Borders are Made of These

Drumz #136 I agree that instead of following mullahs and ulema like sheep, we have a responsibility to think for ourselves, and to think as clearly and logically as we can. And this is precisely what the Quran encourages when it stresses relying on our own senses and not looking towards other men for guidance. As the Quran notes, ``Allah will ask you on the Judgement Day ``Where are those men now to whom you looked for instruction?``.

Our problem in Pakistan is that the education system (at least in the government college and Panjab University that I attended) kills any self-confidence that the student has in thinking for himself, and provides very little emphasis on understanding one`s assumptions and drawing logical conclusions. Learning is by rote, opinions are those of other men that they have to also memorize and not their own. In madrassahs, of course, this dysfunctional education system is taken to an extreme and the output is ``extreme sheep`` who will kill innocent people without having the courage to question the evil nature of the act.

My dear Shammi Mian:

What a small world. Ah that Gruduwara road. We used to live by the side of the Musjid. Yes, Zakir Saheb was our neighbor, and a friend of my MamooN -- who was a professor in Tibbia College. They moved to Lahore after ‘47.



In fact I and my cousin -- as 9 and 10 year old boys -- used to frequent Zakir Saheb`s house – we had a crush on his daughter who was 5 – 6 year older than us!

Fatimah that name sounds familiar – was she associated with Karol Bagh Jamia Millia.

Shammi mian we have to get together one day – ah those childhood memories – some unpleasant but so many more of them so pleasant -- they always drowned the unpleasant ones.

Happy New Year my dear friend.

Re: Urstruly

“…One can only wish hell for them and their country…So Hindus! Let me tell you this new years day that I hate you. I wish you death. I wish you eternal misery. I wish you everlasting hate. I wish you bubonic plagues…”

Urstruly, thanks. I wish nothing but the best for a happy and prosperous new year! Kind regards

Farzana,

Excellent piece. I will be addressing some interesting themes you brought up at a later time.

regards

re: ali

{I think Indian minorities should join hands with each other and with Pakistan to hasten the demise of this inhuman Brahmin-Banya Raj in India.}

yeah, happy new year to you too ali

re: anNy

{pardon my curiosity and prying but are you by any chance madly in love?}

noooo...never...`cept with myself

{youre being way too nice to people ure usually terribly nasty to (not that its a bad thing)}

it`s part of an evil trick to beguile them :)

{have a great new year and smile lots :)}

thanks, you too

Dear Farzana,

A thought provoking article.

In order to appreciate how majority Indian (who happen to be hindus)feel, you have to put yourself in their place. India is at war with Pak because of ideological differences. India is a secular, democratic country while Pakistan is an islamic theocracy. You seem to be suffering from the same identity crisis as Pakistan suffers from. After 50 years of existing, Pakistan,thanks to its despotic rulers, is in a hell-hole. It will require an Indian rope trick to extricate itself from this hole.

You seem to be more preoccupied with your muslim identity when most Indians, who are shocked at the recent attack on the parliament.

``Now, Mr. L.K.Advani says it was a fidayeen attack, if they could do this in the USA, then why not us? But, there were air strikes on the Pentagon and Twin Towers – here you had these fellows driving in, coming out of their vehicles and managing to get close to three gates. And they were just five men. Anyone who has visited Parliament, and I have, knows that there is a huge security cordon at all times and more so when Parliament is in session.``

Your quote above from your article seems to suggest that the attack on the parliament was staged. Let me ask you a point blank question: Do you think it was staged?

Millions of Indians, Indian and international media do not think this was staged. There was a genuine outcry. Attack on the Indian parliament was a symbolic attack as well as a well planned but poorly executed one. Terrorists struck at the very root of India`s democracy. We were lucky they did not succeed in their objectives.

``Whatever happened to the good old days when poor innocents were shot down in the crossfire?``

What kind of balloney is this? And i thought you are a responsible journalist. If terrorists are targetting parliament and other institutions, it either means they are either getting bolder or they are desperate, make your pick. They continue to target innocents. If you have been reading newspapers (which as a journalist you should)i presume you would have read massacre of civilians that continue unabated. Were the people who died in the attack on parliament not innocent people.

``And does it strike the PM that among these 100 crore people, some are indeed terrorists themselves? Or is it only the Taliban and the Pakistanis that are creating havoc? For god’s sake, we even have an American who fought alongside the Taliban. What about the JKLF? The Naxalites? The ULFA? All Indians.``

Yes, sure. There are many terrorists among Indians too. Our war with Pak is, as i said, one of ideology. Kashmir is only a symptom. Pakistan, has used terrorism as a soft option. If Kashmir were the only issue, you would not have Pak based terrorist groups targetting outside Kashmir. And you would not have the Kashmiri agenda for self-determination hijacked by non-Kashmiris. For God`s sake, the American Taliban (forgetting his name)has confessed to being trained by Taliban in Afghanistan and taken part in terrorism in Kashmir). So, Pak ruler`s agenda is much wider. If you believe in India (as i do)you will see how diagramatically opposite we both countries are.

ULFA, Naxalite are a fall out of political problems. If they adopt violent means, they need to be tackled the way we are tackling terrorism in Kashmir. There is no other way. Besides, there are reports that i have read about ISI supporting ULFA. During Kargil, such a nexus came to surface.

You seem to have a cynical attitude to Indian democracy. Despite faults, Indian democracy works. Name one country from Saudi Arabia to Indonesia (except Bangladesh and Israel perhaps)that is a democracy. You see my point. India is a great experiment. This expt is worth preserving and improving upon.

The hindu-muslim riots that happened in the past have been politically engineered by Congress most of the time. They have often gotten political mileage. By espousing a pseudo-secular image, they have done a lot of harm to muslims in India. BJP is no better. Muslims need to fight these communal tendencies, by democratic means. As Indians they have a unique opportunity to do this in a peaceful and democratic fashion. Riots in Bombay following blasts were engineered by Shiv Sena. This party is on political decline. They target muslims only because that was politically beneficial (in the beginning, they actually started out targetting South Indians). Not anymore. The same party burnt a hospital in Thane following death of a party heavyweight who was being treated there. Need i say more. Zealots, extremists have no religion. They just make use of religion for their nefarious designs. Both OBL and Bal Thackeray belong to the same category. The difference is: while former has a much wider appeal among the muslim ummah, the latter has few takers outside Maharashtra.

``Besides, it is not even my ideology. I do not believe in fighting a battle on borrowed ideas. My enemies are only those who want to rob me of my identity, wherever they are.``

Again that identity crisis. Let me tell you something. All my life i have been a minority. Born in a brahmin family in south when we were hated (at a time when Dravidian movement peaked in the 60s), we found a place in tolerant Delhi among Punjabees (who were and still are some of the greatest people i have met, God bless them). Still, as South Indian madrasees, we were a minority. Now, in USA, as an NRI, i am a minority. All along i had to prove myself. There are many other Indians with similar stories.

Farzana, YOu have to come out of this minority complex and view yourself as an Indian. If Shiv Sena has been unkind to muslims in Bombay, DMK has been unkind to brahmins in Tamil Nadu. Similar stories abound everywhere. That is why we have to forget what our religion or caste is and view ourselves as Indians. Once you do that, you are no more a minority. This feeling of minority is in thought only.

In the end, this is a fight against the evil of terrorism. BJP, like any other party would take political mileage out of it. POTO may get passed. BJP may reap rich harvests in UP and Punjab. Still, democracy will flourish if this evil of terrorism is eliminated once for all.

In the end, i hope Musharraf sees wisdom and joins this fight against terrorism. Our fight against terrorists need not involve Pakistan if they do not support these terrorists from their soil.

Sridhar

Shammiji;

WOW. What a small world this is. Subhan-Allah.

Anny;

LOL

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``Peace`` vigil in San Jose:

I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:

1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan. Rest of the people present there were pretending as if they were representing American Indian voices too. They could not even bring any of their Indian friends (if they have any). Carrying the Indian flag they wanted to pretend to passing by people that they were mixture of Indians and Pakis.. This thing was really deceptive.

2. There was not a single mention of terrorism in the placards. As if to say that there is a war to start in South Asia out of blue, may be just because Indians and Pakis hate each other. Basically agenda rather than ``peace`` was ``save pakistan``.

3. I had a poster criticizing ``military dictatorships`` and saying ``Indians and Pakis are one``, I was accused of being ``divisive``, ``anti-peace`` and ``with hidden agenda``. So I guess another agenda was ``save mr. musharraf`` and keep floating the theory that muslim-hindu are separate people.

4. One of the organizer tried to read some crappy article from WPost basically whose import was ``hey Indians are basically Hindus and India-Pak difference is between hindus and muslims..``. When will Pakis start looking at the census figures. Sorry to break the news guys. For decades in India more muslims live than in Pakistan and even so more peacefully than any where, with more democratic rights than anywhere. So please stop giving BS that India-Pak dispute is abt Hindu-Muslim.

5. It seems organizers had special affinity to ``two nation theory``. The basic point was even if a nation is attacked and engaged in proxy wars for years, it should still maintain ``peace``. I Wonder organizers ever called for peace when innocent people get butchered by terrorists. Only when there is talk of retaliation from India, it seems they hear their scared relatives in Pakistan and then come out to talk about ``peace``.

6. Also common goal of meeting organizer was to beg Mr Bush to do some thing about South Asia. This shows how much ``peace`` they can achieve from this Bush the ``messiah of peace``.

Ok guys lick the * *lls of Bush or whoever powerful you can find around the world to save your terrorist regime or jehadi brothers.

But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it. I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected, but we do need to respond to this fascist evil scourge of Jehadism and free our Paki brothers from it too. So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.

Well founder of ``Chowk.com`` was also there. I complemented him on having a great website. Hope he does not completely share the views of rest of the organizers.

#: 35

mumbhai

Immediately after the americans started bombing afghanistan, we saw imam of jama masjib in delhi and other muslim organizations carry out a morcha in support of Bin Laden.

We never see any morcha from any Muslim party against the ISI backed attacks on the Indian parliament.

I wonder why ?

........................

Mumbai

If you or your P.M. is MAN enough let him post the evidence of involvement of whoever they say did it first.

World is now NOT gullible & naive to take all the SH!T from any govt.

FROM:

www.jews-for-allah/muslims-against-terrorism.

Lest we forget.For auld lang syne!

__________________________________________________

Secularism Spread by the Sword

Christianity and Islam have been criticized in the past as religions spread by the sword.

Even though Jesus and Allah taught Peace and Tolerance, some misguided individuals have used religion as an excuse to commit violence upon others.

The Christian crusades and the Muslim jihads committed in the name of God have left a tarnish on both religions.

Today, we are in the midst of the deadliest religion of them all, Secularism. This religion is slashing it`s swords, shooting it`s bullets, and dropping it`s bombs world wide to convert nations near and far into adherence.

This religion opposes all religions of the past, insisting on separating Synagogue, Church, and Mosque alike from their respective States. This religion`s God is not called Yahweh, Jesus, or Allah, his name is ``dollar``.

Secularism hides behind other religions, disguising itself as Zionism, Democracy and Arab nationalism, yet eliminating the very core Faith and way of life that beautifies the Abrahamic religions.

Founded in 1858 by Charles Bradlaugh, a Sunday preacher turned atheist, it`s fundamental beliefs are (The improvement of this life by material means [Capitalism]), and (Whether there be other good or not, the good of the present life is good, and it is good to seek that good`` [English Secularism, 35]).

The often overlooked consequences of secularism is venereal diseases, legalized prostitution [Los Vegas, Navada], teenage pregnancies out of wed lock, suicide, alcoholism, and teenage rebellion [Columbine High School killings], all at their highest rates in the world`s most secularist country.

Today`s most infamous Secularist missionary is America, threatening and imposing death on nations world wide to either secularize or face their sword (sanctions, bombing campaigns, military coups).

Ever since the United States Army massacred 300 Lakotas in 1890, American

forces have spread Secularism by force elsewhere around the globe 100 times. Indeed the United States has sent troops abroad or militarily struck other countries` territory 216 times.

Since World War II, the United States actually dropped bombs on 23 countries. These include: China 1945-46, Korea 1950-53, China 1950-53, Guatemala 1954, Indonesia 1958, Cuba 1959-60, Guatemala 1960, Congo 1964, Peru 1965, Laos 1964-73, Vietnam 1961-73, Cambodia 1969-70, Guatemala 1967-69, Grenada 1983, Lebanon 1984, Libya 1986, El Salvador 1980s, Nicaragua 1980s, Panama 1989, Iraq 1991-1999, Sudan 1998, Afghanistan 1998, and Yugoslavia 1999.

Post World War II, the United States has also assisted in over 20 different coups throughout the world, and the CIA was responsible for half a dozen assassinations of non-Secularist political heads of state.

The following is a comprehensive summary of the Secularization strategy of the United States over the span of the past century:

Argentina - 1890 - Troops sent to Buenos Aires to protect Secular interests.

Chile - 1891 - Marines sent to Chile and clashed with nationalist rebels.

Haiti - 1891 - American troops suppress a revolt by Black workers on United States-claimed Navassa Island.

Hawaii - 1893 - Navy sent to Hawaii to overthrow the independent kingdom - Hawaii annexed by the United States.

Nicaragua - 1894 - Troops occupied Bluefields, a city on the Caribbean Sea, for a month.

China - 1894-95 - Navy, Army, and Marines landed during the Sino-Japanese War.

Korea - 1894-96 - Troops kept in Seoul during the war.

Panama - 1895 - Army, Navy, and Marines landed in the port city of Corinto.

China - 1894-1900 - Troops occupied China during the Boxer Rebellion.

Philippines - 1898-1910 - Navy and Army troops landed after the Philippines fell during the Spanish-American War; 600,000 Filipinos were killed.

Cuba - 1898-1902 - Troops seized Cuba in the Spanish-American War; the United States still

maintains troops at Guantanamo Bay today.

Puerto Rico - 1898 - present - Troops seized Puerto Rico in the Spanish-American War and still occupy Puerto Rico today.

Nicaragua - 1898 - Marines landed at the port of San Juan del Sur.

Samoa - 1899 - Troops landed as a result over the battle for succession to the throne.

Panama - 1901-14 - Navy supported the revolution when Panama claimed independence from Colombia. American troops have occupied the Canal Zone since 1901 when construction for the canal began.

Honduras - 1903 - Marines landed to intervene during a revolution.

Dominican Rep 1903-04 - Troops landed to protect American interests during a revolution.

Korea - 1904-05 - Marines landed during the Russo-Japanese War.

Cuba - 1906-09 - Troops landed during an election.

Nicaragua - 1907 - Troops landed and a protectorate was set up.

Honduras - 1907 - Marines landed during Honduras` war with Nicaragua.

Panama - 1908 - Marines sent in during Panama`s election.

Nicaragua - 1910 - Marines landed for a second time in Bluefields and Corinto.

Honduras - 1911 - Troops sent in to protect American interests during Honduras` civil war.

China - 1911-41 - Navy and troops sent to China during continuous flare-ups.

Cuba - 1912 - Troops sent in to protect American interests in Havana.

Panama - 1912 - Marines landed during Panama`s election.

Honduras - 1912 - Troops sent in to protect American interests.

Nicaragua - 1912-33 - Troops occupied Nicaragua and fought guerrillas during its 20-year civil war.

Mexico - 1913 - Navy evacuated Americans during revolution.

Dominican Rep 1914 - Navy fought with rebels over Santo Domingo.

Mexico - 1914-18 - Navy and troops sent in to intervene against nationalists.

Haiti - 1914-34 - Troops occupied Haiti after a revolution and occupied Haiti for 19 years.

Dominican Rep 1916-24 - Marines occupied the Dominican Republic for eight years.

Cuba - 1917-33 - Troops landed and occupied Cuba for 16 years; Cuba became an economic protectorate.

World War I - 1917-18 - Navy and Army sent to Europe to fight the Axis powers.

Russia - 1918-22 - Navy and troops sent to eastern Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution; Army made five landings.

Honduras - 1919 - Marines sent during Honduras` national elections.

Guatemala - 1920 - Troops occupied Guatemala for two weeks during a union strike.

Turkey - 1922 - Troops fought nationalists in Smyrna.

China - 1922-27 - Navy and Army troops deployed during a nationalist revolt.

Honduras - 1924-25 - Troops landed twice during a national election.

Panama - 1925 - Troops sent in to put down a general strike.

China - 1927-34 - Marines sent in and stationed for seven years throughout China.

El Salvador - 1932 - Naval warships deployed during the FMLN revolt under Marti.

World War II - 1941-45 - Military fought the Axis powers: Japan, Germany, and Italy.

Yugoslavia - 1946 - Navy deployed off the coast of Yugoslavia in response to the downing of an American plane.

Uruguay - 1947 - Bombers deployed as a show of military force.

Greece - 1947-49 - United States operations insured a victory for the far right in national ``elections.``

Germany - 1948 - Military deployed in response to the Berlin blockade; the Berlin airlift lasts 444 days.

Philippines - 1948-54 - The CIA directed a civil war against the Filipino Huk revolt.

Puerto Rico - 1950 - Military helped crush an independence rebellion in Ponce.

Korean War - 1951-53 - Military sent in during the war.

Iran - 1953 - The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah to power.

Vietnam - 1954 - The United States offered weapons to the French in the battle against Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh.

Guatemala - 1954 - The CIA overthrew the democratically elected Arbenz and placed Colonel Armas in power.

Egypt - 1956 - Marines deployed to evacuate foreigners after Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal.

Lebanon - 1958 - Navy supported an Army occupation of Lebanon during its civil war.

Panama - 1958 - Troops landed after Panamanians demonstrations threatened the Canal Zone.

Vietnam - 1950s-75 - Vietnam War.

Cuba - 1961 - The CIA-directed Bay of Pigs invasions failed to overthrow the Castro government.

Cuba - 1962 - The Navy quarantines Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Laos - 1962 - Military occupied Laos during its civil war against the Pathet Lao guerrillas.

Panama - 1964 - Troops sent in and Panamanians shot while protesting the United States presence in the Canal Zone.

Indonesia - 1965 - The CIA orchestrated a military coup.

Dominican Rep- 1965-66 - Troops deployed during a national election.

Guatemala - 1966-67 - Green Berets sent in.

Cambodia - 1969-75 - Military sent in after the Vietnam War expanded into Cambodia.

Oman - 1970 - Marines landed to direct a possible invasion into Iran.

Laos - 1971-75 - Americans carpet-bomb the countryside during Laos` civil war.

Chile - 1973 - The CIA orchestrated a coup, killing President Allende who had been popularly elected. The CIA helped to establish a military regime under General Pinochet.

Cambodia - 1975 - Twenty-eight Americans killed in an effort to retrieve the crew of the Mayaquez, which had been seized.

Angola - 1976-92 - The CIA backed South African rebels fighting against Marxist Angola.

Libya - 1981 - American fighters shoot down two Libyan fighters.

El Salvador - 1981-92 - The CIA, troops, and advisers aid in El Salvador`s war against the FMLN.

Nicaragua - 1981-90 - The CIA and NSC directed the Contra War against the Sandinistas.

Lebanon - 1982-84 - Marines occupied Beirut during Lebanon`s civil war; 241 were killed in the American barracks and Reagan ``redeployed`` the troops to the Mediterranean.

Honduras - 1983-89 - Troops sent in to build bases near the Honduran border.

Grenada - 1983-84 - American invasion overthrew the Maurice Bishop government.

Iran - 1984 - American fighters shot down two Iranian planes over the Persian Gulf.

Libya - 1986 - American fighters hit targets in and around the capital city of Tripoli.

Bolivia - 1986 - The Army assisted government troops on raids of cocaine areas.

Iran - 1987-88 - The United States intervened on the side of Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War.

Libya - 1989 - Navy shot down two more Libyan jets.

Virgin Islands - 1989 - Troops landed during unrest among Virgin Island peoples.

Philippines - 1989 - Air Force provided air cover for government during coup.

Panama - 1989-90 - 27,000 Americans landed in overthrow of President Noriega; over 2,000 Panama civilians were killed.

Liberia - 1990 - Troops entered Liberia to evacuate foreigners during civil war.

Saudi Arabia - 1990-91 - American troops sent to Saudi Arabia, which was a staging area in the war against Iraq.

Kuwait - 1991 - Troops sent into Kuwait to turn back Saddam Hussein.

Somalia - 1992-94 - Troops occupied Somalia during civil war.

Bosnia - 1993-95 - Air Force jets bombed ``no-fly zone`` during civil war in Yugoslavia.

Haiti - 1994-96 - American troops and Navy provided a blockade against Haiti`s military government. The CIA restored Aristide to power.

Zaire - 1996-97 - Marines sent into Rwanda Hutus` refugee camps in the area where the Congo revolution began.

Albania - 1997 - Troops deployed during evacuation of foreigners.

Sudan - 1998 - American missiles destroyed a pharmaceutical complex where alleged nerve gas components were manufactured.

Afghanistan - 1998 - Missiles launched towards alleged Afghan terrorist training camps.

Yugoslavia - 1999 - Bombings and missile attacks carried out by the United States in conjunction with NATO in the 11 week war against Milosevic.

Iraq - 1998-2001 - Missiles launched into Baghdad and other large Iraq cities for four days. American jets enforced ``no-fly zone`` and continued to hit Iraqi targets since December 1998.

In conclusion, the Secularist`s intolerance towards other belief systems and cultures have terrorized the entire world and left carnage and corruption from it`s efforts to convert the world.

Peace

Correction

``I would say that it was an extremely good right up``

is

``I would say that it was an extremely good write up``

Its all Bill Gates` fault

Dear Farzana

I would say that it was an extremely good right up-fair and clear- made me once again envious of the fact that why such a fair liberal mind is not on our side. The feeling remained until at the end when I read the following:

[Yes, I have always taken extreme positions, but today I have only one small prayer to offer that unseen god of small things: Please keep me on the fence. From here I shall make my own borders – that hazy line where the sky meets the sea.]

There is a limit, and when that limit is reached, it is a crime sitting on the fence-and that limit is when your own government fires first bullet on its own people; the limit is reached when state machinery is used to exterminate people and the majority not only watches it from the fence but also applauds it. This is the limit of human decency. Time to jump the fence.

ANOTHER YEAR OF SHAME

We should be ashamed to even wish anyone happy new year when there are 10s of millions of people whose new years resolution is just to stay alive in the face of shameless persecution, blatant disregard for citizenship rights, and complete disrespect for their right to live. I am talking about the millions of helpless Kashmiris who are living a life of torture and fear for the past 55 years under the shameless Indian Occupation. For the past 12 years since the Disturbed Area Act of 1990 was enacted in Indian Oppressed Kashmir the life and the honor of of a Kashmiri man and woman is worth no more the cost of a bullet of an assault rifle of the occupational Hindu Army. The year 2001 and all the years before that for the past 55 years are the years of shame for the 850 million badmash Hindus who have trouble showing respect for human life. One can only wish hell for them and their country where people are without shame, full of hate, and are warmongers. How can we offer them best of wishes when they are hell bent on annihilating our very existence. Baygairat Hinduo, Hindu kay chamcho, aur karcho, kafgiro listen and listen good- peace only comes with justice; peace comes with giving people their citizenship rights and not by taking them away, peace comes when state machinery protects people and not used to exterminate them, peace comes when people are given the right to speak and not by breaking their bones in your military torture cells, peace comes when a soldier dies for the honor of a woman and not when whole platoon rapes them, peace comes when you accept your neighbors’ right to live and not threaten to invade them, peace comes with honesty and self respect and not by throwing dirt on other people’s religion and their ideals. So Hindus! Let me tell you this new years day that I hate you. I wish you death. I wish you eternal misery. I wish you everlasting hate. I wish you bubonic plagues. And I wish you the same pain and misery upon your women and children that you inflict on Kashmiris without thinking that they are humans first. -the kashmiris towards whose misery the world is blind..

I would request all peace loving human beings including those Hindus who know in their heart that what they are doing is not worthy of a decent human being but do not find enough courage to call a spade a spade, to dedicate this year to the plight of helpless Kashmiris. Let us pray that this year, the year 2002 brings them freedom, independence, dignity and life. Let us join hands to return them their right to live, prosper and be safe.