Taliban : An Analysis

Sameer, please do not tarnish the name of our ancestors living around 1995 by saying ``For the Taliban, time stopped some time during the seventh century and restarted during 1995``. Even people living at that time or hence in Afghansitan were much more progressive then Taliban. Tagore had written such a poignant story ``Kabuliwala`` about an Afghan, in this century, and the hero of this stroy cannot be imagined in anyway to have supported acts like those of the Taliban.

Urstruly,

You misunderstood my argument. In an Islamic state which has gone through the process of Ijtehad and Ijmah, and other rigors of Islamic jurisprudence, I concede that all of the 5 points that I have presented will be accepted principles of the state. My conception of a true Islamic state arises from Iqbal`s `reconstruction of religious thought in Islam`.

However, that has not been the experience. In Pakistan crimes against humanity have been perpetrated in the name of Islam. In Afghanistan Islam has come to symbolize oppression, backwardness and everything that is wrong.

True Islam in my opinion, and this is my opinion and unfortunately not the opinion of billions of Muslims world widE, stands for a Liberal Democratic Modernist state wherein all people will be given equal rights and in which no one will be forced to hide their faith or denomination. But my Islam it seems died with Syed Ahmed Khan, Gokalp, Iqbal, Ameer Ali and Jinnah.

I am talking about the abuse of Quran that takes place in our societies for selfish and petty reasons.

Sincerely

YLH

PS: I know you and I dont agree on many things but you should have more faith in me than to compare me with self righteous twits from across the border.

fatimah # 59

In response to your question who is asking for help ? Just about every country in Asia/Africa/Latin America which does not have oil ? Some ask for money. Some ask for trading priveleges. Some want access to advanced technology and weapons. Some want right to immigrate to USA.

I never said that everyone asks for help from America. Even those who do sell themselves have their own agenda. Pakistan is a good example. It pursued its own agenda on nukes, China and Afghanistan.

If China had pulled out the WTC bombing, the consequences would be extremely severe. I don`t think US would have attacked China. At least not as quickly as Afghanistan.

USA apologized for shooting of Iranian Airbus in the Persian Gulf. It was a war zone with skirmishes between US and Iranian navies. USA did a mistake.

I don`t know where you get the 25000 Afghan dead. The dead include Taleban soldiers, Pakistani/Arab mercernaries, Northern Alliance troops in addition to civillians. If USA provides Karzai with the help to rebuild Afghanistan it is worth the effort. If you don`t like the US effort, what do you suggest as an alternative ?

If that attack had been in Delhi instead of New York, Islamabad would be a rubble of concrete.

ProphetMuhammad:

Finally you have arrived. Please show us the way.

Thanks.

Ref ProphetMuhammad #: 68

[Hydraheaded Monster imposing as MAJinnah... if you dont want me using this nick stop using that...]

Is thay you, ylh? I publicly asked for the nick ProphetMuhammad but didn`t get around to registering it with Chowk. So this is NOT me.

Great quote from K.K. Aziz`s book -

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/book1.htm

``The choice is between a counterfeit culture in which irrational tenets dominate over a few observable traditions and a genuine and pure culture in which reason and inheritance balance each other, liberal ideas jostle with traditional values, enlightenment goes hand in hand with the legacy of good manners and human sympathy, the best of our patrimony is conserved and wedded with the finest gifts of the new world.``

Will we listen?

Re: Hamidm writes….

..... even a sprinkle of islam (the political kind) is a receipe for disaster ... can you imagine having a ``little`` bit of communism or fascism or plain and simple madness as part of a political system .... to justice.


I expected better from you… several public policies in the US are and Western Europe are in response to Communism…. The rigt to Unionize, Social Security. Unemployment Insurance and heavy government involvement in the market place……Actually the Western European economies are even more socialized …..so there is a substantial bit of “Communism” in the US domestic policy….

Even if you remove Islam from Pakistan – do you really believe Presto you have an enlightened society … Pakistan would be more like Mexico – which is a secular country yet not effective progress….

And the “liberal” recipe for Islamic removal is much like the jehadi recipe for Islamic implementation….. FORCE, TORTURE and REPRESSION The problem for Pakistan is that we are a nation of 150 Million PAINDOO’s with a regressive thought process. Even after residing in the West decades --- our most effective : Solution” to bring about change is through a centralized Machiavellian authority… What Pakistan ails from is PAINDOOISM … and the PAINDOO is not the poor villager … but the Islamic and Liberal leadership who are more interested in preserving their own vested agendas….

Rather than being stuck in a ideological quagmire of means – why does the liberal gentry concentrate on the ends….. why not build schools, hospitals and power plants …based on secular NGO’s and trusts .and show the strength of your ideology by benefiting the people of Pakistan…- And the same goes for the Islamists … rather they developing a massada complex with hate filled “anti-Hindu” or anti-Jewish” rhetoric the Islamic parties should be building schools, …. Hospitals etc etc…… And let the people( who are hopefully more enlightened) decide what t hey want through the ballot box….

This way the right wing and the left wing idealogues can argue ad nauseam whilst the rest of the population moves ahead constructively and sees some tangible benfits of this rivalry…

Or is it as I suspect that the left wing is no different from the right wing – they are both purveyors of the status quo and at best ideological demagogues .- as a result the people have seen no tangible benefits in their life….

..

Ylh# 65

Again there are two ways to answer your question:

``Do you or don`t you think Pakistan should have the following:

1) Pluralistic Democracy
2) Freedom of Conscience
3) Equal Rights for all
4) Protection of Law and Order
5) The Right to choose``

Answer # 1 will be in question form. Could you plz. show that the above 5 objectives cannot be achieved with in an Islamic polity.

Answer # 2 – The five objectives that you have listed are only means to an end and not the ultimate goal in themselves. As compared to secular political ideologies, Islam put forth two objectives before us when we device any political system.

1. The system should be able to preserve rights of God (Haqooq-ullah)
2. The system should be able to preserve rights of Man (Haqooq-ul-Ibaad)

How we define Rights of Man is actually the way a society takes its shape. Any Secular ideology, whether Democracy or Monarchy may successfully be able to deliver Rights of Man. But in an Islamic system #1 & #2 are so much intertwined and integrated that we cannot have one without the other. Therefore as compared to Secular ideologies Islam gives a purpose of being to not only an individual but also to the whole society. Are Secular societies without a purpose of life? It is an interesting question to ponder, isn`t it? And interestingly enough the secular societies, in the end, find the purpose of life by doing everything that preserves Rights of God. So why not do it right the first time.

Regarding your assertion of killing Christians or infidels, I think you are lot smarter than that. Don’t lower yourself to the level of you know who.

Hydraheaded Monster imposing as MAJinnah... if you dont want me using this nick stop using that...

Hamidm

``let`s start by shutting down ptv channel-4 which spouts meaningless arabic all day long; do away with the AH calender which nobody can figure out; eliminate the parallel sharia court and throw out the silly hadood and blasphemy laws; ban polygamy and the burqa; drop the handle ``islamic republic`` and go back to being plain old pakistan ......... and first of all remove prohibition which, along with kite flying and hairy armpits, would be most visible sign of recovery from this insidious disease .........``

Hear hear... except for hairy armpits.

Interesting article at:http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/30/weekinreview/30CROS.html

It seems to me that the Mullahs (and Indians) have managed to demonize the word : Secularism. So let me put it another way:

Urstruly:

Do you or dont you think Pakistan should have the following:

1) Pluralistic Democracy

2) Freedom of Conscience

3) Equal Rights for all

4) Protection of Law and Order

5) The Right to choose

Now if an Islamic State is willing to guarantee all of the abovementioned, I have no problem with such a state. However, if Quran as a book was to become a legal precedent within our legal system, people would abuse it ... like people would start killing christians in the name of the Quran.. or the death of the preaching of christianity will be death. All these practises, whether or not accepted by the Quran, are unacceptable in the framework of the Modern state with equal rights for all.

Sincerely

YLH

Sac,

``Can`t be Islamic without Islam``...true, the double irony is the lack of capitial and Islam is really a bad combinaion.

Aisha

Re: Aeisha to Sameer.

Many interesting to do things for Pakistan, but did you really mean this

``2. Brand Barelvis and Shias as non-Muslims.

1. Brand Deobandis and Wahabis as non-Muslims``

You must be kidding right? I don`t want to say anything if you were making a joke.

Aisha

Re: Reply #: 52 sadna

I am much impressed that you chose to quote Bernard Lewis`s analysis, I had the pleasure of listening to him on C-span just the day before and it was quiet a moving experience, This man seems to have the humilty and brains of an ideal human. In my opinion atleast, Indeed the way he has clearly and cogently explained how oil ended up also being a curse to the middle east by analying the inverse adage of ``no representation without taxation``. The frictionless runnning of the weathy oil nations has erased the need for the government to know its people`s wants and wishes. Surely a fatal way to go.

Later

Aisha

ali1 #46, ``Most maulanas shave their armpits. I guess you are too much of a prude to ever find this out. Most males in rural Pakistan go to the nai to get their armpits shaved.... this you will find out once your parents marry you off to your cousin in the Seraiki belt.``

first of all, what are you doing checking male armpits? aren`t you a guy? unless...u`re ....nevermind.

secondly, i don`t interact with the maulana types so i wouldn`t know their shaving practices.

thirdly, my parents don`t `marry off` daughters, maybe it happens in the family you come from.

``This is only possible in Communist societies. Religion is very much part of politics in US, India etc. But this can be complicated, so go watch a Govinda Kapoor or Brad Pitt movie instead. ``

it doesn`t take a rocket scientist to figure out that there is a separation of religion and state in the US. that`s one of the things that makes this country great.

ps: Brad Pitt is old, get with the new stuff...or are you still stuck in the early nineties