Taliban : An Analysis

Re: Hamidm writes….

..... even a sprinkle of islam (the political kind) is a receipe for disaster ... can you imagine having a ``little`` bit of communism or fascism or plain and simple madness as part of a political system .... to justice.


I expected better from you… several public policies in the US are and Western Europe are in response to Communism…. The rigt to Unionize, Social Security. Unemployment Insurance and heavy government involvement in the market place……Actually the Western European economies are even more socialized …..so there is a substantial bit of “Communism” in the US domestic policy….

Even if you remove Islam from Pakistan – do you really believe Presto you have an enlightened society … Pakistan would be more like Mexico – which is a secular country yet not effective progress….

And the “liberal” recipe for Islamic removal is much like the jehadi recipe for Islamic implementation….. FORCE, TORTURE and REPRESSION The problem for Pakistan is that we are a nation of 150 Million PAINDOO’s with a regressive thought process. Even after residing in the West decades --- our most effective : Solution” to bring about change is through a centralized Machiavellian authority… What Pakistan ails from is PAINDOOISM … and the PAINDOO is not the poor villager … but the Islamic and Liberal leadership who are more interested in preserving their own vested agendas….

Rather than being stuck in a ideological quagmire of means – why does the liberal gentry concentrate on the ends….. why not build schools, hospitals and power plants …based on secular NGO’s and trusts .and show the strength of your ideology by benefiting the people of Pakistan…- And the same goes for the Islamists … rather they developing a massada complex with hate filled “anti-Hindu” or anti-Jewish” rhetoric the Islamic parties should be building schools, …. Hospitals etc etc…… And let the people( who are hopefully more enlightened) decide what t hey want through the ballot box….

This way the right wing and the left wing idealogues can argue ad nauseam whilst the rest of the population moves ahead constructively and sees some tangible benfits of this rivalry…

Or is it as I suspect that the left wing is no different from the right wing – they are both purveyors of the status quo and at best ideological demagogues .- as a result the people have seen no tangible benefits in their life….

..

Great quote from K.K. Aziz`s book -

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/book1.htm

``The choice is between a counterfeit culture in which irrational tenets dominate over a few observable traditions and a genuine and pure culture in which reason and inheritance balance each other, liberal ideas jostle with traditional values, enlightenment goes hand in hand with the legacy of good manners and human sympathy, the best of our patrimony is conserved and wedded with the finest gifts of the new world.``

Will we listen?

Ref ProphetMuhammad #: 68

[Hydraheaded Monster imposing as MAJinnah... if you dont want me using this nick stop using that...]

Is thay you, ylh? I publicly asked for the nick ProphetMuhammad but didn`t get around to registering it with Chowk. So this is NOT me.

ProphetMuhammad:

Finally you have arrived. Please show us the way.

Thanks.

fatimah # 59

In response to your question who is asking for help ? Just about every country in Asia/Africa/Latin America which does not have oil ? Some ask for money. Some ask for trading priveleges. Some want access to advanced technology and weapons. Some want right to immigrate to USA.

I never said that everyone asks for help from America. Even those who do sell themselves have their own agenda. Pakistan is a good example. It pursued its own agenda on nukes, China and Afghanistan.

If China had pulled out the WTC bombing, the consequences would be extremely severe. I don`t think US would have attacked China. At least not as quickly as Afghanistan.

USA apologized for shooting of Iranian Airbus in the Persian Gulf. It was a war zone with skirmishes between US and Iranian navies. USA did a mistake.

I don`t know where you get the 25000 Afghan dead. The dead include Taleban soldiers, Pakistani/Arab mercernaries, Northern Alliance troops in addition to civillians. If USA provides Karzai with the help to rebuild Afghanistan it is worth the effort. If you don`t like the US effort, what do you suggest as an alternative ?

If that attack had been in Delhi instead of New York, Islamabad would be a rubble of concrete.

Urstruly,

You misunderstood my argument. In an Islamic state which has gone through the process of Ijtehad and Ijmah, and other rigors of Islamic jurisprudence, I concede that all of the 5 points that I have presented will be accepted principles of the state. My conception of a true Islamic state arises from Iqbal`s `reconstruction of religious thought in Islam`.

However, that has not been the experience. In Pakistan crimes against humanity have been perpetrated in the name of Islam. In Afghanistan Islam has come to symbolize oppression, backwardness and everything that is wrong.

True Islam in my opinion, and this is my opinion and unfortunately not the opinion of billions of Muslims world widE, stands for a Liberal Democratic Modernist state wherein all people will be given equal rights and in which no one will be forced to hide their faith or denomination. But my Islam it seems died with Syed Ahmed Khan, Gokalp, Iqbal, Ameer Ali and Jinnah.

I am talking about the abuse of Quran that takes place in our societies for selfish and petty reasons.

Sincerely

YLH

PS: I know you and I dont agree on many things but you should have more faith in me than to compare me with self righteous twits from across the border.

Sameer, please do not tarnish the name of our ancestors living around 1995 by saying ``For the Taliban, time stopped some time during the seventh century and restarted during 1995``. Even people living at that time or hence in Afghansitan were much more progressive then Taliban. Tagore had written such a poignant story ``Kabuliwala`` about an Afghan, in this century, and the hero of this stroy cannot be imagined in anyway to have supported acts like those of the Taliban.

Romair #3: Like my all other articles and many postings at chowk, this piece also is partly objective and partly subjective. I have always felt to exchange information in a dispassionate manner whereas subjective part could not possibly be dispassionate. The summary of futuristic hypotheses of geo-political scenarios in the beginning is available form a number of articles, books or websites. I made sure not to present Samuel Huntington as West’s Imam Ghazali as many Islamists use him as target in their discussion. It is summation of constantly evolving thought process that is hard for fixated minds to fathom.

Next section is also objective with information about Khmer Rouge. Unlike Jewish holocaust, Kampuchean holocaust is less memorialized, just as the partition bloodbath leading to ethnic cleansing and human cost associated with Bangladesh independence. This is in sharp contrast to Kashmiris tragedies that are much popularized among Pakistanis. None of them is myth and reality of them demand right information and then popularizing in such a way to avoid such happening in the future. Any discussion about Khmer Rouge or Taliban limited to their ideologies and downfall only does not provide wholesome analysis. It must include the conditions, players involved, societal weaknesses and possibly economic conditions that allowed the Taliban or Khmer Rouge experiments to take place on the first place.

If I had to stop at brief comparison of Taliban and Khmer Rouge, it would have been more of a compilation and collation of available material and not an article. This is where subjective part enters the article. Usually I think about the topic to write for several days while adding information in my mind about it but actual writing is always in one sitting over the weekend. I should be more careful about grammar, word economy and style but I do not go over my non-scientific writings carefully, sentence by sentence and editing.

The subjective part dealing with Islam and Pakistan is not expected not to raise any eyebrows. The opinionated part of thinking, though logical, is different than mathematical or scientific logic. That is why, two different individuals can arrive at two different conclusions in their own logic. Your disappointment, disagreement and disapproval is just fine with me because our minds are not clones of each other. And Pakistanis should not think themselves as clones while others look at us as brainwashed.

You and I differ on fundamentals behind Islam or any other religion. What is Islam to me if I do not believe or have serious doubts about the existence of God? I do not need to bring in any quotes from holy books or history to disagree with a believer. I have problem with the justification of revelation over reason and we have people here even at chowk who justify common sense humanity through quotes from religious literature. A case in point is respect for mother or sister. Do I need to rush to Barnes and Noble to get an English translation of Quran, a copy of interpretation by some Ghazali wazali and Fatimah Marnisi book before I can confidently tell my mother or sister that I love them. If Islam says common sense things, I do not need to read them to know about them and if it is against common sense, it is not worth reading.

Does Pakistan need common sense like love to mother and motherland or I need again to rush to Barnes and Noble or Borders Books? There is too much of Islam and too little of common sense among many Muslims.

Few individuals often recognize the information and objectivity in some of my posts and I thank tham. Subjective part are not without logic although arguments can be made differently. Then there is one (or twelve?) individual who fails to distinguish between objective, subjective and plain tongue-in-cheek writings. The person does not even remotely realizes that a desire to brand all major sects as non-Muslims is a joke and points to impossibility of reforming Islam from within.

I appreciate your response.

Regards,

Sameer

Jay 44,

``Now tell me about your version, hindus are the cause of division, why are so many muslims even now in india. FULL STOP.``

Because Jay, you dope, the Muslims wanted to piss you bazz-turds off. 54 years ago, they ripped a chunk off India and a huge number of Muslims still reside in India.

It must hurt you to realise that you may have won battles but you never won the war.

I DONT WANT YOU YOU DO ANYTHING FOR ME Jan-3-01 14:43:47 EST Reply #: 68

ProphetMuhammad

Hydraheaded Monster imposing as MAJinnah... if you dont want me using this nick stop using that...

``Dhamkee``........Threatening?!

Why should be my concern if you have Allah or Khuda as your nick.

And Mohommed was only a messenger of God.

Besides ,i dont buckle to threats

so for 3 reasons against 0 for conceding to your demand ,I DONT WANT YOU TO DO ANYTHING FOR ME.

Saminashah: Thanks for nice comments. You and I both understand well the need for analyzing failed experiments through informing ourselves of various factors involved at various stages of such experiments. Any justification of such massive failed experiments on the basis of minor variables (like religion or strategic depth for Pakistan) is irrational. Why was a virulent strain of Islam that failed miserably in Pakistan in every consensus/ election succeeded in capturing Afghanistan? The Taliban were practically a wholly owned subsidiary of Pakistani military and their Islam was an implementation of what is taught in madrassahs of Pakistan. From here on one can look into weaknesses or soft points of Afghan society. The weaknesses came to light very visibly during their costly and useless (strictly my opinion) war against Soviet Union/ Russia. Many other countries were also practically under USSR military domination but those societies did not go to an extent of self-destructing completely in order to for Russians withdrawal. One must also look at the extent Pakistani military was ready to go to implement their agenda. They destroyed a nation state, increased instability, threatened world peace, brought misery and hardships to Afghan people, imposed Neanderthals as Taliban leadership, compromised with sectarianism as unavoidable side effect of larger agenda - all without any repatriation of refugees. One wonders how far they can go if Pakistanis replace Afghan people and considered a hindrance in their grand design of self-serving agenda? They can not tell public that interests of the military are exactly the same as theirs, considering taking over country at will and running the country with PCOs. Do they ask public which Lt. Gen should resign and made governor of Punjab or President of Pakistani Kashmir? Seeing what they did to Afghanistan and capable of doing in Pakistan, sends chills through my spine. That is why I am a firm believer in subordinating them to elected civilian leadership.

And first step to challenge forces against modernity is to be well informed of failed experiments in as much detail as possible.

syed ahmed # 70

.... i kind of agree with what you have to say.... as usual i was trying to stretch a point to make a point - that religion should not be allowed any ``official`` role in government and politics .... to borrow from your example of trade unions being the result of a ``little`` communism, i am all for fireworks on shab-i-barat as a result of a little islam - other than that i cannot find any other value intrinsic to islam that cannot be found in any other religion or moral code of ethics which might be useful .... the minute you institute something good because it is ``islamic``, you are opening the door for nonsense like hadood laws and a ban on basant ....... of course, people should be free to shave their armpits - as a matter of choice, not because it is a religious injunction ........

Syed Ahmed: best post ive seen in a while.

Urstruly: I hope you`re no older then 17.

dost-mittar #50: I think it is rather easy to challenge yours playing the devil`s advocate or Urstruly advocate thesis. I do not buy the arguement that waving the flag of TNT, an unknown poet writing a poem with a verse, ``Pakistan ka matlab kya..........``, being born as a Muslim or even much despised bloodbath and ethnic cleansing at partition makes all avenues merging to one irreversible path with high probability of ending nowhere. Paths are paths and some of them are reversible with time, publicity and understanding Pakistani polity.

Let me start with the beginning. Perhaps YLH can explain this better because of his great interest in this area. Pakistan movement was unified in achieving the end but differed considerably regarding means and the future direction of Pakistan. An organization different than ML by the name of Pakistan National Movement existed and disliked by Jinnah on record. PNM followed Ch. Rehmat Ali more than Jinnah and I guess the poet who wrote that poem belonged to PNM. For a while even Iqbal was considered its supporters or one of the founders. The PNM vision started to dominate around mid seventies and exists to this day. Except for the deobandi version of sharia, PNM pretty much ardently believed in ummah and other Islamic issues with total disregard for the non-Islamic past, present or future around the world and at home.

Pakistan of 1947-1970 or so was very different than Pakistan of 1980-present. I do not believe that the current hoopla about Islam has anything to do with TNT or ethnic cleansing. Like Hamidm noted somewhere, dancing, drinking and other ``decadent western practices`` went unopposed in Pakistan during Ayub Khan`s time and before. Pakistan economy was doing better than Indian was with moot Kashmir issue.

Ist mistake to inflame the situation was `65 war. The Arab-Israeli war of 1967 started angry Islamic identity - angry with everything non-Islamic. The sky-rocketing of oil prices swelled Saudis and other gulf Arab`s coffers and they started buying seats in heaven through spending on Islamic causes and funding Islamic movements. The West and US looked the other way or tacitly approved of Islamic movement because of their strong anti-communist ideologies. Any clash between Islamists and Liberal West was accepted as collateral damage in the bigger picture against communism, just as Pakistani military did nothing to nab sectarian terrorist so as not to rock their Taliban supporters.

Zia`s rise to power and USSR troops in Afghanistan increased Saudi government and other Sheikhs interference in Pakistan`s internal affairs and lately due to the credit Saudis provide to Pakistan to buy oil. The madrassahs, jehadis, Taliban and Kashmir insurgency all took place during this period of last 25 years.

It really does not matter how much an average Pakistani is involved in Islam. In Pakistan politics, putting together a successful coalition of locally powerful feudal, tribal leaders, social workers, industrialists etc counts lot more than individual`s desire for Islamic system. Most feudal and tribal leader do not care if Pakistan is Islamic republic or democratic republic as long as they are allowed to compete as win in elections. Has NS been a secular, whole party would have become secular and because of his Saudi backing and connections, all supported sharia bill.

Believe me it is that easy. Just few and fair elections, military in the barracks, an unknown secular liberal leader from current existing or a new breed of politicians and boom!!!

Nothing happened when NS changed Sunday as holiday from Friday. No great anti India feelings or demonstrations when AB Vajpai visited Lahore, except the usual JI jamaatias who were no match for police in Lahore.

You may believe what Khaled Ahmed of TFT called logical end recently but I believe in truncating runaway religious fanaticism without setting fire to any boat. They will just sit and rot sitting idle. In Afghanistan it took few bombs, in Pakistan few elections!!!!!!

The way to bring down Islamists and Fudamentalists is through what is internal to Pakistan/ Pakistanis and not through Islamic reformation – something which is internal to Islam.

#38

Hamidm

Instead of recovery from Islamic disease ,Indian govt is encouraging its muslim cops to grow beards!!!

Very soon India may become Inshallah bearer of Islamic torch while the growin hair Armpit,alcoholic ,syphillitic & Aids infested modern muslims will come to dominate Pakistan Inshallah.

Rajasthan policemen get right to grow beard on



religious ground



Kamla Bora in Jaipur

The right to sport a beard while in service, which was earlier enjoyed only by Sikhs in the Rajasthan police, has now been extended to other policemen too on `religious grounds`.

The new government order is aimed at Muslims, an official spokesman said. However, those wishing to sport a beard would have to seek prior permission in writing from the department, sources said.

Permission is given subject to the condition that the beard has a `neat and clean` appearance at all times. Any violation of this condition would invite disciplinary action.

Once a policeman opts to sport a beard, he would not be allowed to revert to the clean shaven look without seeking prior written permission for the same, the spokesman said.

It would be up to the police department to take decision on individual applications on merit.

The department is yet to receive an application from any policeman in this regard, the spokesman added.

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YLH #67 I second that.