I Hate Ashley Giles

``pot-bellied fielders applauded pushes past point all the way to the boundary``

lol....loved it.

Dear gfm,

Obviously any semblance of consensus here seems far-fetched so here are some parting notes:

1. I am not using religion as a pretext for anything. I was merely giving you a heads up regarding my nick lest you go bonkers with these ‘b u m’ insults. The reason I rebuked you was because you based you argument on a blatant lie. Saying that SRT averages 30 in the 2nd innings is like saying Imran Nazir is better than Zaheer Abbas!

2. Comparing players of different eras for obvious reasons has its pitfalls but one thing is for sure, my conclusion regarding relative potency of bowling attacks over various eras would be diametrically opposite to yours. If you were to research various aspects like bowler’s strike rates, batting averages, average team totals & frequency of results in tests you would reach a pretty irrefutable conclusion that batting today is much tougher than ever before. All you have to do is watch some tapes of the various performances you laude such as SMG in 71, the quality of field settings and fielding itself is absolutely laughable!

3. If you include SRT in the same elite group as Sobers, Viv & the Don, it seems like a reasonable assessment but you only tarnish the sanctity of this group by pulling in Hobbs, Compton & Barry Richards. Why these dudes? I mean while you’re at it let’s start throwing in Ponsford, Sutcliff, Hammond, Pollock, Gavaskar, Border! Hobbs is terribly over-rated. The pomms have this fetish with those who are prolific scorers in the counties. If you ask them Greame Hick is the best thing since sliced bread! Jack Hobbs averaged less than Tendulkar in an era where pot-bellied fielders applauded pushes past point all the way to the boundary lest their whites get sullied! Dennis Compton averages less than Rahul Dravid! And my favorite! Barry Richards the dumb ass! This dude played 4 tests in his lifetime and averages 72. Well Azhar averaged 90 after his first 4! Barry Richards has a first class average of like 54! Barry Richards indeed!

4. Here’s what Tendulkar will end up with in all likelihood if he stays relatively healthy and plays till 38:

Test runs: 16000 (next best 11000)

Test tons: 50 (next best 35)

ODI runs: 23000 (next best 10000)

ODI tons: 75 (next best 19!!!)

Lets see you compare him to Hobbs, Compton & Barry Richards then!

Nice Chatting.

Dear gfm,

Obviously any semblance of consensus here seems far-fetched so here are some parting notes:

1. I am not using religion as a pretext for anything. I was merely giving you a heads up regarding my nick lest you go bonkers with these ‘b u m’ insults. The reason I rebuked you was because you based you argument on a blatant lie. Saying that SRT averages 30 in the 2nd innings is like saying Imran Nazir is better than Zaheer Abbas!

2. Comparing players of different eras for obvious reasons has its pitfalls but one thing is for sure, my conclusion regarding relative potency of bowling attacks over various eras would be diametrically opposite to yours. If you were to research various aspects like bowler’s strike rates, batting averages, average team totals & frequency of results in tests you would reach a pretty irrefutable conclusion that batting today is much tougher than ever before. All you have to do is watch some tapes of the various performances you laude such as SMG in 71, the quality of field settings and fielding itself is absolutely laughable!

3. If you include SRT in the same elite group as Sobers, Viv & the Don, it seems like a reasonable assessment but you only tarnish the sanctity of this group by pulling in Hobbs, Compton & Barry Richards. Why these dudes? I mean while you’re at it let’s start throwing in Ponsford, Sutcliff, Hammond, Pollock, Gavaskar, Border! Hobbs is terribly over-rated. The pomms have this fetish with those who are prolific scorers in the counties. If you ask them Greame Hick is the best thing since sliced bread! Jack Hobbs averaged less than Tendulkar in an era where pot-bellied fielders applauded pushes past point all the way to the boundary lest their whites get sullied! Dennis Compton averages less than Rahul Dravid! And my favorite! Barry Richards the dumb ass! This dude played 4 tests in his lifetime and averages 72. Well Azhar averaged 90 after his first 4! Barry Richards has a first class average of like 54! Barry Richards indeed!

4. Here’s what Tendulkar will end up with in all likelihood if he stays relatively healthy and plays till 38:

Test runs: 16000 (next best 11000)

Test tons: 50 (next best 35)

ODI runs: 23000 (next best 10000)

ODI tons: 75 (next best 19!!!)

Lets see you compare him to Hobbs, Compton & Barry Richards then!

Nice Chatting.

Hey Pbum,

Using religion as a pretext when insulted after insulting first is a very weak trait in a human being.

If you consider yourself to be a good Muslim I would ask you to refrain from insults on others - Using religious initials in ones username doesn`t a good muslim make.

Now back to our lovely debate on srt. While Don Bradman did praise the great Sachin saying that he bats similar to himself he has outlined Sobers

innings of 278 against australia as th greatest innings he has ever seen followed by Viv Richards 291 at the oval. Also the list of his batting eleven seems fake even to people like Gavaskar.

I don`t know how to repeat this to you but I never said that Sachin is not great. He is a great batsman. I just value Sobers, Viv Richards, Bradman, Barry Richards, Hobbs and Compton above him. Considering the history of cricket I still say it is a great achievement for SRT and with another 10-12 years left in his career he can prove me worng - a strong possibility.

But he has a way to go. I believe the in past there were more quality fast bowlers around and had SRT been born then (15-25 years before) I believe his average would be lower. Facing the likes of Marshall, roberts, holding, garner, hadlee, imran, botham, willis, hogg, lillee, thompson compared today to the like of todays fast bowlers would have been a different treat.

You say bowlers like Razzaq and Nash trouble him now. I would even venture to say that Gavaskar is still a better test batsman (especially in the 70s (v WI)).

I remember the first time I saw SRT hit qadir around for 26 runs in an over and thought that this guy is the real thing. He had aggression and the strokes and the timing. I just feel he is lost that aggression against quality pace and just needs to take the game to the bowlers. Mind you he has done it as you rightly point out but more less than often.

Its probably becuase he has to stay there for India most of the time - and can`t afford to take the risks.

Dear gfm,

The ‘b u m’ in my nick stands for ‘Be Upon Mohammad’. So please be careful where you go with that.

You make the two big mistakes people make (deliberately) in accessing greatness or lack thereof. You give more credence to individual performances than a cumulative body of work and you discredit an individual’s performance due to the dismal performance of his team.

I can’t remember a single significant instance of an Indian team out-batting an opposition to win a test match recently. The only time the Indian team wins is when assisted by home conditions its spin attack is able to bowl the opposition out twice. Even in the Laxman/ Dravid game that you talk about, the partnership saved the game for India (which Tendulkar has done on many occasions). The win in that game was secured by the seven wickets the Indian spin attack took in the final session of the game. The spurt of seven wickets interestingly enough was nowhere in sight until Tendulkar took 3 quick wickets!

Also interesting to see you bring up Razzaq who has bowled Tendulkar three times in ODIs. Tendulkar himself has said that the three bowlers he has the most trouble with are Cronje, Nash & Razzaq. These are all bowlers who can move the ball both ways at 125-140 kph with a lot of variation in length & pace. This is the kind of bowler that bothers Tendulkar the most because his over zealousness to score couple with the uncertainty in pace forces him into shots that are unwise.

Tendulkar has taken the likes of Donald & Lee to the cleaners many a time! And while you are mentioning ODI performances, how about Tendulkar’s 130s in back-to-back games (semis & finals) against Australia at the peak of their game? These were games where every single person in the ground and watching on TV knew that one ball (that gets Tendulkar out) will mean its over for India and the guy hammered them through terrible batting conditions... sand storm and all to win both games. After this, the greatest spinner ever confessed that he got nightmares about Tendulkar.

Don’t diss the dude cuz the poor guy’s busy saving India’s rear end all the time and cant win all the games single handedly as 3 of his team mates are fixing matches for the other team.

And as far as the comparison to the Don goes, this comparison has not been ‘engineered by the Indian intelligence (oxymoron unintended)’, but promoted by the Don himself.

You don’t think Tendulkar’s the greatest since Don Bradman and you have a right to your opinion but I do think so and my opinion is corroborated by the late Don Bradman himself. But then, what does he know!

pbum

P.S: Oh and about being bowled frequently. Early in his career Tendulkar was considered `unbowlable`. The rap on him was to exploit the `drive on the up` tendency by putting in a short cover and always have both a point and a cover-point and then try short of the length stuff outside the off stump with pace variations to see if he hits uppish. Later in his career he became much more agressive and developed the drive through midwicket off balls bowled outside the off-stump (primarily becasue they were packing the off side for him). This is the shot that gets him clean bowled the most (the Shoaib & the Ambrose balls were blinders and exceptions). Viv Richards played this shot with impunity without ever getting bowled becasue he had a much better bat speed than Tendulkar. Off late Tendulkar has not been playing this shot too much and you dont really see him getting bowled any more.

And as far as Lara goes... He gets taken out by Tendulkar (including cartwheeling off stumps and all) all the time. I dont know if you`ve ever seen this confrontation but its funny beyond belief. Lara plays out maidens by Tendulkar and then flays Srinath to pieces at the other end!

hey pbum, (I can understand why you have the bum in your name)

Tendulkar is the greatest batsman to have ever come out of the sub-continent.

However in the present day of cricket I do rate Lara above him. Lara is the world record holder for the highest score in both forms of the game and has scored more double centuries than Sachin.

Yes Lara has suffered from a bad patch of form but his performanace against SL in the recent series showed his complete dominance of the bowling and the return of the old lara.

I have never really seen Tendulkar completely go crazy on the attack against a strong bowling team that has won India the game. On the contrary I don`t expect a batsmen of his ``esteemed Bradman`` class as you so suggest been bowled so badly so frequently. This suggests a severe weakness against quality pace.

A few that come to mind

1. Donald to sachin in SA (inswinger middle stump)

2. shoaib akhtar (Calcutta golden duck middle stump)

3. razzaq 3 times in a row (off-stump) united world series

4. waqar younis to srt (hyderabad odi)

5. ambrose to srt

Batsman I rate above Sachin are : Bradman, Barry Richards, Dennis Compton, Jack Hobbs, VIv Richards, Brian Lara.

Dont` get me wrong he is one of the greatest that ever blessed the game and probably the best on-driver of the ball I have ever seen. But when you compare him to Bradman and say he is the greatest since, then I am afraid he is overrated.

The average of 47 that you correctly told (sorry for my ignorance) is still not as high I would expect suggesting that he is weaker at chasing scores or playing for draws.

Plus wasim akram has a higher test score in test cricket than sachin!!!

Sorry, DRUMZ - I forgot to mention the link is called:``songs of love and devotion``

Chowk Editors and Chowkwallahs:

Apologies for sidetracking this board temporarily, but I have a request of all chowkwallahs:

I don`t know if I am the only one who has this difficulty, but many times on Chowk I`ve wanted to follow more than two reply threads and to have them visible on the screen at the same time. Rather than simply make a request, I`ve tried to solve this, and have put together a sample Chowk site at:

http://members.home.net/qawwalli1/

At the bottom of the page are links to the sample site. This is what you need to click on. To get into it the user name is: concept and the password is also: concept (both lower case). The page that comes up has a link called ``redesigned chowk``.

My humble request is to ask as many of you as possible to look at it and let me know if it just a waste of time or if it really is something useful. If useful, Chowk Editors, you may have it (if you like it of course!)

Now, for DRUMZ (and actually for others who may be interested as well): DRUMZ, a while ago you had made a comment that you did not find Islam deep enough or profound enough. That makes me ask of you a small favor: I`ve provided a link (named ``DRUMZ``) which will take you to an article on the same site. Hope you find it readable enough - I`d really like to hear your comments after you read it. No problem if you don`t (at worst you can always click right out of it!)

For those who explore the site further (there are visual goodies!) A warning!! This is a site that has Flash/audio and needs a cable or fast connection. Please explore, move the mouse around and click away everywhere on the fashion site page.

Dear gfm (numb nuts)

Yaar how come you flat out lie when looking at the records can easily refute your lies?

You seem to be suggesting that Tendulkar is a flat track bully and does not score well on the road. You also seem to be suggesting that Tendulkar chokes in the clutch by claiming that he averages 30 in the 2nd innings.

Tendulkar averages 47 in 2nd innings you liar!

You say Tendulkar is over-rated? Well, who would you say are the truly great batsmen of our time? Lara? Junior? Well let¡¦s use your criteria to determine true greatness. Overall Average, Road Average & 2nd Inning Average. Here¡¦s how they Stack up:

Overall Average:

1. Tendulkar - 58

2. Lara - 50

3. M. Waugh - 42

Road Average:

1. Tendulkar - 54

2. Lara - 47

3. Waugh - 41

2nd Inning Average

1. Tendulkar - 47

2. Lara - 40

3. Waugh - 37

So I guess if Tendulkar is over-rated then Lara & Mark Waugh are downright mediocre!

If you say that India is a terrible team, I¡¦ll give you that. If you say that the Indian Bowling attack couldn¡¦t dismiss Bhawalpur twice in five days I¡¦ll give you that. But don¡¦t call Tendulkar over-rated. Poor Don will start turning in his grave!

what a crock!!! While Sachin is a great cricketer, he was caught red handed by the TV cameras picking the seam of the ball. Nonetheless Mike Denness banning the other Indian players for excessive appealing was totally wrong and uncalled for.

Secondly there is nothing wrong with what Giles and Hussain did. It is within the rules of the game just like India makes flat tracks for test cricket so that its batsmen like Tendulkar can score and break records.

If Tendulkar is such a great bat, then why could he not deal with Giles leg side bowling? It is like getting angry at Murali for bowling sharp turning off spinners or at Brett Lee for bowling too many bouncers.

Thirdly, I can`t remember him playing a match winning innings in a test match -like Dravid and Laxman.

The bubble will be burst when you examine Sachin`s 2nd innings average in a test match which is lower than 30.

Overall SRT is a great batsman but heavily overrated

“Poor SRT, all that he had to offer to that negative line, was his butt.”

….negative line or not, the point being it worked, lured him into the trap and got him out…

creative perspective

obviously a lot more tales remain to be told using this device

umpires examining box of balls, balls making contact with sensitive zones, bottlecaps, balls being rubbed near szones etc, white balls vs red, night vs day play, retired balls, balls ground into the dust till the stitches come off

All this whining about the negative line is bullcrap. What`s stopping Tendulkar from taking 120 deliveries in his butt? I will guarantee you that after 3 overs of wasted deliveries Giles would have changed his line.

I think the line was justified because India is a one man team. Hussein thought that if he could tie up Tendulkar the others would fold up like a pack of Jokers, which they did.

Instead of bitching and moaning about match referees and negative lines and aussie agression, maybe if the Indian fans spent some time offering prayer to the almighty to provide 10 other good cricketers to supplant the one great one it`d be more productive.

Funny.

Mona

I wonder what this cherry thinks of The Rawalpindi Express?

Ras