Taliban : An Analysis

Urstruly,

Secularism merely means: Separation of the state and clergy, and I believe we have achieved that more so than many other states.

Secularism also means equal rights for all, regardless of any distinction...here we have failed... But I dont see how secularism would infringe on Pakistan`s democracy...?

Hope this is a great year for all of us, except for those who derive happiness from the misfortune of others.

Things are looking so much better on the Pakistani scene.... what with the crackdown on militants and all.

I hope Pakistan continues to make positive changes in the year to come.

Peace & Luv & happiness :)

Babbu # 16

I liked this post because it was very constructive and positive.

``Secularism + free market economy + good relations with USA/Japan + good governance + emphasis on development of human resources``

My comments:

Secularism:

Should be an individual choice. In case of Paksitan it can never work and it will also cause the collapse of Democracy if and when there will be any. Secularism for India-most definitely.

Free Market Economy:

It is the greatest scam of the 20th century. It has no meaning for third world countries. FME is the honor among theives-the capital theives that is. Just try to answer one simple question: How can a third world country be Capitalist. In order to be a Capitalist you gotta have Capital. Excuse my eye sight but I dont see any-including with India.

``good relations with USA/Japan``

Agreed. No problemo. Why not if the same is reciprocated.

``+ good governance``

Agreed. None of the above can be achived without it.

+ emphasis on development of human resources

Agreed. There aint no other way.

Post # 15

My bubble has been pricked several times before-tell me something new.

I knew the day MODERN PAKISTANIS ,let that scum bag ,VIDYA N.S.Paul & MOST detesting of an act of any `SHAREEF`family could do even in Hindian families is ,.....let loose there woman NADIRA for this crazy Widower ,N.S./Paul to seduce woman from of all most restrictive of all society ---Islamic .

This Modern Pakistanis read Naipaul who writes two books after being nurtured & mothered by Muslim Girl ,BOTH against Muslims & Islam based not on erudition or even intelligence ,for Naipaul is neither a Historian nor anthropoligist by education.

But the western world is what it is with rspect to Islam ,for e.g. there celebration of Salman Rushdie & giving of Nobel to Naipaul for his abhorrence of Islam,just when world opinion was fully exploited by western media to smear in the ashes of Twin Tower 9-11 tragedy.

If Pakistan reverts to more radical ,it is these modernists to be blamed.After partition Pakistan was given free reign to even surpass conservative India.But what did they do with that freedom.Did they educate there women?..No Did they train there men for technological advancement? ..No ONly they developed FASHION SHOW ,FASHION model.I remember seing `see through `fashion show in Karachi & Lahore when India was making films like Do Raste AGIANST western values.

Like any rebound any back lash by Jamaat or Jaish is because these very modernist who have barterred there women for photo op with anyone who have been celebrated by west like NAIPAul ,rushdie,vINOD kHANNA (RAJNESH FOLLOWER & BJP CANDIDATE))

kABIR bEDI(DIVORCEE & SOAP OPERA chip & dale)

WE have our self to be blame before the illiterate in english ,madrsaah educated mass ,which do out number these influential `MODERN`in the sense of a teflon coating only rather any Newton,Fleming ,Edison,GrahamBell,which they never will be.

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The way of Jinnah

By Ardeshir Cowasjee

Mohammad Ali Jinnah, at Lahore, October 24, 1947: ``I would like to impress upon every Mussalman who has at heart the welfare and the prosperity of Pakistan, to avoid retaliation and to exercise restraint, because retaliation and violation of law and order will ultimately result in weakening the very foundations of the edifice you have cherished all these years to erect. Do your duty and have faith in God. There is no power on earth that can undo Pakistan.``

Wise words of warning, that went unheeded or unheard. Jinnah`s Pakistan died with him, with the death knell of September 11, 1948, and it took his talented countrymen a mere 23 years to undo what remained. By December 1971 the nation lay sundered in half.

Now, after the passage of over half a century, we have a leadership that is attempting to rebuild the country and the nation in the mould as visualized by its maker, Jinnah. Speaking to the people from Jinnah`s Mazar on December 25, commemorating the 125th anniversary of his birth, President General Pervez Musharraf told them that the way forward, the way he was attempting to take them, was Jinnah`s way, as defined by him. But to move forward ``we will have to step very cautiously.`` Whatever decisions he takes, said Musharraf, are taken with Jinnah`s vision of Pakistan in mind. Jinnah`s vision encompassed a welfare state drawing inspiration from the tenets of true Islam, built on the foundations of democracy, with respect and protection for the individual, with equal rights for men, women and children irrespective of their religious faith or political views.

He quoted from the speech made long ago, in 1941 by the country`s maker to the Punjab Muslim Students Federation :

``There are at least three main pillars which go to make a nation worthy of possessing a territory and running a government. One is education. Next, no nation and no people can ever do anything very much without making themselves economically powerful in commerce, trade and industry. And lastly, you must prepare yourselves for your defence, defence against external aggression and to maintain internal security.``

In tune with Jinnah`s enunciation of his creed in his never to be forgotten and always to be repeated time and time again speech of August 11 1947, Musharraf asked his countrymen to ``sink all religious and sectarian differences and show tolerance of each other`s beliefs, views and thoughts, to shun religious differences,`` as had the nation`s father when addressing the members of the Constituent Assembly. Religious intolerance, said Musharraf, has utterly blurred Jinnah`s vision. The nation has deviated from that vision to the extent that aside from being unable to tolerate other religions, ``we refuse to accommodate the views of the various sects of our own religion. We are killing each other for differences in fiqhs and maslaks. We have undermined Islam to a level that people of the world associate it with illiteracy, backwardness, intolerance, obscurantism and militancy.``

And what was it that Jinnah told his assembly members ? ``You are free, free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of state. As you know, history shows that in England conditions some time ago were much worse than those prevailing in India today.

``The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some states in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days when there is no discrimination, no distinction between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state.

The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist, what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the nation. Now I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal ``.

Now, from the very beginning, from the outset, the leaders of Pakistan who have followed Jinnah have distorted his words to suit their immediate expedient self-serving purposes. This particular passage from his most important address has been subject to deliberate distortion and misinterpretation, having inspired the dishonest dogmatists who misappropriated the country after his death. In the official biography of Jinnah commissioned by the Government of Pakistan, written by Hector Bolitho and published in 1954, it was brutally bowdlerized to falsely read: `` You may belong to any religion or caste or creed - that has nothing to do with the fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state. Now, I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal ...``.

We had to wait for an American, Professor Stanley Wolpert, to write what is the definitive biography of the man Jinnah as he really was - and he was commissioned by no one but himself. Yet, when the book was published in 1984 its distribution in Pakistan was proscribed because of one passage he had quoted from M C Chagla`s book, `Roses in December` which referred to Jinnah`s eating and drinking preferences.

Wolpert was put under much pressure (as he reminded us when he spoke at the Aga Khan University auditorium this December 26) when the government of General Zia-ul-Haq offered to buy thousands of copies of his book were he to excise that particular passage. Of course, he refused. The amount of research Wolpert has put into his book can be gauged from the 40-odd pages of Notes and Bibliography.

Back to MAJ and February 19, 1948, when he again stressed : ``But make no mistake, Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it. Islam demands from us the tolerance of other creeds and we welcome in closest association with us all those who of whatever creed are themselves willing and ready to play their part as true and loyal citizens of Pakistan.``

As he was to say a few days later: ``In any case, Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims - Hindus, Christians and Parsis. They are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.

What he tried to make clear on August 11, 1947 to the future legislators and administrators of his country is that ``the first duty of a government is to maintain law and order, so that the life, property and religious beliefs of its subjects are fully protected by the state.`` He told them he would not tolerate the evils of bribery, corruption, blackmarketeering and ``this great evil, the evil of nepotism and jobbery,`` the daily bread of powermongers. Little did he know that day that these prime evils were to become prerequisites for the survival of the politicians in and out of uniform and of the administrators of all ranks and grades for the maintenance of their power.

Musharraf admitted this on December 25 that ``corruption and nepotism have eaten the nation like termites from within``. He made an appeal to the so-called `elite`, the rich elite (most of them undeserving of the appellation) : ``Let society treat the corrupt with contempt so that the fear of God is put into them and they at least hide and feel ashamed instead of showing off their ill-gotten riches.`` Yes, general, you are right. But then would Mohammad Ali Jinnah approve of your National Accountability Bureau when it makes `deals` with the corrupt, with the robbers, and rather than extracting what it can from their ill-gotten gains, and then letting them stand trial and be sentenced and hopefully be sent to jail, it frees them, as reportedly is happening with the former chief of our Navy?

However, and whatever may happen, Jinnah`s enunciated vision for his country cannot be changed, no matter how invasive the censorship and bowdlerizing of his words. If we do now have a man intent upon focusing upon that vision, and with the strength and support to see that the vision becomes reality, we should be a grateful nation.

Communism and Islam

You are comparing a horse and a donkey

Urstruly # 8

The paradigm for success in most of East Asia:

Secularism + free market economy + good relations with USA/Japan + good governance + emphasis on development of human resources

India messed up on free market economy. Hence the current state.

Urstruly # 7

Sorry to prick the bubble. Taleban is a creation of Pakistani intelligence service. Pakistani backers supported the extreme Islamic ideology to appeal to rural Pusthuns, co-opt Saudi Wahabi dollars and to prevent secular nationalism among Pusthuns (so that they don`t complain about Durrand line). Some where down the line in 1996-98 they became the political vehicle for the aspirations of Pusthuns in Afghanistan. That explains the atrocities against the Tajiks, Hazaras. On top of it they gave assylum to Osama and allowed him to use Afghanistan as a training base for Osama`s organization. I will be glad to post zillions of articles to support it.

As far as murder of POWs in Mazar-e-Sharif, it is no different from the killing of Russian POWs and other foreigners who bothered to butt their heads in the internal affairs of Afghanistan. Quit whining.

Taleban and principles ?? What principles ??

History is written by winners. That is reality. Subash Chandra Bose is a loser. Not to the British, but to Gandhi/Nehru. In retrospect Tipu Sultan was a loser. He could not convince the Nizam of Hyderabad and the Marathas to join him against the British. In fact he (and his dad) weakened himself fighting other Indians. It is not like the citizens of Mysore were clamouring for the return of his rule.

romair # 3

Secularism has worked in Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and most of East Asia.

India economic problems have to do with socialism than secularism. Secularism has kept the country intact.

Secularism is a necessary condition for economic progress. Not sufficient in itself.

Islam is a guide for how individuals should think, act etc.. There is nothing in Islam that tells people how to run a modern state. Example: Using the Quranic quote on usury to disallow interest on loans is to ignore the time value of money in modern finance.

hamzad afaqui # 2

I am not an apologist for US governments. Some of the points are valid. Most of them are bogus. I made a quick rebuttal to several points.

1. US is a sovreign state. It has the right to withdraw from the ABM treaty. The ABM treaty has provisions which allow for that.

2. US has reservations about letting other countries inspect it sites because they fear the loss of secrets. US has no need for biological weapons. They have the most powerful nuclear arsenal. The countries mentioned have good reasons to develop biological weapons.

3. By signing a UN agreement on small arms do you think countries will stop selling small arms.

4. US was not elected to UN Human rights commission because of politics. Algeria, Burundi

China, Cuba, Congo, Libya, Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India, Sierra Leone, Sudan, Syria and Vietnam are on this commission. Do you want to take your chances with the judicial system of these states ?

5. US opposed International Criminal Court (ICC) Treaty because they felt it would be used to file frivlous cases against US military. Imagine the Taleban filing a case against US military for human right abuses.

6. Land Mines are cruel weapons. They are useful in deterring aggression by large armies. Certain states see the need for those weapons.

8. Electronic surveillance is critical for US national security. Now only they picked out the e-mails of Al Quedda members.

11. Why bother participate in a conference where you are going to be bashed ?

13. USA has the right to decide whether it wants to trade with Cuba.

14. US has observed the CTBT in spite of non-ratifying it.

15. Cold war stuff.

16. USA has the right to quit any international body it wants to. That does not make it a rogue state.

18. In what way do women in USA are discriminated ? Are those forms of discrimination eliminated in other countries that have signed the treaty ?

19. In what way are the rights of kids in USA violated ?

22. On foreign aid, USA makes up with more access for foreign countries to its markets. Foreign trade has done more for the people of developing world than foreign aid which has enriched the pockets of elite as opposed to helping the poor.

Sameer JB

Nice work...the comparision between the extremist, reactionary Khmer Rouge and the Taliban was well made, and a connection I had not made before. You had written that the Khmer Rouge massacred Cambodians to ensure their frightening delusions of ``purity``; I am particularly interested in this aspect of your presentation. As our world grows increasing multicultural, multireligious and multiracial, (although arguably, it has to some extent always been that way) our governments must be able to serve our countries in a humane and economically, politically and socially equal manner. I am extremely skeptical about whether this is possible in many of the Islamic cultures that exist today...any thoughts on the current govt. in Uzbekistan, btw?

regards

Posting it here also. Studebaker.

Jan 1 2002: Siddharth comments on Taliban - Another Khmer Rouge? by J. B. Sameer

Mr.Sameer

writes,

``The topics of past perfection, delusions of grandeur and superstitious confidence in invulnerability must be limited to Islamic Bollywood only.``

A prejudiced,biased & tainted summary of writers believes.

Taleban may have been a household world in Pakistan ,the place of origin of Mr.Author ,but billion minus few million Taleban supporter in Pakistan,has no meaning from Bangladesh to Morocco & indonesia to Malaysia .It may be being close to home ,Author thinks world of Punjab Pakistan is world of ISLAM ,it isnt.

Its fashionable to bash islam for majority of English reader-ship AND IT BECOMES DOUBLE EFFECTIVE WHEN ITS A CAMAFLOUGED MUSLIM DOING IT .

Why are you hiding the truth.Are you nutts to think you can deny that you are a Pakistani Muslim.Only if denial was as good as plastic surgery in altering our identity .People like you are suspect on both sides of the line divide .I feel sorry for patients like you ,inflicted with there own antibodies attacking itself like auto immune disease .

India pullout troops from the borders

Nuclear Threat make Hindians Buckle ....he.he..he..he

India welcomes Pak action against terrorist



leaders

NDTV Correspondent

Monday, December 31, 2001 (New Delhi):

India has termed reports from Pakistan on arrests of leaders of terrorist outfits as a ``step forward in the correct direction``. India has blamed the Pakistan-based terrorist outfits, Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) and Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT), for carrying out the December 13 suicide attack on Parliament.

``If this information is confirmed, then it is a step forward in correct direction,`` External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh told reporters after a one and-a-half hour long meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) chaired by Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee.

He was replying to a question whether New Delhi was satisfied with actions being taken by the Pervez Musharraf regime against JeM chief Maulana Masood Azhar and LeT founder Hafiz Mohammed Saeed.

Singh said India had received information about ``some action`` having been taken by Pakistani authorities against LeT and JeM including arrest of leaders and raids being conducted on some premises of these organisations.

``We hope that such actions against terrorist groups targeting India including Jammu and Kashmir would be pursued vigorously and cross-border terrorism eliminated``, Singh added.

On the Pakistani demand that India should furnish evidence against these terrorist groups, Singh said ``It is strange to talk about this`` when the country was a victim of terrorist aggression.

``So far as the evidence of terrorist activities is concerned, it has been provided in a sufficient manner to international community``, he said adding it was largely on that basis that Islamabad had taken action against the terrorist outfits.

Singh said India would be handing over a list to Pakistan High Commission here of terrorists and criminals, who had taken refuge in that country. He, however, did not give out any further details including the number of terrorists and criminals named in the list.

He said India has been informing the Interpol about the activities of these terrorist outfits leading to ``red alert`` being issued against them by the Paris-based organisation.

On whether the government was satisfied with the US efforts to contain Pakistan sponsored cross-border terrorism, the External Affairs Minister said Washington had made a clear commitment to stamp out terrorism globally.

The Cabinet Committee on Security discussed essential issues concerning India`s security in view of the December 13 attack and also the international and regional developments after the incident.

Diplomatic means

Defence Minister George Fernandes today said while India was trying to make Pakistan accede to its demands over terrorism through diplomatic means, New Delhi would take whatever steps which become essential if these attempts failed.

``So far we have concentrated on the diplomatic offensive and this will continue till one concludes there is an end of the road in terms of diplomacy,`` he said.

Addressing troops of the Army and Air Force at several forward locations in the Western Sector, Fernandes said the diplomatic efforts were ``perhaps likely`` to bring results ``but in an unlikely event of this not happening, then one will have to take decisions and these decisions will be very demanding``.

He also took a broadside at the US, saying its objective in the war against terrorism was limited to catching or killing Osama bin Laden and had done nothing ``more than rhetoric`` in ``making Pakistan understand``.

Asserting that no decision had been taken so far on whether India should go to war to achieve a win against terrorism, Fernandes said ``efforts are on to resolve the situation through diplomatic efforts`` and Prime Minister Vajpayee and External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh were engaged in it at the moment.

Stressing that Pakistan still did not appear to be honest in its actions against terrorists, Fernandes said it ``should understand and accept how big a sin it has committed``.

``We don`t want any such situation where there could be a lot of loss in this region,`` he said, adding Pakistan has thrust the proxy war on India over the last decade and the world should see and make Islamabad desist from it. ``If it is not done, we will do whatever is needed,`` he asserted.

Lauding the G-8 statement asking Pakistan to meet the demands of India, he said it indicates ``we are on the right track``. He said the European Union, the US and the UK have also told Pakistan to act against terrorists.

Jaitley tells Pak to tackle terrorism on its eastern border

India has said that it has given Pakistan a list of terrorists involved in crimes in India and demanded they be handed over for trial.

``A list of terrorists involved in crimes in India has been given to Pakistan. If these terrorists are handed over, then certainly I think a situation more conducive to both the countries (for talks) can arise,`` Union Law Minister Arun Jaitley told CNN`s ``Late Edition`` programme.

Jaitley made the remarks when asked how close India and Pakistan were to a war. ``We do hope that such a situation does not arise where we have to go to a war. But the entire onus of that will depend on the kind of stand Pakistan takes,`` he said.

Asked if Prime Minister Vajpayee would talk to Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf at the Kathmandu SAARC summit next month, Jaitley said, ``Well, it does not appear that the situation Pakistan is creating is conducive to a dialogue.``

``Pakistan can`t be encouraging this kind of cross-border insurgency. In the attack on Parliament, all the five terrorists killed were Pakistanis. There has been voluminous evidence of involvement of organizations within that country (Pakistan) in this attack and then they say: Let us have a dialogue,`` the Law Minister said.

Referring to Pakistan Foreign Minister Abdul Sattar`s demand for evidence for acting against the terrorists, Jaitley said Maulana Masood Azhar heads an organization, which is responsible for the attack on Parliament and was released from Indian prison through ``the coercive process of hijacking a plane``.

``Does the Pakistan Foreign Minister still need evidence?`` he said. Jaitley said actions by Pakistan against terrorists could not be ``ornamental in terms of making public announcements and after a few days freezing their (terrorist groups) accounts allowing money to flow out``.

Jaitley said while Sattar had agreed to hand over Osama bin Laden, if apprehended in Pakistan, to the US, he cannot have a different standard when it came to terrorists on Pakistan`s eastern border.

Asked what India expected US President Bush to do to reduce Indo-Pak tension, he replied that the international community should have the same yardstick and same standard which was adopted for the Taliban and bin Laden in relation to the September 11 attack on US.

``Whichever part of the world terrorists commit offences should be treated at par and we expect the same standard to be applied.`` Jaitley added that greater pressure should be brought on Pakistan to act against terrorists and their organizations operating on its soil. (With PTI inputs)

Other Top Stories

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Are you still watching CNN & still view yourself as half-intelligent?ALWAYS ALWAYS believe ANY news which is AGAINST US.Because that is where your salvation lies.

Or are you still enjoying licking their boot for a fistfull of dollars up your arse?__________________________________________________

Has the time come to remind the British & American thugs that great ditty by Kipling about Afghan plains & the cutting up of the dying baboons?A grand spectacle for the world to see?

Rejoice!The time is not far for such a world event.

Verily!Allah works in mysterious ways.

__________________________________________________

Sameer

``For Pakistanis, their interests are better served by amalgamation of rich native cultural heritage with only a sprinkle of Islamic Civilization.``

When a country is created by the TNT, there is no chance for such a way of thinking. Anything indian becomes an anathema to the pakis, they have to search for something islamic. And again there is problem, what is really islamic has been claimed or is symbolised by saudi. devoid of anything cultural inclusing the basant festival, pakistanis have to go for the real mccoy version of islam, the taliban, the madrassa and the jihadists. i do believe that theat is the only cultural space available for pakistan and whether you accept it or not, pakistan will become increasingly jihadist, essentially in response to the question, layilaha illlalla, pakistan ka matlab kya.

One man, call him the sole spokesman, or the senile spokes man, is not competant to answer that. It has to be answered by the millions of pakistanis, and men from the madrassas scattered across the country have the answers.

``For Pakistanis, their interests are better served by amalgamation of rich native cultural heritage with only a sprinkle of Islamic Civilization.``

The ``experiment`` has failed miserably in most of the Muslim World, especially, in Arab world where it was called Pan Arab Nationalism under Nasir. It has also failed under Bhutto senior who did try to do so with fantastic concepts such as Islami Socialism etc. with the help of Maulana Whisky and other Jhonny Walkers but it backfired miserably.

The problem is the lack of understanding of this religion when some impossible demands are made. It is the nature of this religion (Islam) that it makes culture its subset but it never becomes the subset of culture. That is the reason it is universal as compared to localized religions like Hinduism where Hindusim remains a cultural subset. The problem still is looking at Islam with with Hinduist paradigm whereas it should be analysed objectively.

So my friend it is time to go back to the roots-sooner or later-fundamentalism it is-like it or not.