Taliban : An Analysis

Bijli # 168

``Afaqui Saheb

Plz Continue ,i think your post whether extempore or reproduced are very rational than75% of worthless verbal diarhoea & intellectual constipation that i have to endure .``

hamzad afaqui,

Meer Taqi Meer,Meer Anees and Faiz Ahmed Faiz must

be turning in their graves at your mehboob-e-nazar.BTW here is a new angle on the same verse.

arz kiya hai:

voh tau voh hai,tumhe ho jaigi nafrat mujh se

tum aik nazar mera mehboob-e-nazar tau dekho

Regards.

An interesting piece for those who try hard to know the truth -

http://www.dailynewslosangeles.com/socal/terrorist/0102/04/terror12.asp#

Friday, January 4, 2002

US government takes liberties with facts

By David Pace

Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - The government is taking liberties with the facts in two high profile documents appealing for help in locating terrorists.

A State Department ad offering millions in rewards contains inaccurate information about hijacking ringleader Mohammed Atta, while a Pentagon leaflet dropped in Afghanistan includes a photo purporting to be Osama bin Laden in Western clothing without a beard.

State Department officials acknowledged the reward money ad running across the United States gives apparent details about Atta that actually were borrowed from other terrorism suspects, or were inaccurate.

The ad`s creators ``took some liberties with some of the content,`` said a State Department official, who asked not to be identified.

Separately, the Pentagon released copies of the leaflets but could not immediately say who was in the picture, whether it was bin Laden or whether it was intended to deceive people into thinking bin Laden had abandoned his religious beliefs and had shaved his beard. The government acknowledged the leaflets are being dropped by U.S. planes.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said he wasn`t aware of the leaflet with the questionable photo. But he said, ``The whole premise of bin Laden`s activities in the world are premised on lies.``

Muslim Americans said playing loose with the facts hurts the government`s already damaged image in the Muslim world.

``All of this hide-and-seek attitude really cuts into the credibility of our story, which is the strongest story,`` said Shaker Elsayed, secretary general of the Muslim American Society. ``We have a great case to make. We are hurt by not speaking straightforward.``

The State Department ad, part of the ``Rewards for Justice`` program, is being run in newspapers across the country. The text surrounding Atta`s picture says he ``wanted to learn to fly but didn`t need to take off and land.`` That statement has never been attributed to Atta.

It was widely attributed to Zacarias Moussaoui, the only person charged in connection with the attacks, in the weeks after Sept. 11. But FBI Director Robert Mueller told federal prosecutors in November that Moussaoui had aroused suspicions by saying just the opposite, that he only wanted to learn to take off and land.

The ad also suggests that Atta ``was interested in crop dusting an obviously risky behavior when he couldn`t even get a plane off the ground.`` Atta did make inquiries about crop dusting in Florida, but he had a commercial pilot`s license and rented and flew small planes several times in Florida and Georgia.

Charlotte Beers, undersecretary of state for public diplomacy, said when the ad campaign was unveiled last month that ``we`re talking about clues that might have led you to spot someone like Mohammed Atta.``

The State Department official who commented Thursday said Atta`s picture was used because he was the most well known of the hijackers, but the ad`s text included a composite of activities from several hijackers and Moussaoui.

Stephen Hess, an analyst with the Brookings Institution, called the ad a mistake and said it could hurt U.S. credibility in the Muslim world.

``There`s no mystery that we are held suspect in large parts of the world,`` he said. ``For just that reason, the U.S. government must be sure that everything it does can bear scrutiny. Frankly, this is sloppy.``

One leaflet being dropped by U.S. planes shows bin Laden with turban and beard and says he ``laughs at you because you don`t know he has sent you to your death.``

The other shows what appears to be a clean-shaven bin Laden, wearing short hair and a Western suit and tie an image that might offend followers of his and the Taliban` strict version of Islam. There have been rumors among Afghans that bin Laden has shaved or used a disguise to slip out of the country.

``Osama bin Laden the murderer and coward has abandoned you,`` the leaflet says.

There have been accusations that the U.S. altered the videotape it released last month in which bin Laden was talking about planning the Sept. 11 attacks.

Rumsfeld was asked at Thursday`s press briefing if people might see the leaflet photo as proof that America doctors or fabricates things.

``That is a possibility that people will say something that`s not true,`` Rumsfeld replied. ``There`s nothing much we can do about it. We live in the world, we get up in the morning, we go about and do our business as best we can.``

Hobbyty,

I find that it is helpful to focus on specific aspects and interpretations of theories in order to map out their various meanings and subtleties before bringing in the larger themes. It is also apparent that your reading and understandings of these interpretations are in service to an agenda that I do not agree with. Therefore, I think it would be beneficial to try to stop convincing each other of our respective positions.

In terms of Foucault, I am fascinated by his work on the state imposition of controlling systems of order particularly in institutions like hospitals, prisons, heterosexual definitions of sexuality. (I am thinking of his essay ``Discipline and Punish``. And yes, the result is an inherent tension that results in this collision of singular, homogenizing, impositions and the disruptive, plural of many different realities and experiences. In my opinion, this condition is not limited to the ``modern`` world.

``...the body is directly involved in a political field; power relations have an immediate hold on it; they invest it, mark it, train it, torture it, force it to carry out tasks, to perform ceremonies, to emit signs. The political investment of the body is bound up, in accordance with complex reciprocal relations, with its economic use; it is largely as a force of production that the body is invested with the relations of power and domination; but, on the other hand, its constitution labor power is possible only if it is caught up in a system of subjection....``

regards

semi:

``..good lord, what is this damn obsession about my age?....i`ve never mentioned it before but just to set your `mind` to rest, i`m 21....there...satisfed?....``

nahin nahin pls nahin. :(

Hobbyty, you are all over the map except tackling the core issues raised in the article - less likelihood of chowkwallas yawning than the Pandora box you have opened with stampeding through largely academic and unintelligible technique of going in circles. Reading through your posts, not just defending cognitive, aesthetic and abstract but actually making the case of their superiority over all other modes of acquiring knowledge, enlightening oneself, thinking and acting rationally and plain old common sense, which resulted through evolution of society in-line with survival instincts of humans. The only thing I envy after going through your posts is the time you have to think and respond in great details.

I wish I could respond to in detail to match yours so that all chowkwallas begin to yawn once again and hitting the scroll bar. Unfortunately, I can not afford any more time today than responding to your comments about derogation of cognitive and missing or ignoring the comparison of religions portion from your responses about the importance of religions.

You asked me if I have read Bellah, Berger,…….. I did not but I can also give you even more impressive list and ask the same question. Have you read Graham, Wells, Dawkins, Huxley, Wilson, Sagan, Campbell, Hamidm,…….? Similarly in addition to Dostoyevesky, Neitzche,………and making a case of differentiating between nature and good, have you read a large number of Chinese, Japanese and Indian philosophers making a case for living and respecting at peace and by nature ? – An extension of Taoism.

When a person climbs up Mount sinai, sits there for 40 days and bring back common sense like “you should love your neighbor”, the question comes to mind is: Why did he goes into seclusion? Wasn’t loving neighbor exhibited in private, public and even among neighboring states existed? It did. It is because he wanted his stamp on morals through an imaginary higher power. It is damn smart strategy to share the credit with the help of higher power, if things go well from there on. If they don’t, you stand exonerated because they are higher power’s commands and you claim to be just a messenger. He made his common sense, though same as others, superior to others by associating it with god.

Religions are like a string of beads with beads representing god, moral codes, ethics, history, myths, rationality, irrationality, reflection of the said period in terms of history and culture, inspiration, immortality, common sense and so on. Some of them are strong steel beads evolved and fortified through evolution of social behavior and others are fragile like soda glass. The problem is that if just one bead falls, whole string falls to the ground, smashing all the fragile ones, leaving with common sense only. The Judaic, Christian and Islamic scriptures is that many portions are just too mythical, magical (miracles) and contradict the history known from other sources. What will be left of these religions if the word Jew is never found in the heap of now decoded Egyptian hieroglyphics? The very doubtful existence of the major figures, the unbelievable myths, not to mention the concept of god make a very strong case against literally believing the scriptures. Why should all this be considered superior and overwriting to all other forms of knowledge and common sense? Religions should have been more like Al-Qaida network; different independent cells where fall of one concept does not kill the whole body. An individual could have been then selective in pick and choose sense. Eastern religions are like that. They are open-ended and most people accept it partially, of their liking. It makes them superior to all eggs in one basket or a string of tightly netted beads where one has to accept all of it - to be perfect in religious sense.

The derogation of cognitive is the direct result of arrogance of the cognitive. It is simply a third law of Physics. The abstract, aesthetic or cognitive can be beautiful as well as ugly. They may be good or bad. It all depends upon induction. An irrational induction would lead to irrational cognition and a rational induction to rational cognition. The induced cognition resulting from a feed process described very nicely by Hamidm in one of his post (how indoctrination from early on in Muslims families in USA is leading to kids ending up as Kamran Bhai and Imran Bhai of Muslim Student Associations – becoming isolationists, angry, retards, introverts, zealots etc.

Organized religions have no part to play in individual and personal cognition. When shia and sunnis kill each other or Christians and Muslims at each other’s throat, it is each others’ irrational cognition which are irreconcilable because they have been resulted due to irrational induction. Religion based deeper convictions ought to remain private. For example arrogant conviction of Islam being the best religion and has a role in public largely Islamic states will be met with arrogance or derogation by those who disagree with it, resulting in highly polarized charged atmosphere. A pebble is looked upon differently by different people. It might be a source of focus by a Buddhist, an example of natural beauty by Taoist, a creation by god by a Muslims, a mixture of mostly silicon and Aluminium compounds by a Chemist, a source of algae and moulds underneath this pebble by a Biologist and laws of erosion by a Geologist. There is no conciliance of all disciplines of knowledge. What you seem to be suggesting is that religious cognition is a wisdom that is the superior and source of all disciplines of knowledge and hence a consiliance of all forms of knowledge. Not just nations and society but each individual is breathing and living pebble. There are various aspects, avenues and modes of knowledge. The cognitive is neither superior nor panacea. It is a source of identification with self, or society for some and snake oil for others.

Yawn, yawn, yawn…………..the derogation of induced and arrogant cognitive must continue. The process of reducing the perfectly normal human beings to a flock of lambs through induction of the reflections of another time, another place as the only mode of thinking and acting must be challenged. Secular Humanism is one such challenge. It is open ended/ dynamic and based on natural selection through evolution of society. Most of all, it is not gender-specific.

When a nation’s preoccupation is reduced to Hudood Ordinance, Blasphemy law, murtids, munafiqs, non-Muslims and kafirs, the walls around jealously protected narrow literal interpretations and fat body of rituals thickens; the cognition is limited to the level of frog in the well.

Afaqui Sahib/12 head,

I see you are slinking away from the challenge....again, both of you spew the virtues of the Muslim Woman in hijab or burqa, so why not experience life as a Muslim Woman in burqa or hijab for two weeks? Why mouth off when you don`t have the courage to live by your convictions?

Banjaara sahib----179.

(ghalibun aap tariq ali kay board sey yahaan uchak aayay)

Bhaee yunh bujhharatain naa bujhhvayiyay.Kuchh to utaa putaa bataayiyay.Vallah hamaaree samajh mein to kuchh bhee naheen aa rahaaa.

Kis kaafir mehboob e nazar kaa zikr ho rahaa hai yahaan?kis kumbukht ko mehboob e nazar mil gayaa?kyoon voh hazraat qabron mein baychainee sey krvatainn lay rahai hongay?

Bhaee zaraa to khul key likhaa karain....chowk key mohtsib ko jul dainay kay kaee tareequay hain.

tavajoh dain.

Harpreet #178 Agreed it is a waste of time to read, and even more so to respond to, some posters on chowk. I shall try not to waste too much time on these. Life`s too short.

Sadna,

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I also thought that some of the ideas that Mezlekia brought up were a bit idealistic; probably a reflection of the desperation that moderate Ethiopians feel. A couple of other thoughts; he grew up in a household that encompassed a young Muslim woman and a Christian woman. He states that there are many Muslims who encorporate indigenous cultural practices in their Islam, such as animism.

On a different note: Are you familliar with an organization called Sarc? Heard on a news report that the smaller South Asian countries of Bhutan, Nepal, Bangladesh are getting quite fed up with the ongoing Indo-Pak drama and that it is preventing the Subcontinent from getting on with addressing more relevant issues such as poverty and disarmament.

Semiprecious

Glad to hear that your getting some rest and relaxation. What are you majoring in, if you don`t mind my asking?

regards

Saminashah

``I think it would be beneficial to try to stop convincing each other of our respective positions.``

Is everybody on Chowk irregular? where did this come from? We forward our positions so as to be understood - you don`t have agree to anything I say, it would help if you understood it. Why get defensive? there is nothing wrong about disagreeing, if we can reason our postions - and we are civil when disagreeing - please feel entirely free to disagree and to convince me of your position - I refuse to walk on eggshells and affirm my right to be wrong. Actually I rather enjoy interacting with and did not realize you objected to being disagreed with.

Samina neither mine or your or anybody else`s understanding is made of stone - our understanding and opinions will keep on changing - mine certainly will - I make no claim of being uneducable, shrill, maybe.

``In terms of Foucault, I am fascinated by his work on the state imposition of controlling systems of order particularly in institutions like hospitals, prisons, heterosexual definitions of sexuality. (I am thinking of his essay ``Discipline and Punish``. And yes, the result is an inherent tension that results in this collision of singular, homogenizing, impositions and the disruptive, plural of many different realities and experiences. In my opinion, this condition is not limited to the ``modern`` world.

Well, a grudging yes of course - if a minority view, such as homosexuality, would feel itself constrained by the domination of a majority outlook - regardless of the ``modern`` - really it`s a question of moral temper - or do you not agree? why morality? whose morality? public morality? or is it legitimate of multiplicities of morality in the public? and it`s implication for law? for order? - maybe we can do with less order - no! society means order, laws, conventions, homogeneity - laws are meant to apply to all, aren`t they? Ought we live and organize ourselves by reason or instinct? by the pleasure principle or by the reality principle?

A generally similar, though less sexual in it`s emphasis, line of reasoning is offered by the theoretical physicist, Julian Barbour ``The End of Time`` - argues that time is an illusion, does not exist, that Einstein had it wrong (but not completely) - that what we experience as time, is delayed comprehension - that all realities, experiences, possibilities, probablilities exist simultaneously, that we actually live in eternity

I must admit that I know little of this work and am trying to learn more - hoping to obtain Sameer`s assitance

``...the body is directly involved in a political field; power relations have an immediate hold on it; they invest it, mark it, train it, torture it, force it to carry out tasks, to perform ceremonies, to emit signs.``

Yes but not exclusively, by imposition - not all labor is by imposition, not all the hardship the body endures is by imposition (unless hunger and obligations are impositions - but then they are, aren`t they?)

Are you familiar with the ``polymorph perverse`` of Norman O. Brown ``Life Against Death``, ``Love`s Body``, ``Apocalypse`` - not trying to convince you of anything - just suggesting that you may find it of interest:

``All psychic forces are significant only through their aptitude to arouse emotions.`` ``All freud`s work demonstrates that the allegiance of the human psyche to the pleasure principle is indestructible and that path of instinctual renunciation is the path of sickness and self-destruction``

Instinct, especially sexual instinct has been shaped by the ordering pressures of civilization. proceeding from an early undifferentiated stage, sexual instincts becomes organized orally, moves to an anal stage, whicjh is basic bodily repression and fianlly becomes focused in the genitals. in the values of civilization, the genital is the highest orgiastic form of pleasure. Isn`t the genital a specialized form of the division of labor itself, concentrating all pleasure in a single organ of the human body, rather than in the body itself? ``It is part of tyranny of genital organization``.

If the eroticism of the body what man must admit, then pleasure must be suffused through out. genital man is to become polymorph perverse, able to experience the world in all senses and through all orifices, to recover, in effect, in unlimited subcoital intimacy, the pleasure of childhood``

``The political investment of the body is bound up, in accordance with complex reciprocal relations, with its economic use; it is largely as a force of production that the body is invested with the relations of power and domination; but, on the other hand, its constitution labor power is possible only if it is caught up in a system of subjection....``

Rebellion in every word, the imagery of enslavement in every sentence - like the shadows in the cave, such are illusions of freedom.

Alas, Such is the nature of responsibility - toil till sundowm, gentle beast - for at the receding of the last rays of light, in the dark, you may rise again to reveal and reclaim your true nature, your agony wil soon end.

Freedom from order, rage Dionysiusm, rage. what use have you of culture, rage and be united with the primal instinct, imagine no boundaries, no morality, only the instict you have been denied - rebel! echoes of the end of an epoch - Neitzche, one hears here, even as his rage drowns in the early hours, signalling the dawning of a new epoch of reason, morality, responsibility and order.

re: SameerJB # 183

It is not often that one reads a post of such clarity, deapth, and power...

Thank you, sameer.

Sameer

``Hobbyty, you are all over the map except tackling the core issues raised in the article - less likelihood of chowkwallas yawning than the Pandora box you have opened with stampeding through largely academic and unintelligible technique of going in circles. Reading through your posts, not just defending cognitive, aesthetic and abstract but actually making the case of their superiority over all other modes of acquiring knowledge, enlightening oneself, thinking and acting rationally and plain old common sense, which resulted through evolution of society in-line with survival instincts of humans. The only thing I envy after going through your posts is the time you have to think and respond in great details``

What the heck are you talking about? to specifically what , are you referring to - you sound angry and incoherent.

I wish I could respond to in detail to match yours so that all chowkwallas begin to yawn once again and hitting the scroll bar. Unfortunately, I can not afford any more time today than responding to your comments about derogation of cognitive and missing or ignoring the comparison of religions portion from your responses about the importance of religions.

What derogation of the cognative? were you chewing peyote when you wrote this? what the heck are you talking about?

You asked me if I have read Bellah, Berger,…….. I did not but I can also give you even more impressive list and ask the same question. Have you read Graham, Wells, Dawkins, Huxley, Wilson, Sagan, Campbell, Hamidm,…….? Similarly in addition to Dostoyevesky, Neitzche,………and making a case of differentiating between nature and good, have you read a large number of Chinese, Japanese and Indian philosophers making a case for living and respecting at peace and by nature ? – An extension of Taoism.

No, I have not read Graham, Wells, Dawkins, Huxley, Wilson or Sagan - The point was not to form a ``impressive`` (to whom?) list, but to ask if you were refering to those works as well - as I was - I`m rather confused by this response - it`s angry and not coherent - but what the heck are you angry about?

When a person climbs up Mount sinai, sits there for 40 days and bring back common sense like “you should love your neighbor”, the question comes to mind is: Why did he goes into seclusion? Wasn’t loving neighbor exhibited in private, public and even among neighboring states existed? It did. It is because he wanted his stamp on morals through an imaginary higher power. It is damn smart strategy to share the credit with the help of higher power, if things go well from there on. If they don’t, you stand exonerated because they are higher power’s commands and you claim to be just a messenger. He made his common sense, though same as others, superior to others by associating it with god.

Anti God? is that reasonable position - what century are you in? You say you are a scientist, how did you get to be one, you trained, someone trained you - or did you just absorb it from the neighbor? - you have not thought through this response - this is an angry rant and not a thought out response.

Religions are like a string of beads with beads representing god, moral codes, ethics, history, myths, rationality, irrationality, reflection of the said period in terms of history and culture, inspiration, immortality, common sense and so on. Some of them are strong steel beads evolved and fortified through evolution of social behavior and others are fragile like soda glass. The problem is that if just one bead falls, whole string falls to the ground, smashing all the fragile ones, leaving with common sense only. The Judaic, Christian and Islamic scriptures is that many portions are just too mythical, magical (miracles) and contradict the history known from other sources. What will be left of these religions if the word Jew is never found in the heap of now decoded Egyptian hieroglyphics? The very doubtful existence of the major figures, the unbelievable myths, not to mention the concept of god make a very strong case against literally believing the scriptures. Why should all this be considered superior and overwriting to all other forms of knowledge and common sense? Religions should have been more like Al-Qaida network; different independent cells where fall of one concept does not kill the whole body. An individual could have been then selective in pick and choose sense. Eastern religions are like that. They are open-ended and most people accept it partially, of their liking. It makes them superior to all eggs in one basket or a string of tightly netted beads where one has to accept all of it - to be perfect in religious sense.

I see, western religions are bad, because they value discipline, becaue you are not an adherent - not a pick and choose buffet? You sure you are talking about religion - I can`t believe the kind of religious bigotry you exhibit here - I am convicnced you have not thought this through. What do you mean religions shud be like - who died and left you god, Mr. more righteous, more holy than me?

The derogation of cognitive is the direct result of arrogance of the cognitive. It is simply a third law of Physics. The abstract, aesthetic or cognitive can be beautiful as well as ugly. They may be good or bad. It all depends upon induction. An irrational induction would lead to irrational cognition and a rational induction to rational cognition. The induced cognition resulting from a feed process described very nicely by Hamidm in one of his post (how indoctrination from early on in Muslims families in USA is leading to kids ending up as Kamran Bhai and Imran Bhai of Muslim Student Associations – becoming isolationists, angry, retards, introverts, zealots etc.

What derogation of the cognative are you talking about? I`m tempted - who the -kamran - have you been hallucinating - what the heck is this you are writng? irrational cognition? the aeathetic not based on values but on method??

Organized religions have no part to play in individual and personal cognition.

That came from Sinai? For you they may not, who are you to decide if they may or may not for others? been drinking? Wild Irish Rose?

When shia and sunnis kill each other or Christians and Muslims at each other’s

throat, it is each others’ irrational cognition which are irreconcilable because they have been resulted due to irrational induction.

Emotion has no role to play? method? You, Mr. scientist, won`t refer to Popper and instead dump method on me? Wouldn`t kuhn me more relevant? why did you decide to write when you can`t straight?

Religion based deeper convictions ought to remain private.

I see, there are religions based on shallow convictions? Just who died and left you to decide this? are you going to decide for me? others? - if your answer is yes, do you think you will ever have such an opportunity?

For example arrogant conviction of Islam being the best religion and has a role in

public largely Islamic states will be met with arrogance or derogation by those who disagree with it, resulting in highly polarized charged atmosphere. A pebble is looked upon differently by different people.

read my post over again - this time, sober



It might be a source of focus by a Buddhist, an example of natural beauty by Taoist,

a creation by god by a Muslims, a mixture of mostly silicon and Aluminium compounds by a Chemist, a source of algae and moulds underneath this pebble by a Biologist and laws of erosion by a Geologist. There is no conciliance of all disciplines of knowledge. What you seem to be suggesting is that religious cognition is a wisdom that is the superior and source of all disciplines of knowledge and hence a consiliance of all forms of knowledge.

And based on exactly what portiuon of my writing did you come to that conclusion -

Not just nations and society but each individual is breathing and living pebble. There

are various aspects, avenues and modes of knowledge. The cognitive is neither superior nor panacea. It is a source of identification with self, or society for some and snake oil for others.

Yawn, yawn, yawn…………..the derogation of induced and arrogant cognitive must continue. The process of reducing the perfectly normal human beings to a flock of lambs through induction of the reflections of another time, another place as the only mode of thinking and acting must be challenged. Secular Humanism is one such challenge. It is open ended/ dynamic and based on natural selection through evolution of society. Most of all, it is not gender-specific.

Social Darwinism as an Ought? Idiot - sober up! Most of all, it`s not gender specific, that the criteria for social organization - do gender specific criteria not occur in your everyday experience?

When a nation’s preoccupation is reduced to Hudood Ordinance, Blasphemy law, murtids, munafiqs, non-Muslims and kafirs, the walls around jealously protected narrow literal interpretations and fat body of rituals thickens; the cognition is limited to the level of frog in the well.

Where in any of my posts do I concern myself with Hudood or any of the rubbish you list -

Anways when you sober up, I want you to do me a favor: check out the following website: www.platonia.com - it`s Dr. Julian Barbour`s website ``The End of Time`` There is stuff there about quantum mechanics and how ther is no such thing as time, and all that er percieve as time is the present- I don`t understand this - look into it and explain to me in layman terms.

re: scout

{{why can`t a moderate muslim go to the mosque and not be labeled an `islamist` or a `fanatic?`

millions of Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus go to places of worship every day, peacefully...}}

scout aunty, you are getting overly worked up about nothing...i never equated going to a place of religious worship to being a fanatic...i just cited an example of a couple of people in my life...it was a pretty specific comment...

{why are people like you so uptight about people who might give a damn about religion....as long as they`re not preaching it to you, why are you tying yourself up in knots?}

again, you are making a haathi out of an ant...i`m not tying myself up in knots...i just choose to associate with people with whom i share a certain lifestyle and set of beliefs...i don`t care to deal with people who won`t eat in a restaurant b.c. the place isn`t halal or b.c. the place serves beef...i.e. nuts like hamzad afaqui and those mormons...etc. etc. etc...

saminashah #187
``probably a reflection of the desperation that moderate Ethiopians feel. ``

I can understand. Combining a sense of historic continuity and progression with feeling of being a nation(a very respected chowk poster Bilal Ahmad used to say nations are imagined communities) is the toughest part of becoming a viable nation/state. Most often those with the vision donot have the power and those with the power donot have the vision resulting in disasters :(. This seems to be a feature of most of the Third world countries, except a lucky few. Nelson Mandela ought to use his retirement better..

``A couple of other thoughts; he grew up in a household that encompassed a young Muslim woman and a Christian woman. He states that there are many Muslims who encorporate indigenous cultural practices in their Islam, such as animism.``

Perhaps groups of Muslims in many parts of the world do incorporate indigenous cultural practices ? Iranians celebrate the festival of Nau Roz if I am right(as do some Afghans)?

``Are you familliar with an organization called Sarc? Heard on a news report that the smaller South Asian countries of Bhutan, Nepal, Bangladesh are getting quite fed up with the ongoing Indo-Pak drama and that it is preventing the Subcontinent from getting on with addressing more relevant issues such as poverty and disarmament.``

Yes, and I think Indians are too. Vajpayee is now a veteran of Indo-Pak summits. Economic growth, telecom deregulation?, the overloaded justice system, police reforms, performance of local government, education policy, investment incentives, attending to shortfalls in road and power infrastructure, water management, disinvestment in public sector, fighting communalization, WTO tussles, policy decisions on how many things are now held up because the government is busy somewhere else..?

Us-paar they can do all this, balance their budget and fight a war too it seems, looking at their priorities. Saudi/Arab money is a convenient thing to have, I guess, Indians have to work at and for everything( which is a good thing actually)

PS:
[Us-paar they can do all this, balance their budget and fight a war too it seems, looking at their priorities )]

Additionally us-paar they donot have to worry about getting booted out in the elections by disgruntled housewives unable to afford commodities or young people unable to find jobs or farmers who couldnot got get good prices for their harvests, because the government didnot attend to the real business of the state.. Some people like Musharraf REALLY have it good..

hamzad afaqui # 185

``Banjaara sahib----179

(ghalibun aap tariq ali kay board sey yahaan uchak aayay)

Bhaee yunh bujhharatain naa bujhhvayiyay.Kuchh to utaa putaa bataayiyay.Vallah hamaaree samajh mein to kuchh bhee naheen aa rahaaa.

Kis kaafir mehboob e nazar kaa zikr ho rahaa hai yahaan?kis kumbukht ko mehboob e nazar mil gayaa?kyoon voh hazraat qabron mein baychainee sey krvatainn lay rahai hongay?

Bhaee zaraa to khul key likhaa karain....chowk key mohtsib ko jul dainay kay kaee tareequay hain.

tavajoh dain.``

Huzoor!

Banjaara aur sahib?Hum aapko ahle zabaan samjhay

thay,ghalti hui.Hum aapko aqalmand bhi samjhay

thay,mazeed ghalti hui.

Jab Hamzad ke maddah kamzaat (168) hoN tau lazimun

Meer,Anees aur Faiz apni apni qabroN maiN be-chain

ho rahe hoNge.

Navazish.