Enough is Enough

Good to her that the new Afghan government has decided to erect the Bamiyan Buddha again (or a replica of roignal ones). This is in marked contrast with anti-statue Islamic culture and must be one of the few moments from the history of muslim majority nations to erect a statue of a non-Muslim relgion-founder. Happy New Years, yo all Afghans out there. Now teach Pakistanis how to erect a statue of Ashoka in Gandhara. It is a good start Afghanis. You must decide whether you would like to live in peace with yourself and your surrounding or keep fighting (jehad) against evil, fighting against enemies and fighting against ``Nafs`` including penis erection before marriage and restricted to in-bed only. Yo Afghans, erect Bamiyan Buddha and erect democracy, human rights and consensus based rule - way to go!!!!

romair #23 writes:

[begin quote]

If Pakistan was to threaten India with a military offensive of any kind, I would certainly speak out against it. I did it during Kargil. As would a lot of other Pakistanis. I would not call it a mutual problem. I would blame it specificially on Pakistan. Isn`t it about time, the Indians blamed the current military build up specifically on India?

[end quote]

You must truly be in a dream world. Indians are

murdered by the dozen by terrorists funded by

the ISI and ``tolerated`` by the Pakistani

goverment. The Srinagar Assembly is attacked

by a Pakistani suicide bomber with 38 killed;

the indian parliament is attacked by five

pakistanis with 10 killed. And you consider this military buildup

as some kind of excessive response! Wow, what

should the indians do, wait for their parliament

building to be fully destroyed first?

Let me turn this around: should extremists

from India ever attack any civilian institution

in Pakistan, I would personally lead a delegation

to our embassy demanding their extradition to

Pakistan. Of course, we will never hear the

converse proposition from any of you guys.

Why? Because you see, there are no extremists

in Pakistan, only freedom fighters!

``Peace`` vigil in San Jose:

I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:

1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan. Rest of the people present there were pretending as if they were representing American Indian voices too. They could not even bring any of their Indian friends (if they have any). Carrying the Indian flag they wanted to pretend to passing by people that they were mixture of Indians and Pakis.. This thing was really deceptive.

2. There was not a single mention of terrorism in the placards. As if to say that there is a war to start in South Asia out of blue, may be just because Indians and Pakis hate each other. Basically agenda rather than ``peace`` was ``save pakistan``.

3. I had a poster criticizing ``military dictatorships`` and saying ``Indians and Pakis are one``, I was accused of being ``divisive``, ``anti-peace`` and ``with hidden agenda``. So I guess another agenda was ``save mr. musharraf`` and keep floating the theory that muslim-hindu are separate people.

4. One of the organizer tried to read some crappy article from WPost basically whose import was ``hey Indians are basically Hindus and India-Pak difference is between hindus and muslims..``. When will Pakis start looking at the census figures. Sorry to break the news guys. For decades in India more muslims live than in Pakistan and even so more peacefully than any where, with more democratic rights than anywhere. So please stop giving BS that India-Pak dispute is abt Hindu-Muslim.

5. It seems organizers had special affinity to ``two nation theory``. The basic point was even if a nation is attacked and engaged in proxy wars for years, it should still maintain ``peace``. I Wonder organizers ever called for peace when innocent people get butchered by terrorists. Only when there is talk of retaliation from India, it seems they hear their scared relatives in Pakistan and then come out to talk about ``peace``.

6. Also common goal of meeting organizer was to beg Mr Bush to do some thing about South Asia. This shows how much ``peace`` they can achieve from this Bush the ``messiah of peace``.

Ok guys lick the * *lls of Bush or whoever powerful you can find around the world to save your terrorist regime or jehadi brothers.

But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it. I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected, but we do need to respond to this fascist evil scourge of Jehadism and free our Paki brothers from it too. So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.

Well founder of ``Chowk.com`` was also there. I complemented him on having a great website. Hope he does not completely share the views of rest of the organizers.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

India pullout troops from the borders

Nuclear Threat make Hindians Buckle ....he.he..he..he

India welcomes Pak action against terrorist



leaders

NDTV Correspondent

Monday, December 31, 2001 (New Delhi):

India has termed reports from Pakistan on arrests of leaders of terrorist outfits as a ``step forward in the correct direction``. India has blamed the Pakistan-based terrorist outfits, Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) and Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT), for carrying out the December 13 suicide attack on Parliament.

``If this information is confirmed, then it is a step forward in correct direction,`` External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh told reporters after a one and-a-half hour long meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) chaired by Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee.

He was replying to a question whether New Delhi was satisfied with actions being taken by the Pervez Musharraf regime against JeM chief Maulana Masood Azhar and LeT founder Hafiz Mohammed Saeed.

Singh said India had received information about ``some action`` having been taken by Pakistani authorities against LeT and JeM including arrest of leaders and raids being conducted on some premises of these organisations.

``We hope that such actions against terrorist groups targeting India including Jammu and Kashmir would be pursued vigorously and cross-border terrorism eliminated``, Singh added.

On the Pakistani demand that India should furnish evidence against these terrorist groups, Singh said ``It is strange to talk about this`` when the country was a victim of terrorist aggression.

``So far as the evidence of terrorist activities is concerned, it has been provided in a sufficient manner to international community``, he said adding it was largely on that basis that Islamabad had taken action against the terrorist outfits.

Singh said India would be handing over a list to Pakistan High Commission here of terrorists and criminals, who had taken refuge in that country. He, however, did not give out any further details including the number of terrorists and criminals named in the list.

He said India has been informing the Interpol about the activities of these terrorist outfits leading to ``red alert`` being issued against them by the Paris-based organisation.

On whether the government was satisfied with the US efforts to contain Pakistan sponsored cross-border terrorism, the External Affairs Minister said Washington had made a clear commitment to stamp out terrorism globally.

The Cabinet Committee on Security discussed essential issues concerning India`s security in view of the December 13 attack and also the international and regional developments after the incident.

Diplomatic means

Defence Minister George Fernandes today said while India was trying to make Pakistan accede to its demands over terrorism through diplomatic means, New Delhi would take whatever steps which become essential if these attempts failed.

``So far we have concentrated on the diplomatic offensive and this will continue till one concludes there is an end of the road in terms of diplomacy,`` he said.

Addressing troops of the Army and Air Force at several forward locations in the Western Sector, Fernandes said the diplomatic efforts were ``perhaps likely`` to bring results ``but in an unlikely event of this not happening, then one will have to take decisions and these decisions will be very demanding``.

He also took a broadside at the US, saying its objective in the war against terrorism was limited to catching or killing Osama bin Laden and had done nothing ``more than rhetoric`` in ``making Pakistan understand``.

Asserting that no decision had been taken so far on whether India should go to war to achieve a win against terrorism, Fernandes said ``efforts are on to resolve the situation through diplomatic efforts`` and Prime Minister Vajpayee and External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh were engaged in it at the moment.

Stressing that Pakistan still did not appear to be honest in its actions against terrorists, Fernandes said it ``should understand and accept how big a sin it has committed``.

``We don`t want any such situation where there could be a lot of loss in this region,`` he said, adding Pakistan has thrust the proxy war on India over the last decade and the world should see and make Islamabad desist from it. ``If it is not done, we will do whatever is needed,`` he asserted.

Lauding the G-8 statement asking Pakistan to meet the demands of India, he said it indicates ``we are on the right track``. He said the European Union, the US and the UK have also told Pakistan to act against terrorists.

Jaitley tells Pak to tackle terrorism on its eastern border

India has said that it has given Pakistan a list of terrorists involved in crimes in India and demanded they be handed over for trial.

``A list of terrorists involved in crimes in India has been given to Pakistan. If these terrorists are handed over, then certainly I think a situation more conducive to both the countries (for talks) can arise,`` Union Law Minister Arun Jaitley told CNN`s ``Late Edition`` programme.

Jaitley made the remarks when asked how close India and Pakistan were to a war. ``We do hope that such a situation does not arise where we have to go to a war. But the entire onus of that will depend on the kind of stand Pakistan takes,`` he said.

Asked if Prime Minister Vajpayee would talk to Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf at the Kathmandu SAARC summit next month, Jaitley said, ``Well, it does not appear that the situation Pakistan is creating is conducive to a dialogue.``

``Pakistan can`t be encouraging this kind of cross-border insurgency. In the attack on Parliament, all the five terrorists killed were Pakistanis. There has been voluminous evidence of involvement of organizations within that country (Pakistan) in this attack and then they say: Let us have a dialogue,`` the Law Minister said.

Referring to Pakistan Foreign Minister Abdul Sattar`s demand for evidence for acting against the terrorists, Jaitley said Maulana Masood Azhar heads an organization, which is responsible for the attack on Parliament and was released from Indian prison through ``the coercive process of hijacking a plane``.

``Does the Pakistan Foreign Minister still need evidence?`` he said. Jaitley said actions by Pakistan against terrorists could not be ``ornamental in terms of making public announcements and after a few days freezing their (terrorist groups) accounts allowing money to flow out``.

Jaitley said while Sattar had agreed to hand over Osama bin Laden, if apprehended in Pakistan, to the US, he cannot have a different standard when it came to terrorists on Pakistan`s eastern border.

Asked what India expected US President Bush to do to reduce Indo-Pak tension, he replied that the international community should have the same yardstick and same standard which was adopted for the Taliban and bin Laden in relation to the September 11 attack on US.

``Whichever part of the world terrorists commit offences should be treated at par and we expect the same standard to be applied.`` Jaitley added that greater pressure should be brought on Pakistan to act against terrorists and their organizations operating on its soil. (With PTI inputs)





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Re: Shankar

``...Youre goddamned right I ABJURE it!...``

Good. Now, do you concede that there is low intensity warfare being waged by Pakistan against India (a la against Afghanistan -- actually Pakistan `took over` Afghanistan through proxies)?

Re: Romair

``...Pakistan cannot just start handing over its citizens to India, as and when India wants...``

Quit deluding yourself by extrapolating Indian demands to any and all citizenes of Pakistan. You know, just as well as us and several Pakistani commentators (both on chowk and in Pakistani newspapers) that Indian demands are for very specific individuals for some of whom there are international Interpol arrest alerts. It is precisely this type of ambivalence and moral fog that gets fools into trouble.

Just checking in with my humble opinion...

I was talking to a relative for whom I have a great deal of respect. This relative is a highly educated professional who has lived in the US for the last 30 years, considers herself an American and is a moderate in her politics. I was a bit surprised when she questioned whether there was enough evidence in identifying the attackers of the Indian Parliament as Muslims or Pakistanis. Admittedly, I was a bit taken aback by what I perceived as a healthy dose of denial; I have taken India`s word that the attack was carried out by Islamic terrorists. What I began to think about is the need of Pakistanis and the rest of the world, for proof. While I know that there are some Chowkies who are understandably outraged by the attack (we should all be outraged) and the subsequent reluctance of Pakistanis in accepting that the attack originated from Pakistani militant groups; perhaps we need to respect the need of these unconvinced groups of people. Once the evidence is presented, there will be little argument as to where the responsibility lies. It is then up to Pakistanis to be courageous enough to accept the evidence and be committed to change, and to give up this very helpless culture of national victimhood.

A question I had asked on an earlier board focused on how conservative or Islamic various Pakistani institutions were. For example, how conservative/Islamic are the Pakistani police? Where are their sympathies viz Kashmir? Do these symapathies translate into an unwillingness to identify terrorist organizations? Can this unwillingness be a part of a greater problem Pakistan must deal with in addressing the fundamentalist element? (Thanks for your response Ali, but you didn`t answer my question)

I also think that the Kashmir issue MUST be addressed and answered by the Kashmiri people and India and Pakistan must be responsible in coming to the table with honesty and the willingness to let Kashmir be self determining. This does not mean that Pakistani terrorist groups or apologists can come up with all kinds of reasons that excuse terrorist actions in India, Pakistan or Kashmir. There is great potential for India and Pakistan to work out some solid negotiations here.

Shankar, I appreciated the complexity of your piece...I see us all as more interconnected than the title of your opinion might express...arguably we live in societies that are relatively successful experiments in plurality, diversity and democracy. I think there were various leaders and inclusive govts in South Asia that were the forerunners of our contemporary societies. But I agree, enough is enough...India nad Pakistan should knock off the drama already...

Happy New Years All!

Re: Romair to Shankar

Romair, I don`t think that you quite got Shankar`s point. Shankar was making a prognosis -- regardless of the past. You, however, were unable to move beyond the past. Happy New Year.

correction #23: ``This shows how evil Indians consider the Pakistan govt. and Pakistanis to be``

should read,

This shows Indians consider the Pakistan govt. and Pakistanis to be evil.

chandan ``Surely the end of fascism in Pakistan and end of India-hatred would take any agenda out of Indian hindua fascists..``

Are you suggesting that the BJP getting elected in India is Pakistan`s fault, also. What about the fact that Indian movies have excellent songs, but poor stories? And the fact that Indian cricket teams, despite having excellent batsmen, have poor bowlers? Is that Pakistan`s fault also? Does the ISI or Benazir or Musharraf hold a gun to every Indian`s head, when they vote for the BJP? What benefit does Pakistan get from getting a party elected in India, that is threatening to destroy Pakistan?

If Indians want to take the agenda out of the ``hindua fascists``` hands, as you have suggested, wouldn`t a better solution be to just not vote for them? And why exactly would the BJP threaten to attack Pakistan, if it knew that this would take the agenda in India out of its own hands. It would only threaten to attack, if it felt it could gain even more votes in India. The BJP itself is hoping its current threatening posture against Pakistan will increase its vote bank in Uttar Pradesh. Wouldn`t you agree?

I have met too many Indians, for too many years, on an hourly basis, to not know them well enough. I have noticed two things about them:

1. On a personal basis, they are very non-violent (while Pakistanis are quite easily provoked). In my ten years of working with hundreds of them, I have seen very few even get angry, much less fight.

2. Indians are quite gullible and believe everything that is thrown at them by their own media and govt. (while Pakistanis are extremely cynical and doubtful about what their govt. and press says); specially when it concerns Pakistan.

This second factor has finally started dominating the first factor, and hence the current war hysteria in India. Indians need to completely sideline their own media (and Pakistan`s media) and see what the international human rights organizations and press say about various Indo-Pak issues. And they need to at least realize there must be a reason why their govt. has banned or sidelined all international organizations from Indo-Pak conflicts. The reason is that the Indian govt. does not want Indians to get a neutral unbiased view of these points of confrontation.

P.S. If there is any Indian who thinks that a war in South Asia will only get Pakistan blown up, while India will survive, I would like to sell them a couple of used cars, and some old furniture in my attic.

Indians (and Pakistanis) should hope and pray that Musharraf keeps the cool head he has kept so far. Because Vajpayee seems to have become extremely hawkish.

saminashah #34
``What I began to think about is the need of Pakistanis and the rest of the world, for proof.``

I agree with you, India needs to put out a coherent account of its investigation since Dec 13 for the sake of ordinary Pakistanis and in order to shut up their idiot delusional columnists. IMO govt-to-govt enough information has been passed on by India for any govt. to be convinced, I donot think the US is taking this seriously merely because India is a growing market.

Those of us who read the Indian press are already acquainted with details which are not given wide coverage in the US press. Those who want to disbelieve will still disbelieve, like the bin Laden tape.

Let me summarize what the Indian police have said:
1. They found cellphones with numbers in the backpacks of the attackers.
2. They traced a number to a Kashmiri professor of Arabic in a Delhi college

3. They arrested him and a few others(mostly Indian Kashmiris), including a medical equipment saleman from Kashmir, Afzal who later spoke to two TV channels in India. They traced the car used in the attack, to whom it was sold and where.

4. This person Afzal identified the five attackers as all Pakistanis, even said one of the attackers was involved in the IC-814 hijacking in Dec 99(yet to be confirmed) and named the mastermind as a Jaish-e-Mohammad leader who is from Bahawalpur, Pakistan and operates in Indian Kashmir.


He even said the Pakistanis made calls to Karachi on the eve of the attack to bid goodbye to their families. One of the conspirators was supposed to watch Parliament proceedings on Indian Doordarshan, so that the attackers would know when Vajpayee arrived? and time their attack accordingly. But since there was a power cut, he couldnot give them the information so the attackers went ahead anyway.

The attackers had an altercation with another car driver on the way to Parliament and had to pay him off. He came forward later to tell the police about it.

More details:

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/dec/16parl.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/dec/20parl10.htm
http://www.iht.com/articles/42850.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36985-2001Dec28.html
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/world/story/0,1870,93712,00.html
http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/Weekly2001/12.18.2001/India.htm
Day-by-day:
http://www.rediff.com/news/pattack.htm

The story was covered in the New York Times too. The articles are now archived, but one can search using the keyword `Afzal`.

Warning : Many people on chowk prefer to believe in jihadis pristine utterances than in ANY evidence put forth by Jews and Hindus (somehow religion is taken to undo the veracity of even the MOST conclusive evidence:)).

Talking of Jews. A NYT editor Jan Hoffman was interviewed on CSPAN some weeks ago and I watched it yesterday. She was in charge of the WTC obituary pages in the NYT and was being asked to relate her experiences of getting in touch with survivors and hearing the stories of the victims and compiling it for the newspaper.

One of her stories was really touching. Apparently, in Orthodox Jewish practice, if the husband goes missing and his body is not found, the wife remains in limbo about her marital status. So apparently, many Orthodox Jewish victims, who realised they weren`t going to even die in one piece, much less survive phoned their rabbis to give instructions for divorce or faxed divorces from their offices in WTC to spare their wives the agony of an uncertain status later. She called these divorces great acts of love. She is Jewish too and I am apprehensive of disrespecting all these people by relating their stories on a place like chowk :(.

#34 saminashah

You know it`s a little too late for providing proof or evidence or whatever else to pakistan. There`s a war coming and soon. Vajpayee has been put into the position of going to war. He has said there can be no more cross-border terrorism and that this will be the last war between india and pakistan. As the pakis say there`s a little unfinished business of partition that needs to be attended to.

From an indian point of view, it`s an open secret that various jihadi outfits operate out of pakistan. No proof needed there. Just as afghanistan was going to provide strategic depth to pakistan, pakistan has been providing strategic depth to the jihadis. They can hit and then hide in pakistan. This is the way it has been for the last 10, 12 years and the situation has got worse since kargil when for the second time (the first one was right after partition) the pak army openly waged a war through the jihadis and firmly aligned itself with them. All this has been masterful from the pak point of view. Wage a war on india without really going to war and losing enlisted soldiers. A low-cost, low-intensity war that would drain india.

From the indian point of view, it`s far better to make the war visible and of high intensity.

I think it`s going to be bloody with a lot of destruction all around but the question is do we spend a billion dollars a year on a protracted low-intensity war that has been costing thousands of lives every year or have a quick one that would (hopefully) settle the issue once and for all.

If i had to choose between the two options i`d choose the latter. But of course between war of any kind and no war, i`d choose peace over war. It`s too late for that now.

All in all, other compulsions have taken over and providing proof to pak citizens is no longer a concern to indians.

Chandan

LISTEN TO YOURSELF

Its exactly the reason Hitler to Saddam Hussain gave before invading France & KUWAIT respectively.

World is ful of tyrant invaders pretending to be liberators which angladeshi learnt quickly after`71



Ok so whats ur point. I dont see any objectivity in your argument. Ok Hitler used that argument, so what. Indian Govt is no Nazi regime (unlike some of our friends here might want us to believe). My point is simple, let this war be the war to end all ``proxy``, ``covert``, ``overt`` wars going on for decades once and for all. Cost benefit analysis if done with detached mind would also favor this approach. We might get idealistic and shout ``Peace`` ``Peace`` like a parrot without realizing peace does not exist in vacuum. Religious-military fascism and democratic-secular ideologies can never converge, how much you hold ``talks`` an ``summits`` about. These elements have to be purged. My reference to WW2 was with respect to choices made by Chamberlain and Churchill. World was sane and pragmatic enough to go for Chruchill option, we can still dread to think what would have been the outcome if we had persisted with Chamberlain kind of choices. I wonder if Vajpayee has will like Chruchill to do a service to this whole subcontinent or he want to bury his head in sand like Ostrich.

If we look at history it was our impotent leaders` fear of ``civil war`` which lead to partition and giving Pakistan on silver platter to those religious fascists. And how ``peaceful`` was that partition. Well the fact is that WARS have to fought for maintaining peace. Cowardliness never leads to durable peace.

re: saminashah

{I also think that the Kashmir issue MUST be addressed and answered by the Kashmiri people and India and Pakistan must be responsible in coming to the table with honesty and the willingness to let Kashmir be self determining.}

...which kashmiri are we to listen to?...the kashmiri upon whom violence and misery was thrust upon by militants from across the border, who in turn invited the army in to create more misery?...the kashmiris whose minds have been brainwashed by those very militants into believing this is some grand muslim-kafir battle?...what kind of relevance does that vote have?...and how can there be a vote in a land which has been ethnically cleansed of kashmiri pandits and other non-muslims?...not a very fair vote...

and are we OK setting a precedent in the country where whenever some group has a problem, we have a majority-rules vote and the hell with the minorities...what if, as a dangerous next step to a kashmiri seccession, the hindus of india decide they want their own homeland too, just like the kashmiri muslims got?...can they then kick out everyone else?...if this idea sounds sick, then the idea of kashmir getting a plebiscite because its muslim majority wants it is pretty damn sick as well...

Romairr, #25 ``What about the fact that Indian movies have excellent songs, but poor stories?``

You cannot be serious! The songs are (MAYBE) marginally better than the stories - which isn`t saying much. The days of truly great singers from India seems to be in the past (in the films anyway). And I`ll go so far as to say that the hallmark of truly passionate, longing, poignant shairi as well as singing is no longer there in India. (And no, I don`t watch Indian movies as a rule - I`m forced to undergo that torture for short periods, to be polite, when I visit my favorite aunty`s house)

Sharon & Musharaff: Same people



In his interview to Foxnew ``War criminal`` Sharon says:

ARIEL SHARON, PRIME MINISTER, ISRAEL: I really have seen all the horrors of wars. It seems I understand the importance of peace maybe better that many of the politicians that talk about peace, but never had that experience. But for me, peace provides security to Jewish people.

How interesting is that human evil shows up in similar ways in different people. I do remember Mr CE Musharaff selling similar crap of I am a soldier and thats why I can not start war. One need not forget he served in 1971 in Bangladesh and must have been part parcel of holocaust perpetrated there.

Both Sharon and Musharaff have similar aims, one wants to get rid of gentiles from the land which is not his and another wants to get rid of infidels from land which is not his.

Shammi

#32 & 35,

{{Now, do you concede that there is low intensity warfare being waged by Pakistan against India (a la against Afghanistan -- actually Pakistan `took over` Afghanistan through proxies)?}}

Absolutely! I believe Pakistan is equally responsible for this nonsense. Whatever ``moral ascendancy`` the Kashmiri muslims claim is ground to the dust by this low intensity war. They have allowed these SOBs that are being churned out from the madrassahs to take over their fight. I have NO sympathy for these Kashmiri terrorists being killed--no matter who calls them ``freedom fighters``. In the same vein I have no sympathy for the Palestinian terrorists or hamas or the LTTE in Sri Lanka. May they all rot in hell, as far as I`m concerned.

If they use violence to fight their cause--MIGHT BECOMES RIGHT!!

When people have legitimate grievences against opression, let them fight those grievances by non violent agitation. Contrary to what most Pakistanis believe, I believe the imperfect Indian democracy is far far better than anything Pakistan has ever put into place in their own country. A non-violent satyagraha would DEFINITELY succeed in Kashmir. If Pakistanis think Indians are nazi fascists, they are just a bunch of misguided idiots. If there is a Gandhian style non-violent movement in Kashmir, with continued ongoing civil disobedience, the Indians are not going to send them to gas chambers. If anything terrorises India, that will. This ``freedom fight`` just oozes testesterone among Indians. Has this 12 year old insurgency given them EVEN AN INCH OF IOK?!

So, yes, I like Romair`s posts & I think he`s a decent person, but I dont agree with most of what he says. He justifies the ``1000 cuts policy``; eventhough he uses very creative spin:)

So we`re back to square one--no agreement on Kashmir. Thats why I thank you for post #35. I think the subcontinent is doomed--& I`m responsible for it just as much as the rest of you. We are JUST BUYING TIME...thats all..

samina,

Very nice post.

Only one point I dont agree

{{What I began to think about is the need of Pakistanis and the rest of the world, for proof.}}

Here`s the problem (at least they way I view it). India(ns) DOESNT/dont trust Pakistan(is). Right or wrong, fair or unfair, its true. So its pointless to provide proof to someone who you absolutely do not trust. No matter what ``evidence`` you provide them , it will be spun as malicious, fabricated Indian propaganda. Because, the problem is that the Pakistanis trust Indians lesser than Indians trust Pakistanis.

I am absolutely certain that India has shown evidence to the US. I`m also certain Bush is convinced by the evidence. Why the heck would Bush twist Mushy`s arm if he isnt convinced about the evidence? He needs Pakistan`s support much more than he needs India`s, right now, because he wants OBL & Al-Qeeda. He wont get that by antagonising Mushy. If there was even a hint of foul play on India`s side, the US would have questioned it & taken India to task for putting a monkey wrench in the US objective.

Does anybody believe that the US loves India so much that it will compromise her own interests? Does anybody believe that Mushy would have arrested all these people if there was NO evidence, no pressure from the US, because all of a sudden, he thinks the LeT & JM are bad?!

Gee I wish I were a fly on the wall to hear all the behind-the-scene banter going on between the 3 countries.

Soysauce`s post #38 also explains it very well from another viewpoint.

On a similar note..What good did OBL`s tape do? People who believe he was innocent STILL believe he`s innocent. While almost 100% of Americans were convinced without a shadow of doubt, the Islamic world continues to be highly skeptical & even cynical.

Bottom line (& I agree its sad)--``world opinion`` means very little. What matters more is US opinion--because the US is the toughest kid on the block. You know & I know & every Indian & Pakistani knows that Mushy is a ``hero in the fight against terrorism``--not because the US respects him--its because they NEED him & he does what they want (smart man). Too bad, Mushy isnt like URstruly--Indians would be dancing in the streets if he were:)

chandan,

{{Sitting in USA surely you can lecture people about peace..}}

You goddamned mofo, you sit in the US & lecture the ``subcontinent`` about war! nuclear war?! Cost-benefit ratio?

On top of that, you hypocritical besharam claim to have attended that ``peace rally`` in San Jose?!!, shake hands with the owner of Chowk & advocate the benefits of war on Chowk?!

Harimou,

Did you invite this chut from your RSS shaka?!

shankar:

{The dominant discourse among Indians is ``F what Pakistanis think of us; for that matter F what the rest of the world thinks of us; we are going to keep Kashmir even if it destroys us!``.}

….and you can add F what the kasmiris think of us to the list…..why is it always we want, we want, we want?……ever thought of what the kashmiris want?..

I am an expartriate Indian living in the USA.

I do not believe that that the event of Dec 13 was

orchestrated with the knowledge of Gen Musharaff. In this I agree with many posters in chowk that the timing of this act suggests that it could not have been orchestrated with Gen. Musharaff`s knowledge. My belief is that it was orchestrated by one of the Pakistan based terrorist groups which at one time or other was supported/financed by the Pakistani govt and/or its people.

Having said that I do beleive that the state of Pakistan and/or its official machinary have been engaged in a low intensity proxy war with India for last several years. My belief is based on Pkaistani newspapers columns, Inidan newspapers and recent reports in papers such as the NY Times. (See for example http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/02/international/asia/02STAN.html)

I am not so sure of the superiority of India`s military over Pakistan`s. So I am not in support of a war. But I fully support measures short of war. In this I fully support all recent actions taken by the current government of India (while I oppose many of its other actions unrelated to this such as certain revisions of text books, etc.). I think enough is enough, and it is time to break the friendly facade with a governement that is waging a low-intensity war with India.

The day i am concvinced that the Pakistani govt has stopped this war I will be back to my earlier position of striving for an open border (like EU but tailored to the subcontinent sensibilities) which will make the Kashmir problem almost obsolete. But until then I would be supportive of cutting of all links with the Pakistan govt.

In this regard i would like to point out that Tamil rebels in Srilanka were once supported by Inidia but no one thinks India does the same now.

So, if and when Pakistan stops the direct support of anti-India terrorists India and the world will know about it. India supports the Tibetian cause but does not train/finance anti-Chinese terrorists; so Pakistan can continue supporting the Kashmiri cause without training/financing anti-India terrorists.

This is my personal opinion.

sincerely,

Cbaral

saminashah #34: ``Admittedly, I was a bit taken aback by what I perceived as a healthy dose of denial; I have taken India`s word that the attack was carried out by Islamic terrorists. What I began to think about is the need of Pakistanis and the rest of the world, for proof.``

Why have you taken India`s word? Under what precedent.? There are some Pakistanis who have suggested the whole affair was stage managed by India, like the last fake hijacking. One could take their word also. Neither group has provided any proof. How about taking no ones word, until some proof is provided? This is how the world`s legal system works. The only country that can get away with attacking other countries without proof is the USA. And even it makes some effort to give some proof.

Insignificant concepts like proof seem to have lost merit in declaring people and countries to be criminal, or innocent. Does India hand over people to other countries without proof? No. But it does expect other countries to do so. Am I the only one who sees something illegal and illogical in this.

This is the primary reason for conflict. This is the primary problem that I have been highlighting also. Indians (and even a few Pakistanis) need to stop being brainwashed by the Indian govt. and media. Otherwise, the phrase, ``people want peace, govt. wants war`` loses its significance.

Yesterday night a bomb exploded in Karachi. Pakistan could blame it on India and pile up its forces on the border. Luckily, Pakistan is not doing that and is carrying out its own investigation.

I would strongly suggest that Indians look at reports from Human Rights agencies to figure out Pakistani Indian conflicts. Otherwise Indians will get us all killed. At least question (or answer) the fact that why has India gone out of its way to sideline international agencies, in all Indo-Pak conflicts, including the current one. The other option is to of course believe everything the BJP throws out, like a robot, and follow in its footsteps, like Indians are currently doing.

Pakistan should take the people who are on the list from India, and present them to the International Court of Justice. It should then tell India to present its case against those people in the International Court. Pakistan should also present a list of similar Indians to India and ask for the same. The ICJ should then give a decision on these people. And that should be accepted by everyone.

If India doesn`t accept the decision, or the ICJ, then I am afraid, it wants war for reasons other than what it is putting out.

Shankar

The article is pathetic attempt to sideline the issues and maintaining a status quo

``I think its pointless to debate ``who`s at FAULT``--there will never be any agreement, just blame, justifications, shouting matches & insults. The end result will be the same--an angry stalemate.``

It is obvious where the fault is:

1. Fault is with those who refuse to act on UN resolutions.

2. Fault is with those who beat the drum of democracy and still deny the citizenship rights of their fellow citizens.

3. Fault is with those who use state machinery to murder 80,000 kashmiris, rape countless women, and murder innumerable babies.

4. Fault is with those who commit neked aggression on neighboring countries in Siachin and East Paksitan and then whine when favor is returned at Kargil

5. Fault is definitely with the people whose constitution is devils contract and kali maa`s wish list, under which laws such as Disturbed Area Act of 1990 is enacted and a bali of 80,000 humans is presented to kaali maa.

I can go on and on but you are right, everything will fall on deaf ears. That is what one can expect from the hindu nation of murderers, rapists, and baby-killers. Fault is also with us because we expect a human conscience from them.

Shankar,

You goddamm Hindu apologist, you been eating chili dogs too long. Please feel free to sit ``safely`` across the seas but be smart enough to keep your mouth shut. Or some poor misguided soul might actually make the mistake of taking you seriously.

Whatever happened to good old patriotism? Works fine in the US, huh? So how come us un-civilised people are not allowed to feel it? The Paki mufukkas (to borrow a DRUMZ term) have been screwing us in the asss too damm long. If you have adjusted to a nice comfortable state of denial don`t drag the rest of us into your morass.

I know exactly how people like you think: I am a ``liberated`` Indian, I do not identify with 90% of my countrymen, I have many Muslim friends, I know several nice Pakis, There is so much evil in Hindu society, Islam at several levels is superior to Hinduism: look at how Pakistani cricket team plays on Fridays! etc. You make me sick.

Lissen good: they been causing trouble in Kashmir since 1948 in the name of protecting their jaatbhais from the kafirs (that`s us). They tried not once, not twice, but four times, each time getting stronger and more insidious. Now they operate through their co-religionists by invoking Allah`s name, who have nothing to do with India or its problems. They have the nerve to call what is happening in Kashmir a ``freedom struggle``, in reality it`s nothing more than a ploy to get even for Bangladesh and to get back that K into Pakistan. Maybe they should consider changing their name to Pathetikistan. Very apt.

People like you, Shankar, are dead inside. Brought up as you are with a pervasive sense of guilt, you are pathetic apologists who can never have the courage to take a stance that will make you unpopular in your ``circles``. My advice is: do not belittle the sacrifices made by your fellow Indians whether they be soldiers dying on the front or farmers on the border who evacuate their whole villages to accomodate the army, or indeed Kashmiris, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, who live in fear and some glimmer of hope that one day the soldiers of Allah will leave them to their lives of peace and stop using them as pawns in their dirty games. Bloody Sudanese and Egyptians and Chechens aaye hai hero banne, can they even say they have solved problems in their own countries?

So shut up Shankar, because people like you will never understand how those ``liberal`` Pakis will laugh at you behind your back for being a cowardly Hindoo who doesn`t eat meat and worships 330 million Gods. And then grin like a moron and tell them sorry. It`s all you can do.

Romair,

I will admit that I am one of those South Asians-Americans who is wholeheartedly committed to negotiations and better relationships between the various countries in South Asia. While there are members of my Partition surviving family who still have ambivalent feeling towards the subcontinent, I have the particular experience of not only not having experienced the bitterness between the Pakistan and India, but also the experience of being more detached from emotionally laden nationalisms (be they Pakistani or American). This distance doesn`t make me better or worse off than the next Chowkie...and I am interested in listening to and respecting the various experiences and viewpoints coming from the Subcontinent.

Re: Evidence. It would not be entirely fair to dismiss those who are pretty sure Pakistani based groups are responsible for jihadi terrorist acts in South Asia as being slavish to India. While I agree with you that convincing evidence is necessary in evaluating any situation, honestly, Pakistan`s track record has not been inspiring in Kashmir, Afghanistan or Pakistan. We have supported the Taliban and other groups that use violence as a way of resolving disputes. These methods are inexcusable, no matter what India or Israel does, and we lose enormous credibility when we condone, facilliate and then refuse to acknowledge and address these groups. There is some element of denial that exists in the Muslim world; (as does in other countries...) what will it take for us to deal with the fundamentalism in Pakistan?

There is some conjucture from intellectual circles regarding bin laden`s guilt for the WTC; I have heard that Noam Chomsky delivered a lengthy speech at MIT last week on bin laden, and am waiting to hear it. Still, evidence links laden sahib to past bombings in Africa; he should be held accountable for those ``actions`` at the very least. (We Muslims seem less concerned about those acts of terrorism.) The videos of bin laden have convinced me as they have other Muslims like Ahmed Rashid. As other folk have pointed out, those who refuse to accept the presence of a network of extremist groups of which bin laden is part, do so willfully and shortsightedly.That the Pakistani govt. is investigating the saddening bombing in Pakistan and not rushing to blame India, is a step in a reasonable direction.

regards

soysauce

I am really hoping that an agreement is reached and de-escalation begins.

sadna

Thanks for the links. I shall be printing out the text for my relative. Btw, the situations of the Jewish women who lost their husbands in the WTC are very moving...how difficult that must be...

rsax

perhaps a coalition govt. along the lines of what is taking place in Afghanistan? Plus, an organization of Indian, Pakistani, Kashmiri, Bangladeshi, Nepalese, Sri Lankan, Uzbeki, Chinese, Irani, govts that are united in working together in humanely defusing extremist groups? A scenario that would occur in an ideal world, granted, but why not?

regards

Re: Romair to Saminashah

``...Why have you taken India`s word?...``

Because Samina reads more than just Indian words. She also reads the NY Times, which has this to say today:

``Senior officials said today that Pakistan`s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, had ordered the country`s military intelligence agency to cut off backing for Islamic militant groups fighting in the disputed territory of Kashmir...Although Pakistani officials questioned the evidence India had against the two groups, they acknowledged that the groups were responsible for about 70 percent of all attacks in Indian-ruled Kashmir in the last three years...as Lashkar- e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Muhammad took over. The militant groups shifted increasingly to political assassinations, car bombings and attacks on villages that killed large numbers of Kashmiri civilians, mostly Hindus and Sikhs as well as Muslims accused of collaborating with the Indian authorities.``

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/02/international/asia/02STAN.html

So, Romair -- begin the new year with a good deed -- speak the truth, and nothing but the truth. Not half-truths.

Re: Romair

``...Pakistan should take the people who are on the list from India, and present them to the International Court of Justice...``

Romair, you have absolutely no understanding of the ICJ, do you? ICJ is not a criminal court for trying individuals. It will never accept the people that you want to be handed over to them. But, go ahead, and give it a shot.

You had also earlier said, ``why should Pakistan hand over Pakistanis to India...``

Well, turns out that most of the people on the list are not Pakistanis at all -- they are Indians. How does it feel to be repeatedly proven wrong in a public forum? Read this from the NY Times:

``...India is now trying to test General Musharraf`s intentions. On Monday it handed over a list of 20 people, most of them Indians, who are suspected of committing sensational acts of terrorism over the last 10 to 15 years. India says these accused men are fugitives who have been given sanctuary in Pakistan and must be handed over for trial here...``

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/02/international/asia/02INDI.html

Re: Shankar #43

I am pleased to learn that you and I agree on the moral absolutism that terrorism is bad no matter whatever the cause it purports to support.

``..I think he`s (Romair) a decent person...He justifies the ``1000 cuts policy``...``

We can discuss this in detail some other time. Let us start the new year on a more pleasant note.

Re: Saminashah

``...What I began to think about is the need of Pakistanis and the rest of the world, for proof...``

The Lashkar-e-Toiba (the leader of which India wants, and Musharraf has just arrested) has issued this threat against the Taj Mahal:

``...LUCKNOW, India (Reuters) - A Pakistan-based Kashmiri militant group, which India blamed for an attack on its parliament last month, has threatened to blow up the Taj Mahal, an Indian official said Wednesday...``

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020102/wl/southasia_india_tajmahal_dc_1.html

But don`t worry, Romair will never be convinced, and he will keep asking you for proof, and ask you to not read Indian propaganda (the above story is from Reuters, BTW, not Indian media)

``Indian, Pakistani FMs smile, chat

(Updated at 1630 PST)

KATMANDU: The foreign ministers of India and Pakistan smiled at each other and chatted, breaking weeks of tension between the nuclear-armed neighbors, during a gathering of South Asian nations on Wednesday.`` (NEWS, Pakistan)

I cannot believe this. The Indian Minister actually agreed to smile with the Pakistani Minister. I thought Indians he would first want Pakistan to end hostilities before they agreed to smile with Pakistan.......

shankar #45: ``I am absolutely certain that India has shown evidence to the US. I`m also certain Bush is convinced by the evidence. Why the heck would Bush twist Mushy`s arm if he isnt convinced about the evidence?``

The world will become a very dangerous place if the President of the USA, or of any other country (including India and Pakistan), is given the position of the ultimate judge. That is something people should be fighting against, not supporting. Americans themselves never allow the the President any power over their own judiciary. How can you, as an American support the US President as the world`s chief judge?

Luckily that stage has not been reached. Nor will it ever be reached. There is no law in the world that states that Bush can unilaterally decide the legalities or illegalities of international affairs. At least, I do not know of any such law. Perhaps the UN should be done away with, as should the ICJ. And the US President should be given the power, which he doesn`t even enjoy in his own country`s national affairs, i.e. the power of judiciary on all international affairs.

One cannot just start a war, or support it, because one feels (doesn`t know, just feels) that Bush has been shown evidence. Has Bush stated that he has been shown evidence? No. India is not even ready to involve the FBI? Why not? Even if he had been shown evidence, why not present all the evidence at the correct authority, i.e. the ICJ? India does not trust Pakistan, does it not trust the ICJ either, or the UN? Even in case of the US, it only trusts the US when it supports India; not when it gives a decision against India.

If we do accept the scenario that the President of the US is the final judicial authority, then we need to accept all his decisions. He has also stated that the Kashmiris should have self-determination. Why not listen to that, as well?And if India is not listening to that, then should Pakistan move its forces to the borders and be in a constant state of active war with India, because India is unwilling to uphold Bush`s decision.

Bush has been pressurising Musharraf for a long time to limit the actions of certain organizations. Long before Dec. 13. Musharraf himself jailed many leaders of the religious extremist and even non-extremist parties before Dec. 13, and after Sep. 11. These are five organizations out of a total of 280 in the whole world, that the UN has highlighted, that exist in Pakistan. Pakistan has banned those.

Let me open up my psychiatry encyclopedia:

1. ``self-fulfilling prophecy - The prediction of events that do in fact come about, because of one`s belief in the prediction and enactment or lack of enactment on that belief, thus reinforcing the belief, i.e., if a person or group predicts and deeply believes that certain events will come about, that person or group will (sometimes unconsciously) modify behaviors or engage in those behaviors that will create those situations that will cause the predicted events to come about. Robert K. Merton developed this concept out of his interpretation of W. I. Thomas` ``definition of the situation,`` i.e., ``If men define things as real, they are real in their consequences.``

Indian arguments are supporting the above prophecy. India wants to blame Pakistan for its internal problems. It will view all evidence or lack thereof, all actions of Bush, all international organizations decisions, in such a manner that support its prophecy. However, it will avoid the logical solution of presenting evidence openly and honestly to International Courts, which are specifically created to solve such crises.

As an example, suppose India today makes a request to the US stating that Mr. Shankar has been making anti-BJP statements on Chowk, and that the BJP has proof that Shankar is a terrorist. Hence the USA should extradite Shankar to India, however India will not release any evidence to the USA or to any international court. However, it does seem to some Indian commentators that India has released evidence to the President of Zambia. The Zambian President himself has not stated anything about the evidence. The Zambian FBI has not been allowed by India to investigate. But the Zambian President seems to be pressing the USA to jail Shankar. Under such a situation, should Mr. Shankar be handed over to India, immdiately by the USA, without a local or international trial?

Since we are on the subject of terrorism, did you know that the current Ambassador of Afghanistan to India, Mr. Khalili, was part of a Northern Alliance hijacking of a Pakistani school bus. India is one of the strongest supporters of the leaders of the Northern Alliance. Please check out the amount of terrorism people like Dostum and the other NA high flyers have carried out in Afghanistan, at www.rawa.org. Perhaps India should pile up its forces on the Afghanistan border also, if it wants to assist in rooting out international terrorism.

In the past year, out of the 250 suicide bombings, 160 were carried out by the Tamil Tigers (who by the way are Hindus and not Muslims; not that it makes any difference to me, but it may to our Indian contributors). If I remember correctly, didn`t India have a hand in creating these guys, and supporting them? At least that is what the BBC says. So Indian should pile up forces on the Sri Lankan border, as well.

And Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi were actually assasinated by Pakistani problems, not due to anything inside India. And we all know, ``Who framed Roger Rabbit.`` Of course it was the Pakistanis. So lets attack Pakistan for that, also.

Proof Shmoof and international judicial trials; who the hell cares about ridiculous concepts like that. Let`s just nuke each other.

My point being that Pakistan has just as many complains against India, if not more, than India has against Pakistan. There are many issues on which Bush has not supported the Indian view (including Kashmir). The way to solve all these complains is not to threaten an all out war, without proof.

In case of Kashmir, where Indian minister himself has admitted 61,000 deaths, Pakistan has proof in the form of UN Resolutions, which were based on the work done by two Americans: Admiral Nimitz and the father of Madeline Albright, were signed by the US, and have been supported by each US President since WWII, yet India is still not agreeing to them. Despite the above, Pakistan has not amassed armies on the India border, and is willing to talk to India.

How can India justify threatening war on Pakistan, due to the actions of six terrorists, resultling in less than ten deaths, for which no proof has been presented, and no resolution been passed by the UN, or any decision been given by an international court. I hate religious extremism just as much as the next guy, but I do believe in trials and proof.

The main advocate of the current potential military conflict is Mr. Advani of the BJP (I should say India, since Indians elect the BJP). He seems to have dominated the otherwise moderate Vajpayee. Advani`s claim is that he is against religious extremism in Pakistan. Point taken. So are 99.9% of Pakistanis. However, Advani is so much against religious extremism that he is willing to declare war on Pakistan, without any legal proceedings. Most Pakistanis, like myself, are willing to arrest criminals in Pakistan, and even hand them over to India, provided a neutral trial is held, and evidence is provided. But Mr. Advani doesn`t believe in such concepts for Pakistanis. He only believes in them for himself.

If memory serves me correctly, wasn`t Mr. Advani himself wanted in one of the most irrational cases of religious extremism ever carried out anywhere in the world. Tearing down a mosque is bad. Tearing down a mosque as a symbol of national identity, and as a part of one`s party`s manifesto (www.bjp.org) is even worse. Tearing down a mosque, which results in deaths second only to those that occured in the WTC is pathetic. Doing so in one`s own country against one`s own minority population is uncomprehensible. After doing that, then getting elected as the no. 2 leader in one`s country is out of this world. After gettting elected, then declaring war (potentially nuclear) against a neighbor for harboring religious militants, but not agreeing to a trial in an international court makes me speechless.

Shouldn`t India first carry out trials against Mr. Advani, before it declares war on Pakistan? People who may think of tearing down a Shia or Sunni mosque, or temples etc. are being banned and arrested in Pakistan. They can never win a single seat, much less become the no. 2 person in power.

Such people, however, seem to be calling the shots in India. Perhaps Indians should worry about their own Lashkars first.

``Ministers accused

The high court`s decision paves the way for criminal proceedings against those accused of crimes relating to the demolition and the riots that followed.

But the court rejected the notice served against eight politicians from the ruling party, the BJP, including the Home Minister LK Advani.

LK Advani: Off the hook

Three years ago, a local court decided there were sufficient grounds to charge the ministers as well as the the hardline Hindu leader Bal Thackeray.

But the high court dismissed that verdict on technical grounds.`` (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1166000/1166448.stm)

Shammi, Romair, Tahmed, Shankar

Err...yes...if you have checked today`s NYTimes (which, honestly, I haven`t had a squint at today) there doesn`t seem to be any huge surprises here...Tahmed I want to bring up a point you made on another board, which was roughly, Pakistan must face the reality that it is being taken for hostage by fundamentalist terrorist orgs., and on top of that, a need to feel everything is a conspiracy...is there a country that is as unique and special as Pakistan in that there are secret military groups that want to frame us in terrorist attacks? (oh dear, lapsing into sarcasm...)

Re: Shankar

{{Sitting in USA surely you can lecture people about peace..}}

You goddamned mofo, you sit in the US & lecture the ``subcontinent`` about war! nuclear war?! Cost-benefit ratio?

On top of that, you hypocritical besharam claim to have attended that ``peace rally`` in San Jose?!!, shake hands with the owner of Chowk & advocate the benefits of war on Chowk?!

Harimou,

Did you invite this chut from your RSS shaka?!



Without stooping to your language I just want to make clear I dont have any sympathies for RSS nor pseudo Peaceniks like you. I believe war is sometimes really necessary for durable peace. Choice for cowardly ``peace`` is very easy to make for weaklings like you. But choice for a war for ``durable peace`` only braves can make and they do have ignore voices like you.

As for calling me ``chut``. Its very amusing.. Did u use to denigrate me!! If yes there shows your RSS or whatever India male ``samskaras`` you subconsciously have, which makes you feel that female genetalia is the dirtiest thing in the world. Tell this to all of the female readers here, tell this to your female near and dear ones.. Ask their opinion about it.. So Shankar tell me did you stop eating your mother`s food when she used to have those days, if you consider ``chut`` to be so dirty. If you are married, do you step out of your house for small ``weekend`` vacation when your wife has those days. Stupid moron you accusing me from RSS, you show a backward mentality of 16th century. You basically prove that spatial dislocation hardly changes the mentality. I you have real shame or realization of stupid comment you made, you should apologize to all the female folks here.

Dear Romair (#58)

You are correct when you say that when Mr. Advani advocates war he is doing what the majority of Indians want him to say. But tell me this: it was hardly three years ago when our PM, with the full support of the Indian electorate and his cabinet, went to Lahore on a peace mission. The same BJP that you blame now for advocating war, at that time was busy touting the trip as the major achievement of its one year in office. This was clearly becoz they beleived that the Indian people approved. Now the same Govt. is buckling up for war, and again with a nod from the Indian people. All within three years! Clearly Indians did not initially want war. But they would not mind one now.

Do you think that this vast change in the national mood is just due to the manipulations of the ``fascist`` BJP which has fooled a billion plus people? Even if one accepts the Pakistani govt.`s claims that it has no control over the jehadi outfits operating from its territory, has Pakistan no responsibility if it feeds and keeps the dog which crosses the fence and bites the neighbours?

Whether there is enough evidence or not to convince an international jury, for better or for worse, the Indian public has made up its mind and passed a guilty verdict. The decision was not a hasty one, it has been two decades in the making. And the verdict also seems to be accepted by the world community at large, and now it seems by Pres. Musharraf too. The question is where do we go from here?

-narain

Re: Romair on Advani

``...The main advocate of the current potential military conflict is Mr. Advani...``

Did Advani give you a call to confirm this? Or is it clever guesswork on your part?

Romair, go and obtain the facts of Liberhans Commission (the Commission of Inquiry to look in the Babri Masjid fiasco), and find out how Advani was subpoenaed and forced to testify. The Commission is still active, and nobody is off the hook until the matter remains subjudice. Is there any such judicial commission inquiring into the activities of the JeM/LeT, (until India stepped up its protests and compelled Musharraf to act)? None of this is to say that the demolition was not barbaric -- it was. The law is taking its course, slowly but surely -- whether Advani likes it or not.

May Allah turn recession on its head and bring back the golden era of dot coms sending dollar bills stapled to their merchandise. This will allow ROmair to get some work and save us the mortal ones from enduring his sermons.

Ameen sum Ameen.

later

-sac

Time to declare war:

``Four Indian agents held

TANDO ADAM: Four people, allegedly involved in planting bomb at railway track in Tando Adam, district Sanghar on December 25 last, have been arrested by police along with another bomb and subversive material.

Addressing a news conference here on Wednesday, SSP Sanghar Shahid Hanif said the arrested terrorists confessed that they received terrorists` training in India and had visited the country several times.`` (NEWS, Pakistan)

I think Pakistan should now declare war on India. It should carry out the largest mobilization of forces in thirty years. It should arm its missiles and nuclear weapons. And under no circumstances, should it agree to providing any evidence, under any international law. It is time that Pakistan finally decide everything with India, once and for all, and threaten nuclear war.

Oh wait!! Someone already beat us to it.....

Anytime any terrorist activity takes place in any country, it should declare war on the other, without bothering about legalities. That is the best way to handle Indo-Pak conflicts. Now if only the Indians would agree to such an approach....

Indians are in big trouble now.

If you thought the Pakistani men were bigger and tougher (not to mention better looking) than you guys (not counting Sikhs; who are honorary Pakistanis, anyways :-)), just wait till the Pakistani women get at you.

``PABF to introduce women`s boxing

KARACHI: ...Pakistan Amateur Boxing Federation (PABF) has decided to launch women boxing in Pakistan soon.

The joint secretary and spokesmen of PABF, Ali Akbar Shah disclosed to PPI here on Wednesday that PABF is expected to announce this month the formation of its women wing and invite the interested Pakistan women boxers to join the women boxing.`` (NEWS, Pakistan)

I would highly encourage all Pakistani females on Chowk to join. Boxing is good for your health. It smoothens your complexion. Removes dandruff and split ends. And gets rid of cellulite. Not to mention the fact, it will make Advani think twice, before launching his nukes.

http://www.markazdawa.org/English/magazines/VOICE/200108/activities_of_lashker.htm

My favourite is this typical listing under `Jihadic activities`:
July 7 : 7 polytheist Hindus dispatched to Hell

:)

Romair #65, `` would highly encourage all Pakistani females on Chowk to join. Boxing is good for your health. It smoothens your complexion. Removes dandruff and split ends. And gets rid of cellulite.``

yeah, i think i`ll join, just to beat the crap out of MCP`s like yourself.

shankar bhai,

i actually agree with `chandan.` you shouldn`t have used THAT word.

though i wouldn`t mind you calling him a dickhead, since that term fits male psyches pretty well.

lets leave females out of it.

I hate that situation has come to this point and war clouds are looming over our heads. god forbid if war happens I will have almost 90% of my relatives and friends in the war zone. It is giving me very nervous, scared and helplessness feeling.

having said that...the way some of the jihadis are showing to be the most anti-war peace loving souls while hiding their wet pants..it does give me some pleasure.

Romair #65

if the news is true then who is really in trouble is Pakistani men.:)

Romair,

{{Anytime any terrorist activity takes place in any country, it should declare war on the other, without bothering about legalities. That is the best way to handle Indo-Pak conflicts. Now if only the Indians would agree to such an approach}}

Absolutely right! Kill the frikking banias!:)

OK seriously, your point is well taken--so stop beating a dead horse. There is really NO mechanism to do that. The UN & World Court, in theory, are supposed to be avenues where conflicts were supposed to be resolved in a civilised fashion. Those mechanisms are nothing but a farce. Time & again, they have been sidelined by the very countries that created them in the first place.

In reality; a new world order is already forming--esp since GWB came to the White House. Americans (Republicans in particular) seem to have a very clear, ``uncomplicated`` view of what is ``good`` & what is ``bad``. Of course, America is ``good`` & those who disagree are ``bad``. Those AMERICANS who disagree are ``hand wringing, bleeding heart liberals``. They are totally sidelined. 90+% of Americans are approving GWB`s actions today. What does that tell you?!

During the Cold War, at least the Soviet Union would provide some counterbalance. Not to say that the Soviets were ``good``. Personally, compared to America, they were bigger, hypocritical mofos. Now youre hoping (& betting) that China will be an effective counterbalance to America in the next 20 years. Wow! compared to what China has done (& is doing) in Tibet & Xinjaing (?sp), Indians are frikking saintly in Kashmir:) Of course, that doesnt stop your hero Mushy to appeal to all ``freedom loving Chinese`` to stop agitating for their rights & become GOOD Chinese citizens.

OK. Let me retierate that when it comes to hypocracy, deviousness & double standards, Indians are right up there-- among the top ten! Conscience in India?!---foggitaboutit! When it comes down to the nitty gritty, I`m just as big a mofo hypocritical Indian as the rest of the billion. So when my Indian ``friends`` accuse me of being a handwring, hypocrite, peacenik Paki hugger & kisser upper-- I cant completely disagree; but I enjoy giving gaalis to those chu-- er, sorry, dickheads:)

Now, about Pakistan. When you are directly asked if Pakistan`s conduct is right in Kashmir; or if Pakistan does`nt support terrorism or if Pakistan is this pious, peace loving nation that is built on the principles of Jinnah?---you stand up & say NOOO-I NEVER SAID THAT--DONT YOU DARE TWIST MY WORDS! With righteous indignation, to boot. But thats how you SPIN it, in your arguments, my friend. Deny it as much as you want. But just listen to what you say. And dont you DARE ask me ``just show me one post where I said that?!`` I`m not the only Indian who calls you a spin doctor. So come join our ``Hypocrite Club``. And, one more thing---for Heaven`s sake, get a slightly thicker skin when you are criticised--``unfairly``, by us, of course:)

So you want to fight this unfair, hypocritical new World Order by immigrating to Canada, eh?! Do you have any idea what youre talking aboooot? Those Canucks are backing the US 100%. Maybe cos their skulls have been hit by too many hockey pucks.

Oh, dont look at me that way! I can almost see your fair Kashmiri complexion turn beet red:) If there`s one thing I hate, its your stony silence when youre mad. Hey, a cowardly bania like me prefers to fight on Chowk than against your ``world famous`` military:)

Peace, brother!

scout #67: You need to develop a sense of humor. Life without humor leads to violence and uptightness. At least let others enjoy humor, if you don`t want to.

There is enough abuse on this site, as it is. No need to add more to it. The last thing this site needs is a group of people who think they are, ``justly`` abusing others. In that sense, people like Chandan are better. At least, they know they are abusing, and do so openly, without a chip on their shoulder. They are not trying to turn themselves into an abuse police, by abusing others.

Everyone isn`t your enemy. So learn to crack jokes and smile a little bit. Or mind you own business, and at least let others smile. Or continue your abuse. Your choice....

Peace Rally

To stop war between India-Pakistan

Date: Saturday, January 5, 2002

Time: 10:00 A.M.

Place: Union Square
San Francisco
Corner of Powell and Gary

Please be on time

Please urge your friends to attend. All peace loving people are invited to participate, regardless of nationality, color or creed.

Romair #74,

you need to lighten up brother :)

i was adding to your sense of humor

Re: Bhardwaj

``...And unfortunate part is India ...``

I think that in such matters, you mind your own business, and we mind ours.

re: shrinker

``hypocracy``

...for over a year now i have seen you abuse butcher this fine word with your horrendous spelling...here goes a new year`s gift from me to you: H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-S-Y

got it?

...you are an embarrassment to the indian education system, which you claim to be a product of...i doubt your claim...most schools in india will beat your knuckles with a metal ruler till you learn to spell and add...

shankar #73: Your points, as usual, are well taken.

Your views about America are correct; unfortunate, illegal, immoral in terms of foreign policy; but correct all the same.

``There is really NO mechanism to do that.``

Actually there is a mechanism to do that. It is the mechanism of the UN and ICJ. If you take a look at the resolutions and decisions passed by these two organizations, you will be surprised how fair many of them are (the whole Western world votes against the US on Israeli related resolutions). The problem is there is no way for any of these organizations to implement their decisions. But at least, they do point out who is in the wrong. That is better than just declaring war on each other.

Pakistan has been able to prove in the UN that India`s stance on lack of plebescite in Kashmir is immoral and illegal. However, the UN has not been able to force India to take any action. Pakisatan would have gotten a decision in its favor in the ICJ for the Naval aircraft case, however India sidelined the ICJ. However, if India was able to get a decision against Pakistan in these two institutions, Pakistan would not be able to ignore it. Pakistan is not influential enough. If it did ignore it, then there would be quite a bit of justification for India threatening Pakistan, and Pakistan would not have any way to protest.

If the ICJ declares certain Pakistanis to be involved in the terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament, and Pakistan does not hand them over, then India can attack Pakistan to its heart`s desire. I would have no argument. After all, that is exactly the argument I have been using to justify the Kashmiri freedom struggle.

I hope George Bush`s view of the world isn`t as simplistic as you have pointed out. If it is then it will only result in more terrorism against the US. So far there has been no effective deterence developed to counter people who, rightly or wrongly, are willing to die for a cause. Perhaps W. has come up with one.

What the world (and Kashmir) needs are Marshall plans, of all varieties. If the US assists in rebuilding Afghanistan, it will gain the Afghans as allies. If the Indians do the same in Kashmir, they will get the same results. If the US does so in Palestine, same results.

The world will become a much better place if there are no superpowers. That is what successful Western democracies go out of their way to implement within their own countries, i.e. no single province or state should be able to veto and dominate the other provinces or states. However, in foreign policy, they do exactly the opposite.

If the world cannot have zeor superpowers, then it needs to have two or more.

Yo Saxena!

Heheh--of all the damn things to criticise, you pick on my spelling?! C`mon, pal of mine, youre losing your touch. At least come up with some creative insults to strengthen our friendship.

Hows this: you idiotic quack; did you get youre degree out of a crackerjack box?! $#%$

Sheesh, I gotta do everything to keep up our friendship. This wont do, you know..

PS ..say anything , but dont call me a chut. Its become a big no no around here..

Shankar,

I lost some respect for you when you failed to reply to my last post, but after reading this last monstrosity of yours, I`m more convinced than ever that you`re a wuss, a loser, a pathetic excuse for a human being who will never take any pride in what he does and spend his life with his hands in other people`s sh1t.

Wake up to the fact that Saxena and others here have absolutely no respect for your writing ability and just enjoy kicking you around like a football.

Learn some self-respect man. It`s embarrassing.

SM

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Yo Saxena!

Heheh--of all the damn things to criticise, you pick on my spelling?! C`mon, pal of mine, youre losing your touch. At least come up with some creative insults to strengthen our friendship.

Hows this: you idiotic quack; did you get youre degree out of a crackerjack box?! $#%$

Sheesh, I gotta do everything to keep up our friendship. This wont do, you know..

PS ..say anything , but dont call me a chut. Its become a big no no around here..

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

anybody,

I`ve never watched Al-Jazeera. Can anybody tell me what Al-Jazeera is saying about Kasmir? They are counterbalancing the Western media re Al-Qeeda.

The way Pakistan talks about India--Hindians are executing & raping Kashmiri muslim civilians by the thousands. Of course, they are quick to point out AI to bolster their claims.

Mullah Urstruly, of course firmly believes we hindus dont have a conscience. O well, people who worship sticks & stones & penis` cant very well have a conscience, can they?! I would like to tell him that the main reason why we hindus dont have a conscience is because we dont want to spend even a second in Heaven with people like him & Mullah Omar--burning in hell for an eternity is a preferable fate; but I wont.

What about the rest of the muslims of the world? Other than pathetic ``resolutions`` written on toilet paper at OIC conferences; why is their conscience not stirred with outrage? Please folks..I`m not talking about the vermin Al-Qeeda mercenaries; but regular muslims in the billion+ strong Ummah?!

No morchas in front of the Indian Embassy, no threats of sanctions or oil embargos? No regular editorials in Arab press like they do about Palestinians? No boycott of Indian exports--even in Saudi Arabia--which still imports more goods & services from India than gasp-Pakistan?!

Urstruly,

Since you take great pride in not ducking questions--Please explain to me why such a lack of conscience in the Ummah?

We hindus are idol worshipping heathens, we are SUPPOSED to be evil conscienseless kafirs. But what about the strange silence from the majority of non-Pakistani muslims?

Gee..maybe theyre terrified of bania anger; more than Allah`s wrath; huh?!

Romair,

{{Pakisatan would have gotten a decision in its favor in the ICJ for the Naval aircraft case, however India sidelined the ICJ.}}

Paki satan?! Now was that a Freudian slip?!:)

The problem with optimists like you is that you yearn for an ideal world. Not that thats a bad quality--more power to you, I say. However, sad to say, it doesnt exist & it will never exist. It has never existed since Adam & Eve ate that bloody apple. Life has never been fair; no matter how much idealists like you try to make it fair. Sometimes, I think you should step back & learn to accept the fact that policy should be based on pragmatic interests. The minute you bring ``morality`` into it--EVERYBODY becomes a hypocrite.

Ofcourse, I`ll have you know, its because its ALL ISI`s FAULT!:)

The GoP is shouting on the rooftops of the world about LEGALITY--ofcourse on behalf of the poor, oppressed Kashmiris.

Could you tell me, my fair friend, how the GoP has respected LAW in its history?

-not a SINGLE leader of Pakistan has ever relinquished power by its OWN laws.

-Consitutions are changed by the whims of the prevailing leaders--military & civilian.

-an electrol victory was answered with a bloody massacre in 71. Pakistan is INTROSPECTIVE?!

BULLS *IT!! You & a few responsible Pakistanis maybe introspective. Have ANY of the perpetrators of that sad history ever been arrested, or made to answer for their war crimes?! Tiger Niazi lives in glorious retirement! For every one of you, there is also a Urstruly who lives in denial & totally unrepentant about what happened!

You think Mushy has?! Why did he get so angry at the Bangladeshi PM at the UN & cancelled a meeting with her?!

I wont belabor the point anymore..

Its hypocracy (screw you, Saxena) for a country to start crying about legalities, when it has & continues to blatantly flount its own laws. Its like a burglar being caught red handed & cries how unfair the legal system is because the cops didnt read the Miranda rights in Spanish, because he doesnt understand English.

I think its the MAIN reason why there is NO sympathy for Pakistan in the eyes of the world--even the Islamic world--when it stands on a moral high horse & cries foul.

Dont get me wrong, it doesnt mean that Indians are angels either. Lord knows they have plenty of skeletons in their closets. No cigar for Indians either. Thats why the world is taking a hands off policy; where Kashmir is concerned. Its a polite way of telling India & Pakistan ``both of you have F-ed up``.

I`ll tell you why I think youre as big a hypocrite as I. When it comes to Pakistan, you justify ``morality`` & ``pragmatism`` exactly when & where it suits Pakistan`s interests.

So, you believe in standing for the rights of oppressed people no matter where they are; eh?!. So how come you are advocating that Pakistan should continue & strenghten relations with China? For a person who believes so passionately for the human right of freedom--how come there is no peep from you when China has trampled the rights of Tibetans, denies religious freedoms to its citizens & even crushes Chinese muslim ``freedom fighters``. And your hero Mushy even has the gall to admonish them to be patriotic Chinese citizens!!! Yup; & you were cheering Mushy`s policy all the way!

AHA!! What the HELL happened to your MORAL stance about standing up for HUMAN RIGHTS?! When it suits your ``spin`` all that goes out of the window--now Pakistan should be realistic & pragmatic! Cant have it both ways, my friend..

YOU, of all people should have taken a stance of denouncing Mushy`s policy towards China!

C`mon Umairr; sometimes I think you actually believe your own bs:)

shankar #83: When I argue a point, I do so on a morality basis, and then on a practicality basis; and on no other basis. What other way is their to argue a point? Either something is morally and ethically right or its wrong. There are many rapists in the world. My argument is that raping someone is wrong. Will that stop the rapists of the world in their crimes? I doubt it. But does that make my argument incorrect? Should I not say that rape is a crime, just because I know that their are Pakistani rapists also? Should I stop saying that rape is crime, because my saying so will not stop any of the rapists? And even if I stop saying rape is a crime, will that make it moral?

I argue my points not as a Pakistani, but as a human being. I have criticised Pakistan far more than I have criticised any other country. Primarily because I am more interested in the improvement of Pakistan, tha