Taliban : An Analysis
Sameer January 1, 2002
#58 Posted by Bhardwaj on January 3, 2001 2:01:35 pm
JAY #44
``Who was responsible for partition has to be judged by the outcome. There were according to various estimates nearly 20 percent hindus in the region, now pakistan. Now there are only less than one percent. What happened to them, the pakistani believers of TNT ``eliminated` them. Now tell me who caused the partition, who believed in TNT. As a further extension you have blasphemy laws, created taliban. Now here is an extrapolation for you, pakistan will become more jihadic.
Now tell me about your version, hindus are the cause of division, why are so many muslims even now in india. FULL STOP.``
Jay
Atleast you agree that Muslims of indian subcontinent did not agree to partition as a FINAL settlement of hindu muslim dispute.
140 million muslims in India are there b/c they have been there for 10000 yrs.Hindus like you thaught by creating Pakistan,they would drive all muslims at the two corners of india east & west.
You are blaming the muslims BECAUSE IN YOUR MIND YOU THINK MUSLIMS ARE PRACTICING A POLICY WHICH YOU THINK INDICATE THAT THEY MUST HAVE CAUSED IT.
Would you by your LOGIC OF AFTER EFFECT say that Kashmiris never wanted to be with India b/c for 54 yrs they are fighting for freedom.?
THE MISTAKE OF HINDUS IS THAT THEY THINK THEY DESIGNED THE MULTIRACSIAL MULTIETHNIC COMPOSITION OF INDIA.India by itself is composed of diverse groups of peoples.Untill all non hindus are driven out from India .An impossible & bloody very hard genocidal task .Untill that India has no alternative but to be diverse,multi religous multiethnic wether you have secularism or not in your constitution.
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#57 Posted by harimau on January 3, 2001 2:01:35 pm
Ref 12-head-Bhardwaj #: 27
[IF IT AINT BROKEN DONT FIX IT.
http://www.flonnet.com/fl1826/18261180.htm
GENDER ISSUES
blah, blah, blah.....]
Well, no more 4 wives for you.
[IF IT AINT BROKEN DONT FIX IT.
http://www.flonnet.com/fl1826/18261180.htm
GENDER ISSUES
blah, blah, blah.....]
Well, no more 4 wives for you.
#56 Posted by ylh on January 3, 2001 2:01:35 pm
Jay,
Nice doggy, roll over, play dead now... Nice doggy ... cho chweet.
Nice doggy, roll over, play dead now... Nice doggy ... cho chweet.
#55 Posted by hamzadafaqui on January 3, 2001 2:01:35 pm
And now something to give more goosebumps(and warts,acne,& hives)& sweat to the munaafiqueens.
_________________________________________________
Making money the Muslim way
With a fifth of the world`s people following Islamic principles, the debate about the Islamic economic system is hotting up, writes SHAUN HARRIS.
THE basis of what is today called the Islamic economic system goes back more than 1 400 years and is founded on the values set out in the directives of the prophets, the Qur`an and the Sunna, and the Ijtehad forum.
Yet Islamic economics is very much a developing discipline, particularly in its application to modern life.
Growth of Islamic economics and micro-components like the Islamic banking system has been rapid since 1975, the year of the first international Islamic economic conference and the formation of the Islamic Development Bank (IDB).
Last month Durban was the venue for the first Islamic economics, banking and finance seminar to be held in Southern Africa.
The three-day meeting brought academics and researchers from around the world to address and debate economic issues with the local Muslim community.
The importance of the seminar, hosted by the Islamic Dawah Movement of Southern Africa and IDB of Saudi Arabia, was to ``try to discover and develop a new, fresh approach to economics``, says Professor Khurshid Ahmed, vice-president of the Islamic Research Academy in Pakistan.
Ahmed carries a lot of intellectual and moral weight. The Islamic Research Academy is regarded as one of the top Islamic academic institutions in the world, but some of the other positions filled by Ahmed include chair of The Islamic Foundation in the United Kingdom and chair of the Institute of Policy Studies in Pakistan. He was also a member of the Pakistan Senate in 1985.
He set the tone for the meeting by saying that while modern Islamic economics was in the process of transforming itself, its application was important to provide an alternative to some of the problems stemming from Western systems, what he calls ``economism`` .
``The downfall of economism is that it tries to look at all problems from the economic angle. This tends to reduce humanity to an economic variable,`` he says. A stern critic of imperialism -- ``it led to the impoverishment of the majority and empowerment of the few`` -- and capitalism, Ahmed says the aim of Islamic economics is to produce a more fair, just and humane economic system.
``Great strides have been made by professional researchers in the development of Islamic economics and finance over the past 25 years. A number of Western universities all over the world now include courses on Islamic economics.
``But research is not enough -- Islamic economics must now be applied, particularly by the private sector.``
This is where the debate really opens up. With a firm basis in religious and ethical principles, the application of Islamic economics to commercial activities like banking, letting and especially insurance is the subject of interpretation, and in some cases pragmatism.
The Islamic principles are clear and accepted by Muslims -- the challenge is how to apply them to modern business, particularly in a non-Islamic country.
Ahmed accepts this cannot happen overnight. ``Islamic economics has made great progress, but it is still developing, and still has a long way to go,`` he says.
But what is this developing system of economics? It incorporates, or accepts, some of the features of the modern free-market system, but within the constraints of Shari`ah, rules derived directly from the Qur`an and Sunnah, says Dr Abdel Rahman Yousri, professor of economics at Alexandria University, Egypt.
The base of the Islamic economic system, he says, is composed of the ``constants`` of Shari`ah but also the variables deducted from them through the Ijtehad forum, described as diligence on the part of Muslim jurists and scholars to find out rules for new issues and problems which face Muslim individuals and societies.
``Thus the Islamic economic system, though established on dogmas, will always possess sufficient flexibility in the face of new issues and problems which inevitably arise in our continuously changing world,`` Yousri says.
TALK TO US
What do you think? Have your say
Mail the editor
Central in the ``constants`` is the complete prohibition of Riba, loosely translated as interest, but with far wider implications, including usury and payments in certain cases on the future expectation of profits or goods.
The owners of capital are instead allowed and encouraged to invest, through various methods, in profit-and loss-sharing ventures.
A common misconception about Islamic economics is that it precludes a return on capital. It does not, as long as the original capital is invested in assets or an enterprise that can produce a profit -- ultimately a return on capital.
What is strictly not allowed is for money to generate its own return directly, as in the interest charged on loans by Western banks.
This has allowed for the formation and rapid development of Islamic banking. Dr Osman Babikr, a researcher with the IDB, says according to Islamic principles money can earn a return only by being employed productively, rather than being allowed to feed on itself in financial markets.
``When an Islamic bank lends money, it shares the risks and rewards undertaken by the borrower. The bank`s rate of return depends on the financial success of its clients,`` he says.
Depositors can enter into contracts with banks, similar to the Western concept of share capital, whereby their money is lent to a third party engaged in profit-earning activities.
The depositors then share the profits the bank receives from these activities. This adaptation of Islamic principles to modern banking has seen the rapid development of Islamic financial institutions, starting with the Dubai Islamic Bank in 1975.
Since the early 1980s two large Islamic groups have been formed, Al Baraka (the only Islamic bank in South Africa since the collapse of the local Islamic Bank) and Dar Mal Al Islami.
Latest available figures, to the end of 1997, show a total of 176 Islamic banks around the world, with total capital of more than $7,3-billion and total assets of about $148-billion.
But the really fascinating, and according to Dr Hussein Kamel Fahmi confusing, concept to debate in Islamic economics is insurance.
Fahmi, a senior researcher at the Islamic Research and Training Institute in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, says while contemporary Islamic society faces the same types of risk that prevail in Western countries, the problem is on what basis they can be insured against.
A definition of insurance is money paid, usually on a monthly or annual basis, against an unforeseen risk that will be compensated for with money.
That definition, says Fahmi, is not acceptable under Islamic practice (though some scholars have argued in favour of it) because it implies money producing money, which in turn evokes the prohibition of Riba.
Islam also recognises two sets of commodity items, gold and silver (and by analogy bank notes) and soft commodities like dates, wheat, barley and salt.
Among other Islamic rules governing commercial exchanges between these sets of commodities is one that stipulates that commodities exchanged in the same class must be settled at a spot price, and immediately.
So bank notes, like the payment of insurance premiums, cannot be made on the basis of receiving compensation for a loss in the form of bank notes at a future date.
That, says Fahmi, poses one of the main problems for applying the Western insurance system to Islamic society.
But in some non-Islamic countries Muslims have been forced to be pragmatic and use insurance companies.
There is also a growing trend of Muslim syndicates being formed to offer a basic form of insurance for members.
However, with more than a fifth of the world`s population following Islamic principles -- more than a billion people -- a massive market must exist for an insurance group innovative enough to produce a system of insurance that complies with Islam.
-- The Mail & Guardian, September 21, 1999.
_________________________________________________
Making money the Muslim way
With a fifth of the world`s people following Islamic principles, the debate about the Islamic economic system is hotting up, writes SHAUN HARRIS.
THE basis of what is today called the Islamic economic system goes back more than 1 400 years and is founded on the values set out in the directives of the prophets, the Qur`an and the Sunna, and the Ijtehad forum.
Yet Islamic economics is very much a developing discipline, particularly in its application to modern life.
Growth of Islamic economics and micro-components like the Islamic banking system has been rapid since 1975, the year of the first international Islamic economic conference and the formation of the Islamic Development Bank (IDB).
Last month Durban was the venue for the first Islamic economics, banking and finance seminar to be held in Southern Africa.
The three-day meeting brought academics and researchers from around the world to address and debate economic issues with the local Muslim community.
The importance of the seminar, hosted by the Islamic Dawah Movement of Southern Africa and IDB of Saudi Arabia, was to ``try to discover and develop a new, fresh approach to economics``, says Professor Khurshid Ahmed, vice-president of the Islamic Research Academy in Pakistan.
Ahmed carries a lot of intellectual and moral weight. The Islamic Research Academy is regarded as one of the top Islamic academic institutions in the world, but some of the other positions filled by Ahmed include chair of The Islamic Foundation in the United Kingdom and chair of the Institute of Policy Studies in Pakistan. He was also a member of the Pakistan Senate in 1985.
He set the tone for the meeting by saying that while modern Islamic economics was in the process of transforming itself, its application was important to provide an alternative to some of the problems stemming from Western systems, what he calls ``economism`` .
``The downfall of economism is that it tries to look at all problems from the economic angle. This tends to reduce humanity to an economic variable,`` he says. A stern critic of imperialism -- ``it led to the impoverishment of the majority and empowerment of the few`` -- and capitalism, Ahmed says the aim of Islamic economics is to produce a more fair, just and humane economic system.
``Great strides have been made by professional researchers in the development of Islamic economics and finance over the past 25 years. A number of Western universities all over the world now include courses on Islamic economics.
``But research is not enough -- Islamic economics must now be applied, particularly by the private sector.``
This is where the debate really opens up. With a firm basis in religious and ethical principles, the application of Islamic economics to commercial activities like banking, letting and especially insurance is the subject of interpretation, and in some cases pragmatism.
The Islamic principles are clear and accepted by Muslims -- the challenge is how to apply them to modern business, particularly in a non-Islamic country.
Ahmed accepts this cannot happen overnight. ``Islamic economics has made great progress, but it is still developing, and still has a long way to go,`` he says.
But what is this developing system of economics? It incorporates, or accepts, some of the features of the modern free-market system, but within the constraints of Shari`ah, rules derived directly from the Qur`an and Sunnah, says Dr Abdel Rahman Yousri, professor of economics at Alexandria University, Egypt.
The base of the Islamic economic system, he says, is composed of the ``constants`` of Shari`ah but also the variables deducted from them through the Ijtehad forum, described as diligence on the part of Muslim jurists and scholars to find out rules for new issues and problems which face Muslim individuals and societies.
``Thus the Islamic economic system, though established on dogmas, will always possess sufficient flexibility in the face of new issues and problems which inevitably arise in our continuously changing world,`` Yousri says.
TALK TO US
What do you think? Have your say
Mail the editor
Central in the ``constants`` is the complete prohibition of Riba, loosely translated as interest, but with far wider implications, including usury and payments in certain cases on the future expectation of profits or goods.
The owners of capital are instead allowed and encouraged to invest, through various methods, in profit-and loss-sharing ventures.
A common misconception about Islamic economics is that it precludes a return on capital. It does not, as long as the original capital is invested in assets or an enterprise that can produce a profit -- ultimately a return on capital.
What is strictly not allowed is for money to generate its own return directly, as in the interest charged on loans by Western banks.
This has allowed for the formation and rapid development of Islamic banking. Dr Osman Babikr, a researcher with the IDB, says according to Islamic principles money can earn a return only by being employed productively, rather than being allowed to feed on itself in financial markets.
``When an Islamic bank lends money, it shares the risks and rewards undertaken by the borrower. The bank`s rate of return depends on the financial success of its clients,`` he says.
Depositors can enter into contracts with banks, similar to the Western concept of share capital, whereby their money is lent to a third party engaged in profit-earning activities.
The depositors then share the profits the bank receives from these activities. This adaptation of Islamic principles to modern banking has seen the rapid development of Islamic financial institutions, starting with the Dubai Islamic Bank in 1975.
Since the early 1980s two large Islamic groups have been formed, Al Baraka (the only Islamic bank in South Africa since the collapse of the local Islamic Bank) and Dar Mal Al Islami.
Latest available figures, to the end of 1997, show a total of 176 Islamic banks around the world, with total capital of more than $7,3-billion and total assets of about $148-billion.
But the really fascinating, and according to Dr Hussein Kamel Fahmi confusing, concept to debate in Islamic economics is insurance.
Fahmi, a senior researcher at the Islamic Research and Training Institute in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, says while contemporary Islamic society faces the same types of risk that prevail in Western countries, the problem is on what basis they can be insured against.
A definition of insurance is money paid, usually on a monthly or annual basis, against an unforeseen risk that will be compensated for with money.
That definition, says Fahmi, is not acceptable under Islamic practice (though some scholars have argued in favour of it) because it implies money producing money, which in turn evokes the prohibition of Riba.
Islam also recognises two sets of commodity items, gold and silver (and by analogy bank notes) and soft commodities like dates, wheat, barley and salt.
Among other Islamic rules governing commercial exchanges between these sets of commodities is one that stipulates that commodities exchanged in the same class must be settled at a spot price, and immediately.
So bank notes, like the payment of insurance premiums, cannot be made on the basis of receiving compensation for a loss in the form of bank notes at a future date.
That, says Fahmi, poses one of the main problems for applying the Western insurance system to Islamic society.
But in some non-Islamic countries Muslims have been forced to be pragmatic and use insurance companies.
There is also a growing trend of Muslim syndicates being formed to offer a basic form of insurance for members.
However, with more than a fifth of the world`s population following Islamic principles -- more than a billion people -- a massive market must exist for an insurance group innovative enough to produce a system of insurance that complies with Islam.
-- The Mail & Guardian, September 21, 1999.
#54 Posted by Urstruly on January 3, 2001 12:25:04 pm
ylh# 25
THere are two ways (approaches) to gain knowledge:
1. ``Why we should``
2. ``Why we shouldn`t``
Both approaches compliment each other. One without the other is useless, narrow, and self-serving.
THere are two ways (approaches) to gain knowledge:
1. ``Why we should``
2. ``Why we shouldn`t``
Both approaches compliment each other. One without the other is useless, narrow, and self-serving.
#53 Posted by Urstruly on January 3, 2001 12:21:09 pm
Aamir # 34
``Its no need to opologize to Indians that Pakistan is not in near future going to see migration of jew ,hindu ,CHristians INTO pakistan ,for which ,Pakistan needs to prepare secularism in anticipation``
Gosh! Where did you get the idea that I was apologatic. Man! I speak to them with my knee on their chest but sometimes I am nice to nicer people. THis is not being apologetic.
``Its no need to opologize to Indians that Pakistan is not in near future going to see migration of jew ,hindu ,CHristians INTO pakistan ,for which ,Pakistan needs to prepare secularism in anticipation``
Gosh! Where did you get the idea that I was apologatic. Man! I speak to them with my knee on their chest but sometimes I am nice to nicer people. THis is not being apologetic.
#52 Posted by sadna on January 3, 2001 12:11:38 pm
http://www.booknotes.org/Transcript/?ProgramID=1657
``..he development of oil made a tremendous difference in every respect, one of which I think is important and has not been generally mentioned. The kind of Islam that is represented by Osama bin Laden, this radical, extreme kind of Islam, did originate in Arabia and--as far back as the 18th century--and it would have remained in Arabia, had it not been for oil.
Let me explain what I mean. Imagine that some such group as the Ku Klux Klan or the Aryan Nation or one of th--one of those were suddenly to come into the possession of unlimited wealth and use that money to set up schools and colleges all over the world, promoting their particular version of Christianity. Then you get an idea of what has happened to Islam as a result of the enormous wealth that oil has brought to some people in Saudi Arabia. It has enabled them to set up schools and colleges all over the Muslim world, teaching their brand of Islam, this kind of fanatical, extremist version of Islam which has thus acquired a--a scope, an expanse--an expansion which it could never otherwise have had. Without oil money, this kind of Islam would have remained a fringe group in a marginal country. ..``
``...what is sometimes overlooked is that the converse is also true: no representation without taxation. And with our[Oil] revenues, they didn`t need taxes; therefore, they didn`t need assemblies to levy taxes. And they were made independent of public opinion in their own countries with this untold wealth accruing from oil revenues. This greatly strengthened the power of autocratic governments, far greater than it had ever been in the past. Now if traditional Islamic government is authoritarian, but it is not dictatorial or despotic, it is governed under certain rules and so on. In modern times, the power of the author--the power of the ruler has been vastly augmented by these huge revenues so that he doesn`t need public support or public approval of his taxes. It has also been increased by all kinds of modern devices for surveillance and repression so that any tin pot dictator today wields far greater powers than were ever wielded by Suleyman the Magnificent or Harun al-Rashid or any of the legendary rulers of the Islamic past. ...``
``... think that there are many different causes. And one of them, for example, is Atlantic shipping. Countries bordering the Atlantic Ocean, like England and Holland and France and Portugal, had to build bigger, stronger ships, ships that could face the Atlantic. These could carry more guns and were, therefore, more effective in war. And they could carry cargoes greater distances, more cheaply, more safely and, therefore, more effective in peace.
So that in both respects, they outdid the shipping of the Mediterranean, the Indian Ocean, which simply didn`t need to be as big and as strong and as maneuverable. I think that`s a very important element in the change which took place when Atlantic fleets come into Eastern waters. Even a small country like Portugal or Holland can build a great empire in the East, defying all the mighty Eastern empires. And I think obviously there are many elements in that, but Atlantic vessels is part of it.
Another is the development of science. Now that is really a restatement of the question rather than an answer to the question because in the Middle Ages, they were in the forefront of science, and they continued to be for a little while after, but gradually they fell behind while the West advanced. Some people would say that the difference is the Reformation. Christendom went through a reformation and a Counter-Reformation. Islam has not done that yet, and some would argue that that is a factor.
Personally, I think that one of the major factors is the difference in the treatment of women. And this was off--difference--the treatment of women was often commented on by travelers both ways. Middle Eastern travelers to Europe talking with horror and disgust of the absurd freedom and deference accorded to women in this society. Visitors from the West to the Middle East talk with ill concealed envy of the privileges of the Muslim male dealing with his womenfolk. But it isn`t until a comparatively late stage that people suggest that this might have something to do with the civilizational difference.
And for me, the first and strongest case is that put by a Turkish writer called Nama Kamal in an article published in 1868. I quote it in there, in which he says that the main reason he says for our backwardness in 1868--the word backwardness was still permitted. He said, `The main reason for our backwardness as compared with the West is the way we treat our women; thereby depriving ourselves of the energies and talents of half the population.`
He uses a couple of striking metaphors. He says, `We treat women, at best, like jewels or musical instruments.` And then he goes on to talk about the damage that this does to the society. And he ends by saying how society, compared to the West, is like a human body that is paralyzed on one side. And Ataturk took up the same point in the early `20s when he founded and became first president of the Turkish Republic. We began with a campaign for women`s rights, an unlikely advocate, an Ottoman ...(unintelligible) general campaigning for women`s rights. But he put his case very clearly and simply. He said, `Our task now is to catch up with the modern world. We will not catch up with the modern world if we only modernize half the population.` I think he had a point. The Taliban might take note of that. ...``
``..he development of oil made a tremendous difference in every respect, one of which I think is important and has not been generally mentioned. The kind of Islam that is represented by Osama bin Laden, this radical, extreme kind of Islam, did originate in Arabia and--as far back as the 18th century--and it would have remained in Arabia, had it not been for oil.
Let me explain what I mean. Imagine that some such group as the Ku Klux Klan or the Aryan Nation or one of th--one of those were suddenly to come into the possession of unlimited wealth and use that money to set up schools and colleges all over the world, promoting their particular version of Christianity. Then you get an idea of what has happened to Islam as a result of the enormous wealth that oil has brought to some people in Saudi Arabia. It has enabled them to set up schools and colleges all over the Muslim world, teaching their brand of Islam, this kind of fanatical, extremist version of Islam which has thus acquired a--a scope, an expanse--an expansion which it could never otherwise have had. Without oil money, this kind of Islam would have remained a fringe group in a marginal country. ..``
``...what is sometimes overlooked is that the converse is also true: no representation without taxation. And with our[Oil] revenues, they didn`t need taxes; therefore, they didn`t need assemblies to levy taxes. And they were made independent of public opinion in their own countries with this untold wealth accruing from oil revenues. This greatly strengthened the power of autocratic governments, far greater than it had ever been in the past. Now if traditional Islamic government is authoritarian, but it is not dictatorial or despotic, it is governed under certain rules and so on. In modern times, the power of the author--the power of the ruler has been vastly augmented by these huge revenues so that he doesn`t need public support or public approval of his taxes. It has also been increased by all kinds of modern devices for surveillance and repression so that any tin pot dictator today wields far greater powers than were ever wielded by Suleyman the Magnificent or Harun al-Rashid or any of the legendary rulers of the Islamic past. ...``
``... think that there are many different causes. And one of them, for example, is Atlantic shipping. Countries bordering the Atlantic Ocean, like England and Holland and France and Portugal, had to build bigger, stronger ships, ships that could face the Atlantic. These could carry more guns and were, therefore, more effective in war. And they could carry cargoes greater distances, more cheaply, more safely and, therefore, more effective in peace.
So that in both respects, they outdid the shipping of the Mediterranean, the Indian Ocean, which simply didn`t need to be as big and as strong and as maneuverable. I think that`s a very important element in the change which took place when Atlantic fleets come into Eastern waters. Even a small country like Portugal or Holland can build a great empire in the East, defying all the mighty Eastern empires. And I think obviously there are many elements in that, but Atlantic vessels is part of it.
Another is the development of science. Now that is really a restatement of the question rather than an answer to the question because in the Middle Ages, they were in the forefront of science, and they continued to be for a little while after, but gradually they fell behind while the West advanced. Some people would say that the difference is the Reformation. Christendom went through a reformation and a Counter-Reformation. Islam has not done that yet, and some would argue that that is a factor.
Personally, I think that one of the major factors is the difference in the treatment of women. And this was off--difference--the treatment of women was often commented on by travelers both ways. Middle Eastern travelers to Europe talking with horror and disgust of the absurd freedom and deference accorded to women in this society. Visitors from the West to the Middle East talk with ill concealed envy of the privileges of the Muslim male dealing with his womenfolk. But it isn`t until a comparatively late stage that people suggest that this might have something to do with the civilizational difference.
And for me, the first and strongest case is that put by a Turkish writer called Nama Kamal in an article published in 1868. I quote it in there, in which he says that the main reason he says for our backwardness in 1868--the word backwardness was still permitted. He said, `The main reason for our backwardness as compared with the West is the way we treat our women; thereby depriving ourselves of the energies and talents of half the population.`
He uses a couple of striking metaphors. He says, `We treat women, at best, like jewels or musical instruments.` And then he goes on to talk about the damage that this does to the society. And he ends by saying how society, compared to the West, is like a human body that is paralyzed on one side. And Ataturk took up the same point in the early `20s when he founded and became first president of the Turkish Republic. We began with a campaign for women`s rights, an unlikely advocate, an Ottoman ...(unintelligible) general campaigning for women`s rights. But he put his case very clearly and simply. He said, `Our task now is to catch up with the modern world. We will not catch up with the modern world if we only modernize half the population.` I think he had a point. The Taliban might take note of that. ...``
#51 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on January 3, 2001 11:00:40 am
Peace Rally
To stop war between India-Pakistan
Date: Saturday, January 5, 2002
Time: 10:00 A.M.
Place: Union Square
San Francisco
Corner of Powell and Gary
Please be on time
Please urge your friends to attend. All peace loving people are invited to participate, regardless of nationality, color or creed.
#49 Posted by babu on January 3, 2001 9:01:03 am
Fatimah # 35
USA has a right to make alliances with foreign states. Some of them have benefited Europe, Japan very well. The only questionable alliance is with Israel. Even Israel is fairly restrained state. They treat Arab and Palestinians better than Arab states treat their citizens.
USA has been isolationist in the past. The rest of the world was not inclined to leave USA alone. The Taleban would be ruling Afghanistan if they kept a leash on Osama. Didn`t they claim that ?
If my neighbor is a lazy slob who spends his time drinking and gambling, I am not going to help him unless he agrees to mend his ways. Too bad if it hurts you.
#48 Posted by babu on January 3, 2001 9:01:03 am
hamzad afaqui # 22
Most of your complaints are about legalistic treaties. India and Pakistan have signed most of those treaties. Have India and Pakistan bothered to comply with them 100% ?
On the other hand US signs treaties they plan to comply with. A quick primer on US legal system: Treaties are as legally binding as the various sections of the constitution. It is not a light matter.
#47 Posted by jay on January 3, 2001 9:01:03 am
JIHADIC FRONTIER,
Increasing number of countries, including the muslim ones are recognising that pak frontiers are of a psecial nature, and need special condition to leave. Musheraff has indicated that there is a plan to name it as The jihadic Republic of pakistan. From dawn of today
Travel restrictions
Dubai, which had stopped issuing visas to Pakistani nationals, has now decided to oblige us provided we travel business class by Emirates Airlines only and make a deposit of Rs100,000, refundable upon return. Furthermore, the air ticket must be non-refundable.
Certainly, very few can afford to visit Dubai under such severe conditions.
Saudi Arabia, too, has made Umra very difficult by creating a lot of hurdles. Their new regulations do not apply to the Egyptians and Turks because their governments have refused to accept the new Saudi regulations.
Our government must take up these issues with the respective regimes, with whom we apparently have very good relations, to facilitate our travel to these countries.
Such restrictions from brotherly Muslim countries is indeed painful.
SALIM D. DADABHOY
Karachi
Increasing number of countries, including the muslim ones are recognising that pak frontiers are of a psecial nature, and need special condition to leave. Musheraff has indicated that there is a plan to name it as The jihadic Republic of pakistan. From dawn of today
Travel restrictions
Dubai, which had stopped issuing visas to Pakistani nationals, has now decided to oblige us provided we travel business class by Emirates Airlines only and make a deposit of Rs100,000, refundable upon return. Furthermore, the air ticket must be non-refundable.
Certainly, very few can afford to visit Dubai under such severe conditions.
Saudi Arabia, too, has made Umra very difficult by creating a lot of hurdles. Their new regulations do not apply to the Egyptians and Turks because their governments have refused to accept the new Saudi regulations.
Our government must take up these issues with the respective regimes, with whom we apparently have very good relations, to facilitate our travel to these countries.
Such restrictions from brotherly Muslim countries is indeed painful.
SALIM D. DADABHOY
Karachi
#46 Posted by ali1 on January 3, 2001 9:01:03 am
Reply # 39 scout
[you think men should shave their armpits? how revolutionary. i`m beginning to like your ideas.]
Most maulanas shave their armpits. I guess you are too much of a prude to ever find this out. Most males in rural Pakistan go to the nai to get their armpits shaved.... this you will find out once your parents marry you off to your cousin in the Seraiki belt.
[i agree with the rest of your post, we really need to get religion out of politics and social structures to get anywhere in this world]
This is only possible in Communist societies. Religion is very much part of politics in US, India etc. But this can be complicated, so go watch a Govinda Kapoor or Brad Pitt movie instead.
[you think men should shave their armpits? how revolutionary. i`m beginning to like your ideas.]
Most maulanas shave their armpits. I guess you are too much of a prude to ever find this out. Most males in rural Pakistan go to the nai to get their armpits shaved.... this you will find out once your parents marry you off to your cousin in the Seraiki belt.
[i agree with the rest of your post, we really need to get religion out of politics and social structures to get anywhere in this world]
This is only possible in Communist societies. Religion is very much part of politics in US, India etc. But this can be complicated, so go watch a Govinda Kapoor or Brad Pitt movie instead.
#45 Posted by jay on January 3, 2001 9:01:03 am
Hamidm 38,
The fundamental issue in pakistan is the conflict between the mohajirs and the locals. As far as I can guess, you are a local do not care much for the religion, the TNT is alien to you, and well jinnah, who was he? So you are for the secular, trying to hark back to the society of pre-pakistan days.
But there is another group, the mohajirs, the out come of a darwenian selection process who subscribe to the social values emnating from the TNT. They are the creators and the sustainers of the jihadic society that pakistan is evolving into. When you plunked in the ceremonial march, these are marching to the heights of kargill to become shaheeds.
Pakistanb is for the mohajirs, and they want the islamic republic. Tell me hamidm, pakistan ka matlab kya. Long live the islamic republic, and what the world needs is an iraquisation of this country so that the jihadic frontiers can be effectively controlled.
Secular, progressive pakistan is as absurd as vegetarian pirannahs, coke sipping dracula, and KKK memebers with mother teresa. Pl leave the jihadists alone.
regards and best wishes
jay
The fundamental issue in pakistan is the conflict between the mohajirs and the locals. As far as I can guess, you are a local do not care much for the religion, the TNT is alien to you, and well jinnah, who was he? So you are for the secular, trying to hark back to the society of pre-pakistan days.
But there is another group, the mohajirs, the out come of a darwenian selection process who subscribe to the social values emnating from the TNT. They are the creators and the sustainers of the jihadic society that pakistan is evolving into. When you plunked in the ceremonial march, these are marching to the heights of kargill to become shaheeds.
Pakistanb is for the mohajirs, and they want the islamic republic. Tell me hamidm, pakistan ka matlab kya. Long live the islamic republic, and what the world needs is an iraquisation of this country so that the jihadic frontiers can be effectively controlled.
Secular, progressive pakistan is as absurd as vegetarian pirannahs, coke sipping dracula, and KKK memebers with mother teresa. Pl leave the jihadists alone.
regards and best wishes
jay
#44 Posted by jay on January 3, 2001 9:01:03 am
Bhardwaj 33,
There is no need to waste so much of space to reproduce an article. For every article that blames the hindus for division, there are an equal number of articles that blames the muslims for it. For me that type of history is of no use, it has no predictive power, no extrpolative usefulness.
Who was responsible for partition has to be judged by the outcome. There were according to various estimates nearly 20 percent hindus in the region, now pakistan. Now there are only less than one percent. What happened to them, the pakistani believers of TNT ``eliminated` them. Now tell me who caused the partition, who believed in TNT. As a further extension you have blasphemy laws, created taliban. Now here is an extrapolation for you, pakistan will become more jihadic.
Now tell me about your version, hindus are the cause of division, why are so many muslims even now in india. FULL STOP.
There is no need to waste so much of space to reproduce an article. For every article that blames the hindus for division, there are an equal number of articles that blames the muslims for it. For me that type of history is of no use, it has no predictive power, no extrpolative usefulness.
Who was responsible for partition has to be judged by the outcome. There were according to various estimates nearly 20 percent hindus in the region, now pakistan. Now there are only less than one percent. What happened to them, the pakistani believers of TNT ``eliminated` them. Now tell me who caused the partition, who believed in TNT. As a further extension you have blasphemy laws, created taliban. Now here is an extrapolation for you, pakistan will become more jihadic.
Now tell me about your version, hindus are the cause of division, why are so many muslims even now in india. FULL STOP.
#43 Posted by M.A.Jinnah on January 3, 2001 9:01:03 am
#: 39
scout
hamidm #38,
``and first of all remove prohibition which, along with kite flying and hairy armpits, would be most visible sign of recovery from this insidious disease..``
you think men should shave their armpits? how revolutionary. i`m beginning to like your ideas.
i agree with the rest of your post, we really need to get religion out of politics and social structures to get anywhere in this world.
Your hero LIKES hairy armpits b/c it is UNISLAMIC& sign of `recovery` from Islam(disease)
I dont care if you like Hamidm,but dont misrepresent Islam
scout
hamidm #38,
``and first of all remove prohibition which, along with kite flying and hairy armpits, would be most visible sign of recovery from this insidious disease..``
you think men should shave their armpits? how revolutionary. i`m beginning to like your ideas.
i agree with the rest of your post, we really need to get religion out of politics and social structures to get anywhere in this world.
Your hero LIKES hairy armpits b/c it is UNISLAMIC& sign of `recovery` from Islam(disease)
I dont care if you like Hamidm,but dont misrepresent Islam
#42 Posted by semipreciousme on January 3, 2001 1:19:44 am
“Muslims in general and Afghanistan in particular need to clean up and open up their mind. Like Communism and Khmer Rouge, Islamic and Afghanistan problems are of their own creation. It is hypocrisy to loathe about decadence and filth halfway around the world while your own home is full of garbage.”
….well said, sameer saab….but i’m afraid the muslims most in need of a dire reality check are blinded to the realism of the world as it is today and can be found wandering and cutting-n-pasting about with visions of sugarplums and the islamic glory of yesteryears dancing in their heads….
….well said, sameer saab….but i’m afraid the muslims most in need of a dire reality check are blinded to the realism of the world as it is today and can be found wandering and cutting-n-pasting about with visions of sugarplums and the islamic glory of yesteryears dancing in their heads….
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