Borders are Made of These

ANOTHER YEAR OF SHAME

We should be ashamed to even wish anyone happy new year when there are 10s of millions of people whose new years resolution is just to stay alive in the face of shameless persecution, blatant disregard for citizenship rights, and complete disrespect for their right to live. I am talking about the millions of helpless Kashmiris who are living a life of torture and fear for the past 55 years under the shameless Indian Occupation. For the past 12 years since the Disturbed Area Act of 1990 was enacted in Indian Oppressed Kashmir the life and the honor of of a Kashmiri man and woman is worth no more the cost of a bullet of an assault rifle of the occupational Hindu Army. The year 2001 and all the years before that for the past 55 years are the years of shame for the 850 million badmash Hindus who have trouble showing respect for human life. One can only wish hell for them and their country where people are without shame, full of hate, and are warmongers. How can we offer them best of wishes when they are hell bent on annihilating our very existence. Baygairat Hinduo, Hindu kay chamcho, aur karcho, kafgiro listen and listen good- peace only comes with justice; peace comes with giving people their citizenship rights and not by taking them away, peace comes when state machinery protects people and not used to exterminate them, peace comes when people are given the right to speak and not by breaking their bones in your military torture cells, peace comes when a soldier dies for the honor of a woman and not when whole platoon rapes them, peace comes when you accept your neighbors’ right to live and not threaten to invade them, peace comes with honesty and self respect and not by throwing dirt on other people’s religion and their ideals. So Hindus! Let me tell you this new years day that I hate you. I wish you death. I wish you eternal misery. I wish you everlasting hate. I wish you bubonic plagues. And I wish you the same pain and misery upon your women and children that you inflict on Kashmiris without thinking that they are humans first. -the kashmiris towards whose misery the world is blind..

I would request all peace loving human beings including those Hindus who know in their heart that what they are doing is not worthy of a decent human being but do not find enough courage to call a spade a spade, to dedicate this year to the plight of helpless Kashmiris. Let us pray that this year, the year 2002 brings them freedom, independence, dignity and life. Let us join hands to return them their right to live, prosper and be safe.

Dear Farzana

I would say that it was an extremely good right up-fair and clear- made me once again envious of the fact that why such a fair liberal mind is not on our side. The feeling remained until at the end when I read the following:

[Yes, I have always taken extreme positions, but today I have only one small prayer to offer that unseen god of small things: Please keep me on the fence. From here I shall make my own borders – that hazy line where the sky meets the sea.]

There is a limit, and when that limit is reached, it is a crime sitting on the fence-and that limit is when your own government fires first bullet on its own people; the limit is reached when state machinery is used to exterminate people and the majority not only watches it from the fence but also applauds it. This is the limit of human decency. Time to jump the fence.

Correction

``I would say that it was an extremely good right up``

is

``I would say that it was an extremely good write up``

Its all Bill Gates` fault

FROM:

www.jews-for-allah/muslims-against-terrorism.

Lest we forget.For auld lang syne!

__________________________________________________

Secularism Spread by the Sword

Christianity and Islam have been criticized in the past as religions spread by the sword.

Even though Jesus and Allah taught Peace and Tolerance, some misguided individuals have used religion as an excuse to commit violence upon others.

The Christian crusades and the Muslim jihads committed in the name of God have left a tarnish on both religions.

Today, we are in the midst of the deadliest religion of them all, Secularism. This religion is slashing it`s swords, shooting it`s bullets, and dropping it`s bombs world wide to convert nations near and far into adherence.

This religion opposes all religions of the past, insisting on separating Synagogue, Church, and Mosque alike from their respective States. This religion`s God is not called Yahweh, Jesus, or Allah, his name is ``dollar``.

Secularism hides behind other religions, disguising itself as Zionism, Democracy and Arab nationalism, yet eliminating the very core Faith and way of life that beautifies the Abrahamic religions.

Founded in 1858 by Charles Bradlaugh, a Sunday preacher turned atheist, it`s fundamental beliefs are (The improvement of this life by material means [Capitalism]), and (Whether there be other good or not, the good of the present life is good, and it is good to seek that good`` [English Secularism, 35]).

The often overlooked consequences of secularism is venereal diseases, legalized prostitution [Los Vegas, Navada], teenage pregnancies out of wed lock, suicide, alcoholism, and teenage rebellion [Columbine High School killings], all at their highest rates in the world`s most secularist country.

Today`s most infamous Secularist missionary is America, threatening and imposing death on nations world wide to either secularize or face their sword (sanctions, bombing campaigns, military coups).

Ever since the United States Army massacred 300 Lakotas in 1890, American

forces have spread Secularism by force elsewhere around the globe 100 times. Indeed the United States has sent troops abroad or militarily struck other countries` territory 216 times.

Since World War II, the United States actually dropped bombs on 23 countries. These include: China 1945-46, Korea 1950-53, China 1950-53, Guatemala 1954, Indonesia 1958, Cuba 1959-60, Guatemala 1960, Congo 1964, Peru 1965, Laos 1964-73, Vietnam 1961-73, Cambodia 1969-70, Guatemala 1967-69, Grenada 1983, Lebanon 1984, Libya 1986, El Salvador 1980s, Nicaragua 1980s, Panama 1989, Iraq 1991-1999, Sudan 1998, Afghanistan 1998, and Yugoslavia 1999.

Post World War II, the United States has also assisted in over 20 different coups throughout the world, and the CIA was responsible for half a dozen assassinations of non-Secularist political heads of state.

The following is a comprehensive summary of the Secularization strategy of the United States over the span of the past century:

Argentina - 1890 - Troops sent to Buenos Aires to protect Secular interests.

Chile - 1891 - Marines sent to Chile and clashed with nationalist rebels.

Haiti - 1891 - American troops suppress a revolt by Black workers on United States-claimed Navassa Island.

Hawaii - 1893 - Navy sent to Hawaii to overthrow the independent kingdom - Hawaii annexed by the United States.

Nicaragua - 1894 - Troops occupied Bluefields, a city on the Caribbean Sea, for a month.

China - 1894-95 - Navy, Army, and Marines landed during the Sino-Japanese War.

Korea - 1894-96 - Troops kept in Seoul during the war.

Panama - 1895 - Army, Navy, and Marines landed in the port city of Corinto.

China - 1894-1900 - Troops occupied China during the Boxer Rebellion.

Philippines - 1898-1910 - Navy and Army troops landed after the Philippines fell during the Spanish-American War; 600,000 Filipinos were killed.

Cuba - 1898-1902 - Troops seized Cuba in the Spanish-American War; the United States still

maintains troops at Guantanamo Bay today.

Puerto Rico - 1898 - present - Troops seized Puerto Rico in the Spanish-American War and still occupy Puerto Rico today.

Nicaragua - 1898 - Marines landed at the port of San Juan del Sur.

Samoa - 1899 - Troops landed as a result over the battle for succession to the throne.

Panama - 1901-14 - Navy supported the revolution when Panama claimed independence from Colombia. American troops have occupied the Canal Zone since 1901 when construction for the canal began.

Honduras - 1903 - Marines landed to intervene during a revolution.

Dominican Rep 1903-04 - Troops landed to protect American interests during a revolution.

Korea - 1904-05 - Marines landed during the Russo-Japanese War.

Cuba - 1906-09 - Troops landed during an election.

Nicaragua - 1907 - Troops landed and a protectorate was set up.

Honduras - 1907 - Marines landed during Honduras` war with Nicaragua.

Panama - 1908 - Marines sent in during Panama`s election.

Nicaragua - 1910 - Marines landed for a second time in Bluefields and Corinto.

Honduras - 1911 - Troops sent in to protect American interests during Honduras` civil war.

China - 1911-41 - Navy and troops sent to China during continuous flare-ups.

Cuba - 1912 - Troops sent in to protect American interests in Havana.

Panama - 1912 - Marines landed during Panama`s election.

Honduras - 1912 - Troops sent in to protect American interests.

Nicaragua - 1912-33 - Troops occupied Nicaragua and fought guerrillas during its 20-year civil war.

Mexico - 1913 - Navy evacuated Americans during revolution.

Dominican Rep 1914 - Navy fought with rebels over Santo Domingo.

Mexico - 1914-18 - Navy and troops sent in to intervene against nationalists.

Haiti - 1914-34 - Troops occupied Haiti after a revolution and occupied Haiti for 19 years.

Dominican Rep 1916-24 - Marines occupied the Dominican Republic for eight years.

Cuba - 1917-33 - Troops landed and occupied Cuba for 16 years; Cuba became an economic protectorate.

World War I - 1917-18 - Navy and Army sent to Europe to fight the Axis powers.

Russia - 1918-22 - Navy and troops sent to eastern Russia after the Bolshevik Revolution; Army made five landings.

Honduras - 1919 - Marines sent during Honduras` national elections.

Guatemala - 1920 - Troops occupied Guatemala for two weeks during a union strike.

Turkey - 1922 - Troops fought nationalists in Smyrna.

China - 1922-27 - Navy and Army troops deployed during a nationalist revolt.

Honduras - 1924-25 - Troops landed twice during a national election.

Panama - 1925 - Troops sent in to put down a general strike.

China - 1927-34 - Marines sent in and stationed for seven years throughout China.

El Salvador - 1932 - Naval warships deployed during the FMLN revolt under Marti.

World War II - 1941-45 - Military fought the Axis powers: Japan, Germany, and Italy.

Yugoslavia - 1946 - Navy deployed off the coast of Yugoslavia in response to the downing of an American plane.

Uruguay - 1947 - Bombers deployed as a show of military force.

Greece - 1947-49 - United States operations insured a victory for the far right in national ``elections.``

Germany - 1948 - Military deployed in response to the Berlin blockade; the Berlin airlift lasts 444 days.

Philippines - 1948-54 - The CIA directed a civil war against the Filipino Huk revolt.

Puerto Rico - 1950 - Military helped crush an independence rebellion in Ponce.

Korean War - 1951-53 - Military sent in during the war.

Iran - 1953 - The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah to power.

Vietnam - 1954 - The United States offered weapons to the French in the battle against Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh.

Guatemala - 1954 - The CIA overthrew the democratically elected Arbenz and placed Colonel Armas in power.

Egypt - 1956 - Marines deployed to evacuate foreigners after Nasser nationalized the Suez Canal.

Lebanon - 1958 - Navy supported an Army occupation of Lebanon during its civil war.

Panama - 1958 - Troops landed after Panamanians demonstrations threatened the Canal Zone.

Vietnam - 1950s-75 - Vietnam War.

Cuba - 1961 - The CIA-directed Bay of Pigs invasions failed to overthrow the Castro government.

Cuba - 1962 - The Navy quarantines Cuba during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Laos - 1962 - Military occupied Laos during its civil war against the Pathet Lao guerrillas.

Panama - 1964 - Troops sent in and Panamanians shot while protesting the United States presence in the Canal Zone.

Indonesia - 1965 - The CIA orchestrated a military coup.

Dominican Rep- 1965-66 - Troops deployed during a national election.

Guatemala - 1966-67 - Green Berets sent in.

Cambodia - 1969-75 - Military sent in after the Vietnam War expanded into Cambodia.

Oman - 1970 - Marines landed to direct a possible invasion into Iran.

Laos - 1971-75 - Americans carpet-bomb the countryside during Laos` civil war.

Chile - 1973 - The CIA orchestrated a coup, killing President Allende who had been popularly elected. The CIA helped to establish a military regime under General Pinochet.

Cambodia - 1975 - Twenty-eight Americans killed in an effort to retrieve the crew of the Mayaquez, which had been seized.

Angola - 1976-92 - The CIA backed South African rebels fighting against Marxist Angola.

Libya - 1981 - American fighters shoot down two Libyan fighters.

El Salvador - 1981-92 - The CIA, troops, and advisers aid in El Salvador`s war against the FMLN.

Nicaragua - 1981-90 - The CIA and NSC directed the Contra War against the Sandinistas.

Lebanon - 1982-84 - Marines occupied Beirut during Lebanon`s civil war; 241 were killed in the American barracks and Reagan ``redeployed`` the troops to the Mediterranean.

Honduras - 1983-89 - Troops sent in to build bases near the Honduran border.

Grenada - 1983-84 - American invasion overthrew the Maurice Bishop government.

Iran - 1984 - American fighters shot down two Iranian planes over the Persian Gulf.

Libya - 1986 - American fighters hit targets in and around the capital city of Tripoli.

Bolivia - 1986 - The Army assisted government troops on raids of cocaine areas.

Iran - 1987-88 - The United States intervened on the side of Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War.

Libya - 1989 - Navy shot down two more Libyan jets.

Virgin Islands - 1989 - Troops landed during unrest among Virgin Island peoples.

Philippines - 1989 - Air Force provided air cover for government during coup.

Panama - 1989-90 - 27,000 Americans landed in overthrow of President Noriega; over 2,000 Panama civilians were killed.

Liberia - 1990 - Troops entered Liberia to evacuate foreigners during civil war.

Saudi Arabia - 1990-91 - American troops sent to Saudi Arabia, which was a staging area in the war against Iraq.

Kuwait - 1991 - Troops sent into Kuwait to turn back Saddam Hussein.

Somalia - 1992-94 - Troops occupied Somalia during civil war.

Bosnia - 1993-95 - Air Force jets bombed ``no-fly zone`` during civil war in Yugoslavia.

Haiti - 1994-96 - American troops and Navy provided a blockade against Haiti`s military government. The CIA restored Aristide to power.

Zaire - 1996-97 - Marines sent into Rwanda Hutus` refugee camps in the area where the Congo revolution began.

Albania - 1997 - Troops deployed during evacuation of foreigners.

Sudan - 1998 - American missiles destroyed a pharmaceutical complex where alleged nerve gas components were manufactured.

Afghanistan - 1998 - Missiles launched towards alleged Afghan terrorist training camps.

Yugoslavia - 1999 - Bombings and missile attacks carried out by the United States in conjunction with NATO in the 11 week war against Milosevic.

Iraq - 1998-2001 - Missiles launched into Baghdad and other large Iraq cities for four days. American jets enforced ``no-fly zone`` and continued to hit Iraqi targets since December 1998.

In conclusion, the Secularist`s intolerance towards other belief systems and cultures have terrorized the entire world and left carnage and corruption from it`s efforts to convert the world.

Peace

#: 35

mumbhai

Immediately after the americans started bombing afghanistan, we saw imam of jama masjib in delhi and other muslim organizations carry out a morcha in support of Bin Laden.

We never see any morcha from any Muslim party against the ISI backed attacks on the Indian parliament.

I wonder why ?

........................

Mumbai

If you or your P.M. is MAN enough let him post the evidence of involvement of whoever they say did it first.

World is now NOT gullible & naive to take all the SH!T from any govt.

``Peace`` vigil in San Jose:

I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:

1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan. Rest of the people present there were pretending as if they were representing American Indian voices too. They could not even bring any of their Indian friends (if they have any). Carrying the Indian flag they wanted to pretend to passing by people that they were mixture of Indians and Pakis.. This thing was really deceptive.

2. There was not a single mention of terrorism in the placards. As if to say that there is a war to start in South Asia out of blue, may be just because Indians and Pakis hate each other. Basically agenda rather than ``peace`` was ``save pakistan``.

3. I had a poster criticizing ``military dictatorships`` and saying ``Indians and Pakis are one``, I was accused of being ``divisive``, ``anti-peace`` and ``with hidden agenda``. So I guess another agenda was ``save mr. musharraf`` and keep floating the theory that muslim-hindu are separate people.

4. One of the organizer tried to read some crappy article from WPost basically whose import was ``hey Indians are basically Hindus and India-Pak difference is between hindus and muslims..``. When will Pakis start looking at the census figures. Sorry to break the news guys. For decades in India more muslims live than in Pakistan and even so more peacefully than any where, with more democratic rights than anywhere. So please stop giving BS that India-Pak dispute is abt Hindu-Muslim.

5. It seems organizers had special affinity to ``two nation theory``. The basic point was even if a nation is attacked and engaged in proxy wars for years, it should still maintain ``peace``. I Wonder organizers ever called for peace when innocent people get butchered by terrorists. Only when there is talk of retaliation from India, it seems they hear their scared relatives in Pakistan and then come out to talk about ``peace``.

6. Also common goal of meeting organizer was to beg Mr Bush to do some thing about South Asia. This shows how much ``peace`` they can achieve from this Bush the ``messiah of peace``.

Ok guys lick the * *lls of Bush or whoever powerful you can find around the world to save your terrorist regime or jehadi brothers.

But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it. I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected, but we do need to respond to this fascist evil scourge of Jehadism and free our Paki brothers from it too. So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.

Well founder of ``Chowk.com`` was also there. I complemented him on having a great website. Hope he does not completely share the views of rest of the organizers.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Shammiji;

WOW. What a small world this is. Subhan-Allah.

Anny;

LOL

Dear Farzana,

A thought provoking article.

In order to appreciate how majority Indian (who happen to be hindus)feel, you have to put yourself in their place. India is at war with Pak because of ideological differences. India is a secular, democratic country while Pakistan is an islamic theocracy. You seem to be suffering from the same identity crisis as Pakistan suffers from. After 50 years of existing, Pakistan,thanks to its despotic rulers, is in a hell-hole. It will require an Indian rope trick to extricate itself from this hole.

You seem to be more preoccupied with your muslim identity when most Indians, who are shocked at the recent attack on the parliament.

``Now, Mr. L.K.Advani says it was a fidayeen attack, if they could do this in the USA, then why not us? But, there were air strikes on the Pentagon and Twin Towers – here you had these fellows driving in, coming out of their vehicles and managing to get close to three gates. And they were just five men. Anyone who has visited Parliament, and I have, knows that there is a huge security cordon at all times and more so when Parliament is in session.``

Your quote above from your article seems to suggest that the attack on the parliament was staged. Let me ask you a point blank question: Do you think it was staged?

Millions of Indians, Indian and international media do not think this was staged. There was a genuine outcry. Attack on the Indian parliament was a symbolic attack as well as a well planned but poorly executed one. Terrorists struck at the very root of India`s democracy. We were lucky they did not succeed in their objectives.

``Whatever happened to the good old days when poor innocents were shot down in the crossfire?``

What kind of balloney is this? And i thought you are a responsible journalist. If terrorists are targetting parliament and other institutions, it either means they are either getting bolder or they are desperate, make your pick. They continue to target innocents. If you have been reading newspapers (which as a journalist you should)i presume you would have read massacre of civilians that continue unabated. Were the people who died in the attack on parliament not innocent people.

``And does it strike the PM that among these 100 crore people, some are indeed terrorists themselves? Or is it only the Taliban and the Pakistanis that are creating havoc? For god’s sake, we even have an American who fought alongside the Taliban. What about the JKLF? The Naxalites? The ULFA? All Indians.``

Yes, sure. There are many terrorists among Indians too. Our war with Pak is, as i said, one of ideology. Kashmir is only a symptom. Pakistan, has used terrorism as a soft option. If Kashmir were the only issue, you would not have Pak based terrorist groups targetting outside Kashmir. And you would not have the Kashmiri agenda for self-determination hijacked by non-Kashmiris. For God`s sake, the American Taliban (forgetting his name)has confessed to being trained by Taliban in Afghanistan and taken part in terrorism in Kashmir). So, Pak ruler`s agenda is much wider. If you believe in India (as i do)you will see how diagramatically opposite we both countries are.

ULFA, Naxalite are a fall out of political problems. If they adopt violent means, they need to be tackled the way we are tackling terrorism in Kashmir. There is no other way. Besides, there are reports that i have read about ISI supporting ULFA. During Kargil, such a nexus came to surface.

You seem to have a cynical attitude to Indian democracy. Despite faults, Indian democracy works. Name one country from Saudi Arabia to Indonesia (except Bangladesh and Israel perhaps)that is a democracy. You see my point. India is a great experiment. This expt is worth preserving and improving upon.

The hindu-muslim riots that happened in the past have been politically engineered by Congress most of the time. They have often gotten political mileage. By espousing a pseudo-secular image, they have done a lot of harm to muslims in India. BJP is no better. Muslims need to fight these communal tendencies, by democratic means. As Indians they have a unique opportunity to do this in a peaceful and democratic fashion. Riots in Bombay following blasts were engineered by Shiv Sena. This party is on political decline. They target muslims only because that was politically beneficial (in the beginning, they actually started out targetting South Indians). Not anymore. The same party burnt a hospital in Thane following death of a party heavyweight who was being treated there. Need i say more. Zealots, extremists have no religion. They just make use of religion for their nefarious designs. Both OBL and Bal Thackeray belong to the same category. The difference is: while former has a much wider appeal among the muslim ummah, the latter has few takers outside Maharashtra.

``Besides, it is not even my ideology. I do not believe in fighting a battle on borrowed ideas. My enemies are only those who want to rob me of my identity, wherever they are.``

Again that identity crisis. Let me tell you something. All my life i have been a minority. Born in a brahmin family in south when we were hated (at a time when Dravidian movement peaked in the 60s), we found a place in tolerant Delhi among Punjabees (who were and still are some of the greatest people i have met, God bless them). Still, as South Indian madrasees, we were a minority. Now, in USA, as an NRI, i am a minority. All along i had to prove myself. There are many other Indians with similar stories.

Farzana, YOu have to come out of this minority complex and view yourself as an Indian. If Shiv Sena has been unkind to muslims in Bombay, DMK has been unkind to brahmins in Tamil Nadu. Similar stories abound everywhere. That is why we have to forget what our religion or caste is and view ourselves as Indians. Once you do that, you are no more a minority. This feeling of minority is in thought only.

In the end, this is a fight against the evil of terrorism. BJP, like any other party would take political mileage out of it. POTO may get passed. BJP may reap rich harvests in UP and Punjab. Still, democracy will flourish if this evil of terrorism is eliminated once for all.

In the end, i hope Musharraf sees wisdom and joins this fight against terrorism. Our fight against terrorists need not involve Pakistan if they do not support these terrorists from their soil.

Sridhar

re: anNy

{pardon my curiosity and prying but are you by any chance madly in love?}

noooo...never...`cept with myself

{youre being way too nice to people ure usually terribly nasty to (not that its a bad thing)}

it`s part of an evil trick to beguile them :)

{have a great new year and smile lots :)}

thanks, you too

re: ali

{I think Indian minorities should join hands with each other and with Pakistan to hasten the demise of this inhuman Brahmin-Banya Raj in India.}

yeah, happy new year to you too ali

Farzana,

Excellent piece. I will be addressing some interesting themes you brought up at a later time.

regards

Re: Urstruly

“…One can only wish hell for them and their country…So Hindus! Let me tell you this new years day that I hate you. I wish you death. I wish you eternal misery. I wish you everlasting hate. I wish you bubonic plagues…”

Urstruly, thanks. I wish nothing but the best for a happy and prosperous new year! Kind regards

My dear Shammi Mian:

What a small world. Ah that Gruduwara road. We used to live by the side of the Musjid. Yes, Zakir Saheb was our neighbor, and a friend of my MamooN -- who was a professor in Tibbia College. They moved to Lahore after ‘47.



In fact I and my cousin -- as 9 and 10 year old boys -- used to frequent Zakir Saheb`s house – we had a crush on his daughter who was 5 – 6 year older than us!

Fatimah that name sounds familiar – was she associated with Karol Bagh Jamia Millia.

Shammi mian we have to get together one day – ah those childhood memories – some unpleasant but so many more of them so pleasant -- they always drowned the unpleasant ones.

Happy New Year my dear friend.

Drumz #136 I agree that instead of following mullahs and ulema like sheep, we have a responsibility to think for ourselves, and to think as clearly and logically as we can. And this is precisely what the Quran encourages when it stresses relying on our own senses and not looking towards other men for guidance. As the Quran notes, ``Allah will ask you on the Judgement Day ``Where are those men now to whom you looked for instruction?``.

Our problem in Pakistan is that the education system (at least in the government college and Panjab University that I attended) kills any self-confidence that the student has in thinking for himself, and provides very little emphasis on understanding one`s assumptions and drawing logical conclusions. Learning is by rote, opinions are those of other men that they have to also memorize and not their own. In madrassahs, of course, this dysfunctional education system is taken to an extreme and the output is ``extreme sheep`` who will kill innocent people without having the courage to question the evil nature of the act.

#33 tahmed

I`d like to sing a world a song

in perfect harmony

I`d like to buy the world a coke

and keep it company

....

-Not by Drumz

The incomparable Ayaz Amir with his new brutally frank, hard-hitting column.

One thing is sure -- The Freedom of Press is well and alive in Pakistan.

National honour is not on the line

By Ayaz Amir

(Excerpts)

AT times such as these cliches come in handy. Faced with threats from India we should sink our differences, close ranks and rally round the flag and the commander-in-chief. There will be time enough to indulge the luxury of scepticism when the crisis passes.

Precisely such an attitude took us into the folly of the 1965 war and the great tragedy of 1971 when half the country (or was it more than half?) just stood up and (and with no little Indian help) walked away. Patriotism is fine but any false notion of it should be no excuse for pulling down the shutters and refusing to think.

What is the nature of the present heightened state of tension with India?

We are faced with no Indian diktat regarding any aspect of national sovereignty. India, considering the circumstances propitious, is putting pressure on us to close down the `jihadi` outfits which have been waging war (or whatever) in occupied Kashmir.

For close on seven or eight years - that is, since 1994-95 when the Kashmir insurgency started being dominated by outside fighters - we could sustain this policy and get away with it.

After September 11, and after our turnaround on the Taliban, it was for us to realize that the era of outside `jihad` in Kashmir was over.

What we failed to do on our own, we are being forced to do by the pressure of circumstances.

National honour is not on the line.

Only an aspect of national adventurism is being called into question.

What sensible nations cannot sustain, they discard. When Britain could no longer afford to keep its empire it made a graceful exit from its colonies. France held on to its colonies long after it had the strength or ability to do so. The result was defeat in Vietnam (Dien Bien Phu) and rivers of blood in Algeria. The analogy does not quite fit but the conclusion is clear. Clinging to a prize that is slipping from one`s grasp is no sign of cleverness.

What does `Pakistan first` - the slogan raised by the Musharraf government in the first flush of its turnaround on Afghanistan - mean? If anything, it means that we should look to our own house and eschew foreign adventures.

If this piece of priceless wisdom was relevant to Afghanistan, why not to Kashmir?



We have been involved in occupied Kashmir for long. The world has come to know this in part because we blew our own disguise.

Organizations like the Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mushammad had a free run of the entire country, holding rallies and easily collecting funds and recruits.



India has not invented the substance of the charges against the Lashkar or Jaish. It has merely used and exploited the evidence we ourselves had accumulated.

After all, since when were covert wars allowed to have an overt face? But since the great policy-masters of Pakistan - stretching from GHQ to ISI -allowed this to happen, they are the authors of their own misfortune.

Nor was this simply a question of our cover being blown.

Our forward policy in Kashmir was already becoming unsustainable.

After September 11 we should have done some fast thinking and clamped down on the `jihadi` outfits ourselves without waiting for circumstances to catch up with us. But we let the moment pass and so, after Afghanistan, another turnaround is being forced on us.

Thank God for US help here too.



By outlawing the Lashkar and Jaish it has made it easier for us to take action against these two organisations.



From the US we can take anything. But from India nothing. And why should we?



The only problem is we keep putting ourselves in untenable positions - as in 1965, in 1971 and as indeed during the Kargil affair in 1999.



We say India is the great enemy. But if enmity be measured by injuries inflicted, we have harmed ourselves more than anything India could have done.

As for the present crisis, how strangely flat-footed in it we have been.

_________________________________________________

We failed to appreciate the gravity of the attack on the Lok Sabha and the outrage it triggered in India.

__________________________________________________

Some of the initial statements made by some of our officials could have been avoided. And what occasion for President Musharraf to say that India was being ``arrogant`` in recalling its high commissioner from Islamabad? Strong words ill-suited to the situation.

Now the pressure is all from the Indian side while we are at the receiving end.

Washington is trying to calm subcontinental nerves but it is being quite unambiguous in telling Pakistan to close down the machinery of Kashmiri `jihad`.

Once again it is we who are twisting in the wind.

But this is one twisting that should be seen as necessary penance for past folly.

The most difficult operation in war is a graceful retreat.



This in peacetime is what we are being called upon to execute: a graceful exit from our unsustainable posture in Kashmir.



First Afghanistan, now Kashmir. Such are the hard lessons we are having to learn.

The talons we had spread in all directions we are being called upon to draw in.

A good thing that this is taking place under the strategic umbrella of the US or else the pain would have been excruciating.



But if this physical withdrawal is to mean anything it has to be accompanied by an ideological retraction in the army command and the intelligence agencies operating under its wings.

The days of external adventurism are over. Time to look inwards at our domestic plate.

On top of any domestic agenda must come the re-education of the ISI. It must look to its essential task of gathering intelligence and countering foreign espionage and abandon politics and foreign policy, the two fields it has completely messed up. This is a tall order but one which must be fulfilled if the moves in Kashmir and Afghanistan are to make any sense.

Secondly, the army has to redefine its role in national life. Will it rule the roost and intervene at will in political matters or will it allow the political process to find its bearings over a period of time?

True, politicians have made their mistakes and paid dearly for them. But it is the overbearing presence of the military which has retarded and distorted the political process.



There is nothing wrong with the soil or air of Pakistan. Or indeed with its people, who, apart from a tendency to suffer fools in high places, have their eyes in the right direction. It is simply a problem of leadership which has cast shadows over a land that could easily be happy and prosperous.(DAWN)

Bless you Ayaz Amir!

There will be -- NO Terrorism - No War -- between India and Pakistan -- in 2002 -- Inshaallah.

India Cooling Pakistan War Rhetoric

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20020101/wl/india_pakistan_83.html

Seems like the dhoti-clad banyas are running from battle again.... much like what their ancestors have done for the past 5000 years.

Reply # 48 chandan



[``I attended the ``peace`` vigil held in San Jose. Following were the salient features:

1. I was the only Indian ``present`` there. Everyone else was from Pakistan.``]

I didn`t attend this rally, since I will only attend the one which will be held to celebrate India`s complete annhilation. However, from what I have heard about the vigil, this watery stool pigeon is lying. There were many more Indians than Pakistanis in this vigil.

Chandan, probably you were the only Indian in RSS shorts? Also, dou you think all Indians wear polyester dress pants with chappals?

[``But let me tell you if you expect India would behave cowardly just to give ``peace`` to terrorists, forget it.``]

Everyone expects India behave cowardly because thats your heritage and your history.

[``I dont care abt holocaust, even if all my near and dear ones might get affected``]

It seems like you are actually looking forward to the holocaust. So what was the point in going to the ``peace`` vigil, you samosabottom?

[``So yearn for the final war, so that your dear ones back in Desh have future in peace and prosperity.``]

Why haven`t your chicken hearted cowardly leaders started the ``final`` war yet? Don`t they care for their people`s prosperity? Or are you guys stockpiling on cowdung for the famine ahead?

A very happy New Year with four specimens of love and hate,class and crass all from our own Chowk.

dost-mittar

Kitnay shirin hain teray lab kay aei raqeeb

Gaaliyan kha kay bemazaa naa hua...

Navaan saal mubaarak. Dhuaada tay dhuaaday ghar waaliyann da rab raakha

Urstruly

“…So Hindus! Let me tell you this new years day that I hate you. I wish you death. I wish you eternal misery. I wish you everlasting hate. I wish you bubonic plagues…”

Shammi

``Urstruly, thanks. I wish nothing but the best for a happy and prosperous new year! Kind regard``

audio-video-radio

`` It is time to put dundaa in Pakistan`s G-nd and push it hard. This is the only language these guys will understand. Gaanduu.``

With best regards.

re urstruly # 43

Keep up that language and liturgy and soon Kashmiris will have the same regard for Pakistani `help` as the Afghans do.

Indian Occupied Kashmir has an assembly which elects its chief minister; a Kashmiri is India`s state minister for Foreign Affairs; India generally does not allow non-Kashmiris to move into its J&K. Every draconian law imposed by India is thoroughly vetted by her parliament and her Army`s actions (as brutal as they are) called into question in public forums.

By comparison, the Pakistani Occupied Kashmir has assembly which follows military orders as to who to elect or depose as `prime minister`; Kashmiris are rarely found in Punjabi dominated upper echelons (even the so-called Azad KAshmir regiment is made up of non-Kashmiris just like the Sind regiment is full of Baluchis and Punjabis). THe laws applying to Pakistani Occupied Kashmir are often legal siblings and offspring of the Frontier Crimes Regulations or the attached schedules to the Indian Independence Act of 1947. THere is no restriction of Pakistanis moving into and living in Muzaffarabad and no parliament to scritinize the activity of any Pakistani agency, army, or official.

No wonder that the shrillest shrieks of Pakistan`s establishment have little, if any effect, on the world`s general indifference to the plight of Kashmiris.

There will be -- NO Terrorism - No War -- between India and Pakistan -- in 2002 -- Inshaallah.



JAMMU: An infant and an eight-year-old boy were among the six persons of a Hindu family killed in a gruesome massacre by Lashkar-e-Taiba militants in a village in the border district of Poonch, official sources said on Tuesday

Great start for 2002. Isnt it. No one shedding tears for these people. Impotent Indian leaders thinking about ``talks``. Terrorist back to their business of killing innocents in order to maintain their fear and credibility. I know some of you might jump, hey this must be work of Indian agencies otherwise why would any ``freedom-fighting`` jehadi do this, this will hurt the movement itself. Utter BS, terrorist`s main job is to terrorize, thats what they do. I think they must have been thinking, heck too much blemish on reputation of Lashkar and Jaish. Why not reinforce their reputation and let people know that all Paki military is doing is sham and drama for rest of the world and their business will continue unhindered.

Re: Nasah

``...Shammi mian we have to get together one day ...``

We must, one day. I would love to exchange stories. BTW, I checked my diary -- the name of the lady was Sultana Begum (not Fatimah, as I had mentioned earlier). She used to live off Gurudwara Road. Apparently the area used to have a significant muslim population before Partition. Today, that area still has one mosque (near Chhapparwallah Kuan -- if that name means anything to you).

Re: Nasah

``.... We used to live by the side of the Musjid...``

I bet that this masjid is the one near Chapparwallah Kuan. It is still a functioning masjid. Zakir Hussain Sahib used to live off of Abdul Aziz Road in Naiwallah Galli area. (I hope that these names rekindle your memories). I was born in `64, so I know very little about the pre-partition communities. My family elders told me that there were riots there in `47, and that Pandit Nehru came there himself to quell them. BTW, Tibbia College is still going strong!

``Urstruly

I would request all peace loving human beings including those Hindus who know in their heart that what they are doing is not worthy of a decent human being but do not find enough courage to call a spade a spade, to dedicate this year to the plight of helpless Kashmiris.``

Keep shedding those crocodile tears. Just like the ``helpless Afghans``, for whose freedom you guys fought so valiantly, eventually ended up using Pakistanis for target practice, it is only a matter of time that the same is going to happen in Kashmir.

audio-video- #59 It is too early in the year to waste time with you. Buzz off.

dost-mittar #51 happy new year to you too. Glad you appreciated the Auld Lang Syne. You asked about recorded versions: I can send you one very nice rendition that I received via email - I dont know of any way to put it up on chowk, but if you are interested let me know your email and I will send it to you.

soysauce #62 I assume that was a New Year`s Greetings. Best wishes for the New Year to you too.

anNy #39 Thanks, and Best Wishes for 2002 to you too.

Bengali # 67

I thought twice before writing this post because you usually run away without answering any questions that I ask-like for example you didnt answer my ape and peacock post. Then I thought, since you speak your master Hindus tongue so fluently and still kiss their butts so fervently so why not ask another question from you.

You wrote in your post about elections in Indian Oppressed Kashmir, their so-called elected CM, and so-called draconian laws such as Disturbed Area Act due to which 80,000 Kashmiris have lost their lives and countless women raped and children butchered, and how such laws are valid because they are passed by Indian parliament etc. etc. Please explain why the Kashmiri predicament is any different from Bengalis when you say 100s of millions of Bengalis when bengalis had won the elections with majority and still they commited an act of treason; why didnt they kept quiet and waited for their CM; why Kashmiris are supposed to take the dracoinian laws lying down while Bengalis found themselves conveniently commit an act of treason in the face of Martial Law. Why Bengali freedom fight is any differnt from kashmiri-was Bengali struggle really a struggle for freedom in which 100s of millions died according to you or was it the treacorous blood of Mir Jafar and Mir Qasim that made Bengalis act the way they did? Oh I get it, you would say that since India has a democracy and Paksitan had Martial law therfore Bengali struggle was valid but Kashmiri is not. Please then explain to me how Kashmir is not under defacto Martial Law for the past 12 years with the laws such as Disturbed Area Act of 1990? Ok just answer a simple question why Bengalis are not traitors whereas Kashmiris are.

I demand an answer this time and as an avid hindu butt kisser you are the most qualified to do so.

nasah, Shammi, dost-mittar: Here is another article you might enjoy reading.

http://www.sulekha.com/articledesc.asp?cid=160890

WOW!!! WHAT IN THE WORLD HAPPENED TO CNN. CAN`T BELIEVE THIS!



http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/01/01/tully.column/index.html



The wounds of South Asia`s partition

By Mark Tully

After last month`s attack on the Indian Parliament the government declared a war on terrorism and demanded that Pakistan end all support for Kashmiri separatists operating from any territory it controls.

Pakistan has taken some action to curb the separatist groups but India continues to demand more and makes preparations for military action.

Although the Indian government insists that it does not want an armed conflict its aggressive diplomacy and deployment of troops could just provoke that.

Indian television is showing crowds cheering soldiers as they leave their barracks for the front-line.

The newspapers have pictures of tanks and artillery loaded on trains making their way to the border with Pakistan.

Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee speaks of a war against terrorism and refuses to rule out armed combat as a means of waging that war.

But there are voices protesting against the dangers and the futility of war.

At a meeting of leaders of all the parties, which gave broad support to the prime minister, a veteran communist objected to ``ministers talking uninhibitedly about war.``

Dangers of ``saber rattling``

In the Indian Express, Kanti Bajpai, one of India`s most respected scholars of international affairs, has warned those`` infected by war fever`` that they are in danger of ``shaming their government into action which can only lead to disaster.``

Gautam Sen, an academic from the London School of Economics, has written in the daily Hindu of the danger of ``saber-rattling taking over and leading to war.``

The government has upped the anti so far that it is in danger of being bounced into a war, and will find it difficult to pull back unless all its demands are met by Pakistan.

India`s bellicose voice is making it more difficult for President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan to take the measures it is demanding.

He can`t afford to be seen to be acting because of India`s threats.

The risk of warlike noises

All the warlike noises and the risks they carry could lead to military action that would cost India dearly and achieve nothing.

It is not at all clear what military action India could take with any guarantee of success.

The risks are all too clear especially now that both India and Pakistan have nuclear weapons.

A limited objective would be to change the Indian army`s rules of engagement and allow soldiers to cross the line of control in Kashmir to pursue militants who have infiltrated from the Pakistan controlled side.

The snows and winter weather don`t make that an easy option.

Any success would be so limited that it would not satisfy the political aim of the government, which has to show some decisive outcome of the ``war against terrorism,`` it has declared.

Talk of bombing

There is much talk in India of bombing what the Indian government describes as terrorist camps in Pakistan or Pakistan administered Kashmir.

But Pakistan is not Afghanistan, India is not America, and who is to say that the militant Kashmiri separatists are sitting in their camps waiting to be bombed.

This would not be the time of year for India to advance across the line of control in Kashmir to try to expand the territory under its control, and the terrain is in Pakistan`s favor.

An attempt to move across the western border, where India advanced successfully in the 1971 war, could possibly mean capturing territory, which would serve as a bargaining counter in subsequent peace negotiations.

But this would almost certainly lead to all-out war and the danger of nuclear retaliation.

Any of these options, even the most limited, runs the risk of escalation.

As it is no one can rule out the possibility of an accident sparking off a conflagration with the two armies standing eye ball to eye ball along the international border and the line of control in Kashmir.

They exchange fire almost daily across that line. A hot-headed officer leading troops in pursuit of militants over the line of control, an aggressive deployment of armor could cause a panic reaction on the other side.

Wounds of partition

India`s belligerency is not only dangerous if it spills over into military action.

It will prove futile to whoever emerges victorious.

Three wars, and Pakistan`s occupation of terrain on the India side of the line of control in Kashmir in 1999 have shown that there can be no military solution to the Kashmir problem, and war only deepens the other wounds which still fester from partition.

The collapse of Pakistan`s policy in Afghanistan has given Musharraf an opportunity to revise the policy of supporting those he calls freedom fighters in Kashmir.

He has shown signs of willingness to do that. What is needed now is for India to give him space, and to acknowledge that it too needs to do a lot of rethinking about Kashmir.

The problems there can`t all be blamed on Pakistan.

Ref nasah #: 63

[The incomparable Ayaz Amir with his new brutally frank, hard-hitting column.]

Well, how about this from the Friday Times? Maybe now Romair will shut up about the BJP being worse than Pakistan`s fundamentalist religious groups.

Khaled Ahmed`s

A n a l y s i s

The Musharraf government has stated repeatedly that it will not tolerate extremism of the religious organisations. It is more clear about such manifestly terrorist organisations as Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, which it has already banned; and interior minister Moinuddin Haider is outspoken about the extremism of Sipah Sahaba and Tehreek Jafaria. But will the government ban Sipah Sahaba or take action against its seminaries to eliminate what it thinks is extremism? Meanwhile, most leaders of the religious parties are taking `extreme` positions against the government - and some of their leaders are behind bars - without fear of being declared extremists.

Difficulty of defining extremism: The government definitely does not want to accuse the jehadis fighting the war of liberation in Indian Held Kashmir of being extremist. But that does not mean that the leaders of these organisations are not issuing extremist statements. Some of these organisations, like Jaish-e-Muhammad and Harkatul Mujahideen, are both offshoots of Sipah Sahaba and have armed fighters in their ranks that move easily from mother to branch organisations and back. Sipah Sahaba has achieved a dominant position of deployment of armed men in Sindh - most observers still think that the Sipah is dominant in Jhang, Kurram Agency and Northern Areas alone. If the Taliban are a measure of extremism, then all the Deobandi jehadi organisations would have be counted extremist.

One has to confess that the government is most unlikely to take any action against the extremists in Pakistan - mostly because it is difficult to grasp its definition of what is extremism. The easiest way out is to stick the label on to the shia-killers among the religious organisations, but that may not mean that it will go ahead and ban the party and haul up its offending activists. The 90 percent `silent` supporters of the government, who showed that they did not admire the Taliban by not joining the protest marches called by the religious parties, do expect the government to apply the law uniformly to all citizens including the religious and jehadi organisations and eliminate those elements that defy the law. But the government is going to disappoint them all. It will also not take advantage of the international support Pakistan enjoys these days to cleanse the country of religious violence and institutionalised extremist vision of Islam.

Extremism and shariat: One reason Talibanisation spread in Pakistan was the identity between what Mulla Umar wanted to enforce in Afghanistan and that which the ideological state of Pakistan wants to enforce as shariat . There is a general misconception in Pakistan that the Taliban actually put forward a vision of Islam which was alien to Pakistan. The truth of the matter is that the Taliban vision was alien to Afghanistan and was exported to it from Pakistan. The department of Amr bil Maruf , responsible for most of the extreme measures taken in Afghanistan, was actually proposed by the PML government of Nawaz Sharif in its 15th Amendment. The only difference is that Mulla Umar went ahead and implemented what the Pakistani state was first in contemplating. The Council of Islamic Ideology in Pakistan has been recommending institutional reform - for instance the inquisition-like office of Hisba - that would `complete` the ideological state.

It would be interesting to examine the orthodox Islamic view in Pakistan to see if what we have here is less extreme than the extremism of Mulla Umar`s Afghanistan. In the Islamic intellectual tradition the least impressive aspect is the theory of the state. That is not to say that the clergy has not written about the subject. There are in fact half a dozen respectable names that could be mentioned in this field, but the inconvenient truth is that no agreed and practicable vision of an Islamic state has emerged. The one great thinker in this regard has been Pakistan`s Abul Ala Maududi whose work became popular in the entire Islamic world, particularly because of his focus on the formation of the Islamic state. As a thinker he has been most influential in the process of law-making in Pakistan although this influence was wielded by Maududi while he sat in the opposition and criticised what the state was doing for Islamisation, starting in 1949 with the Objectives Resolution.

The idea of the Islamic State: In Maududi`s book Islamic Law and Constitution published by Jamaat Islami in English first in 1955 he expresses the most popular concepts relating to the creation of an Islamic state. The source of law is the sunna which actually encompasses the Quran, the tradition of the Prophet PBUH, the example of the Four Caliphs, and decisions recorded by the great jurists of Islam. Women are allowed participation neither in government nor administration; and the non-Muslims are not accorded full citizenship of the state. Only Muslims can hold the key public offices while the non-Muslims are the zimmi subjects of the state on the payment of a special tax. In his book Political Theory of Islam Maududi envisages a totalitarian state saying `no one can regard his affairs as personal and private. Considered from this aspect the Islamic state bears a kind of resemblance to the fascist and Communist regimes...no doubt the Islamic state is a totalitarian state and comprises within its sphere all departments of life`.

If Pakistan thought it could ignore Maududi`s firm verdict in favour of polygamy in Islam it was quite mistaken. In the post-Zia period all the `reformist` Islamic legislations like those pertaining to Family Laws were set aside by the Federal Shariat Court. The last straw that broke the camel`s back was the abolition of bank interest as riba by the Supreme Court of Pakistan in 1999, something that reformists like Sir Syed Ahmad Khan - regarded as an apostate by the clergy - had ruled as not riba . The Supreme Court may not resist long the groundswell of reaction against the Hanafi tradition of allowing girls to marry without the permission of a wali or male head of he family. Although in Islamic Law and Constitution Maududi had declared that Hanafi law shall be the law of the land in Pakistan, in Purda he asserted that `while marrying, a woman is obliged to obey the head of the family or the guardian and if he objects to her choice she cannot marry that person`. While it is true that Pakistan`s Islamic jurisprudence is Hanafi, there is a strong tradition originating with Shah Waliullah to `unite` all the schools of fiqh , which compelled Shah Waliullah`s biographer and religious leader Unbaidullah Sindhi to insist that in India Hanafi law alone must be observed.

Closing of the Muslim mind: In Rasail-o-masail , Maududi clearly foreshadowed the extremism of the Taliban when he outlawed still photographs while ironically allowing cinematography. About the treatment to be meted out to women, his thinking seems to be of a piece with the Taliban: `In an Islamic civilisation it would be hundred times better to bury the Muslim girls alive in the graves rather than send them to the present day colleges or to the institutes for training nurses, or to hospitals. The same would be true of educating them in the present-day girls` colleges in order to train them as teachers`. These views are clearly at variance with Pakistan`s more universally accepted intellectual Allama Iqbal, especially in relation to the address he gave to the women of Madras in 1929. But in Pakistan, Allama Iqbal - and his objection to hudood laws in the Sixth Lecture - have steadily lost ground to Maududi.

The closing of he Islamic mind in Pakistan has been steady. The march to the Taliban style of Islam has been unbroken by any periods of relaxation. Even under a `secular` General Ayub Khan, Pakistan`s biggest post-1947 Islamic scholar Dr Fazlur Rehman was drummed out of the country for recommending a rationalist and moderate version of Islam. Elsewhere in the Islamic world reformists like Abduh and Afghani have not fared any better and there is a wind of extremism blowing in the Muslim society. Al-Azhar, once a seat of enlightened Islam, no longer accepts contraception, and its doctors will not give a clear verdict against female circumcision. All this will only complicate the government`s campaign - if ever it materialises - against religious extremism.

The problem of commanding and forbidding: The real trouble for the state of Pakistan comes from the Quranic concept of amr bil maruf wa nahi anal munkar (commanding right and forbidding wrong) which is in force through the ulema but has not been legislated. This transfers the sovereignty of the state to the ulema who may not agree with one another on the basic tenets of Islam as was proved by The Munir Report (1953). It is the duty of all believers to command that which is good and forbid that which is wrong. There are numerous verses in the Quran asking the Muslims to observe this principle. Should the act of forbidding be an individual act or a collective one? There are verses in the Quran that mostly advocate collective action, while there are some others that recommend individual action. But an individual could get into trouble challenging a powerful man on his misdeeds. An early story linked to Imam Abu Hanifa shows the Imam was reluctant to advise individuals to undertake the act of challenging.

The problem is that amr and nahi could have become obsolete in our day because of the setting up of a modern Islamic state, the framing of a constitution, the preparation of the penal code, and the establishment of a police department. If you think that something wrong is being done or that something right is not being done, you can look up the penal code, and if the act is described as a crime, you can go to the police station and register an FIR. In other words, the state is the enforcer of amr and nahi . If someone ignores this and enforces amr and nahi on his own, he would be deemed to have taken the law in his own hands and would be committing a crime himself. Nahi when enforced like this can be dangerous. In Pakistan, often when an individual tries to stop eve-teasing or rebukes persons not observing the fast, he is attacked by the violators and sometimes even killed. When prime minister Nawaz Sharif introduced the concept of amr and nahi in his 15th amendment, he intended to give the executive responsibility of amr and nahi to the government in power. Amr and nahi is law-making as you go along, somewhat on the lines of the Federal Shariat Court. In Afghanistan, the department of Amr bil Maroof were a group of hardline ulema who did law-making on their feet, innovating through such decisions as the destruction of the archaeological heritage of Afghanistan.

The state in Pakistan must march on to the realisation of the dogma it has embraced. In modern times, it is an extremist agenda. There is no way one can conceive that the Musharraf government will tackle it. The state must reach its terminal stage, like the state created by Mulla Umar. There is no institutionalised trend in Pakistan of learning from history or even taking lesson from the unfolding of the present.

Re:Reply #: 40

ali1,

Who cleans human excreta in ``the country of the pure``? I think the low class hindus do it to this day. Why, your country would not even give right of passage to a few thousand Biharis muslims struck for many decades in Bangladesh. And these people are your muslim brothers and belong to the ummah.

Lesson #1: Clean the SH!T in your backyard before you accuse others or to put it more politey: practise before you preach.

Sridhar

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re urstruly

Others had answered you the ape-peacock question quite well. I didn`t want to increase your misery by my answer- this being the Christmas season and all. But you haven`t answered one of my very basic questions to you either which is all the more important given the verbage of your current post:

Did you learn that kind of language at home or at your neighborhood Taleban-run madrassa?

You see, your language and rank prejudice represents to the world, far more than I can ever explain, why Pakistan broke up in 1971. You don`t have to look up the genesis of Martial Law or the history of Mir Jafar for the fundamental reason of united Pakistan`s demise: just look in the mirror and you`ll see that reason.

re urstruly and Kashmir

Urstruly, you may want to copy this reply down on your madrassa`s slate since I have probablt mentioned parts of it several times before. But for the other interactos I`ll be happy to reiterate:

``Please explain why the Kashmiri predicament is any different from Bengalis when you say 100s of millions of Bengalis when bengalis had won the elections with majority and still they commited an act of treason;``

Bengalis formed 54 % of Pakistan. Kashmir, if you want to concede it to India, forms no more than 3 %. A very fundamental difference on premise.

``...why didnt they kept quiet and waited for their CM; why Kashmiris are supposed to take the dracoinian laws lying down``

The Prime Minister elect of united Pakistan, SHeikh Mujibur Rahman, was never allowed to become Prime Minister since Pakistan`s military junta did not allow the Assembly to convene. The question of waiting, therefore, did not arise.

``... while Bengalis found themselves conveniently commit an act of treason in the face of Martial Law.``

Martial Law, in itself contravening the Constitution of Pakistan of 1956, is treason. Hence, that question is seriously flawed in premise and in logic.

`` Why Bengali freedom fight is any differnt from kashmiri-was Bengali struggle really a struggle for freedom in which 100s of millions died according to you or was it the treacorous blood of Mir Jafar and Mir Qasim that made Bengalis act the way they did?``

The racist comments notwithstanding, I am great supporter of the right of self-determination of KAshmir, that is ALL of Kashmir. Ask any Indian on the board, they`ll gladly tell you that, without too many good wishes for me. I wish ALL foreign troops, INdian, Pakistani, and Pakistani-sponsored Arabs will get the h * * * out of there.

`` Oh I get it, you would say that since India has a democracy and Paksitan had Martial law therfore Bengali struggle was valid but Kashmiri is not.``

The Bengali struggle was valid and so is the INDIGINEOUS Kashmiri struggle. What is in question is the terror by mercenaries.

``Please then explain to me how Kashmir is not under defacto Martial Law for the past 12 years with the laws such as Disturbed Area Act of 1990?``

The same reason that inspite of being under the Frontier Crimes Regulations since 1947, the so-called Northern Areas of Pakistan are not considered under MArtial Law, de facto or de jure.

`` Ok just answer a simple question why Bengalis are not traitors whereas Kashmiris are.``

NAtive KAshmiris struggling for freedom are not traitors. Begalis who did the same in 1971 were not either. If there were any traitors in 1971 it was the cabal that aborgated the Constitution of Pakistan, physically stopped the convening of Pakistan`s Constituent Assembly, and declared MArtial Law in direct contravention of the laws and Constitution of Pakistan. Whose treacheous blood did they have in their veins?

Traitors? How on earth can more than half of a whole be traitor to it? Silly.

Dear Chandan:

re#68

I guess I spoke too soon – too optimistically -- too naively -- hoping against hope -- what can I say.

May be for that dastardly act -- by those crazed murderer Jihadis -- who slaughtered an innocent Hindu family in cold blood -- one should replace the word “NO” with “YES” -- may be the sentence should read as follows:

There will be -- YES Terrorism -- YES War -- between India and Pakistan -- in 2002 -- Inshaallah.

Now I hope everybody feels a little better.

There will be -- NO Terrorism - No War -- between India and Pakistan -- in 2002 -- Inshaallah.

Farzana,

Your angst is understandable but naive. Obviously you are in a different position from the average man in the street because you have had the opportunity to interact freely with Pakis and found to your delight that some of them ARE smart, warm, decent human beings like yourself. So you can`t understand why we have to go to war with these nice people who`re at the bottom of it our genetic brethren.

The reason it doesn`t hold is that EVERY society has its good eggs. Ditto rotten ones. But as a nation, you have a consciousness that transcends the micros. At the end of the day every Indian knows that Pakistan is Islamic and is non-democratic. That they have waged three wars on us since 1947. That they have lost all three, and the anger has never gone away, only worsened because of it. That to Pakistan the loss of Bangladesh was like having an arm and a leg cut off. That Kashmir represents the last ``righteous`` avenue for Pakistan to vent its aggression and hostility against the cowardly filthy thousand-God worshipping Hindoos.

Ultimately it doesn`t matter if nice sweet Muslims and Pakis on this website and elsewhere think like you do and ponder the fultilty of war, THIS is the reality: Pakistan is our enemy No.1 and if they send their crazy, bloodthirsty goons into our homes and the home of our elected representatives, we BETTER retaliate and good. It`s the SANCTITY of Parliament that was violated when those basstuds entered the House and if you think the only reason our politicians are talking of war is because their own lives were in danger, either you are realy shallow or our politicians are (which is a fair assumption butuntrue). Nobody really WINS in a war, but if we sit tight without responding to acts of violence in one of our sacred institutions, we will only live up to the cowardly hindoo definition.

SM

Bengali # 86

I dont understand why you took offence of me calling you bengali, isn`t that what you people wanted all along; isn`t it the reason that 100s of millions of bengalis died because they preferred being called bengali over paksitani. Similarly hindus are offended when I call them hindus; even some paksitanis are offended at me calling them hindus. Why you people are so ashamed of what you are? I understand hindus if they are offended by calling them hindus because i will kill and maim if someone had called me hindu....but bengali...humph.

Bengali# 87

Thank you

(But plz cut the bulshitt of Frontier Crimes Regulation-ok?)

Urstruly #various
A KK song for you and some famous people us-paar (and not ANY other poster on chowk, pl. note)

duniyaa oh duniyaa, teraa jawaab nahin
theri jafaao`n kaa, bus, koi hisaab nahin

theri wafaa se thaa, zikr strategic depth kaa
theri training camps se thaa, naam mujahiddeen kaa
aaye nazar kaise ab Durand Line bhi, embassy cchoDo

kal jo na bol paathe the, Musharraf-Vajpayee ke naam
aaj khaDe-khaDe wohi Bush, bol lethe hain LeT aur JeM
iraada thaa internationalize karnaa, J&K ko, hai khud ho gaye

sochaa thaa plebiscite mein, haath bataa denge
Bharati nakshe ki, hum gardan uDaa denge
par ab hum khush ho lenge, PoK ke camp hi bacchaakar

aage ka sochnaa hai, viz. Assam Tripura ke baare mein
gardan nahi sahi tho phir, haath-pai`r hi tuDwa denge
proxy war ideology ke Gul, S.Asia mein khilthe rahai`n

kyo`nki-
duniyaa oh duniyaa, teraa jawaab nahin
theri jafaao`n kaa, bus, koi hisaab nahin

Urstruly (#44):

I have a confession to make. When this piece was published, I was aware of one negative reaction – and I have got it. Just a few minutes ago in my mailbox. I cannot even see the screen clearly. I have lost something precious. Will you still ask me about crossing limits? Me? The confession I have to make is that I was wondering if you would visit this Board, and if you did, what would your thoughts be. It was important for me for one reason – you represent a rabid Pakistani sentiment, you have been called a mullah, and you have held on to this rigid stance. I was given to that your kind would never understand what I was talking about.

Can you imagine my surprise when you posted that letter? I was especially thankful for your comment: “fair and clear- made me once again envious of the fact that why such a fair liberal mind is not on our side”, not merely because it is addressed to me, but because you have understood the spirit behind the article, you who represent all that is static as everyone never tires of reminding this forum.

However, I made the error of scrolling down, and found your views on the shame of the year. If you had laudatory comments to make about my piece where I have spoken of cross-cultural/religious meshing, and you think I am balanced enough for you to want me on the other side, then how can you be so spiteful towards Indians? I am not a Kashmiri. I have spoken against a war. At least you realise I do not make social distinctions, though I am accused of it. I am seriously a non-religious person. And most important of all, I am an Indian. More Indian than the regular ‘patriots’ you are directing your ire against. So, what makes me different? I do not have adequate words to argue with what you had to say, but may I at least hope that you will in future realise that all the trouble you take to often make relevant points get lost in the venom? By wishing bubonic plague, death and misery on us you reduce your stature. We have all of these without your wishes. If you wish us well, believe me, the entire region will thrive, including Kashmir.

You object to my last para: “Yes, I have always taken extreme positions, but today I have only one small prayer to offer that unseen god of small things: Please keep me on the fence. From here I shall make my own borders – that hazy line where the sky meets the sea.”

This is no cop-out. I have never believed in borders. I shall fight those that I perceive are against ‘human decency’, but if I sit put on one side I cannot see them clearly. Which is why I wish to sit on the fence (for all those who wondered about this line… Behram, are you listening?). And when I talked about the hazy line where the sky meets the sea, I knew it is called the horizon (Veeresh!); I deliberately referred to it as the border because it stretches as far as the eye can see and is really an imagined distinction.

If two people as disparate as you and I can have a dialogue then I think there is hope. And if, on the other hand, people say that beneath the skin we are both the same, then again it is not such a bad deal. We would have crossed borders. Either way, it is a win-win situation.

-----

Someone wanted to know if he was included in my New Year greetings message (I shall not name you for you have confessed to “evil designs”)…of course, you were and always shall be. But yes, agar rishtedaari ke naam se pukaroge to yeh rishta shaayad bohat mehenga padega :)

-----

Thank you all for your comments…I shall be with you shortly.

Regards,

Farzana

not too long ago pakis were complaining about the indian cricket team refusing to tour pakistan...looks like they aren`t the only ones...the jehadi culture will not fly...the adventure with the taliban is over...the adventure in kashmir will be over soon as well...

{{West Indies pull out of Pakistan tour

KARACHI: The West Indies pulled out of a scheduled tour of Pakistan on Tuesday to become the third international team to refuse to tour there since the September 11 attacks on New York and Washington.

A Pakistan Cricket Board (PCB) spokesman confirmed to Reuters from Lahore that the West Indies cricket board (WICB) has informed it that it is not willing to send its team to Pakistan in the current climate of tension.

The WICB said it would, however, be willing to play its forthcoming series against Pakistan at a neutral venue.

``I can confirm we have received such a letter from the West Indies board and we are looking at it,`` the spokesman said.

New Zealand and Sri Lanka have also pulled out of scheduled tours there after the September 11 attacks.}}

israel deserves india`s fully support...the heck with that terrorist arafat..times have changed...

{{Shimon Peres to visit India next week

``Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres will discuss bilateral, regional and international issues with Indian leaders and seek New Delhi`s `active support` in the Middle East crisis during his five-day visit to India next week.

---

``Israel supports India fully in its war against terrorism and the steps it is taking to fight terrorism. We are facing the same problem unfortunately,`` Zvi Gabay, the foreign ministry`s deputy director general for Asia and the Pacific, said.

``We do not want any harm done to our friend (India)`` in the current situation in South Asia, he said.}}

re: rsridhar

{Who cleans human excreta in ``the country of the pure``?}

haven`t you seen them line up 5-times-a-day, row upon row with their behinds raised in the faces of some other men behind them? they do it for each other.

Farzana,

Read your piece again, and it remains compelling. Kudos to you for asking some questions regarding the dehumanization of peoples very few people will have the honesty to answer. I was particularly moved by your perspective as a progressive Indian Muslim.

My own experience has led me to believe that hatred is based on ignorance, fear, power and control. No new answers here, of course. It could be my naivete that prevents me from accepting that Pakistanis and Indians must always be at odds, but my interactions and collaborations with South Asians in the US have taught me otherwise.

Could the manufacture of hatred be a manifestation of govt./manipulative community leadership divisiveness? How do our prejudices serve us as individuals or communities in the short and long run? How will our prejudices equip us to adjust to the full ``speckled`` spectrum of this very diverse and beautiful world? Why do we cling to these hatred when the people of the Subcontinent are one of the most ethnically, racially, lingually and religiously diverse in the world? When did we lose the ability to be tolerant and embracing of this diversity, when clearly there were societies from India to Afghanistan that were?

If we can blame the British, can we not blame the Saudis? If we can blame the Saudis, aren`t the conservative BJP next in line? When do we look into our own collective soul?

I know, I know, no new material here...turning to the US, I know several Pakistani-Americans who have married outside South Asian races and religions and are quite happy...any thoughts?

regards

tahmed321 # 33

Thanks for your kind words and for bringing to mind that ever-enchanting Auld Lang Syne. So long as we have people like you, we`ll take a cup o` kindness yet.

Best regards and a great new year to you and yours.

Prem

Dear Miss Farzana Versey,

Are you equipped to protect your country? If you think not then you are not. I do understand your desire not to follow just any idiot but I question your ``sit on the fence`` policy.

For me: I am no zombie who does blindly what idiots tell him (in fact I am very non-conformist), but if I enjoy the protection and privileges of a country I have to do all I can to aid in its defence. Or perhaps JFKs famous words would enlighten you : ``Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country``. Not a polical party nor a leader, but the people themselves. The Indian Parliament is the legislature and represents the people of India.

Yes, politicians will put a spin to events but its not a crime. It is in fact a reality of a democratic society where we as informed individuals make a choice. I have neither seen nor heard the Indian leaders of any major mis-leadings apart from polical maneuvering. Tell me one religious, spiritual, political, environmental, human rights leader who hasn`t done some bit of it, and dinner is on me.

Don`t led short term goals of elected leaders to let you being disillusioned about a bigger purpose.

NotAMullah

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view this users filtered interacts

I understand that the famed `Jinnah-hater` Mr.Rafiq Zakaria of India, the `Moderate` Muslim, is also the chairman of All India Khilafat Committee....

So much for Moderation and the `Moderate` Indian Muslims....

Soundmeister,

Your theory of good and rotten eggs is old hat as are the tragic dramas between India and Pakistan; has it gotten the various countries on the subcontinent anywhere? Yes, the criminals who attacked the Indian Parliament must be found and punished. Yes, Pakistan must address the self destructive element of fundamentalism that seems to have taken the entire country hostage. You may mock the idealists as naive, but the saber rattlers have done nothing in improving or addressing Indo-Pak histories or relationships; what you offer us is death and more death.

As for those who insist on willfully fantasizing about our supposed differences, perhaps some words from the Dalai Llama, a peaceable man who represents an entire displaced people (who have desisted, might I add, from terrorist attacks of China) might give us pause:

``Interdependence is a fundamental law of nature. Many of the smalllest insects, are social beings who, without any religion, law or education, survive by mutual cooperation based on an innate recognition of their interconnectedness.``

sigalph #89 Please dont waste your time by trying to reason with this man. He resorts easily to name-calling, thereby betraying his low-class origins.

```````In an Islamic civilisation it would be hundred times better to bury the Muslim girls alive in the graves rather than send them to the present day colleges or to the institutes for training nurses, or to hospitals. The same would be true of educating them in the present-day girls` colleges in order to train them as teachers`.```` (maulana Muadudi) quote from Khalid Ahmed column posted by Harimau.

Oh my God! -- that Maulana MURDUDI will BURN IN HELL eternally -- for what he did to the Muslims of Afghanistan -- and Pakistan.

For that criminally insane maulana -- the Pre Islamic Ahade Jahiliya -- when the Arabs used to bury ther infant girls alive -- never left Islam!!

The minority issue

Mohammad A. Zaman, M.D. writes from Raleigh, NC, USA.

A COMMENT: I grew up in a small village in Sylhet, half of which was Hindu. I played with them. I grew up with them. I made friends with them. As I went to college, some of my best friends were Hindus. Durga and Saraswati Puja was just like any other festival to me. But the recent events in Bangladesh as reported by The Daily Star and other newspapers is profoundly disturbing. It is even more disturbing to see the reluctance of our elected government to accept the problem as it exists. Smart solution requires identification of the problem and understanding its intricacies. Without the willingness to accept the problem as a problem, establishing a high profile government commission is nothing but a futile venture. To meet the criteria for general acceptance, the investigation has to be independent ( of government) and transparent.

A FEW THOUGHTS: Even though we share a common cultural heritage, bonded tightly by a common language, a dichotomy got rooted with the introduction of Islam in Bengal. Probably most of the conversion in Islam occurred in the downtrodden and oppressed ``have-nots`` in the lower strata of Hindu society ( I bet my forefather was one of them). As they converted, they reaped the advantage of royal favors at the expense of their previous masters of higher strata. So a deep sense of untoward feeling between the two groups was there to begin with. And it is natural. Then came the British-Raj. With the loss of royal patronage, the Muslim society as a whole remained estranged, while the Hindu intelligentia embraced English. It was a complete reversal of the dice. Economically prosperous, culturally advanced Hindu Babus looked down at the Muslim Mians. Thus, despite a very strong bondage, a deep-seated resentment permeated the Muslim psyche. In Bengal, this possibly got worsened during the Bango-Bhango movement. The point, I am alluding to is simple: `` When economic and social parity supervenes, religion usually becomes a back-burner. The apparent ill feeling between the two groups of the same people, originated largely because of socio-economic reason. If the Hindu society was homogeneous to begin with, my forefather, most likely, would have retained his Sanatan faith. And my name would have been predictably different.`` This deep-seated strain is not going to go away anytime soon. In fact, this dichotomy of our very culture, led to the evolution of two different tributaries of a great cultural might. It is like a twin, though not monozygotic. We have two different names. We look different like two fraternal brothers and/or sisters. But our Mother is the same.

If we consider this basic proposition as an established fact, a lot of apparent difference and inconsistencies can be explained without any misgivings. Being Arabic in origin, my name does not betray my cultural heritage. It only affirms the fact that I am flowing from a different tributary.

AN AFTERTHOUGHT: As I mentioned earlier, akin to a tectonic fault line, there is a natural strain in our national psyche. And some unscrupulous politicians are magnifying this strain with resultant atrocities of volcanic proportion against our own fraternal brothers and sisters. It is time to raise a rational voice that reverberates in every rational soul.