistan, and let international organizations like the UN get involved, or you will get us all killed. If, despite all of the above, everything in South Asia is Pakistan`s fault to such an extent, that India can declare nuclear war against Pakistan, then all I can say is I have no answer to India`s complains. It is currently bent upon blowing up Pakistan and getting itself blown up in the process.

Dear Shankar

Its good to know that,some one in India has a realization of what will follow.I join you in your views.There is certainly a need to shun radical thinking.I am available for you to interact.