Borders are Made of These

Happy New Year my dear Chowkis -- and happy new year, Chowk Staff.

Let`s make the -- 2002 -- a LANDMARK YEAR -- for PEACE -- and friendship between India & Pakistan -- NO TERRORISM -- NO WAR -- PEACE -- PEACE -- PEACE.

Blessed are the PEACE MAKERS.

Asma Jahangir Zindabad -- Arunadhati rOY Zindabad.

Happy New Year folks.

Nasah:

``...MY father ``left`` his house on Guruduwara Road, Karol Bagh, in September 1947...``

No Kidding! I am from Karol Bagh, and know Gurudwara Road quite well. I have a fascinating story to tell you. Actually two:

a) Zakir Hussain, who later became President of India, used to live on Gurudwara Road. One of my family friends who moved from Pakistan to India in `47 as a refugee ended up as a tenant in Zakir Hussain`s house. A few years ago, he returned to see the house he lived many years in, only to find that it was in the process of being demolished. Only one wall still stood erect.

b) A few years ago, at a mall in suburban USA, I saw an old Indian lady sitting by herself. Curious, I struck a conversation with her. Her name was Fatimah -- she was from Karachi, Pakistan, but had lived on Gurudwara Road till `47. I took her number down. A few months later, when my father came visiting, I mentioned Fatimah from Gurudwara Rd. to him. To my amazement, he recognized the name, and ACTUALLY KNEW FATIMAH! Happily, I put them in touch with each other!! My father was able to hook up with her brother (in Houston) as well. It was 1998 --- they hadn`t spoken for 51 years!

Reply # 21 nasah

[Now I will tell you something -- MY father ``left`` his house on Guruduwara Road, Karol Bagh, in September 1947 with his children and -- ``the clothes on HIS back`` -- to become a Jama Masjid refugee -- in his OWN country!

And he WAS a Freedom Fighter -- the REAL BIG ONE -- the radical kind -- literally FOUGHT for it -- definitely not an ARMCHAIR Congress kind.]

Nasah, your story is touching. You were lucky to escape the belly of the beast and take refuge in the US of A. My family was lucky too when they were able to find refuge in Pakistan, but millions of other hapless/defenceless Dalits, Muslims and Christians are still stuck in the evil Brahmin empire.

I recently read an article in The Hindu which said that the Dalits` in PM Bagpipe`s home town are still forced to clean human excreta with their bare hands and carry it on their bare heads. I think Indian minorities should join hands with each other and with Pakistan to hasten the demise of this inhuman Brahmin-Banya Raj in India.

RSaxena:

pardon my curiosity and prying but are you by any chance madly in love? youre being way too nice to people ure usually terribly nasty to (not that its a bad thing) have a great new year and smile lots :)

Tahmed sahab:

u just made my day. i hope u have a mind blowing new year celebration and a lovely year to follow :0)

``From here I shall make my own borders – that hazy line where the sky meets the sea.``

One of your most eloquent and beautiful lines ever Farzana dear! You have posed some very valid questions. Questions that have always been on the thinking persons` mind, and questions that nowadays are in the air. I hope these dirty egotistical politicials (on both sides of the border) don`t end up slaughtering innocents for their own bloody purposes. I`d love to throw them all in the Arabian Sea, and bring eternal peace to the region. Dare to dream, haanh?

Happy New Year.

Regards,

Kiran

For the singing pleasure at New Year`s eve of Chowkies, I present to you the song Auld Lang Syne (Scottish for ``Good Old Times``) by Robert Burns (1788). So for all those I insulted, ridiculed, proved morons (all quite rightly of course) and to all those who make chowk a great place (like anNy and Prem, to name two of my many favorite posters), here is that song to change years with:

Should auld acquaintance be forgot,

And never brought to mind?

Should auld acquaintance be forgot,

And auld lang syne!

And surely ye`ll be your pint stowp!

And surely I`ll be mine!

And we`ll tak a cup o`kindness yet,

For auld lang syne.

Chorus.-For auld lang syne, my jo,

For auld lang syne.

We`ll tak a cup o` kindness yet,

For auld lang syne.

We twa hae run about the braes,

And pou`d the gowans fine;

But we`ve wander`d mony a weary fit,

Sin` auld lang syne.

Chorus.-For auld lang syne, my jo,

For auld lang syne.

We`ll tak a cup o` kindness yet,

For auld lang syne.

We twa hae paidl`d in the burn,

Frae morning sun till dine;

But seas between us braid hae roar`d

Sin` auld lang syne.

Chorus.-For auld lang syne, my jo,

For auld lang syne.

We`ll tak a cup o` kindness yet,

For auld lang syne.

And there`s a hand, my trusty fere!

And gie`s a hand o` thine!

And we`ll tak a right gude-willie waught,

For auld lang syne.

Chorus.-For auld lang syne, my jo,

For auld lang syne.

We`ll tak a cup o` kindness yet,

For auld lang syne.

Farzana #22 ``I hope your love for me only grows with time ;)``

If one seeks to be loved, one must give love. If one gets loved in return, fine. If not, that too is fine. Since giving love is as much pleasure as receiving love. So: give love to pakis, to indians, to muslims, to hindus and sikhs too.

Dear Chowkies (pakis and indians and Sigalph az Bangal too): Best wishes for the new year to you and your families. Let us hope that 2002 proves to be an year of peace all around the world.

``From here I shall make my own borders – that hazy line where the sky meets the sea.``

One of your most eloquent and beautiful lines ever Farzana dear! You have posed some very valid questions. Questions that have always been on the thinking persons` mind, and questions that nowadays are in the air. I hope these dirty egotistical politicials (on both sides of the border) don`t end up slaughtering innocents for their own bloody purposes. I`d love to throw them all in the Arabian Sea, and bring eternal peace to the region. Dare to dream, haanh?

Happy New Year.

Regards,

Kiran

=== Interact Filtered ===
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Farzana:

Assassinations are not a good policy. Why should an Indian politician negotiate with someone who is trying to kill him ? After 1976 USA has banned assassinations of heads of states. With satellite and laser guided bombs Uncle Sam can get rid of foreign leaders easily. They don`t do it because people won`t deal with you in the way they want.

The basic problem with you is that you want to draw moral equivalency between two entities where none exists. Tell me the mindset of an elite that creates and supports the Taleban. Of course they dumped it when Uncle Sam delivered the ultimatum.

Re: Farzana

``Where was this Parliament all these years when the challenge was greater? And does it strike the PM that among these 100 crore people, some are indeed terrorists themselves? ``

Farzana -- the Parliament is no ordinary building. I am surprised that you missed the significance.

Hasan #19,

I think you said it better than I could.

What Farzana is doing is clubbing any action by the BJP led govt with their ideology on Babri Masjid. It`s completely wrong.

BJP is no angel, but that doesn`t mean every act of theirs is against Indian Muslims.

Re: Farzana

{Now let’s talk business. And a hippy New Year to chowkwaalas and chokewaalas alike…I hope your love for me only grows with time ;)}

...now i`m sure you didn`t include me in that message, but heck, happy new year to you too, farzana aunty...

Farzana, when you say you want to sit on the fence and not take sides what exactly do you mean?

Do you mean in the context of hating somebody just because he/she happens to be a Pakistani/Indian or Hindu/Muslim?

Or do you mean in the context of hating somebody just because he has no respect for no respect for pluralism, the ideals of a democracy, peaceful co-existence and is determined to engage in terrorist acts to undermine your way of life?

I would really like to know when Vajpayee has asked you to hate Pakistanis just because they happen to be Pakistanis?

Please clarify.

Ref nasah #: 21

[You are telling Farzana:

``My friend`s mother left Karachi in Aug 1947 with her children and the clothes on her back.``

Sooooo -- what ELSE is new, my friend?

Now -- will you puleeeeze -- quit whining about your ``friend`s mother``?]

You DIDN`T get the point, did you?

Despite what she had to endure, that lady never said a word to anyone, including her own children and grandchildren. She didn`t teach them to hate. That is why when a grandson decided to marry for love, he didn`t suddenly stop and say, `This isn`t right` when the girl he was attracted to was a Muslim.

Life is full of injustices, great and small. Just like what happened to your father. But neither he nor you are putting on the act that Farzana puts on usually.

There can never be justice for those who are wronged. Way too many people have been wronged and the perpetrators are difficult to identify. But perhaps we can read history, introspect a little and promise to ourselves that we will never do something that terrible. And remember, evry injustice, however small, is terrible.

Do you remember the bumper sticker; ``Commit random acts of senseless kindness``? That is perhaps more likely to change human behavior than all the religions of the world.

Happy new year.

Joeseph Arokiaraj Reply # 15:

Mate, U should visit Pakistan :) really You have some misconceptions about life in Pakistan, thanks to Indian media I must say.

There is no obligation in Pakistan, everyone practices his/her own religion with freedom, I infact have quite a few good christian friends and I never saw any prejudice against them as u seem to understand. They are given admission into colleges and Universities on the basis of Merit, not on the basis of which religion they belong to like in the other side of the border.

There is noone trying to demolish Mandars or Churches of minorities in Pakistan. As u can easily see it happening in India. So open ur eyes and try not to believe in the biased news of Indian media.

thanx

Asim

Hello Farzana . . . define ``borders`` if you don`t mind, because the hazy line where sky meets sea is called horizon, and I think I know about horizon, artificial horizon, line of sight horizon, height of eye corrections, day horizon, night horizon, stimulated horizon, etcetc.

Point, fine lady, is this: how will you make your own border/s if you can`t define them?

Ergo, you change, your borders change.

Life.

Whatever

Heck! Dear Chowk editors...this piece was sent a day after the incident. I sat up late, fought with someone on messenger, counted till ten about a hundred times to keep my anger leashed...I sent this with a red beacon light...well, I suppose these issues are always topical, except that some things have changed and I am going to get into trouble. So, what`s new?? And I do believe Chowk ke ghar mein…let me paraphrase…neend lambee hai magar jaag bhi jaate hai log :)

And anyway, my message still remains the same...er...whatever… Life has moved on, as we all know. I am deeply interested in the outcome of the televised Indo-Pak relationship, which I see as a microcosm of the larger one, because the media not only reflects society and influences it, but also distorts reality. I happen to know the reality rather well.

Now let’s talk business. And a hippy New Year to chowkwaalas and chokewaalas alike…I hope your love for me only grows with time ;)

Farzana

My dear Harimau:

You are telling Farzana:

``My friend`s mother left Karachi in Aug 1947 with her children and the clothes on her back.``

Now I will tell you something -- MY father ``left`` his house on Guruduwara Road, Karol Bagh, in September 1947 with his children and -- ``the clothes on HIS back`` -- to become a Jama Masjid refugee -- in his OWN country!

And he WAS a Freedom Fighter -- the REAL BIG ONE -- the radical kind -- literally FOUGHT for it -- definitely not an ARMCHAIR Congress kind.

Sooooo -- what ELSE is new, my friend?

Now -- will you puleeeeze -- quit whining about your ``friend`s mother``?

happy new year

hasan

My dear Farzana Versey:

Congratulations on a well written article.

Very eloquent very touching.

However if you’ll forgive me for saying this -- your perspective is getting a little narrower with sweeping generalizations based upon anecdotal events.

You don’t want to be treated as a victim – yet you make a fetish of your perceived victimization.

You want to be treated as an independent individual not disturbed by anybody or any event –yet you cannot separate yourself from the collective psyche of the “persecuted” Indian Muslims. At times it appears you are on both sides of an issue.

1. You consider an attack on a Parliament --no big deal -- because -- Indian Parliament is a noisy quarrelsome abode of corrupt crummy politicians anyway – deserved to be blasted by Jihadis -- because ``majority`` of Indian themselves said – Mantralay should have been bombed instead of the Bombay stock exchange.

2. You imply there shouldn’t have been any a big fuss by Indians – because only 5 men invaded the Parliament and only seven people died -- statistically insignificant indeed -- for a population of one billion miserable poor quality people.

3. Hindu Muslim marriages are occurring all the time – do you like them – or you don’t like them – it was difficult to ascertain where you stand – some accept it – some don’t -- some insist on conversion – some don’t – my younger sister’s daughter married a Hindu computer whiz kid – nobody asked, nobody converted – no big deal -- my three stupid brothers did not attend –I did, gave the couple my heartfelt blessing -- -- no big deal -- they are living happily ever after -- eventually everybody accepted everybody – anecdotal – and difficult to generalize.



4. If you don’t want to “fight terrorism” – don’t -- Idon`t know how a civilian is expectd to :fight terrorism`` -- anyway India is a free country like US -- of free individuals with freedom to choose -- PMs and Presidents of countries -- that are under attacks by Jihadi terrorists -- are supposed -- to call upon the people -- to fight terrorism and be vigilant – they are elected and “paid” by public to do that –no big deal -– they are not drafting you in the army to fight the Jihadis -- nor are they asking you to become a counterterrorist – so why carry a guilty conscience.

5. Your hypersensitivity to your perceived status as the “loyal dog” may be based upon facts – but be careful – it may also be a state of mind.

6. Finally you say that -- “I have only one small prayer to offer that unseen god of small things: Please keep me on the fence “ – I think that unseen god of small people -- called the Indian Muslims -- has already heard your prayers –that’s why those leaderless, poor folks are in such a mess -- as a Muslim elite and an intellectual what else can you do – except be comfortable -- sitting on the fence – you owe “nothing to nobody” – but then why complain about -- how those “loyal dogs” are treated by their presumed “kennel owners”.

7. You are a great writer, Farzana -- with lots of imaginations -- with a powerful pen to go with them -– I am really glad that you did not choose to become a journalist.

Happy New Year

best regards

I havent watched this particular tv serial but hindu-muslim marriages are not exactly unknown in India, particularly as education and urban values diminish differences based on community and religion.

In the one case of a close friend, neither are particularly religious in any orthodox sense but do partake of cultural activities. This is the sort of evolution in Indian culture thats always been happening.

I dunno if Farzana is married but if she isnt maybe she could experiment with having a ``hindu`` boyfriend for a while and write on the experience as a Chowk assignment. bonus points if the bf`s family is rabidly anti-muslim, anti-pakistan.

The other interesting phenomena I have observed is that in (some) upwardly mobile muslim families one could sense that their identities are a blend of their ethnicity, region, and religion as well as a liberal dose of pan-indianism.

I think there is a case to be made for a dynamic Indian cultural tradition that draws from religious, regional, and cultural traditions (and now increasingly western sources). Too often we are quick to see the negatives (of which there are many) in our cultures; how about appreciating the positives and being grateful for them?

Farzana,

As usual, a brilliant article. Haven`t been on chowk for too long, but I am really beginning to admire your work. Very thought provoking and often enjoyable.

Thanks and looking forward to reading more of your articles

harimau # 5

I can understand and respect your sentiments towards the situations of people like your friend`s mother. I also agree with you that many such inter-religion marriages happen in reality everyday. But, I have to differ with you at one point. In your reply, you said:

`` So take your ``Poor lttle me, I am being discriminated against because I am a Muslim and Muslims are depicted unfairly on TV serials`` crap somewhere else. I know the reality whereas you watch TV and take that to be the reality.``

It is true that Muslims were not the only ones discriminated against, but my question to you is:

Does one mistake become better than the other? In any case of discrimination, a certain group of people suffer. Does a certain religion make it ok for a peculiar group to suffer, and not even have a right to complaint about it (because someone else suffered more). This whole matter isn`t about who suffered more... Honestly, what the world needs today is to forget about who was worse off, and rather try to make sure that no one has to face such things again. So, I personally feel that regardless of what Hindus have suffered, you have no right to tell any muslim the type of statements you made above. We`d really be better off by accepting that such misrepresentation is happening (although, i don`t say that it is just of muslims), and try to find ways to improve it, instead of trying to quiet someone by telling them about someone who was worse off.

Anyways,

A Very Happy New Year to Everyone.

Regards

Priya

http://www.paknews.org/kashmir.php?id=1&date1=2001-12-30



Are Kashmiris Fundamentalist Secessionist Terrorists?

Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai

Updated on 2001-12-30 11:09:28



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The global campaign against terrorism should not degenerate into a campaign for the defense of tyrannies and illegal military occupations. There are many forces in the world which are salivating at the prospect of American power being used to prop up the brutal regimes they have foisted on peoples against popular will. India, which has accomplished over 55,000 deaths and untold number of acts of arson and rape, is certainly one among these. The world knows that the struggle of the people of Kashmir for the restoration of their right clearly recognized by the United Nations was and is in essence a non-violent struggle.

Any incursion into this struggle by unsavory elements does not change its character and aim. India’s sabre-rattling at this delicate moment is also indicative of its design to reap as much advantage as it can towards diverting international attention from the realities of the Kashmir dispute and the principles of a healthy and viable international order, which are involved in it.

We, at Kashmiri American Council (KAC), have expressed horror and revulsion of the dastardly terrorists attacks of September 11, 2001, on the American people and civilization generally. We expressed painful condolences to the families of victims of America`s blackest day with special anguish and empathy. This day marks a villainy in the history of mankind that is reminiscent of Kristallnacht during the Third Reich, and the culprits should know that the world will not sleep until they are apprehended and subject to condign punishment. We must call on every nation in the world to assist actively in identifying, apprehending, and punishing the culprits, including those who aided, abetted, or sheltered the guilty.

These terrorists transcend all cultural affiliations and moral boundaries. They know no religion. They are all guilty of a crime against humanity that compelled the most unforgiving of punishments. Such villains should be treated like a contagious disease that must be destroyed to prevent further wickedness. We hope that it be made an international crime against humanity to provide succor in any way to any individual, group, organization, or state that promotes terrorism.

India is trying to engage the sympathy of the United States for its stand on Kashmir by making the plea that the movement in Kashmir is a terrorist movement; Kashmir is an integral part of India; Kashmiris are secessionist; and the movement is launched by so called fundamentalist groups. How well grounded these pleas are can be judged from the following well-established facts and considerations:

During the latest phase of the freedom struggle, virtually all the citizenry of Srinagar (capital city of Kashmir) - men, women and children - came out multiple times on the streets to lodge a non-violent protest against the continuance of Indian occupation.

New York based Weekly India Abroad wrote in one of its dispatches that “According to one U.N. Observer, more than two million Kashmiris demonstrated during this period and the number of memorandums, submitted exceeded 400.`` Certainly, terrorists cannot compose the entire populations of the major towns of Indian-Occupied Kashmir. And two million people cannot be instigated and provoked by a remote control.

Two million people reflect the true nature of the peaceful Kashmiri resistance movement and not a movement of terrorism. Moreover, a terrorist does not believe in marching to the office of the UN, presenting petitions and reminding the UN to fulfill her pledge toward Kashmir. If all the people of the Vale of Kashmir are Pakistani agents, then that by itself removes the ground from India`s claim to the territory. .”

Is Kashmir an integral part of India and are Kashmiris secessionists? Kashmir is not and cannot be regarded as an integral part of India because under all international agreements, which were agreed by both India and Pakistan, negotiated by the United Nations, endorsed by the Security Council and accepted by the international community, Kashmir does not belong to any member state of the United Nations. If that is true, then the claim that Kashmir is an integral part of India does not stand. If Kashmir does not belong to any member state of the United Nations, then how can Kashmiris secede from a country like India, to which they have never acceded to in the first place? So, Kashmiris are not and cannot be called secessionists or separatists.

The term “Fundamentalism” is strictly inapplicable to Kashmiri society. One of the proud distinctions of Kashmir has been the sustained tradition of tolerance, amity, good will and friendship between the different religious and cultural communities. It has a long tradition of moderation and non-violence. Its culture does not generate extremism. Only the brutal repression by India has caused the emergence of some elements that appear extremist but are willing to accept a just and sensible solution. The Kashmiri Hindus, though a tiny minority, just less than 2 % of total population, flourished under the Kashmiri Muslim majority.

In this century, their’s was perhaps the only community outside Europe and North America which claimed one hundred per cent literacy. They have always been the part of the freedom struggle in Kashmir. Because Kashmir conflict was never a fight between Hindus and Muslims. It was never a struggle between theocracy and secularism. Nor was it a border dispute between India and Pakistan. It has always been about the destiny, future and lives of 13 million people of Kashmir, be they Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs or Buddhists.

Kashmiri Hindus equally believe just like their Muslim compatriots that the resistance in Kashmir is against alien occupation and is not communal. It cannot be communal and should not be. The compulsions of Kashmir’s history and the demands of its future alike forbid religious conflict or sectarian strife.

The mass exodus of Kashmiri Pandits from the Valley has been not only tragic but also wholly incompatible with Kashmiri aspirations. Only impartial investigation under international auspices can determine whether or not it was initiated by the Governor Jag Mohan – to clear the field for the actions the authorities had planned. It is certain that Hindus were provided facilities by the authorities for their mass migration.

Now, what needs to be done? First, we need to rule out one thing, i.e., doing nothing. Time is not on the side of Kashmiris. Time is not going to heel the problem. Time has made the situation worst in Kashmir.

There are suggestions being made by some quarters that the U.N. should broker a deal on Kashmir between India and Pakistan. Kashmiris wish to stress that their land is not a real estate, which can be parceled out between two disputants but the home of a nation with a history far more compact and coherent than India’s and far longer than Pakistan’s. No settlement of their status will hold unless it is explicitly based on the principles of self-determination and erases the so-called line of control, which is in reality the line of conflict.

Some suggest an autonomy deal. This is a clear fallacy. Here you rely on the provision of Indian Constitution. All the constitutions of the world are subject to amendment. If not today, if not tomorrow, in the nearest future, this provision will be deleted from the Indian Constitution and it will not even need any debate for that.

It is being proposed that India and Pakistan resolve all conflicts through peaceful bilateral negotiations including the issue of Kashmir. Kashmiris are not necessarily against any such move. But they want these negotiations to be meaningful and purposeful. In order to make these talks fruitful, the following steps need to be taken by both India and Pakistan:

1. There has to be a cease-fire from all sides that must be followed by negotiations. Negotiations cannot be carried out at a time when parties are trying to kill each other;

2. The time has come that there must be a third party mediation to make sure that the talks between India and Pakistan are meaningful. The third party mediation does not necessarily need to be the United States or the United Nations; it could be a person of an international standing, like President Jimmy Carter or President Nelson Mandela;

3. The history of past fifty-four years testifies to the fact that the bilateral talks between India and Pakistan have been always fruitless. In fact any attempt to strike a deal between any two parties without the association of the third party, will fail to yield a credible settlement.

The agreement between Sheikh Abdullah and Jawaharlal Nehru in 1952; and the pact between Sheikh Abdullah and Indira Gandhi in 1975; and an agreement between Farooq Abdullah and Rajiv Gandhi in 1980`s sought to bypass Pakistan, leaving the basic issue of Kashmir unsettled.

Likewise, the Tashkent Agreement of 1966 between India and Pakistan, the Simla Agreement of 1972, Lahore Declaration of 1998 and Agra Summit of 2001, sought to bypass the people of Kashmir and it resulted in a failure. So the time has come that talks must be tripartite. The reason that talks must be tripartite is that the dispute primarily involves three parties - India, Pakistan and the people of Kashmir. But the primary and principal party are the people of Kashmir, because it is ultimately their future, the future of 13 million people of Kashmir that is at stake.

The Irish Peace process would not have been possible without the participation of the Sinn Fein. Indonesia could not have resolved East Timor dispute without including East Timorese into discussion. The Kosovo East peace process would have been only a dream had there not been the participation of the KLA. Therefore, we believe that India and Pakistan cannot by themselves reach a settlement over Kashmir without associating the genuine Kashmiri leadership – All Parties Hurriyet Conference [APHC] with the negotiations. Otherwise, it would be performing Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark.

We hope that the United States and the international community will realize that what is at stake in the dispute is not only the survival of the people of Kashmir but what is at stake is the peace and prosperity of the whole region of South Asia.

Dr Ghulam-Nabi Fai is the Executive Director of the Washington based Kashmiri American Council.

Kashmiri American Council 733-15th Street, NW Suite 1100 Washington, DC 20005 Tel: 202-628-6789 / 202-607-6585 Fax: 703-938-0733 E-mail: kac@kashmiri.com Website: www.kashmiri.com





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Shammi #2

Gandhi spoke against this inter religous marriage 50 yrs back for the same reason ,b/c it causes discord on BOTH sides of the community.Im not taking about one or two insignificant ppl. b/c on exception basis many muslims may drink fornicate or even eat pork.Bt who wants to worry about that or make an issue.Gandhi stopped marriage of Nehrus sister Pandit Vijay laxmi to brother of Iqbal Quereshi columnist in Pakistan.

You should Know the islamic jurisprudence to understand the complexity of such marriage & in India Muslims stil have personal laws.

``who dislike the fact that you are educated, can dress without having to bow to anyone else`s sensibilities, and cannot stand the fact that you can work to earn your living, drive a car, and vote against whomsover you wish? Will you give in like the millions of women in Afghanistan who were so deprived?``

Where did you get this impression ,Night show talk hosts of America?

Is Farzana the MOST educted Muslim Female ?

`` `` `` Prvovctaviley dressed `` ?

`` `` The first working women ?

`` `` `` Drive car ?

ON one hand you have secret information of a pakistani boy marrying a Govt officers daughter but dont know what muslim women can do?

There is one thing having rights & completely ignorence on your part how many % indian women drive .Should i assume that Hindu dont let there wives drive or dont let there women work out side life of sati savitrihouse wife???????????

You knew Shahabuddion daughter in IIT delhi ,Didnt she bear a child from a hindu boy in Columbia???

I doubt yuou have seen Farzana neither have i so its wrong to assume so many things about her & worse of all about Islam.If you dont know plz shattap & i consider you among the muslim friendly hindians.

Thanks MS Farzana. Great article.

Just one question about BB: (``She can talk all the Sindhi she wants with Advani but, having done that, she has lost every right to make noises about Indian Muslims and their suffering.) What did she say about Indian Muslims?

re author`s

``Where was this Parliament all these years when the challenge was greater? And does it strike the PM that among these 100 crore people, some are indeed terrorists themselves? ``

The same analogy the doesn`t work anymore. Like Arafat claiming that ISarelis are terrorists and Arabs hoping that somehow by miracle the WTC suspects turn out to be little Timothy McVeighs.

India`s parliament has been there always. Bickersome, stalled, often as feisty as a fish-market on Marina Drive, more often than not utterly corrupt. But it has been there, a signal symbol of the world`s biggest democracy. The lallu-panjus who explode a bomb at a city market to exact toll or what not may be called terrorists but it is simply not in the same league as those who attacked the seat and symbol of mankind`s biggest democracy.

India`s government will and should lose faith with its people and with the free world if it doesn`t not exact punishment from those responsible.

In this war between terror and civilization there is simply no fence where you can sit: either you are for freedom or you`re for terror. And while indigineous Kashmiris may count as freedom fighers, the mercenaries and their supporters are just that: mercenaries.

Friends of South Asia are organizing a peace vigil on Monday, December 31st at 9 P.M. at Cesar Chavez Park, downtown San Jose.

[On Market Street, in front of the Fairmont Hotel where ``Christmas in the Park`` is held.).

Peace-loving people from all races, religions, and walks of life are requested to attend the vigil. Over 200 people are expected. Please bring candles and pickets.

Background:

The growing tensions in South Asia are jeopardizing the lives of the people that live in India, Pakistan, and the surrounding countries -- more than a fifth of humanity. In a war between those two countries there will be no winners and some sure losers: the people, the environment, and the planet.

War in South Asia is not a concern for South Asians alone. It is the responsibility of rational, reasonable people around the globe to join hands and prevent what can very easily become the apocalypse we have been dodging since Hiroshima.

Friends of South Asia appeal to the leaders of India and Pakistan to avoid war and settle all issues through dialogue. We appeal to the US government and other World leaders to do all in their power to prevent the unthinkable.

Friends of South Asia: 408 265 2795

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Farzana

``We, the people, want to know why we are being stopped from loving others only because they come from a different country and religion. We want to know why we have to be a part of the war against terrorism but we cannot fight against the terror of always being expected to say the right things. We want to know why Muslims in India have to behave like loyal dogs when they are being asked to find their own utopia.``

Another pathetic play for the pak galleries. Just go and join the APHC, the great leaders of that organisation are really the lovers of another country. Dont forget, they refused to talk to the indian government, but the embiciles of delhi had no problem in allowing the APHC to talk to the mushy when he came to agra.

Another gutless senseless para graph, go and join the APHC and re-write it. be a lover of another country, be the loyal dogs of the land of the pure, and you can still remain in india.

Farzana:

I must let you in on the prevalent discussions in the so-called elite society to which I am supposed to belong. When the bomb blasts happened after the Bombay riots, there were any number of people, and I am talking about those from the majority community, who said, “If they had to do this, they should have targeted Mantralaya (the seat of government in the city) and we would have all been happy.”

Me: Taking pot shots at politicians has always been a part of any evening political discussion. To jump from that to saying that the people are actually okay with terrorist attacks on parliament is a real stretch.

Farzana: They entered Parliament. They managed to get a sneak look into the House .

Me: Kudos to the security forces and the Vice President`s convoy. These guys were not tourists. Besides, lets not minimize the bravery of those officers who died in protecting the seat of our democracy. Further, Pakistan should count itself lucky too. If these guys actually killed Indian leaders- then there would have been far less posturing. The war would have already begun. Currently, the Indians are being most restrained- by waiting to see if political pressure works. Most countries would have not taken that extra step.

Farzana: At this point in time, the man to be pitied the most is General Pervez Musharraf. He will be held indirectly responsible for anything that happens in our subcontinent.

Me: Really? This is the guy who is responsible for Kargil too. He thought that venture was productive, after a duly elected PM of Pakistan(I know they don`t give a hoot about elections over there) negotiated with an elected PM of India, and came up with a framework for discussing bilateral issues including J&K. Contrast that with the supposed ``war monger``, Vajpayee, who made that bus ride to Lahore. The bottom line is neither Pakistan nor any Middle Eastern country has ever negotiated any political agreement without a war preceding it.

Farzana:Why am I bringing the Indian Muslims into this? Because immediately after listening to the news, I got a call and the only question was, “So, will there be problems for us now? Any riots?

Me: If one phone call and a show on Zee tv is enough to get you excited then so be it. But then you are doing the same thing as the caller did. One phone call - and the entire majority community is type cast. Now, the caller probably gets to see your work in print. The theme of which is pity Musharaff, the guys who attacked parliament were Indians- nah, couldn`t have been Pakistan... coupled with a ``why can`t we all get along?``, and suddenly other viewers reading this could say..``Hmm..maybe the guy who called you had a point.`` Two can play the provocative game. :-).

Reply Harimau #5

Transition begs.

*clash!!!! *

svaha

harimau #5:

You might find it interesting that Farzana herself a Gujarati Muslim is (or was, not sure) married to a Gujarati Jain guy.

Satyavadi

There never has been talk of war between people.. Most of Inidans dont hate Pakistanis.. but the hate the idea of partition, idea of division, idea of division of people based on religion... So all this border we are talking abt is about religion based separatism.. None of you shallow peaceniks have courage to tell tell that the real solution to all these problems is to undo the partition.. Partition separating people with shared 5000 years of roots.. Only people benefitting from this division of people in our great Indian subcontinent have been outsiders.. Just take a look at recent and past histories.. When all have our great land been captured and looted by foreigners only when we were divided. Thats what is happening today. Chinese, Russians, Americans are basically looting our sub-continent, looting our money by selling costly arms.. Only solution is undo this partition and have local level empowerment of people..

For this undoing, all those people who stand for this partition have to be destroyed. Let there be war.. Let there be holocaust even.. I think something better will come out of this ``manthan``.. It will surely purge the divisive forces.. I will get rid of all the fascist voices of partition..

Let there be unified subcontinent..

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[I watch the serial ‘Sarhedein’ on Zee TV. A Pakistani boy falls in love with an Indian girl in Kuala Lumpur. She is a Hindu. He follows her to India. Her brother is fighting on the front against the Pakis. Aman and Chandni could have been a model, but it will not happen. Because we do not want it to.]

Yes, Farzana, it happens. But it happens quietly and doesn`t make the TV news. And it happens among people you don`t know. But that doesn`t mean it doesn`t happen.

In the city of Bombay, two of my niece`s classmates (nice Gujarati boys) have married Muslim girls. We are talking anti-Muslim, Shiv-Sena- and Bal-Thakrey-dominated Bombay.

I have had occasion to mention a Muslim colleague who met and married an Iyer girl in Poona. Again, in Shiv Sena dominated Maharashtra.

Last week, I learnt that a close friend`s nephew is marrying his Muslim co-worker. He is a Tamil Brahmin from Madras.

You are talking about a fictional depiction in a TV serial and complain about the unfair portrayal of Muslims.

Let me give you a real picture.

My friend`s mother left Karachi in Aug 1947 with her children and the clothes on her back. Her husband stayed behind and returned to India after seeing to it that all the Indians were evacuated safely out of Karachi. He was the last South Indian to leave. For years his wife didn`t know if her husband would return alive from Pakistan. He and every Indian who left Karachi came to India with just the clothes on their backs. They were stripped of all their personal possessions and their money in order for them to leave Pakistan.

We are not talking about the madness of Partition. We are talking 7 years later. Where was the Quranic injunction about cutting off the hands of thieves? Is it okay to steal the kafir`s money and possessions? Is that what is says in the Quran?

So take your ``Poor lttle me, I am being discriminated against because I am a Muslim and Muslims are depicted unfairly on TV serials`` crap somewhere else. I know the reality whereas you watch TV and take that to be the reality.

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Thank you Farzana for that. Eloquent as always; ``From here I shall make my own borders - that hazy line where the sky meets the sea``.

The recent threat has forced us, those who live on both sides of the war, to re-examine ourselves. Starting with Arundhati Roy and all the way to this one, there have been a series of articles, voices echoing for sanity to prevail in the face of this immeasurable horror. Good that finally we come to our senses. That we recognise the similar need to live and breathe and practise love with those we know. Anything but war.

Although I have quoted this excerpt elsewhere, in another post, I`d like to share it now too for it is uncannily appropriate for our damned days.



``Now is not the time for verbal swordplay, for unlikely flights of imagination and wildly shifting perspectives, for metaphysical conceit, for wit. . . .Now is a time for simplicity. Now is a time for, dare I say it, kindness.`` - Margaret Edison, ``W;t``, Winner of the Pulitzer Prize for drama, 1999.

Aamir

Farzana:

``...A Pakistani boy falls in love with an Indian girl in Kuala Lumpur. She is a Hindu. He follows her to India. Her brother is fighting on the front against the Pakis...``

This really happened to a classmate of mine. She was the daughter of a the Naval Chief in India. She fell in love with and married a Pakistani. It was a small sensation -- and was reported all over the media.

``And am I equipped to protect my country against terrorists?...I don’t want to...My enemies are only those who want to rob me of my identity, wherever they are...``

And what if the enemy are the cohorts of the Taleban/Al Qaeda, who dislike the fact that you are educated, can dress without having to bow to anyone else`s sensibilities, and cannot stand the fact that you can work to earn your living, drive a car, and vote against whomsover you wish? Will you give in like the millions of women in Afghanistan who were so deprived?

Happy New Year!

Great writing here Farzana.
Let us openly talk about geographical and ideological borders even though some of us know that the human heart recognizes neither. Let us keep fighting for our rights wherever we may happen to be.

Ras

PS:See Below

HELP TO STOP WAR IN SOUTH ASIA

All who value peace and human life need to intervene and stop war in South Asia. India and Pakistan are poised to engage in such a misadventure as their respective troops and missiles (possibly nuclear) face each other on their border and on the Line of Control in Kashmir. This is happening while we in the United States are busy watching the news from neighboring Afghanistan.

People of Indian and Pakistani origin especially need to wake up to the reality of what kind of misery this conflict will produce. Our armchair warmongers of South Asian origin who now make their homes outside the region, in Europe, Canada and here in the United States need to get a large dose of reality.

Some Pakistanis are arranging a peace march at a Northern California venue (exact date and place to be decided) this week and urge all from the South Asian (aka “Desi”) Diaspora and their friends to protest against the possibility of war between India and Pakistan. I hope that Americans will join us and show solidarity with the pursuit of sanity in the region. Let us have a happy, peaceful and prosperous new year in a part of the world where the misery of poverty already rules the streets. Help us stop this looming war.

dost-mittar #237 This is the site which has the song and others. No name of the singer there, though.

http://www.always-safe.com/xmas/realplayer/

sadna

“semipreciousme #214

You seem to have misunderstood my comments to Farzana, I suggest you read them again. Anyone in the world is free to comment on things Indian, as far as I am concerned.”

…my apologies if i took you out of context…

Dost Mittar: Hope you got the recording I sent.

anNy;

[Pls tell me if you are because i dont like such cheek and that also coming from young men like yourself who I eat for breakfast]

- You are so cute.

(In a non-patronising, genuinely charmed by you sort of way....)

:)

all you people obsessed with achaars are gonna have horrible skin...all that grease has to go somewhere...

anNy:

“but there is no achaar like the leembo ka achaar this 80 year old bua makes at the haveli in ahmedabad...youre left licking yur fingers and craving like crazy for more after a whole bottle thatll give ulcers to anyone...”

….and i say there’s nothing as finger lickin good as the mango ka aachar my nani ama makes…no limo shimo or allo shallo ka aachar can hold a candle to that…just the right amount of ripeness, loads of saunf and mirchein…..mmmm….

ps....hey anNy, pringles ka achaar....?

pmishra2 (218) ``Wadera -- please add your authoritative insight in this space.``

Umm -hmmmm .... `authoritative insight` ...? Well ...um ... really, not since Class IV when I took it upon myself to bring to order a recalcitrant wood rose vine (the teacher`s prized item) was the word `authoratitive` used ....(insert modest smile and a self-deprecating shrug here ...) Come to think of it, it was actually ANOTHER word he used...

But seriously, the one thing I can say with certainty is that the goons (whoever they may be) who killed innocent people (Hindus in this case) can only be called murderers.

achaar discussion

my fav is pachranga - esp the lotus stalks !! you lucky lucky people - you dont have to pick&choose betw complexion and achaar!

aicha

``Not as funny as you Pakis...``

Harpreet are u getting cute with me again? I`m not sure. Pls tell me if you are because i dont like such cheek and that also coming from young men like yourself who I eat for breakfast. If, however that was a compliment, thank u very much. We are indeed, a great people.

dosmittarjee:

I was waiting to write after having confirmed the aloo ka achaar. There is an aloo ka achaar and it is different from the khatae aloo others on the board are talking off. My aunt also says its very difficult to make...takes a few days. The aloo apparently has to be sookhofied. You know, all this talk of an achaar reminds me of this positively killing achaar a distant aunt of my fathers makes for niaz (a sort of offering) when they have their majlis every moharram. i GO for the achaar and steal as much as i can the next afternoon when i just `drop in` to say salaam...then eat it rookha. Full ulcer scene. :0) Saeb ka achaar? if you can, do ask your bhabhi to give you the recipe and post it here or mail it to me..apple pickle! say, have u tasted carrot pickle by any chance? kachae gajar ka achaar...

haii, i see my chai-chillichips diet flying out the window :(

To all war-haters (aka wagah-candle-lighters, new-year-chanters, peace-bell-ringers)

what is your definition of war?

anNy#172;

Speaking of aachars, in my opinion the best thing to ever come out of Pakistan is ``Ahmeds Pickles`` from Karachi. Their aamb da aachar is so good I can get through a jar of that stuff myself in a week.

anNy#172;

[and sikhs are some of the funniest people ever...]

- Not as funny as you Pakis...

Farzana, if I can back up my statements with why I like Pakistanis I will surely do that. So far, I have no reason to like them because

1) they don`t believe in equality of all religions.

2) they don`t believe in peaceful co-existence

3) they don`t mind resorting to terror tactics to achieve what they want

4) On top of all that they are downright liars and hypocrites

My question to you again is when did Vajpayee ask you to hate Pakistanis just because they happen to be Pakistanis?

Also, if I come and tell you that I like somebody who has looted your house what is your reaction going to be? Are you going to hug me for my open mindedness?

SalmaKhan

I wish the Indian Hindu majority had also a live conscience like yourself. I think the day I will read such a post from a Hindu, I will lose my eye-sight.

Re: Stuka

``...Pardon my lack of understanding, but how can the politicians be right both now and during Kargil?...``

Elementary, my dear Watson! War, without clear pre-determined political objectives, is useless. Military `victories` that do not result in attaining political objectives are really defeats. Political strategy has to drive war objectives, not the other way around. That is why von Clausewitz (heard of him?) called it `continuation of state policy through other means`. India`s objectives viz-a-viz Kashmir are to (a) convert LoC to border, and (b) stop cross-border terrorism. In `99, by exhibiting restraint on the LoC, India earned global appreciation while Pakistan came to be seen as an unstable, nuclear, reckless, adventurist state. Kargil did more to firm-up the LoC as a legally-recognized separation than any other Indian action since `71. It also made Pakistan`s protestations about its lack of support for terrorism less tenable. By the same token, Pakistan`s antics in Kargil were probably blessed as being tactically brilliant by some Pakistani General, but a lack of understanding of the larger world in which everyone (including they) have to operate in proved to be disastrous for them. Ditto for Indian Generals who were raring to go -- the politicians knew that capturing or holding on to PoK is not India`s political objective, and doing so would undermine the entire LoC (which the Pakistanis wanted to do anyway). Their enthusiasm needed to be tempered.

Now the world is focused on terrorism like never before. Terrorism is no longer an acceptable modus-operandi for any cause, and Musharraf cannot easily make the case for JeM/LeT like he could earlier. The J&K Assembly and the Parliament attack (coupled with the Bush doctrine of legitimizing war to counter terror) makes it diplomatically feasible for India to threaten war if Pakistan does not crack down on its home-grown jehadis. Thus, the world has an easier time pressuring Musharraf to crack down on the same, than in asking India to restrain itself. That is what seems to be happening.

Very few Generals would have figured all of this out. They are unable to capitalize on `diplomatic` power, and rely solely on the power they have -- ie military. Ever heard the saying -- `give a child a hammer, and everything looks like a nail`? Thus, Churchill`s dictum `War is too serious a business to be left to the Generals` rings true even today.

Enjoy your stay in India.

re: salmakhan # 215

Hey, Mr. Khan, it was wonderful that you as an Indian, along with other Indians of all faiths, were present at the peace rally. Were I nearby, I too would have joined you, giving further lie to our friend`s arguments. We should do our very best to avoid war, not ad infinitum, but as long as possible.

But when we are talking of avoiding war, rightly IMO, let us have on record your views on proxy war that has also killed howsoever many people (muslims only?) as you mentioned? It seems a bit odd to oppose war if it were to be initiated by India and support it if it is launched by Pakistan.

Regards.

Freedom Fighters, Keep up the good work. Of course, we know all of this is being carried

out by Indian goverment agents. Wadera -- please add your authoritative insight in this space.



[FROM DAWN]

Mujahideen kill six members of Hindu family: JAMMU, Jan 07: Six members of a Hindu family, including four children, were killed today by Mujahideen in Kashmir, army officials said. The attackers threw hand grenades and opened fire at a house in Banihal village, 160 kilometres north of Jammu, Lieutenant Colonel H.S. Oberoi said. He said Mujahideen were responsible for the attack, though he did not identify any particular group. (AFP) (Posted @ 16:25 PST)

semipreciousme #214
You seem to have misunderstood my comments to Farzana, I suggest you read them again. Anyone in the world is free to comment on things Indian, as far as I am concerned.

Farzana:

Mumbai is Cool, Delhi s *cks. This is the truth. Will elaborate. Athena is a cool place, nice women an all, but still overpriced. Had the best tangdis, boti kababs, seekhs at an all night joint close by.

Prem: Seriously, Bloody Pakis, true enemies of India, couldn`t even do one favor for us.

Shammi: Pardon my lack of understanding, but how can the politicians be right both now and during Kargil? That time they were against the crossing of the LOC, inspite of specific tactical advantages, and today they want to cross the LOC, WITHOUT ANY SPECIFIC TACTICAL ADVANTAGE?? This time, it is the army, which has mobilized, yes, but only under political dictation. The military has made it known that it is not in favor of crossing the LOC as it would not accrue into military gain.

TAhmed: Thanks for the best wishes. I am in Delhi, going to Amritsar tonite. Will be at the Wagah Attari border tommorrow, to catch the first glimpse of Pakistan. :) Going back on the 15th.

RE: Peace Vigil in San Jose.

Well Mr. Chandan.

I will try and answer your (accusations) in the order you have made them.

Chandan: I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan. Rest of the people present there were pretending as if they were representing American Indian voices too. They could not even bring any of their Indian friends (if they have any). Carrying the Indian flag they wanted to pretend to passing by people that they were mixture of Indians and * * * * * .. This thing was really deceptive.

-SK: I am an Indian. So there goes your deception theory. By the way half the people over there were Indians or married to one.

If your definition of an Indian is only ``Hindu`` then I have to say at least there were 4 of them. Not to say the least that a lot of them joined for small intervals in our chants of ``NO MORE WAR`` ``PEACE NOW``. In this case all your claims to being Hindu and Muslims being brothers etc are fading way very quickly.

Chandan: There was not a single mention of terrorism in the placards. As if to say that there is a war to start in South Asia out of blue, may be just because Indians and * * * * * hate each other. Basically agenda rather than ``peace`` was ``save pakistan``.

-SK: In war obviously there are two people fighting. The whole theme was no political statements. We just want peace and better sense to prevail. Is that too difficult to comprehend.

chandan:I had a poster criticizing ``military dictatorships`` and saying ``Indians and * * * * * are one``, I was accused of being ``divisive``, ``anti-peace`` and ``with hidden agenda``. So I guess another agenda was ``save mr. musharraf`` and keep floating the theory that muslim-hindu are separate people.

-SK: As I said the theme was to avert war. Give two hoots to anything else. If there is going to be war then the remaining people if any can make that decision for themselves. All we tried to tell you was that your views were misplaced not inappropriate. Besides the existence of Pakistan is a fact. Lets just be realistic here. I guess ``Mushraff is the evil doer to all what is wrong in India?``. If they are Hindus and Muslims doesn`t it mean that they are different as one would call a Christian being different from a Muslim or a Jew.

Chandan:One of the organizer tried to read some crappy article from WPost basically whose import was ``hey Indians are basically Hindus and India-Pak difference is between hindus and muslims..``. When will * * * * * start looking at the census figures. Sorry to break the news guys. For decades in India more muslims live than in Pakistan and even so more peacefully than any where, with more democratic rights than anywhere. So please stop giving BS that India-Pak dispute is abt Hindu-Muslim.

-SK: I guess if you were paying more attention you would have realized it was an article about the last bus journey from India to Pakistan. There are muslims living in India and in a lot of other countries which are democratic in nature. None of the people over there said the war was about Hindus and Muslims. Get off you high horse. In your infinite wisdom you are imagining things. You have formed that opinion yourself. By the way dispute is about Kashmir. A piece of land which has the democratic right to self determination in a democratic country.

Chandan:It seems organizers had special affinity to ``two nation theory``. The basic point was even if a nation is attacked and engaged in proxy wars for years, it should still maintain ``peace``. I Wonder organizers ever called for peace when innocent people get butchered by terrorists. Only when there is talk of retaliation from India, it seems they hear their scared relatives in Pakistan and then come out to talk about ``peace

-SK: You have to get your data correct. More than 60000 civilians (Muslims) have died most by the hands of Indian Security forces. No Independent news journalists and Amnesty International is allowed into that region. If your talking about proxies lets take India. India has done it with Pakistan in 1971. So should I take the liberty and call India what? and the military incursion into Sri Lanka. You have any idea how many people died in 1971.

Chandan: Ok guys lick the * * * * * of Bush or whoever powerful you can find around the world to save your terrorist regime or jehadi brothers.

But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it. I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected, but we do need to respond to this fascist evil scourge of Jehadism and free our * * * * brothers from it too. So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.

-SK: All what I have to say ``Your entire purpose at the peace vigil was ``Lets have a war. Which in some way translates to your perverted version of peace. Nice going. I wish you haven`t showed up at all.`` It was people like you who convinced a lot of people, who were not convinced, in the 1940`s that India should be divided.Read your history, the unbiased ones.. Tone down the rehtoric and stop halucinating about victory. In a nuclear war there is no victory. Everybody is a loser.

Here is the bottom line ``For everything you are saying there is a counter argument. Our theme and feeling is/was lets stop the madness. Work out your differences. Hope I am clear in responding.

Again what ever you believe, like to believe its your business. But please give peace and sense a chance to prevail before passing judgements. If someone like you can make mountains out of moles then what I can say. Makes me kind of wonder: Why can`t the two countries live in peace and harmony?

You tell me?

sadna

“Farzana

Why do you write for a site where Pakistanis (who will NEVER vote in an election in India) write long articles and posts about human rights violations, political affairs and caste system and Dalits in India? Going by those whom you keep slapping down for being expatriate and still daring to speak here, its only Hindu Indians who should keep quiet according to you. Congratulations and keep spreading the poison!”

….sadna, this isn’t some sort of us vs. them contest…it’s about learning and understanding the other’s pain and point of view about…(yes, you can roll your eyes) …if it bothers you that pakistanis write about “human rights violations, political affairs and caste system and Dalits in India”, you’re more than welcome to right about all of pakistan’s ills (which should keep you more than occupied) or the things that you love about india….

tahmed321 # 206

Agreed. Oppression of the military of the kind found in India does lead to some pathologies - corruption, inefficiencies, delays, (sometimes) reduced quality of both military training and hardware, and increased military frustration/decreased morale. Nevertheless, I would rather have an inefficient military than a military that dominates collective existence.

In a way, this is the age-old problem of balancing efficiency (doing things right) and effectiveness (doing right things).

nasah # 207

nasah bhai, why must you wish such misfortune to our friend? Aakhir (hmmm.. why does that remind me of Aamir?), islamic purity bhi koi cheez hoti hai :)

nasah #204
I only just came across this, so be warned :)
http://www.ndtvcooks.com/recipes/vegetablerecipe.asp?id=18&name=Achar+Ke+Aloo

I was going to begin a countdown: Since Blair is visiting the region, we can expect some kind of oh-so-conveniently-timed attack, `hijacking`, heavier-than-usual-firing -- India is BOUND to produce SOME kind of incident. I`m a little late with the countdown apparantly : a `spy`plane has been shot down over Kashmir by India. (Supposedly Pakistani). Is it true? CAN it be .... (gasp!!) Pakistani? Will we see the wreckage with the green and white and the crescent? Will the painted markings reveal the date of their being painted and the artist`s name and price tag?? Or is the `incident` to be yet to take place? Be extra vigilant, everyone in the region - that`s all I can say.

I was going to begin a countdown: Since Blair is visiting the region, we can expect some kind of oh-so-conveniently-timed attack, `hijacking`, heavier-than-usual-firing -- India is BOUND to produce SOME kind of incident. I`m a little late with the countdown apparantly : a `spy`plane has been shot down over Kashmir by India. (Supposedly Pakistani). Is it true? CAN it be .... (gasp!!) Pakistani? Will we see the wreckage with the green and white and the crescent? Will the painted markings reveal the date of their being painted and the artist`s name and price tag?? Or is the `incident` to be yet to take place? Be extra vigilant, everyone in the region - that`s all I can say.

Bijli khanum -- wait till you fall in LOVE with a Hindu!!

Prem #203 ``the Indian system is basically one of the oppression of the military by our third-rate politicians. ``

Better than than vice versa.

Farzana #193

PS: The other quote was a back-handed compliment to mixed marriages. No two opinions about that



From rediff, June 16,1997: Farzana Versey; AntiView)

“The best thing after patriotism is secularism. Of course, one can conveniently, like the good English bishop, say, ``God said love your neighbour; he did not say love Marks and Spencer.``

SECULARISM=ELMINATION OF RELIGOUS ELEMENT FROM LIFE (New Websters Expanded Dictionary)

Roughly translated into our context, it could mean we may tolerate the bloke next door for his saffron or green colour, but we do not have to suffer the whole damned community. The problem is we think we are being grand. Secularism, in our contemporary context, is not a virtue. It is a Necessity. It should be propagated in the same way as family planning, self-reliance, ecology, health care and adult education, instead of a morally right position.

ONLY IN INDIA ,WHERE THEREIS A LARGE DIFFERING ETHNIC RELIGOUS DIVERSE GROUPS.HINDUISM IS NOT SECULAR NEITHER ISLAM BUT INDIA B/C OF ITS COMPOSITION IN WHICH NEITHER HINDU HAD A SAY NOR PLANNED BY ANY INDIAN BY INVITATION.

Those who marry across religions must be given similar privileges as those reserved for the scheduled castes and tribes. Their offspring should be provided state backup, whether in education, health or taxation. In fact, the state must encourage private elite institutions where these children can be educated without being tainted by our national obsession with party vengeance.

SO THAT MINORITY WILL BE FIRST TO BE DILUTED BY THE MAJORITY BY ENGULFING THE FEW BY THE MOST .GANDHI WAS AGAINST INTER RELIGOUS MARRIAGES.ITS CHILD ABUSE NOT TO SPEAK OF THE MARRIAGE ABUSE ITSELF.YOU WANT REWARD FOR MIX MARRIAGE WHEN IT IS NOT GOOD FOR ANYONE.

For secularism to be a success, it must work on the principle of reward rather than punishment. Very often, in the course of trying to sweep away the dust, we tuck it under the carpet whereas a positive wind of change can gently blow it away. To antagonize any community cannot be the motive of secularism. As has already been understood, religion circumscribes various other realities and, in the process, subsumes them. As one commentator pointed out, we mistakenly equate freedom of religion with freedom from religion. In the current situation, this is not universally accepted. Even an open Hindutva

FREEDOM OF RELIGION IS NOT SECULARISM.USA HAS FREEDOM OF RELIGION BUT IT NEVER CALLED ITSELF SECULAR DEMOCRACY LIKE THE INDIAN

supporter permitted himself some magnanimity when he stated elsewhere, ``The Muslim belief in the finality of God`s revelation in the Koran and in Mohammed`s prophecy is at odds with the spirit of Indian civilisation. But Indian civilisation is large enough to accommodate it.``

ITS INDIAS FATE THAT IT IS MULTI ETHNIC MULTI RELIGOUS MULTI RASCIAL NO INDIAN NO HINDU INVITED SPECIFICALLY TO HAVE SUCH A PARTY IN INDIA OF MULTIPLICITY .

Which is where the issue of small fundamentalist organizations and secularism arises. We have to see this in the context of minority power. Were a black person to marry a white person in a predominantly white community, the white person would get all the applause as well as have to bear the brunt of the backlash. Evolution itself depends largely on the

BLACK & WHITE ARE NOT RELIGIONS .ISSUES OF BLACK IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WHEN YOU HAVE A BLACK MUSLIM MARRYING A WHITE MUSLIM.

numbers game. While the majority can contain others, (and must, for magnanimity is possible only when you have the largesse) the minority has problems containing itself.

MAJORITY HAVE ADVANTAGE OF SURVIVING THE ATTRITION EITHER BY MIX MARRIAGES OR INDULGENCE IN SECULARISM,SPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE 5 TIMES MORE THAN YOUR NEAREST MINORITY .ENOUGH WILL SURVIVE NO MATTER WHAT.

For example, the Islamic Sevak Sangh had to pluck its members from the madrasas (religious schools) and unemployment rolls in Kerala. And its founder has stated, on record, that the Muslim League had done nothing for the Muslim community. But the RSS has always had considerable support from the BJP and VHP. In this combine, it could, at least until recently, be respected by a large section of the middle-class intelligentsia.

RSS BJP ARE FROM HINDU MAHASABHA ,JAN SANGH FOUNDED BY SHYAMA PRASAD MUKHERJEE ANTI MUSLIM LIKE PT.MALVIA,ETC

But religion per se cannot give anyone an identity in the fluctuating late 20th century society. It can only provide the much-dreaded moral fibre and a mistakenly-interpreted formula for living. Besides, it does colour our interpretation of the world.”

NO PROBLEM THERE

````there is this VERY spicy Punjabi? dish called acchar-key-aloo..````(sadna)

Now munh meiN panee a rahaa hai -- is this dish available in US? - or do you have the recipe Sadna?

stuka # 198

Funny you should say that. Just yesterday a friend was in rages complaining that Pakistani inefficiency has again left our parliamentarians alive :)

As to the antics of our politicians with respect to our military,, the Indian system is basically one of the oppression of the military by our third-rate politicians. I can`t recall off the cuff who, but an American scholar has expanded on that concept; and has evaluated the pros and cons of such an arrangment versus the opposite model followed by our friends across the border.

re: Stuka

Your post vindicates the wisdom of Churchill`s dictum: `War is too serious a business to be left to Generals`. The politicians had it right in Kargil, and seem to be doing the right things again.

Re: Dost-Mittarji

Yes, indeed, meeting would be nice. BTW, my family is still in Karol Bagh, in the same 60-year old house. It was one of the first homes in Karol Bagh, and will probably be the last to be demolished. My 96-year old Sialkoti dadi refuses to move. I too insisted, that the baraat for my wedding leave from the same house at my wedding a few years ago.

Unsubstantiated legend has it that Karol Bagh was named after the daughter of one of the British Viceroys. Her name was Carol.

Re: Sadna

You have to coordinates of Roopak Store right.

Talking of acchars, is this the same Roopak store on Ajmal Khan Road which used to stock absolutely delicious acchars, with walls lined with them, including the wonderful hari-mirch and lal-mirch.. It had a front window which was decorated with almonds.. btw, there is this VERY spicy Punjabi? dish called acchar-key-aloo..

Talking of ``Borders``, can any Indian please explain to me the rationale of going to war with Pakistan over the the attack on the Parliament? After all, what is the big deal about attacking a building?

Let me elaborate. In 1999, during the Kargil affair, the military tried it`s best to convince the political establishment that crossing the LOC was an imperative need. At that time, crossing the LOC would have resulted in a flanking movement and would also have resulted in additional pressure on Pakistani positions. However, the political establishment of India decided that due to international pressure, and also to mantain ``sanctity of line of control``, it was essential for the Indian Army to launch suicidal frontal attacks without any regard for the number of officers and men lost.

Now, take a look at the present situation. Not a single MP, Minister etc was killed. But just the fear of death is now provoking them to talk of war. What happened to the ``sanctity of the line of control``? Does the LOC become sanctified only when military lives are to be lost? Personally speaking, if the attack had been successful, and 200-300 haramzada politicians had been killed, I would have been very happy, and would have gone around shaking the hand of every Paki I knew, just to express my gratitude at the huge favor being done to India.

But that`s just me. Other Indians, fine, you may think that`s a bit much, but why don`t I see any form of indignation at the blatant hypocrisy of our political establishment?

If not the citizens, at least the military should be more forceful about this. Or, are the generals too busy playing golf and brown nosing politicians for post retirement benefits, while the captains, the majors and the brave Jawans lose their lives in battle?