India, Pakistan and America’s Mixed Signals

tahmed321

“semipreciousme #94 Gul is no mere nut case - read his interview on Herald to see how he is now passing off the failed ``ISI foreign policy`` that he and his friends engineered (thereby creating the mess in Afghanistan) to the foreign office in Pakistan.”

…i did read that interview (not to mention all those articles they had on jihadi groups)….needed a chocolate loaded pick-me-up after that…

re: stuka

{Don`t do such zullums on me. Notice, I invited SPM for dinner, not for a round of Bar Hopping. I mean, gimme a break, would you really like to go for a one on one dinner WITH A GUY???

For you, the invitation to visit every watering hole in this fine city stands. And trust me, there are plenty. Good ones too.}

ok ok, that`s fine...as long there is an invitation for something...btw, there`s nothing wrong with having dinner with a guy, as long as you don`t hold hands or light candles to stare in the other fellow`s eyes...

{BTW, I just spent a cpl of days in Bombay.(in Delhi right now). I hereby officially switch my allegiance to Bombay. Bombay has better attitude, better clubs, and definitely more hard earned money as opposed to the filthy corrupt Delhite attitude and way of life (excluding Defence Forces who still mantain dignity)}

...i told you...the thing with bombay is that a lot of it is it indeed hard-earned money, but it`s daddy`s hard-earned money!...although there is a whole class of young graduates from India`s top b-schools working in consulting and investment banking with some pretty fat salaries...

Arrey RSaxena

Don`t do such zullums on me. Notice, I invited SPM for dinner, not for a round of Bar Hopping. I mean, gimme a break, would you really like to go for a one on one dinner WITH A GUY???

For you, the invitation to visit every watering hole in this fine city stands. And trust me, there are plenty. Good ones too.

BTW, I just spent a cpl of days in Bombay.(in Delhi right now). I hereby officially switch my allegiance to Bombay. Bombay has better attitude, better clubs, and definitely more hard earned money as opposed to the filthy corrupt Delhite attitude and way of life (excluding Defence Forces who still mantain dignity)

Stuka:

``This from a person who has managed to convert the Hard Core Hindutvavadis into calling her ``wholly precious`` ;) Bhai, I am impressed.``

....and i`m most flattered...:)

``Regardless of what Binifer once mentioned about your boyfriend`s jealousies,

....binifer`s been spreading vile rumors....esp. since i don`t even know her...

``may I please have the pleasure of taking you out to dinner if you ever visit Boston.``

....the pleasure will be all mine...:)

``I promise, I will sing hossanahs to the memory of MA Jinnah if you say yes. :))``

....um, you`re going to be taking me out to dinner, not ylh...;)

re: stuka

{Regardless of what Binifer once mentioned about your boyfriend`s jealousies, may I please have the pleasure of taking you out to dinner if you ever visit Boston.}

what?!?! i never got such an invitation...i see how this works...you know that nyc bar hopping thing, you`re being taken off the list as we speak...being replaced by Ursturly, even though we`ll have to keep an eye on him to make sure he`s not secretly slipping poison in our drinks...and too bad for you, b.c. just last night some cronies and i found a place where the female:male ratio is about 2...

Re: #88

RSaxena,

Shankar: {We hindus are idol worshipping heathens,}

Rsaxena: ``speaking of idol worship, i`m a little confused how some muslims can mock that while revering that big black box -- kaaba or whatever it is called - in saudi arabia. is that big box not an inanimate object as well?``

Inside that black-box is a rock.

Its not easy to grasp the essence of the arab-rock relation. Its a fascination that goes beyond the mundane. The ultimate tribute has been paid to the humble rock by making it an object of adoration and worship.

The arab and his rock - a relation beyond the temporal!

regards,

semipreciousme #94 Gul is no mere nut case - read his interview on Herald to see how he is now passing off the failed ``ISI foreign policy`` that he and his friends engineered (thereby creating the mess in Afghanistan) to the foreign office in Pakistan. I agree that there are many fine individuals among our generals. The fact that Hamid Gul and others took over matters that they were neither legitimately charged with, nor intellectually capable of grasping, is the reason we are forced to focus on military and law and order issues rather than on economic issues.

THE GENERALS DO NOT WANT TO MAKE PEACE:

The Generals - specifically the crore commanders

do not want to make peace. They sabotage civilian governments` efforts to make peace with India. With peace there would be a smaller army and no need to pass out plots and bungalows to these rascals and nutcases.

``....more like SEVERE exasperation with all people who take war so lightly...and unfortunately, pak and india seem to have more then the normal quota of these trigger-happy idiots...``

This from a person who has managed to convert the Hard Core Hindutvavadis into calling her ``wholly precious`` ;) Bhai, I am impressed.

Regardless of what Binifer once mentioned about your boyfriend`s jealousies, may I please have the pleasure of taking you out to dinner if you ever visit Boston. I promise, I will sing hossanahs to the memory of MA Jinnah if you say yes. :))

re ras sahib 92

The columnist fails to mention a few things in his birthday greetings:

The late ZAB (Allah Bakshe)-

1. The `foe` of reactionary forces, declared Ahmadis as non-Muslims, creating a human rights situation unparalleled in Jinnah`s Pakistan.

2. The `savior` of Pakistan, created the situation of intransigence which led to the breakup of the country.

3. He also set Pakistan on the course of socialist service economy from which she is still recovering.

4. The great `anti-feudal` still has family that hold Larkana in its pocket.

5. The behavior of his police towards political opponents wasn`t exactly upto the standards of Amnesty INternational.

That said, Shaheed Bhutto, was given a raw deal by the dictator who replaced him. He was, after all, Pakistan`s first freely and popularly elected Prime Minister. But he was a man, a human being with greatness and flaws. No more and no less.

tahmad saab

``semipreciousme: how about our own paki generals? Hamid Gul....``

....stop right there...hamid gul, imo, is a bona fide nutcase not fit to roam the streets let alone air his `veiws` to the public...

audio-video #89 psssst your secret is safe with me. The one about you being a fake Pakistani pretending to be a Indian in order to make people think Indians are as brainless as your posts seem to make you appear. In fact you are a genius. ISI will give you a medal, no doubt.

From The Nation (Lahore) January 5, 2002

Bhuttoism

Altaf Ahmad Qureshi

Bhuttoism is the political philosophy of a great man of our history i.e. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, a poet revolutionary, who laid down his life for the betterment and prosperity of the poor and wretched of this land. By refusing to bend before might, by upholding the constitution and legal order he had become a legend, a source of inspiration to the struggling masses. He is the man who has been killed by Army but has lived in history.
Bhuttoism, the political philosophy of Shaheed Bhutto, stands for the National Liberation Revolution and is based on Struggle
i) Against Imperialism within the country and outside;
ii) Against feudalism and capitalism;
iii) To remain Non-aligned in the confrontation of Super powers;
iv) To achieve Economic Liberation and technological development; and
v) To live in peace with all neighbouring countries.
Struggle against imperialism: Since his days at Berkeley University, Shaheed Bhutto had been struggling against doctrine of colonialism and neo-colonialism. He was first true Pakistani who gave a socialist economic programme to the down trodden and talked about people`s rule. He was first great Pakistani who introduced socialism in every house and gave courage to poor masses to fight for rights and real independence. He inspired millions by his thoughts and made people think for themselves and their country. He gave them honour and respect. He was the first Asian who persuaded Arabs to use their oil as tool against imperialist`s designs. He convinced King Faisal to increase oil prices. The Islamic Summit at Lahore was nothing but creation of a big force against imperialism in world politics.
After assuming power on December 20, 1971, Shaheed Bhutto recognised Independent Vietnam and developed relations with her on ambassadorial level. To help Arabs against Zionism and imperialism, Shaheed Bhutto wanted to turn Pakistan into a nuclear power. He was nearing his goal when the imperialists decided to get rid of him. Shaheed Bhutto was thrown out of Government, and two years later was hanged. Shaheed Bhutto, despite all the propaganda against him over past ten years, simply refuses to die or fade away. He will live as the greatest anti-imperialist Pakistani.
Struggle against feudalism and capitalism: To break the might of the feudals, Shaheed Bhutto introduced land reforms twice. First land reforms were introduced in early 1972 and the second reforms were announced in early 1977. He brought the feudals down to earth and raised the status of the landless peasants.
He introduced labour reforms to provide at least basic necessities of life to the poor working classes. He increased the wages of the labourers 5 times during his tenure. He introduced a scheme to provide 5 marlas of land to the labourers and to the landless peasants. He introduced a scheme under which Collective Bargaining Agents (CBA trade unions) could be part of the management.
Non-Alignment: Shaheed Bhutto, in view of the global situation, laid down the theory of bilateralism. He says balance can only be created when all nations enjoy equal status. He wanted to have good relations with neighbours and with the poor nations of the third world. He pursued the Bandung Declaration in his foreign policy.
Economic Liberation and Development: During Shaheed Bhutto`s tenure in power, Pakistan received only 8 billion dollars worth of loans. He tried to pool and develop own resources to remain independent.
Peace inside and around Pakistan: Bhutto signed Simla Agreement with India to have peace on the eastern borders and convinced Late President Daud of Afghanistan to recognise the Durand Line as the international border on the western border. He created a peaceful atmosphere inside the country necessary to boost production.
This could not be tolerated by the imperialist forces and they decided to get rid of the Great man. So they did in connivance with the reactionary forces of Pakistan. We miss him, since he never failed to raise our spirits. Even when things went wrong, when we lost half of our country, when our 90,000 men were POWs, we were not so depressed or lacking in faith as we are today. Shaheed Bhutto has left his footprints on the sands of time, and he now belongs to the ages. In his footsteps, we hear the rolling thunders of history.
Today, January 5, is the 74th birth anniversary of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto

From The Hindustan Times..

The foolishness of war

Khushwant Singh

There are millions of my countrymen who agree with me that we must never ever go to war against Pakistan again — or for that matter, against any nation. Sabre-rattling is not patriotism; it is a foolish person’s show of bravado.

Persons who have not seen the havoc modern-day weaponry can cause to both, those on battlefields and civilians, who have not seen once-flourishing cities in Poland and Germany reduced to rubble and the ruins of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, have little idea of what war is.

I have. The vast majority of those who perished in World War II were not soldiers but civilians — men, women and children. I never want to see that happen in India, Pakistan or any other country.

Are our responses to the attack on our Parliament the best we could do to fight terrorism? I do not think so. Pakistan condemned it as soon as it occurred, as it did after the attack on the Kashmir assembly. Accusing President Musharraf and his government of being behind these attacks is unwarranted. So is recalling our high commissioner from Islamabad.

Al-Qaeda, Lashkar-e-Tayyeba, Jaish-e-Moha-mmed and the Taliban are not creations of Musharraf’s regime. They were created by his predecessors and came to him as unwanted inheritance. They have strong presence in Pakistan’s armed forces and have gained popularity among the common people of Pakistan.

Musharraf has an unenviable task of getting rid of them. He did a right about-turn by disowning the Taliban in Afghanistan under American pressure. Under the same pressure, he is doing his best to disown other Islamic militant organisations. It is not in our interests to add to his troubles but to help him in the task he has been compelled to undertake.

His hold on Pakistan is very tenuous. There are many in Pakistan’s defence services who would like to see him out of power. They will be more extremist and anti-Indian than Musharraf. Would helping subvert Musharraf’s regime at this juncture be in India’s interest? Our government seems to think so. I think it is a grave error.

Stopping train and bus services to Lahore is also a retrograde step. The need of the hour is more people-to-people contact between Indians and Pakistanis, not making it almost impossible. To say that these buses and trains are conduits for terrorists is a canard no one should believe.

PRAY FOR PAKISTAN EVERYDAY

January 04 04:00 PM EST

Cycle of Death - A letter from Pakistan

By Ali Ahmed Rind LA Weekly Writer



The day after Pakistan’s interior minister denounced the Taliban and religious extremism, his brother was shot dead in downtown Karachi. The minister, Moinuddin Haider, speaking at a seminar titled “Terrorism: A New Challenge to the World of Islam,” said the Taliban’s “narrow concept of Islam was both misguided and misguiding. We would never let some hymn-reciting, illiterate religious bigots run this country.”

The following day, his brother, Ehteshanuddin Haider, patron of the Fatmid Foundation, a well-known charity in Pakistan, was killed as he left his office. The message seemed clear in tumultuous Pakistan: Taliban fighters, in retreat from Afghanistan (news - web sites), are bucking to show their presence in my country.

At his elder brother’s funeral, Moinuddin Haider was asked if he saw any connection between his own remarks and his brother’s death. He politely replied, “I am still of the belief that we should not let some illiterate zealots run the country.”

It is clear that Pakistan, a country that came into being in the name of Islam, is passing through the most dangerous times of its half-century existence.

On its eastern border, tension is building with old foe India after a December 13 terrorist attack — by Pakistan-based Kashmiri separatists — on the Indian Parliament, an attack that killed 14 people. On its western border, an unwelcoming Kabul government blames Pakistan for three decades of strife. Internally, Pakistan bears the wrath of Muslim radicals upset that President Pervez Musharraf sided with the U.S.-led coalition and could be making a compromise with India on the Kashmir (news - web sites) issue.

On top of all this, the possibility that Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) has found refuge in Pakistan adds to the quandary. Speculation about bin Laden’s whereabouts, running high for weeks, grew most intense last week when a spokesman for Afghan’s defense ministry, Mohammed Habeel, accused a pro-Taliban religious leader, Maulana Fazlur Rahman, of giving protection to the world’s most wanted man. “Attack is permissible on any country — be it Pakistan or any other — that gives protection to Osama. We support that type of attack,’’ Habeel said.

The Pakistani press contacted Maulana Fazlur Rahman, who has been detained in his hometown of Dera Ismail Khan for the past three months on sedition charges. He dismissed the allegation as a political gimmick. One of his aides said, “Though we do support the Taliban, we never had any connection with Osama bin Laden. This is part of an international scheme to pressure the Musharraf government to come down hard on religious parties, akin to the [actions of the] secular states of Egypt and Algeria, thus throwing Pakistan into the flames of civil war.”

Rahman heads Pakistan’s largest religious party — Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam, the party of Muslim scholars that has been an ally of the Taliban. It has a large presence in Pakistan’s western border areas, and in the initial days of the war on the Taliban, Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam organized one of the largest anti-government, pro-Taliban violent rallies in Pakistan. It was because of these demonstrations that General Musharraf’s fragile government decided to charge Fazlur Rahman with sedition, on grounds that he tried to incite the armed forces to overthrow the general’s pro-West government.

I spoke with one of my military sources about the Afghan defense-

ministry spokesman’s support of an attack on Pakistan if it is harboring bin Laden. “Kabul is playing into the hands of India,” he told me. “In times when we are facing warlike situations on our eastern border, Northern Alliance people want to settle the score with Pakistan. They hope Pakistan will meet a fate akin to that of the Taliban.”

Independent political observers do not rule out that bin Laden may have been aided by a pro-Taliban faction of one of Pakistan’s intelligence agencies. “It is no secret that Pakistan’s ruling clique is divided on the issue of the Taliban and Osama,” said Riaz Chandio, a political activist. “Therefore it is likely that while President Musharraf is helping the U.S. to capture Osama and members of the Taliban leadership, one or another head of numerous intelligence agencies is helping Osama to avoid meeting that fate.”

In late October, Osama apparently got advance warning less than three hours before the missile bombardment of Beni Hissar camp, a hideout near Kabul. It’s anyone’s guess who may have tipped him off, but some believe Pakistani sources saved him.

It is not a new phenomenon for Pakistan that the government of the day follows one policy and the intelligence agencies go the opposite way. “He may be in a safe house under the protection of one intelligence ally, watching soldiers of fortune as they hunt him in the rugged Afghan mountains,” Chandio said.

A political commentator speaks for most Pakistanis when he says that now is the time to close once and for all this chapter of Muslim radicalism and Osama-brand terror. “Though he may be dead under the debris of a cave or running endlessly for his life, he opened a wide chasm between them and us. It will be in the interests of all of us to close this chapter, better sooner than later.”

It is troubling that the game on the global chessboard does not follow rules driven by morality. We may be witnessing more turmoil in coming times. One Osama may be replaced by another, and the terror may continue.

SameerJB #98 I must admit I dont share the assumption behind the statement that ``There is no point interacting at way too low intelligence level.`` The assumption that someone is below one`s own intelligence level is a presumptuous one I think. And if he is bigotted in the religious dimension, I think you may wish to examine a couple of your own posts which reflect ethnic bigotry too.

Nor do I conclude (like Rsaxena and a couple of others) that KhanSahibs views are so off the chart that this must be an act: replace ``hindu`` with ``paki`` and change KhanSahib to Jay (or a couple of other chowk posters I can think of) and suddenly KhanSahib no longer seems so incredible. Of course, Jay has been posting his hate-pakistan garbage for a couple of years now and KhanSahib is new: let us give him the chance to respond before we jump to conclusions.

As for Gen. Busharaff: Welcome to Chowk. You are from what I consider my home town, good old Rawalpindi where I grew up. While appreciating your support, I dont think there is any need for strong words towards KhanSahib. They merely diminish the substance of what you write, and the substance is great.