Taliban : An Analysis
Sameer January 1, 2002
#159 Posted by semipreciousme on January 7, 2001 9:41:38 am
Samina:
``Semiprecious
You are absolutely right...the duo are utterly loathsome. I now have a definition for ``beneath contempt``.
How have you been lately?``
....pretty good....eating...catching up with friends who`re here for winter break...eating...
and more eating...(yeah, i`m trying to give anNy a run for her money:))
``Semiprecious
You are absolutely right...the duo are utterly loathsome. I now have a definition for ``beneath contempt``.
How have you been lately?``
....pretty good....eating...catching up with friends who`re here for winter break...eating...
and more eating...(yeah, i`m trying to give anNy a run for her money:))
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#158 Posted by rajanjua on January 7, 2001 12:12:25 am
``..In fact, you have yet again over simplified and have obscured the stake - Islamists, by definition would exhibit the preference of Islam, yet very many recognize that Islam is not the only player on the stage - the stake is the what kind of secular - should it be ``objective``, where in hostility towards traditional religions does not arise or is it to be ``subjective,`` wherein secularism will certainly lead to ``profanation`` and hostility towards a public role for religion? Don`t you think it is a tremendous compromise and a realization of fact that adherents of a religion, whose conviction it is that God is omniscient, that is his Law is public, for the public - nevertheless, agree that there are other convictions that must be accommodated in the public sphere? Can we ask any less of those whose conviction is to the secular to demonstrate a similar realization?``
What you said can actually be writtem in a much more concise manner - Let me spell it out: b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t.
Religion is a personal matter - it should have no role in the public life - otherwise disgusting things like hudood ordinance and blasphemy laws are created.
What you said can actually be writtem in a much more concise manner - Let me spell it out: b-u-l-l-s-h-i-t.
Religion is a personal matter - it should have no role in the public life - otherwise disgusting things like hudood ordinance and blasphemy laws are created.
#157 Posted by hobbyty on January 7, 2001 12:12:25 am
Hamidm
Some of your observations are ``spot on``. Oh well, back to the drawing board.
We are all aware that a little education is a dangerous thing - Allah save us, Allah redeems us.
By the way, congratulations are in order, you have moved from `pedantic sophistry`` to `chicanery`` - MashAllah, ``progress`` - The self recognizes no need for civility, huge sections of society can simply be discarded - then they moan that itis they who are over looked - Steady on, man: Argument,reason, scholarship, not a display of your frayed nerves is required. The greater the resistance, the greater the crumbling - I urge you to engage reason and forget your fear - if those you oppose do not know the correct way, can you say you do? and if not, don`t you have a responsibility to intellectually, honestly, explore? sure you do, and you will, in your own time.
As for my call seeking the ``good`` by accomodating each to it`s realm of specialization - reasonable person would at least explore the idea.
You don`t have worry about giving humble persons who seek the guidance of God a chance for anything - sit back, relax, exercise your free will, or not - God is control.
Yaam-mo be God-intoxicated AND - luvin it! Cheers!
#156 Posted by Shah on January 7, 2001 12:12:25 am
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#155 Posted by saminashah on January 7, 2001 12:12:25 am
Hobbyty
Your post raised some interesting issues in terms of the need for millions of humans to impose some meaning and order on their lives...I must say I couldn`t quite follow the connections you were making in terms of Nietzche, Foucault and Levi-Stauss...viz Foucault, if you are referring to his deconstruction of the dehumanizing systems of order imposed on society, let me know...Levi-Strauss focuses on the structure of myth and language...but not quite sure what your getting at..yes secular humanism is a form of spritual connection, and I don`t see it as an unreasonable response to the growing diversity of our worlds...
Mezekiel was interesting because he comes from a part of the developing world that will deal with the conflicts of fundamentalism, has an Islamic population and is in desparate economic straits. I agree that his comments could have encompassed class, development, etc. issues, but remember that he was addressing an audience of writers...I find it interesting that his book will interrogate/imagine the Christian involvement in
the Crusades, which is a feat of imagination.
Your post raised some interesting issues in terms of the need for millions of humans to impose some meaning and order on their lives...I must say I couldn`t quite follow the connections you were making in terms of Nietzche, Foucault and Levi-Stauss...viz Foucault, if you are referring to his deconstruction of the dehumanizing systems of order imposed on society, let me know...Levi-Strauss focuses on the structure of myth and language...but not quite sure what your getting at..yes secular humanism is a form of spritual connection, and I don`t see it as an unreasonable response to the growing diversity of our worlds...
Mezekiel was interesting because he comes from a part of the developing world that will deal with the conflicts of fundamentalism, has an Islamic population and is in desparate economic straits. I agree that his comments could have encompassed class, development, etc. issues, but remember that he was addressing an audience of writers...I find it interesting that his book will interrogate/imagine the Christian involvement in
the Crusades, which is a feat of imagination.
#153 Posted by sadna on January 6, 2001 11:49:14 pm
saminashah #122
``Here are some excerpts from an interview with the Ethiopian writer Nega Mezlekia, who has recently published a book entitled The God Who Begat a Jackal. I found it in our latest issue of Poets and Writers; you may be able to locate the full text at www.pw.org/mag.``
Thanks, it was most interesting.
He says and you quote
``And I can say with a very high degree of certainty that there will be a flare up of huge conflict in sub-Sahara Africa and part of the Middle East, and what have you within the next decade or so, something that hasn`t been seen for generations. And this is awful. And this can be checked by introducing a number of measures...the West should recognize there is a problem and should try and address these issues, help that part of the world address these issues.``
Perhaps the US government is restricted in its involvements by what it can get the Congress to fund? In any case, it may be best if Western initiatives to address festering issues are limited to motivating concerned African nations themselves to address these issues, for example isn`t there a grouping called Organization of African Unity?
Also, perhaps another way to get the world to look at its `darker corners` before disasters could be this : that the UN make it a habit to focus on one continent each year, and use its various organisations make an almighty fuss about each in rotation.
``Here are some excerpts from an interview with the Ethiopian writer Nega Mezlekia, who has recently published a book entitled The God Who Begat a Jackal. I found it in our latest issue of Poets and Writers; you may be able to locate the full text at www.pw.org/mag.``
Thanks, it was most interesting.
He says and you quote
``And I can say with a very high degree of certainty that there will be a flare up of huge conflict in sub-Sahara Africa and part of the Middle East, and what have you within the next decade or so, something that hasn`t been seen for generations. And this is awful. And this can be checked by introducing a number of measures...the West should recognize there is a problem and should try and address these issues, help that part of the world address these issues.``
Perhaps the US government is restricted in its involvements by what it can get the Congress to fund? In any case, it may be best if Western initiatives to address festering issues are limited to motivating concerned African nations themselves to address these issues, for example isn`t there a grouping called Organization of African Unity?
Also, perhaps another way to get the world to look at its `darker corners` before disasters could be this : that the UN make it a habit to focus on one continent each year, and use its various organisations make an almighty fuss about each in rotation.
#152 Posted by saminashah on January 6, 2001 10:05:29 pm
Afaqui Sahib,
Actually, you have been the only one cursing and posting one dimensional, badly written, jahil-tribes.
Lest your memory fail you: in a discussion of the checks and balances, plurality and the inherent tensions in maintaining the tolerance of free speech required in American democracy, you could only fixate on strippers. But then you are probably well aware that the complexities and shared responsibilities in a democratic society require a kind of vision, respect and commitment that would hurt the brains of those who want easy answers that only benefit them.
Actually, you have been the only one cursing and posting one dimensional, badly written, jahil-tribes.
Lest your memory fail you: in a discussion of the checks and balances, plurality and the inherent tensions in maintaining the tolerance of free speech required in American democracy, you could only fixate on strippers. But then you are probably well aware that the complexities and shared responsibilities in a democratic society require a kind of vision, respect and commitment that would hurt the brains of those who want easy answers that only benefit them.
#150 Posted by hamzadafaqui on January 6, 2001 10:05:29 pm
CNN----Certainly Not News can never report this.
Muslims are alert & active the world over---REJOICE!
__________________________________________________
Mandela to Apologize for Supporting U.S. on Terror War
by Farah Khan
JOHANNESBURG - Former South African president Nelson Mandela will hold meetings with Muslim leaders this month to apologize for his originally vociferous and unqualified support to the U.S.-led coalition`s war on terrorism in Afghanistan.
South Africa`s almost 1-million strong Muslim population was angered first by a joint press conference last November between U.S. president George Bush and Mandela in which the former president expressed such support.
He confirmed his views during a December meeting at a mosque in the port city of Durban and also said he believed Osama bin Laden should be captured and tried for the Sep 11 attacks on New York and Washington and that his Al-Qaeda network should be smashed.
At the time, Mandela was criticized for not displaying the statesmanship and even-handedness that characterizes his politics. The Muslim Youth Movement criticized him for not displaying commitment to the rule of law, which demands a trial before conviction.
Last week, Mandela toned down his war-talk to appease a constituency that has always been important to the ruling African National Congress (ANC). He said his initial statements had been ``one-sided and overstated``.
He also apologized for giving the impression of being ``insensitive and uncaring about the suffering inflicted upon the Afghan people and country`` in the course of the war against terrorism.
Mandela has written to Bush conveying his qualification.
In addition to Mandela`s atonement, deputy president Jacob Zuma also attended another Durban mosque this week to convey the same message.
Wearing a checkered Palestinian scarf and a kafiyeh (Muslim skullcap), he called for a more fair application of the term ``terrorism``.
Zuma said it was not even-handed to apply the epithet only to the attacks on the United States and not to the fall-out experienced by Afghan civilians in the course of the war on terrorism.
Both the government and Mandela have, however, remained unreserved in their condemnation of the Sep 11 attacks.
In his statement, Mandela emphasized that, ``Our opposition to all forms of terrorism remains total and we support the stand of our government in joining international efforts to combat and eradicate terrorism. Those responsible for the terror acts of Sep 11 must be apprehended and brought to trial.``
Mandela`s damage-control exercise came about after meetings with family, friends and advisers who informed him of the anger his initial statements had provoked.
``It`s a very sensible approach,`` believes John Stremlau, a professor of International Relations at the University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg. ``The war on terrorism should not divide South Africans among themselves.``
In this, said Stremlau, Mandela and the South Africa government were using the same strategy employed by Bush. ``You don`t want your Islamic constituency to view the war on terrorism as an attack on Islam.``
Mandela was admonished when he first issued his broadsides. For decades, said his critics, the ANC had been labeled ``terrorists``.
Muslims have welcomed Mandela`s apology, while a leading newspaper Business Day has heaped praise on him.
``By humbling himself and revisiting his position on the bombing campaign, Madiba (Mandela) has once again demonstrated his greatness in a world where politicians` egos often get in the way of reason and good judgment,`` it said.
Muslims are alert & active the world over---REJOICE!
__________________________________________________
Mandela to Apologize for Supporting U.S. on Terror War
by Farah Khan
JOHANNESBURG - Former South African president Nelson Mandela will hold meetings with Muslim leaders this month to apologize for his originally vociferous and unqualified support to the U.S.-led coalition`s war on terrorism in Afghanistan.
South Africa`s almost 1-million strong Muslim population was angered first by a joint press conference last November between U.S. president George Bush and Mandela in which the former president expressed such support.
He confirmed his views during a December meeting at a mosque in the port city of Durban and also said he believed Osama bin Laden should be captured and tried for the Sep 11 attacks on New York and Washington and that his Al-Qaeda network should be smashed.
At the time, Mandela was criticized for not displaying the statesmanship and even-handedness that characterizes his politics. The Muslim Youth Movement criticized him for not displaying commitment to the rule of law, which demands a trial before conviction.
Last week, Mandela toned down his war-talk to appease a constituency that has always been important to the ruling African National Congress (ANC). He said his initial statements had been ``one-sided and overstated``.
He also apologized for giving the impression of being ``insensitive and uncaring about the suffering inflicted upon the Afghan people and country`` in the course of the war against terrorism.
Mandela has written to Bush conveying his qualification.
In addition to Mandela`s atonement, deputy president Jacob Zuma also attended another Durban mosque this week to convey the same message.
Wearing a checkered Palestinian scarf and a kafiyeh (Muslim skullcap), he called for a more fair application of the term ``terrorism``.
Zuma said it was not even-handed to apply the epithet only to the attacks on the United States and not to the fall-out experienced by Afghan civilians in the course of the war on terrorism.
Both the government and Mandela have, however, remained unreserved in their condemnation of the Sep 11 attacks.
In his statement, Mandela emphasized that, ``Our opposition to all forms of terrorism remains total and we support the stand of our government in joining international efforts to combat and eradicate terrorism. Those responsible for the terror acts of Sep 11 must be apprehended and brought to trial.``
Mandela`s damage-control exercise came about after meetings with family, friends and advisers who informed him of the anger his initial statements had provoked.
``It`s a very sensible approach,`` believes John Stremlau, a professor of International Relations at the University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg. ``The war on terrorism should not divide South Africans among themselves.``
In this, said Stremlau, Mandela and the South Africa government were using the same strategy employed by Bush. ``You don`t want your Islamic constituency to view the war on terrorism as an attack on Islam.``
Mandela was admonished when he first issued his broadsides. For decades, said his critics, the ANC had been labeled ``terrorists``.
Muslims have welcomed Mandela`s apology, while a leading newspaper Business Day has heaped praise on him.
``By humbling himself and revisiting his position on the bombing campaign, Madiba (Mandela) has once again demonstrated his greatness in a world where politicians` egos often get in the way of reason and good judgment,`` it said.
#149 Posted by hamzadafaqui on January 6, 2001 9:19:17 pm
CAUTION!
If you are NOT a kanjar/kanjaree then please ignore this post & move on.
Also if you are NOT a Moffakka(some people do NOT consider these vulgar because it is in their masters` language),& NOT a Dickhead(again masters` language),do NOT write sh/it(lets be polite,censor censor),arse/-hole(again masters` language,hence good!) blah blah blah...You guys understand--you are NOT that stupid as you petend to be....Vulgarity you are well-versed in.In english language it is widely practised,considered normal,is a sign of being ``advanced``,``liberal`` ``modern``.In fact some c/unts thrive in such climate...the naked wiggly-arse kind.Now please go & fart well.It is not vulgar in english.
You love to be hairdresser(not Naai/nayaan),montessori teacher(not an aatoo buaa),baby sitter(not an ayaah or annnaa) Because Kanjar is bad but modern,liberal,& non-practising is Good? Is that so!
Never forget that the time is approaching fast when the Bhoora-goraas will be snuffed out of their toraa-boraas?There is NO majority silent or otherwise.There is only the vulgar,naked,hooker/pimp kind which is VISIBLE because of its baighairtee--like an Indian movie.
PS:I heard an Osama admirer,US born & bred,perhaps white,english speaking(the real McCoy---with the ``works``)rammed his plane into a building in Florida.Two more crashed same day?
Is this all true?
Are you preventing your( born & bred here) children from exercising their religious followings?Are you exasperated---``oh what is this world coming to``?Do you find all your english-education(Paki-style) going down the drain & are you going cazy?-then RELAX!
This is happening to ALL haramees & those weaned on haraam income of their DADDYS(not abbajaans) in Pakistan(Civil service/army/multi-national RISHVAT KHORES)---that is YOU!And what is happening to you IS happening to others too!
__________________________________________________
Held over by great public demand!--Encore!
Saimashah,tahmad,sigalpha235.
So it really hits where it hurts.Does it?
If you do not see yourself in this mirror,ignore it!
It is meant for those who DO---and they KNOW it.Just enjoy the barbecue.
Muslim countries must be ETHICALLY(sic) cleansed of the kanjars & kanjarees.The idea is to hurt & offend those who ridicule Islam,muslims,& islamic values....you guys are at least neutrals.
But if you guys want to be some do gooders--learn to be equal opportunity offenders.
_________________________________________________
REPRODUCED for the benefit of others---& will be repeated once every so often.
[Some more ``good`` news for those who gloat about their adultery,fornication,drinking,and vicariously enjoy their wives,mothers & daughters` doubling as no-fee hookers & themselves acting as no-load pimps.
``The aroma of kabaab is not afar
Oh where is the sizzle,burn,& char``]
If you are NOT a kanjar/kanjaree then please ignore this post & move on.
Also if you are NOT a Moffakka(some people do NOT consider these vulgar because it is in their masters` language),& NOT a Dickhead(again masters` language),do NOT write sh/it(lets be polite,censor censor),arse/-hole(again masters` language,hence good!) blah blah blah...You guys understand--you are NOT that stupid as you petend to be....Vulgarity you are well-versed in.In english language it is widely practised,considered normal,is a sign of being ``advanced``,``liberal`` ``modern``.In fact some c/unts thrive in such climate...the naked wiggly-arse kind.Now please go & fart well.It is not vulgar in english.
You love to be hairdresser(not Naai/nayaan),montessori teacher(not an aatoo buaa),baby sitter(not an ayaah or annnaa) Because Kanjar is bad but modern,liberal,& non-practising is Good? Is that so!
Never forget that the time is approaching fast when the Bhoora-goraas will be snuffed out of their toraa-boraas?There is NO majority silent or otherwise.There is only the vulgar,naked,hooker/pimp kind which is VISIBLE because of its baighairtee--like an Indian movie.
PS:I heard an Osama admirer,US born & bred,perhaps white,english speaking(the real McCoy---with the ``works``)rammed his plane into a building in Florida.Two more crashed same day?
Is this all true?
Are you preventing your( born & bred here) children from exercising their religious followings?Are you exasperated---``oh what is this world coming to``?Do you find all your english-education(Paki-style) going down the drain & are you going cazy?-then RELAX!
This is happening to ALL haramees & those weaned on haraam income of their DADDYS(not abbajaans) in Pakistan(Civil service/army/multi-national RISHVAT KHORES)---that is YOU!And what is happening to you IS happening to others too!
__________________________________________________
Held over by great public demand!--Encore!
Saimashah,tahmad,sigalpha235.
So it really hits where it hurts.Does it?
If you do not see yourself in this mirror,ignore it!
It is meant for those who DO---and they KNOW it.Just enjoy the barbecue.
Muslim countries must be ETHICALLY(sic) cleansed of the kanjars & kanjarees.The idea is to hurt & offend those who ridicule Islam,muslims,& islamic values....you guys are at least neutrals.
But if you guys want to be some do gooders--learn to be equal opportunity offenders.
_________________________________________________
REPRODUCED for the benefit of others---& will be repeated once every so often.
[Some more ``good`` news for those who gloat about their adultery,fornication,drinking,and vicariously enjoy their wives,mothers & daughters` doubling as no-fee hookers & themselves acting as no-load pimps.
``The aroma of kabaab is not afar
Oh where is the sizzle,burn,& char``]
#148 Posted by hamzadafaqui on January 6, 2001 9:19:11 pm
CAUTION!
If you are NOT a kanjar/kanjaree then please ignore this post & move on.
Also if you are NOT a Moffakka(some people do NOT consider these vulgar because it is in their masters` language),& NOT a Dickhead(again masters` language),do NOT write sh/it(lets be polite,censor censor),arse/-hole(again masters` language,hence good!) blah blah blah...You guys understand--you are NOT that stupid as you petend to be....Vulgarity you are well-versed in.In english language it is widely practised,considered normal,is a sign of being ``advanced``,``liberal`` ``modern``.In fact some c/unts thrive in such climate...the naked wiggly-arse kind.Now please go & fart well.It is not vulgar in english.
You love to be hairdresser(not Naai/nayaan),montessori teacher(not an aatoo buaa),baby sitter(not an ayaah or annnaa) Because Kanjar is bad but modern,liberal,& non-practising is Good? Is that so!
Never forget that the time is approaching fast when the Bhoora-goraas will be snuffed out of their toraa-boraas?There is NO majority silent or otherwise.There is only the vulgar,naked,hooker/pimp kind which is VISIBLE because of its baighairtee--like an Indian movie.
PS:I heard an Osama admirer,US born & bred,perhaps white,english speaking(the real McCoy---with the ``works``)rammed his plane into a building in Florida.Two more crashed same day?
Is this all true?
Are you preventing your( born & bred here) children from exercising their religious followings?Are you exasperated---``oh what is this world coming to``?Do you find all your english-education(Paki-style) going down the drain & are you going cazy?-then RELAX!
This is happening to ALL haramees & those weaned on haraam income of their DADDYS(not abbajaans) in Pakistan(Civil service/army/multi-national RISHVAT KHORES)---that is YOU!And what is happening to you IS happening to others too!
__________________________________________________
Held over by great public demand!--Encore!
Saimashah,tahmad,sigalpha235.
So it really hits where it hurts.Does it?
If you do not see yourself in this mirror,ignore it!
It is meant for those who DO---and they KNOW it.Just enjoy the barbecue.
Muslim countries must be ETHICALLY(sic) cleansed of the kanjars & kanjarees.The idea is to hurt & offend those who ridicule Islam,muslims,& islamic values....you guys are at least neutrals.
But if you guys want to be some do gooders--learn to be equal opportunity offenders.
_________________________________________________
REPRODUCED for the benefit of others---& will be repeated once every so often.
[Some more ``good`` news for those who gloat about their adultery,fornication,drinking,and vicariously enjoy their wives,mothers & daughters` doubling as no-fee hookers & themselves acting as no-load pimps.
``The aroma of kabaab is not afar
Oh where is the sizzle,burn,& char``]
If you are NOT a kanjar/kanjaree then please ignore this post & move on.
Also if you are NOT a Moffakka(some people do NOT consider these vulgar because it is in their masters` language),& NOT a Dickhead(again masters` language),do NOT write sh/it(lets be polite,censor censor),arse/-hole(again masters` language,hence good!) blah blah blah...You guys understand--you are NOT that stupid as you petend to be....Vulgarity you are well-versed in.In english language it is widely practised,considered normal,is a sign of being ``advanced``,``liberal`` ``modern``.In fact some c/unts thrive in such climate...the naked wiggly-arse kind.Now please go & fart well.It is not vulgar in english.
You love to be hairdresser(not Naai/nayaan),montessori teacher(not an aatoo buaa),baby sitter(not an ayaah or annnaa) Because Kanjar is bad but modern,liberal,& non-practising is Good? Is that so!
Never forget that the time is approaching fast when the Bhoora-goraas will be snuffed out of their toraa-boraas?There is NO majority silent or otherwise.There is only the vulgar,naked,hooker/pimp kind which is VISIBLE because of its baighairtee--like an Indian movie.
PS:I heard an Osama admirer,US born & bred,perhaps white,english speaking(the real McCoy---with the ``works``)rammed his plane into a building in Florida.Two more crashed same day?
Is this all true?
Are you preventing your( born & bred here) children from exercising their religious followings?Are you exasperated---``oh what is this world coming to``?Do you find all your english-education(Paki-style) going down the drain & are you going cazy?-then RELAX!
This is happening to ALL haramees & those weaned on haraam income of their DADDYS(not abbajaans) in Pakistan(Civil service/army/multi-national RISHVAT KHORES)---that is YOU!And what is happening to you IS happening to others too!
__________________________________________________
Held over by great public demand!--Encore!
Saimashah,tahmad,sigalpha235.
So it really hits where it hurts.Does it?
If you do not see yourself in this mirror,ignore it!
It is meant for those who DO---and they KNOW it.Just enjoy the barbecue.
Muslim countries must be ETHICALLY(sic) cleansed of the kanjars & kanjarees.The idea is to hurt & offend those who ridicule Islam,muslims,& islamic values....you guys are at least neutrals.
But if you guys want to be some do gooders--learn to be equal opportunity offenders.
_________________________________________________
REPRODUCED for the benefit of others---& will be repeated once every so often.
[Some more ``good`` news for those who gloat about their adultery,fornication,drinking,and vicariously enjoy their wives,mothers & daughters` doubling as no-fee hookers & themselves acting as no-load pimps.
``The aroma of kabaab is not afar
Oh where is the sizzle,burn,& char``]
#147 Posted by hamidm on January 6, 2001 9:01:15 pm
prof hobbs
... sorry to butt into your professorial chicanery with sameerjb, but we will not be duped by kaka like :
``Don`t you think it is a tremendous compromise and a realization of fact that adherents of a religion, whose conviction it is that God is omniscient, that is his Law is public, for the public - nevertheless, agree that there are other convictions that must be accommodated in the public sphere? Can we ask any less of those whose conviction is to the secular to demonstrate a similar realization? ``
...... now this is the kind of chicanery that we have come to expect from those who want to impose the tyranny of god on man .......you know what you are asking us to do is not too different from the fascists, nazis and klansmen asking for a fair hearing ....... we are on to you guys and will not be duped ........
... sorry to butt into your professorial chicanery with sameerjb, but we will not be duped by kaka like :
``Don`t you think it is a tremendous compromise and a realization of fact that adherents of a religion, whose conviction it is that God is omniscient, that is his Law is public, for the public - nevertheless, agree that there are other convictions that must be accommodated in the public sphere? Can we ask any less of those whose conviction is to the secular to demonstrate a similar realization? ``
...... now this is the kind of chicanery that we have come to expect from those who want to impose the tyranny of god on man .......you know what you are asking us to do is not too different from the fascists, nazis and klansmen asking for a fair hearing ....... we are on to you guys and will not be duped ........
#146 Posted by scout on January 6, 2001 9:01:15 pm
suxena #145,
why can`t a moderate muslim go to the mosque and not be labeled an `islamist` or a `fanatic?`
millions of Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus go to places of worship every day, peacefully...
why are people like you so uptight about people who might give a damn about religion....as long as they`re not preaching it to you, why are you tying yourself up in knots?
why can`t a moderate muslim go to the mosque and not be labeled an `islamist` or a `fanatic?`
millions of Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus go to places of worship every day, peacefully...
why are people like you so uptight about people who might give a damn about religion....as long as they`re not preaching it to you, why are you tying yourself up in knots?
#145 Posted by hobbyty on January 6, 2001 6:57:01 pm
Sameer
Thanks for the clarifications - had your language been more precise, the need for clarifications would not have arose - but then the piece would have been rational, would not have emotional, evocative punch of bashing ``Islamists.``
``Islamic fundamentalist fanatics usually have much less education in liberal and secular fields, more often exclusively trained at madrassahs, unable to adjust to any society that does not fit their narrowly defined ideology, adamant in literal interpretation of religious literature as opposed to “reflection of a particular time period and culture”.
Sameer would you agree that it would more helpful if we were to seek to assign a label of ``Obscuritanism`` than ``Islamic fundamentalist fanatics`` - Aren`t fanatics, regardless of confession, defined as you have above? - Whereas ``Obscuritanism`` refers to the philosophical underpinning of fanaticism - would you agree? Most definitely agree about interpretation - hope you will read more Soroush, Sadri, Kuhn, Popper, Bell, Bellah and Berger.
``They are misfits in modern dynamic society due to their principles fixated at revelation- based society and culture. The choicest method to achieving their ends is armed struggle –jihad, because it does not require consensus from the enemy in addition to providing a much desired path for death. Funny looking headgear, baggy garments and beards are preferred by this group even in cultures that is not overly bearded.``
You give yourself away with this paragraph - objectivity is not the lack of judgment, rather it is an exploration of the validity of another point of view - judgment can only come after that exploration - otherwise the piece is just propaganda, drivel - won`t you agree?
``The common feature of Islamists is a preference of Islamic over secular, a disagreement with the principle of separation of religion and state and in the case of Pakistan, they believe in the superiority of the hypothesis of Islamic welfare republic over any other theory and fortify their belief as well as public support by taking a free ride on the bandwagon of Two Nation Theory of pre-independence history. Iqbal, Ali Shariati, Jalal Uddin Afghani were Islamists and I believe that Maudoodi and Hasan Al- Banna were also more of Islamists than fundamentalists.``
So ``Islamists`` is a very broad term and you and your editors should have been aware of the mine field you were stepping in - ``The common feature of Islamists is a preference of Islamic over secular, a disagreement with the principle of separation of religion and state and in the case of Pakistan, they believe in the superiority of the hypothesis of Islamic welfare republic over any other theory ... ``
Sameer, cannot a similar statement be made that a common feature of communists, secular humanists, is a preference of communism or secular humanism is a preference of to their particular theory of organization of the state and state hostility to traditional religion? In fact, you have yet again over simplified and have obscured the stake - Islamists, by definition would exhibit the preference of Islam, yet very many recognize that Islam is not the only player on the stage - the stake is the what kind of secular - should it be ``objective``, where in hostility towards traditional religions does not arise or is it to be ``subjective,`` wherein secularism will certainly lead to ``profanation`` and hostility towards a public role for religion? Don`t you think it is a tremendous compromise and a realization of fact that adherents of a religion, whose conviction it is that God is omniscient, that is his Law is public, for the public - nevertheless, agree that there are other convictions that must be accommodated in the public sphere? Can we ask any less of those whose conviction is to the secular to demonstrate a similar realization?
``I totally disagree with hobbyty reference to Sahriati and other Islamist scholars as a rebuttal to me stating that Islamic model adopted ny Taliban lacked intellectual backing. The philosophies of Gramsci, fabian sicialists or Jean Paul Sarte ought not to be used to justify Stalinist Enver Hoxha in Albania or Maoist Pol Pot is Khmer Rouge. Similarly Islamic nutcases should not be defended by the writings of just any Islamists.``
OK - I will not argue this point too strenuously, would like to point out that perhaps if you were more conscious of the imprecision of the language you used, a great many difficulties would have been overcome. And it intellectually dishonest to suggest that I was justifying the Taliban. I was pointing out the weakness of your reasoning and your imprecise use of language.
``The secular and liberal left in Pakistan did not have honest and intellectual leadership. Most of them were hypocrites. The lack of regular elections in Pakistan exacerbated this trend. The second level leadership and supporters were mostly those who wanted to oppose religious right more than anything else. They also included pot-smokers etc. Left in Pakistan has to make the case for secularism against much publicized and popularized TNT – not an easy task. The people who actually helped Pakistan most were bureaucrats of Indian Civil Service of Raj era. They were talented, honest and helped Pakistan survive – much more than religion, TNT, politicians, military or current corrupt and inept bureaucracy.
The absence of checks and balances is hallmark of Islamists as well as fanatics. If proper checks and balances have existed in Pakistan, the Islamists and fanatics would have reduced to more of a nuisance just like communists still win somewhere around 10 percent of popular votes in France, Italy and Spain but have learned to respect checks and balances by enacting laws through democratic process.
I believe that regular elections in Pakistan would help move many of the Islamists away from fanatical fundamentalists. The Islamists would do what Syed Ahmed would like them to do - to win popular support. Above all, good relations with India and allowing native cultures to grow will go a much longer way in this regard.``
Checks and balances - steady on, when have checks and balances ever existed in Pakistan? and a reminder, Islamism in the public sphere has never taken root in Pakistan, Islamists have never ruled/governed in Pakistan (Zia was more interested in perpetuating his rule and simply used Islamism as a political expediency)
The left in Pakistan is irrelevant, not necessarily so the Liberals - but what is Liberalism today? is Locke relevant to Pakistan? I would have thought the Pakistani left would be thoroughly opposed to Locke, afterall, is the amassing of property and contract law priorities for the left? - But back to Liberalism in Pakistan, What is liberalism today, what should it be? Secularism as a public force is nothing new to Pakistanis, it was public religion, a form of societal organization that was new - and it did not produce the kinds of results the Pakistani citizenry favor - no the answer for Liberals in Pakistan has to be more than just creating an awareness of the need for the secular, where is substance of the Liberal, the intellectual foundation - And there is an even greater threat that wild eyed fundos looming: the Islamist who see the secular and a philosophy of education that emphasizes the technical as much as it does the moral, as a necessity in public organization. Wake up call! Don`t complain if you miss the bus! Perhaps this where the Pakistani Liberal will find an intellectual home.
Thanks for the clarifications - had your language been more precise, the need for clarifications would not have arose - but then the piece would have been rational, would not have emotional, evocative punch of bashing ``Islamists.``
``Islamic fundamentalist fanatics usually have much less education in liberal and secular fields, more often exclusively trained at madrassahs, unable to adjust to any society that does not fit their narrowly defined ideology, adamant in literal interpretation of religious literature as opposed to “reflection of a particular time period and culture”.
Sameer would you agree that it would more helpful if we were to seek to assign a label of ``Obscuritanism`` than ``Islamic fundamentalist fanatics`` - Aren`t fanatics, regardless of confession, defined as you have above? - Whereas ``Obscuritanism`` refers to the philosophical underpinning of fanaticism - would you agree? Most definitely agree about interpretation - hope you will read more Soroush, Sadri, Kuhn, Popper, Bell, Bellah and Berger.
``They are misfits in modern dynamic society due to their principles fixated at revelation- based society and culture. The choicest method to achieving their ends is armed struggle –jihad, because it does not require consensus from the enemy in addition to providing a much desired path for death. Funny looking headgear, baggy garments and beards are preferred by this group even in cultures that is not overly bearded.``
You give yourself away with this paragraph - objectivity is not the lack of judgment, rather it is an exploration of the validity of another point of view - judgment can only come after that exploration - otherwise the piece is just propaganda, drivel - won`t you agree?
``The common feature of Islamists is a preference of Islamic over secular, a disagreement with the principle of separation of religion and state and in the case of Pakistan, they believe in the superiority of the hypothesis of Islamic welfare republic over any other theory and fortify their belief as well as public support by taking a free ride on the bandwagon of Two Nation Theory of pre-independence history. Iqbal, Ali Shariati, Jalal Uddin Afghani were Islamists and I believe that Maudoodi and Hasan Al- Banna were also more of Islamists than fundamentalists.``
So ``Islamists`` is a very broad term and you and your editors should have been aware of the mine field you were stepping in - ``The common feature of Islamists is a preference of Islamic over secular, a disagreement with the principle of separation of religion and state and in the case of Pakistan, they believe in the superiority of the hypothesis of Islamic welfare republic over any other theory ... ``
Sameer, cannot a similar statement be made that a common feature of communists, secular humanists, is a preference of communism or secular humanism is a preference of to their particular theory of organization of the state and state hostility to traditional religion? In fact, you have yet again over simplified and have obscured the stake - Islamists, by definition would exhibit the preference of Islam, yet very many recognize that Islam is not the only player on the stage - the stake is the what kind of secular - should it be ``objective``, where in hostility towards traditional religions does not arise or is it to be ``subjective,`` wherein secularism will certainly lead to ``profanation`` and hostility towards a public role for religion? Don`t you think it is a tremendous compromise and a realization of fact that adherents of a religion, whose conviction it is that God is omniscient, that is his Law is public, for the public - nevertheless, agree that there are other convictions that must be accommodated in the public sphere? Can we ask any less of those whose conviction is to the secular to demonstrate a similar realization?
``I totally disagree with hobbyty reference to Sahriati and other Islamist scholars as a rebuttal to me stating that Islamic model adopted ny Taliban lacked intellectual backing. The philosophies of Gramsci, fabian sicialists or Jean Paul Sarte ought not to be used to justify Stalinist Enver Hoxha in Albania or Maoist Pol Pot is Khmer Rouge. Similarly Islamic nutcases should not be defended by the writings of just any Islamists.``
OK - I will not argue this point too strenuously, would like to point out that perhaps if you were more conscious of the imprecision of the language you used, a great many difficulties would have been overcome. And it intellectually dishonest to suggest that I was justifying the Taliban. I was pointing out the weakness of your reasoning and your imprecise use of language.
``The secular and liberal left in Pakistan did not have honest and intellectual leadership. Most of them were hypocrites. The lack of regular elections in Pakistan exacerbated this trend. The second level leadership and supporters were mostly those who wanted to oppose religious right more than anything else. They also included pot-smokers etc. Left in Pakistan has to make the case for secularism against much publicized and popularized TNT – not an easy task. The people who actually helped Pakistan most were bureaucrats of Indian Civil Service of Raj era. They were talented, honest and helped Pakistan survive – much more than religion, TNT, politicians, military or current corrupt and inept bureaucracy.
The absence of checks and balances is hallmark of Islamists as well as fanatics. If proper checks and balances have existed in Pakistan, the Islamists and fanatics would have reduced to more of a nuisance just like communists still win somewhere around 10 percent of popular votes in France, Italy and Spain but have learned to respect checks and balances by enacting laws through democratic process.
I believe that regular elections in Pakistan would help move many of the Islamists away from fanatical fundamentalists. The Islamists would do what Syed Ahmed would like them to do - to win popular support. Above all, good relations with India and allowing native cultures to grow will go a much longer way in this regard.``
Checks and balances - steady on, when have checks and balances ever existed in Pakistan? and a reminder, Islamism in the public sphere has never taken root in Pakistan, Islamists have never ruled/governed in Pakistan (Zia was more interested in perpetuating his rule and simply used Islamism as a political expediency)
The left in Pakistan is irrelevant, not necessarily so the Liberals - but what is Liberalism today? is Locke relevant to Pakistan? I would have thought the Pakistani left would be thoroughly opposed to Locke, afterall, is the amassing of property and contract law priorities for the left? - But back to Liberalism in Pakistan, What is liberalism today, what should it be? Secularism as a public force is nothing new to Pakistanis, it was public religion, a form of societal organization that was new - and it did not produce the kinds of results the Pakistani citizenry favor - no the answer for Liberals in Pakistan has to be more than just creating an awareness of the need for the secular, where is substance of the Liberal, the intellectual foundation - And there is an even greater threat that wild eyed fundos looming: the Islamist who see the secular and a philosophy of education that emphasizes the technical as much as it does the moral, as a necessity in public organization. Wake up call! Don`t complain if you miss the bus! Perhaps this where the Pakistani Liberal will find an intellectual home.
#144 Posted by shammi on January 6, 2001 6:57:01 pm
Re: Sigalph235
``...And the greatest weapon in the human arsenal is the will of free men and women(Ronald Reagan)...``
Sigalph235, I have come to notice how much you love and respect your adopted country, its laws, and its values. What strikes me as even more remarkable is that you do this even though it was your adopted country`s 7th fleet that was almost about to deny its birth. That you have a large heart to forgive, is worthy of emulation by others.
``...And the greatest weapon in the human arsenal is the will of free men and women(Ronald Reagan)...``
Sigalph235, I have come to notice how much you love and respect your adopted country, its laws, and its values. What strikes me as even more remarkable is that you do this even though it was your adopted country`s 7th fleet that was almost about to deny its birth. That you have a large heart to forgive, is worthy of emulation by others.
#143 Posted by nasah on January 6, 2001 3:35:31 pm
Dear Sameer:
Sorry I came a little late to read your erudite analysis on Talibans, Talibansm and its unceremonious demise by daisy cutters..
No doubt Liberal Democracy is an elegant system of governance and should be the ideal for every country to achieve.
However -- it`s very difficult to agree with Huntington`s characterization of Asians or Africans -- unable to learn the ropes of liberal democracy.
He is one of those -- crypto racist Western supremacists -- fellow traveler intellectual -- who thinks that blacks and the Asians are -- genetically handicapped -- in mastering the complexities of Western science ,technology, economics, social and cultural thought processes -- that will lead to the elegantly complex Shangri La of -- liberal democracy.
Yet only half a century ago -- almost half of Europe was utterly unable to learn itself -- to use of that elegant system – it had to FIGHT two WWs -- to find it out.
The experience of West itself in the 20th century indicates that you need a good physical BEATING to open your eyes to the elegance of liberal democracy.
It may not sound very intellectual -- but the truth is that when – countries -- just like people -- get out of control -- and out of line -- then the time for a GOOD THRASHING somehow or other appears out of nowhere -- and after that beating over -- they somehow or other -- find the road to liberal democracy..
Examples are the Europeans -- what they were in the beginning of 20th century -- and how they had to go on a killing spree of each other -- in WW1 and WWII -- and then in cold war years -- amass so much lethal firepower – that could KILL each and every Western and Eastern European, American, Canadian, Russian -- man, woman, and child -- ten times over -- before the Germans, the Italians, the Spaniards -- and lately the Russians -- found the virtues of liberal democracy.
Take the example of our Asian brother -- the Japanese.
Our Japanese brothers of the `30s and the `40s -- were running amuck -- drunk with their Samurai Spirit -- Manchuria, Korea, Formosa -- finally their undoing -- the Pearl Harbor.
The THRASHING that followed -- with a couple of atom bombs -- and fire bombing of Tokyo -- transformed them into lambs of liberal democracy and super marketers of Nikon and Toyotas.
You are right – the same thing happened to the Khmer Rouge -- God bless North Vietnam -- they got rid of that scourge for the poor Cambodians.- -- and can you believe those KRs were “our guys”.
And finally our Talibans -- their undoing was UBL and HIS undoing was his “Pearl Harbor” – the WTC on 9/1.
The hope is that after this THRASHING by -- God bless the GW Junior -- Afghanistan may also learn the tricks of democracy – and perhaps also -- if not making -- at least assembling -- the Toyotas and the Toshiba computers -- in the 21st century.
You`re right -- the lesson for Pakitan is to lock up the likes of Samiul Haq, Qazi Ahmed, Fazloo Mian in a dungeon -- and thow away the keys -- extend a hand of friendship to India -- cut the defense budget -- and plough the savings in science schools -- and fly on the information super highway with the Pakistan flag unfurled -- into the 21st century -- to the ultimate Shangri La of secular liberal democracy -- no big deal.
Happy New Year.
Sorry I came a little late to read your erudite analysis on Talibans, Talibansm and its unceremonious demise by daisy cutters..
No doubt Liberal Democracy is an elegant system of governance and should be the ideal for every country to achieve.
However -- it`s very difficult to agree with Huntington`s characterization of Asians or Africans -- unable to learn the ropes of liberal democracy.
He is one of those -- crypto racist Western supremacists -- fellow traveler intellectual -- who thinks that blacks and the Asians are -- genetically handicapped -- in mastering the complexities of Western science ,technology, economics, social and cultural thought processes -- that will lead to the elegantly complex Shangri La of -- liberal democracy.
Yet only half a century ago -- almost half of Europe was utterly unable to learn itself -- to use of that elegant system – it had to FIGHT two WWs -- to find it out.
The experience of West itself in the 20th century indicates that you need a good physical BEATING to open your eyes to the elegance of liberal democracy.
It may not sound very intellectual -- but the truth is that when – countries -- just like people -- get out of control -- and out of line -- then the time for a GOOD THRASHING somehow or other appears out of nowhere -- and after that beating over -- they somehow or other -- find the road to liberal democracy..
Examples are the Europeans -- what they were in the beginning of 20th century -- and how they had to go on a killing spree of each other -- in WW1 and WWII -- and then in cold war years -- amass so much lethal firepower – that could KILL each and every Western and Eastern European, American, Canadian, Russian -- man, woman, and child -- ten times over -- before the Germans, the Italians, the Spaniards -- and lately the Russians -- found the virtues of liberal democracy.
Take the example of our Asian brother -- the Japanese.
Our Japanese brothers of the `30s and the `40s -- were running amuck -- drunk with their Samurai Spirit -- Manchuria, Korea, Formosa -- finally their undoing -- the Pearl Harbor.
The THRASHING that followed -- with a couple of atom bombs -- and fire bombing of Tokyo -- transformed them into lambs of liberal democracy and super marketers of Nikon and Toyotas.
You are right – the same thing happened to the Khmer Rouge -- God bless North Vietnam -- they got rid of that scourge for the poor Cambodians.- -- and can you believe those KRs were “our guys”.
And finally our Talibans -- their undoing was UBL and HIS undoing was his “Pearl Harbor” – the WTC on 9/1.
The hope is that after this THRASHING by -- God bless the GW Junior -- Afghanistan may also learn the tricks of democracy – and perhaps also -- if not making -- at least assembling -- the Toyotas and the Toshiba computers -- in the 21st century.
You`re right -- the lesson for Pakitan is to lock up the likes of Samiul Haq, Qazi Ahmed, Fazloo Mian in a dungeon -- and thow away the keys -- extend a hand of friendship to India -- cut the defense budget -- and plough the savings in science schools -- and fly on the information super highway with the Pakistan flag unfurled -- into the 21st century -- to the ultimate Shangri La of secular liberal democracy -- no big deal.
Happy New Year.
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