Borders are Made of These

Joeseph Arokiaraj Reply # 15:

Mate, U should visit Pakistan :) really You have some misconceptions about life in Pakistan, thanks to Indian media I must say.

There is no obligation in Pakistan, everyone practices his/her own religion with freedom, I infact have quite a few good christian friends and I never saw any prejudice against them as u seem to understand. They are given admission into colleges and Universities on the basis of Merit, not on the basis of which religion they belong to like in the other side of the border.

There is noone trying to demolish Mandars or Churches of minorities in Pakistan. As u can easily see it happening in India. So open ur eyes and try not to believe in the biased news of Indian media.

thanx

Asim

Hello Farzana . . . define ``borders`` if you don`t mind, because the hazy line where sky meets sea is called horizon, and I think I know about horizon, artificial horizon, line of sight horizon, height of eye corrections, day horizon, night horizon, stimulated horizon, etcetc.

Point, fine lady, is this: how will you make your own border/s if you can`t define them?

Ergo, you change, your borders change.

Life.

Whatever

Heck! Dear Chowk editors...this piece was sent a day after the incident. I sat up late, fought with someone on messenger, counted till ten about a hundred times to keep my anger leashed...I sent this with a red beacon light...well, I suppose these issues are always topical, except that some things have changed and I am going to get into trouble. So, what`s new?? And I do believe Chowk ke ghar mein…let me paraphrase…neend lambee hai magar jaag bhi jaate hai log :)

And anyway, my message still remains the same...er...whatever… Life has moved on, as we all know. I am deeply interested in the outcome of the televised Indo-Pak relationship, which I see as a microcosm of the larger one, because the media not only reflects society and influences it, but also distorts reality. I happen to know the reality rather well.

Now let’s talk business. And a hippy New Year to chowkwaalas and chokewaalas alike…I hope your love for me only grows with time ;)

Farzana

My dear Harimau:

You are telling Farzana:

``My friend`s mother left Karachi in Aug 1947 with her children and the clothes on her back.``

Now I will tell you something -- MY father ``left`` his house on Guruduwara Road, Karol Bagh, in September 1947 with his children and -- ``the clothes on HIS back`` -- to become a Jama Masjid refugee -- in his OWN country!

And he WAS a Freedom Fighter -- the REAL BIG ONE -- the radical kind -- literally FOUGHT for it -- definitely not an ARMCHAIR Congress kind.

Sooooo -- what ELSE is new, my friend?

Now -- will you puleeeeze -- quit whining about your ``friend`s mother``?

happy new year

hasan

My dear Farzana Versey:

Congratulations on a well written article.

Very eloquent very touching.

However if you’ll forgive me for saying this -- your perspective is getting a little narrower with sweeping generalizations based upon anecdotal events.

You don’t want to be treated as a victim – yet you make a fetish of your perceived victimization.

You want to be treated as an independent individual not disturbed by anybody or any event –yet you cannot separate yourself from the collective psyche of the “persecuted” Indian Muslims. At times it appears you are on both sides of an issue.

1. You consider an attack on a Parliament --no big deal -- because -- Indian Parliament is a noisy quarrelsome abode of corrupt crummy politicians anyway – deserved to be blasted by Jihadis -- because ``majority`` of Indian themselves said – Mantralay should have been bombed instead of the Bombay stock exchange.

2. You imply there shouldn’t have been any a big fuss by Indians – because only 5 men invaded the Parliament and only seven people died -- statistically insignificant indeed -- for a population of one billion miserable poor quality people.

3. Hindu Muslim marriages are occurring all the time – do you like them – or you don’t like them – it was difficult to ascertain where you stand – some accept it – some don’t -- some insist on conversion – some don’t – my younger sister’s daughter married a Hindu computer whiz kid – nobody asked, nobody converted – no big deal -- my three stupid brothers did not attend –I did, gave the couple my heartfelt blessing -- -- no big deal -- they are living happily ever after -- eventually everybody accepted everybody – anecdotal – and difficult to generalize.



4. If you don’t want to “fight terrorism” – don’t -- Idon`t know how a civilian is expectd to :fight terrorism`` -- anyway India is a free country like US -- of free individuals with freedom to choose -- PMs and Presidents of countries -- that are under attacks by Jihadi terrorists -- are supposed -- to call upon the people -- to fight terrorism and be vigilant – they are elected and “paid” by public to do that –no big deal -– they are not drafting you in the army to fight the Jihadis -- nor are they asking you to become a counterterrorist – so why carry a guilty conscience.

5. Your hypersensitivity to your perceived status as the “loyal dog” may be based upon facts – but be careful – it may also be a state of mind.

6. Finally you say that -- “I have only one small prayer to offer that unseen god of small things: Please keep me on the fence “ – I think that unseen god of small people -- called the Indian Muslims -- has already heard your prayers –that’s why those leaderless, poor folks are in such a mess -- as a Muslim elite and an intellectual what else can you do – except be comfortable -- sitting on the fence – you owe “nothing to nobody” – but then why complain about -- how those “loyal dogs” are treated by their presumed “kennel owners”.

7. You are a great writer, Farzana -- with lots of imaginations -- with a powerful pen to go with them -– I am really glad that you did not choose to become a journalist.

Happy New Year

best regards

I havent watched this particular tv serial but hindu-muslim marriages are not exactly unknown in India, particularly as education and urban values diminish differences based on community and religion.

In the one case of a close friend, neither are particularly religious in any orthodox sense but do partake of cultural activities. This is the sort of evolution in Indian culture thats always been happening.

I dunno if Farzana is married but if she isnt maybe she could experiment with having a ``hindu`` boyfriend for a while and write on the experience as a Chowk assignment. bonus points if the bf`s family is rabidly anti-muslim, anti-pakistan.

The other interesting phenomena I have observed is that in (some) upwardly mobile muslim families one could sense that their identities are a blend of their ethnicity, region, and religion as well as a liberal dose of pan-indianism.

I think there is a case to be made for a dynamic Indian cultural tradition that draws from religious, regional, and cultural traditions (and now increasingly western sources). Too often we are quick to see the negatives (of which there are many) in our cultures; how about appreciating the positives and being grateful for them?

Farzana,

As usual, a brilliant article. Haven`t been on chowk for too long, but I am really beginning to admire your work. Very thought provoking and often enjoyable.

Thanks and looking forward to reading more of your articles

harimau # 5

I can understand and respect your sentiments towards the situations of people like your friend`s mother. I also agree with you that many such inter-religion marriages happen in reality everyday. But, I have to differ with you at one point. In your reply, you said:

`` So take your ``Poor lttle me, I am being discriminated against because I am a Muslim and Muslims are depicted unfairly on TV serials`` crap somewhere else. I know the reality whereas you watch TV and take that to be the reality.``

It is true that Muslims were not the only ones discriminated against, but my question to you is:

Does one mistake become better than the other? In any case of discrimination, a certain group of people suffer. Does a certain religion make it ok for a peculiar group to suffer, and not even have a right to complaint about it (because someone else suffered more). This whole matter isn`t about who suffered more... Honestly, what the world needs today is to forget about who was worse off, and rather try to make sure that no one has to face such things again. So, I personally feel that regardless of what Hindus have suffered, you have no right to tell any muslim the type of statements you made above. We`d really be better off by accepting that such misrepresentation is happening (although, i don`t say that it is just of muslims), and try to find ways to improve it, instead of trying to quiet someone by telling them about someone who was worse off.

Anyways,

A Very Happy New Year to Everyone.

Regards

Priya

http://www.paknews.org/kashmir.php?id=1&date1=2001-12-30



Are Kashmiris Fundamentalist Secessionist Terrorists?

Dr Ghulam Nabi Fai

Updated on 2001-12-30 11:09:28



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The global campaign against terrorism should not degenerate into a campaign for the defense of tyrannies and illegal military occupations. There are many forces in the world which are salivating at the prospect of American power being used to prop up the brutal regimes they have foisted on peoples against popular will. India, which has accomplished over 55,000 deaths and untold number of acts of arson and rape, is certainly one among these. The world knows that the struggle of the people of Kashmir for the restoration of their right clearly recognized by the United Nations was and is in essence a non-violent struggle.

Any incursion into this struggle by unsavory elements does not change its character and aim. India’s sabre-rattling at this delicate moment is also indicative of its design to reap as much advantage as it can towards diverting international attention from the realities of the Kashmir dispute and the principles of a healthy and viable international order, which are involved in it.

We, at Kashmiri American Council (KAC), have expressed horror and revulsion of the dastardly terrorists attacks of September 11, 2001, on the American people and civilization generally. We expressed painful condolences to the families of victims of America`s blackest day with special anguish and empathy. This day marks a villainy in the history of mankind that is reminiscent of Kristallnacht during the Third Reich, and the culprits should know that the world will not sleep until they are apprehended and subject to condign punishment. We must call on every nation in the world to assist actively in identifying, apprehending, and punishing the culprits, including those who aided, abetted, or sheltered the guilty.

These terrorists transcend all cultural affiliations and moral boundaries. They know no religion. They are all guilty of a crime against humanity that compelled the most unforgiving of punishments. Such villains should be treated like a contagious disease that must be destroyed to prevent further wickedness. We hope that it be made an international crime against humanity to provide succor in any way to any individual, group, organization, or state that promotes terrorism.

India is trying to engage the sympathy of the United States for its stand on Kashmir by making the plea that the movement in Kashmir is a terrorist movement; Kashmir is an integral part of India; Kashmiris are secessionist; and the movement is launched by so called fundamentalist groups. How well grounded these pleas are can be judged from the following well-established facts and considerations:

During the latest phase of the freedom struggle, virtually all the citizenry of Srinagar (capital city of Kashmir) - men, women and children - came out multiple times on the streets to lodge a non-violent protest against the continuance of Indian occupation.

New York based Weekly India Abroad wrote in one of its dispatches that “According to one U.N. Observer, more than two million Kashmiris demonstrated during this period and the number of memorandums, submitted exceeded 400.`` Certainly, terrorists cannot compose the entire populations of the major towns of Indian-Occupied Kashmir. And two million people cannot be instigated and provoked by a remote control.

Two million people reflect the true nature of the peaceful Kashmiri resistance movement and not a movement of terrorism. Moreover, a terrorist does not believe in marching to the office of the UN, presenting petitions and reminding the UN to fulfill her pledge toward Kashmir. If all the people of the Vale of Kashmir are Pakistani agents, then that by itself removes the ground from India`s claim to the territory. .”

Is Kashmir an integral part of India and are Kashmiris secessionists? Kashmir is not and cannot be regarded as an integral part of India because under all international agreements, which were agreed by both India and Pakistan, negotiated by the United Nations, endorsed by the Security Council and accepted by the international community, Kashmir does not belong to any member state of the United Nations. If that is true, then the claim that Kashmir is an integral part of India does not stand. If Kashmir does not belong to any member state of the United Nations, then how can Kashmiris secede from a country like India, to which they have never acceded to in the first place? So, Kashmiris are not and cannot be called secessionists or separatists.

The term “Fundamentalism” is strictly inapplicable to Kashmiri society. One of the proud distinctions of Kashmir has been the sustained tradition of tolerance, amity, good will and friendship between the different religious and cultural communities. It has a long tradition of moderation and non-violence. Its culture does not generate extremism. Only the brutal repression by India has caused the emergence of some elements that appear extremist but are willing to accept a just and sensible solution. The Kashmiri Hindus, though a tiny minority, just less than 2 % of total population, flourished under the Kashmiri Muslim majority.

In this century, their’s was perhaps the only community outside Europe and North America which claimed one hundred per cent literacy. They have always been the part of the freedom struggle in Kashmir. Because Kashmir conflict was never a fight between Hindus and Muslims. It was never a struggle between theocracy and secularism. Nor was it a border dispute between India and Pakistan. It has always been about the destiny, future and lives of 13 million people of Kashmir, be they Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs or Buddhists.

Kashmiri Hindus equally believe just like their Muslim compatriots that the resistance in Kashmir is against alien occupation and is not communal. It cannot be communal and should not be. The compulsions of Kashmir’s history and the demands of its future alike forbid religious conflict or sectarian strife.

The mass exodus of Kashmiri Pandits from the Valley has been not only tragic but also wholly incompatible with Kashmiri aspirations. Only impartial investigation under international auspices can determine whether or not it was initiated by the Governor Jag Mohan – to clear the field for the actions the authorities had planned. It is certain that Hindus were provided facilities by the authorities for their mass migration.

Now, what needs to be done? First, we need to rule out one thing, i.e., doing nothing. Time is not on the side of Kashmiris. Time is not going to heel the problem. Time has made the situation worst in Kashmir.

There are suggestions being made by some quarters that the U.N. should broker a deal on Kashmir between India and Pakistan. Kashmiris wish to stress that their land is not a real estate, which can be parceled out between two disputants but the home of a nation with a history far more compact and coherent than India’s and far longer than Pakistan’s. No settlement of their status will hold unless it is explicitly based on the principles of self-determination and erases the so-called line of control, which is in reality the line of conflict.

Some suggest an autonomy deal. This is a clear fallacy. Here you rely on the provision of Indian Constitution. All the constitutions of the world are subject to amendment. If not today, if not tomorrow, in the nearest future, this provision will be deleted from the Indian Constitution and it will not even need any debate for that.

It is being proposed that India and Pakistan resolve all conflicts through peaceful bilateral negotiations including the issue of Kashmir. Kashmiris are not necessarily against any such move. But they want these negotiations to be meaningful and purposeful. In order to make these talks fruitful, the following steps need to be taken by both India and Pakistan:

1. There has to be a cease-fire from all sides that must be followed by negotiations. Negotiations cannot be carried out at a time when parties are trying to kill each other;

2. The time has come that there must be a third party mediation to make sure that the talks between India and Pakistan are meaningful. The third party mediation does not necessarily need to be the United States or the United Nations; it could be a person of an international standing, like President Jimmy Carter or President Nelson Mandela;

3. The history of past fifty-four years testifies to the fact that the bilateral talks between India and Pakistan have been always fruitless. In fact any attempt to strike a deal between any two parties without the association of the third party, will fail to yield a credible settlement.

The agreement between Sheikh Abdullah and Jawaharlal Nehru in 1952; and the pact between Sheikh Abdullah and Indira Gandhi in 1975; and an agreement between Farooq Abdullah and Rajiv Gandhi in 1980`s sought to bypass Pakistan, leaving the basic issue of Kashmir unsettled.

Likewise, the Tashkent Agreement of 1966 between India and Pakistan, the Simla Agreement of 1972, Lahore Declaration of 1998 and Agra Summit of 2001, sought to bypass the people of Kashmir and it resulted in a failure. So the time has come that talks must be tripartite. The reason that talks must be tripartite is that the dispute primarily involves three parties - India, Pakistan and the people of Kashmir. But the primary and principal party are the people of Kashmir, because it is ultimately their future, the future of 13 million people of Kashmir that is at stake.

The Irish Peace process would not have been possible without the participation of the Sinn Fein. Indonesia could not have resolved East Timor dispute without including East Timorese into discussion. The Kosovo East peace process would have been only a dream had there not been the participation of the KLA. Therefore, we believe that India and Pakistan cannot by themselves reach a settlement over Kashmir without associating the genuine Kashmiri leadership – All Parties Hurriyet Conference [APHC] with the negotiations. Otherwise, it would be performing Hamlet without the Prince of Denmark.

We hope that the United States and the international community will realize that what is at stake in the dispute is not only the survival of the people of Kashmir but what is at stake is the peace and prosperity of the whole region of South Asia.

Dr Ghulam-Nabi Fai is the Executive Director of the Washington based Kashmiri American Council.

Kashmiri American Council 733-15th Street, NW Suite 1100 Washington, DC 20005 Tel: 202-628-6789 / 202-607-6585 Fax: 703-938-0733 E-mail: kac@kashmiri.com Website: www.kashmiri.com





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Shammi #2

Gandhi spoke against this inter religous marriage 50 yrs back for the same reason ,b/c it causes discord on BOTH sides of the community.Im not taking about one or two insignificant ppl. b/c on exception basis many muslims may drink fornicate or even eat pork.Bt who wants to worry about that or make an issue.Gandhi stopped marriage of Nehrus sister Pandit Vijay laxmi to brother of Iqbal Quereshi columnist in Pakistan.

You should Know the islamic jurisprudence to understand the complexity of such marriage & in India Muslims stil have personal laws.

``who dislike the fact that you are educated, can dress without having to bow to anyone else`s sensibilities, and cannot stand the fact that you can work to earn your living, drive a car, and vote against whomsover you wish? Will you give in like the millions of women in Afghanistan who were so deprived?``

Where did you get this impression ,Night show talk hosts of America?

Is Farzana the MOST educted Muslim Female ?

`` `` `` Prvovctaviley dressed `` ?

`` `` The first working women ?

`` `` `` Drive car ?

ON one hand you have secret information of a pakistani boy marrying a Govt officers daughter but dont know what muslim women can do?

There is one thing having rights & completely ignorence on your part how many % indian women drive .Should i assume that Hindu dont let there wives drive or dont let there women work out side life of sati savitrihouse wife???????????

You knew Shahabuddion daughter in IIT delhi ,Didnt she bear a child from a hindu boy in Columbia???

I doubt yuou have seen Farzana neither have i so its wrong to assume so many things about her & worse of all about Islam.If you dont know plz shattap & i consider you among the muslim friendly hindians.

Thanks MS Farzana. Great article.

Just one question about BB: (``She can talk all the Sindhi she wants with Advani but, having done that, she has lost every right to make noises about Indian Muslims and their suffering.) What did she say about Indian Muslims?

re author`s

``Where was this Parliament all these years when the challenge was greater? And does it strike the PM that among these 100 crore people, some are indeed terrorists themselves? ``

The same analogy the doesn`t work anymore. Like Arafat claiming that ISarelis are terrorists and Arabs hoping that somehow by miracle the WTC suspects turn out to be little Timothy McVeighs.

India`s parliament has been there always. Bickersome, stalled, often as feisty as a fish-market on Marina Drive, more often than not utterly corrupt. But it has been there, a signal symbol of the world`s biggest democracy. The lallu-panjus who explode a bomb at a city market to exact toll or what not may be called terrorists but it is simply not in the same league as those who attacked the seat and symbol of mankind`s biggest democracy.

India`s government will and should lose faith with its people and with the free world if it doesn`t not exact punishment from those responsible.

In this war between terror and civilization there is simply no fence where you can sit: either you are for freedom or you`re for terror. And while indigineous Kashmiris may count as freedom fighers, the mercenaries and their supporters are just that: mercenaries.

Friends of South Asia are organizing a peace vigil on Monday, December 31st at 9 P.M. at Cesar Chavez Park, downtown San Jose.

[On Market Street, in front of the Fairmont Hotel where ``Christmas in the Park`` is held.).

Peace-loving people from all races, religions, and walks of life are requested to attend the vigil. Over 200 people are expected. Please bring candles and pickets.

Background:

The growing tensions in South Asia are jeopardizing the lives of the people that live in India, Pakistan, and the surrounding countries -- more than a fifth of humanity. In a war between those two countries there will be no winners and some sure losers: the people, the environment, and the planet.

War in South Asia is not a concern for South Asians alone. It is the responsibility of rational, reasonable people around the globe to join hands and prevent what can very easily become the apocalypse we have been dodging since Hiroshima.

Friends of South Asia appeal to the leaders of India and Pakistan to avoid war and settle all issues through dialogue. We appeal to the US government and other World leaders to do all in their power to prevent the unthinkable.

Friends of South Asia: 408 265 2795

http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?size=big&mapdata=xU4YXdELrnDxrYh%2f88spp1nvGZ1WIxkoe4NQE7YEmf9FS8pPWu5jpRwUYdf%2fEYkUBQohF16nnncUOQnIgn%2f59RArwHgV7yBpUT9pJYgYogCqTgVfDEtc1nkNWq1fSTHfZhg6wX13TcDTQOENBxONAjeh0joSXEwJjS%2b9hnwyo0DUOm2jiUVyIoWtCUt%2b%2b2pB%2fjkP0dZR9AcpWlHb1NFerNgqpKcWxIaVrnFQd0tz907yt56RAWWu243m8Iyuu3o4qkf9Do73PgrUzOzwFN%2bSHAMlYI38BgRUNJwnF854rcNc08%2fW04HE5QLkzuZFs3ncEuV%2fc3FlOg3ANzFvAExi6DJb%2fMj41pdpQWVRc0VPD62zTxJ57URniQ%3d%3d

Farzana

``We, the people, want to know why we are being stopped from loving others only because they come from a different country and religion. We want to know why we have to be a part of the war against terrorism but we cannot fight against the terror of always being expected to say the right things. We want to know why Muslims in India have to behave like loyal dogs when they are being asked to find their own utopia.``

Another pathetic play for the pak galleries. Just go and join the APHC, the great leaders of that organisation are really the lovers of another country. Dont forget, they refused to talk to the indian government, but the embiciles of delhi had no problem in allowing the APHC to talk to the mushy when he came to agra.

Another gutless senseless para graph, go and join the APHC and re-write it. be a lover of another country, be the loyal dogs of the land of the pure, and you can still remain in india.

Farzana:

I must let you in on the prevalent discussions in the so-called elite society to which I am supposed to belong. When the bomb blasts happened after the Bombay riots, there were any number of people, and I am talking about those from the majority community, who said, “If they had to do this, they should have targeted Mantralaya (the seat of government in the city) and we would have all been happy.”

Me: Taking pot shots at politicians has always been a part of any evening political discussion. To jump from that to saying that the people are actually okay with terrorist attacks on parliament is a real stretch.

Farzana: They entered Parliament. They managed to get a sneak look into the House .

Me: Kudos to the security forces and the Vice President`s convoy. These guys were not tourists. Besides, lets not minimize the bravery of those officers who died in protecting the seat of our democracy. Further, Pakistan should count itself lucky too. If these guys actually killed Indian leaders- then there would have been far less posturing. The war would have already begun. Currently, the Indians are being most restrained- by waiting to see if political pressure works. Most countries would have not taken that extra step.

Farzana: At this point in time, the man to be pitied the most is General Pervez Musharraf. He will be held indirectly responsible for anything that happens in our subcontinent.

Me: Really? This is the guy who is responsible for Kargil too. He thought that venture was productive, after a duly elected PM of Pakistan(I know they don`t give a hoot about elections over there) negotiated with an elected PM of India, and came up with a framework for discussing bilateral issues including J&K. Contrast that with the supposed ``war monger``, Vajpayee, who made that bus ride to Lahore. The bottom line is neither Pakistan nor any Middle Eastern country has ever negotiated any political agreement without a war preceding it.

Farzana:Why am I bringing the Indian Muslims into this? Because immediately after listening to the news, I got a call and the only question was, “So, will there be problems for us now? Any riots?

Me: If one phone call and a show on Zee tv is enough to get you excited then so be it. But then you are doing the same thing as the caller did. One phone call - and the entire majority community is type cast. Now, the caller probably gets to see your work in print. The theme of which is pity Musharaff, the guys who attacked parliament were Indians- nah, couldn`t have been Pakistan... coupled with a ``why can`t we all get along?``, and suddenly other viewers reading this could say..``Hmm..maybe the guy who called you had a point.`` Two can play the provocative game. :-).

Reply Harimau #5

Transition begs.

*clash!!!! *

svaha

harimau #5:

You might find it interesting that Farzana herself a Gujarati Muslim is (or was, not sure) married to a Gujarati Jain guy.

Satyavadi