America’s Responsibility

Zafar, Drumz, Rsax, Semiprecious

Its true...Tahmed is a Mensch...(giggle)...which means`` a decent, good person who has integrity and ethics...the word is spelt (cough): M-E-N-S-C-H..Yahuda, you`re familiar with this word, hain?

We have another Indian thinking he is the gift of God to mankind and he knows everything about planes:

``ArjumM

The F-7 is a Mig 19 clone.``

No the F 7P is the upgraded Mig 21.

Its Martin Luther King`s Day in the U.S..

Lajwanti,

Thanks for your response. I have no doubt that you have worn the burqa being a female Chowkie (cough) and all. I was fascinated by the list you posted of all the places and situations in which you have worn the burqa. Could you write a little about your experiences? (i.e. pta meetings, surgery, beauty parlor, rock climbing, Rocky Horror Show, etc...)

ALL SATISFACTORY, UNSATISFACTORY ANSWERS AND ATTEMPTS TO IGNORE THIS POST WILL MEAN YOU AGREE WITH MY IDEAS!!!

regards

dost-mittarji;

[May the only fires that burn in the land of five rivers be the bonfires of Lohri]

- Do you ever see the day when Indian Punjabis can freely celebrate Basant in Lahore, with Gurdas Maan, Hans Raj Hans and Jagjit Singh singing for a mixed crowd of Muslim Hindu and Sikh Punjabis, dancing side by side, celebrating the great PUNJABI festival, in the capital of Five Rivers, Lahore?

At the very least, it would be good for East

dost-mittarji;

[Happy Lohri to DullaBhatti, Stuka, Shammi, Pardesi, Harpreet, SameerJB, Rjanjua, Tahmed321, Urstruly and all other Punjabis]

- And to you too sir.

:)

shah/hydra

Still haven`t dealt with the points that were brought up in my last post...why do you bring up an argument and then abandon it faster than a car with sugar in its` gas tank? I guess your arguments don`t travel very far...

1. One`s relationship with Islam is NOT the jursidiction of another person, especially IF the Muslim is coercing, assaulting and depriving another person/people of his/her/their humanity. Therefore, a woman who decides to wear a dupatta in Afghanistan is an unmeasurably better Muslim than an ``jihadi`` criminal who boards a plane with Happy Exploding Shoes.

2. Your ``Islamaphobe`` spasm doesn`t play; moderate people who all faiths have more in common than a moderate Muslim and a fundo. And so yes, be prepared for us to take notes on what fundos across the board have in common and how to deal with them. Fundos and those who have delusions about knowing what ``TRUE`` Islam are a threat and an annoyance to any decent, tolerant society.

3.Did you have any other points? I don`t think so...

4. When and where did you wear your burqa? For how long? What were the circumstances? How does wearing the burqa ``for fun`` and VOLUNTARILY compare with the coercive contexts that many Muslim women are forced to wear it?

Again, DO TRY to stick to the points.....

Nasah # 290;

[Pakistan`s nukes will kill ONLY the Hindus and Spare the Muslims of Delhi -- and India`s ones will ONLY kill the Muslims and spare the Hindus of Karachi!!]

- And only the Sikhs will survive. We are invincible against everything. In fact all we have to do is say ``Whai Guru Satnam`` and close our eyes and we will be protected from the blast, even if the missile was to land on our heads. My Grandfather told me so. More whiskey for us. 24 hour bhangra. No more Brahmins or Mussulmaan. Paradise.

:)

But seriously nasah, that was a cool post. What is needed at this point in time is a sub-continental Dr Strangelove, a book or a film, to show the sheer incomprehensible insanity of this situation we even find ourselves discussing. The subject, the possible liquidation of one billion people, can only be comprehended by a kind of chattering madness which the thought induces.

And anyone who hasnt seen Dr Strangelove, a masterpiece of cold war black comedy, get it on video. Peter Sellers and Stanley Kubrick. And just picture the Indian and Pakistani bunkers, while watching it.

Because there is an endemic annihalationist impulse in the sheer hatred on both sides. Ask yourselves seriously, do you trust those with their fingers on the button?

yours mushroom cloudingly

harpreet

Reply Drumz # 348

``What does it say about US, when our heroes speak so simply? That simple things like tolerance and respect are considered SO GREAT to us?``

Drumz Mian,

These things are easy to think about, and even to articulate, but not so easy to act out every day, and with everybody. Tahmed seems to succeed here, at least on Chowk, most of the time. Hence general high regard. (Tahmed, check bhejiye! Jaldi!!!!!!)

These things are indeed simple (it`s not rocket science) but the they are also the bedrock of civilised behavior/ civilisation. Good interactions, problem solving, resolution, even learning, all flow from these. Restricting ourselves to Chowk, contrast the interactions resulting from Tahmed`s, or Samina`s or Prem`s posts with interactions resulting from Urstruly`s, or Deepika/Lajwanti Et Al`s, or Ali1`s.

An interaction`s starting point has a profound influence on where it ends and what it achieves. (Sounds like something out of Dune, na?) At their best, interactors on chowk contribute to civilisation. Often we do just the opposite.

I suspect that we unconsciously tend to like people who contribute in this way (I hadn`t really thought this out before) - perhaps our survival instinct at work?

Um...hope that makes my opinion clearer.

Zafar

PS And you`re right - these qualities SHOULD be universal. But look at the world - they`re not. And I think that this is true for a lot of places - not just desi related sites and spaces. We are, perhaps, just less slick in how we package our prejudices and antagonisms.

PPS I am also completely a fan of RSax, Harimau, Bapu (yes!) and occasionally Ali1 - order must be balanced with chaos. Say something nice about Discordia at this point.

AnNy:

I did some research, and I apologize for some faulty assumptions. I was confusing MES (Military Engineering Services) and the EME. Though both come under Corps of Engrs, they are distinct cadres, with the former having a reputation for corruption up and down the ranks.

In the Indian Army, the EME comprises of Bengal Sappers, Madras Sappers and Bombay Sappers, all distinguished regiments.

Again, my apologies for the confusion.

Later

``Aik hum hain keh liyaa upnee hee soorat ko bigaar

Eik voh hain,jinhain tasveer banaa aatee hai``

tr:

Now here we are;face--contorted,grimaced.

And there are those who create beautiful art.

REPORT BY:Abdul Hamids`(John Walkers`) cousin

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Published Monday January 07, 2002

By Thomas Maguire

John Walker was captured by US Troops in Mazar-i-Sharif late last year. After being held in a freezing cold, steel shipping container in Kandahar, he was moved to the USS Bataan warship in the Arabian Sea, where he continues to be held in inhumane conditions and solitary confinement. His story puts shame on many Muslims, especially those Muslims in America, who migrated to America from their home countries and lost their religion. May Allah hasten his release from the Crusaders who respect no rights or laws and make him an example to Muslim youths.

This article was submitted to MIRROR by Thomas Maguire, who is the cousin of John Walker.

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I first met John Walker during a trip to visit his family before my junior year of college, in 1995. Although I was six years senior to him, I found John to be a mature and thoughtful individual whose interests and curiosities closely paralleled my own. We both nurtured a fledgling interest in Islam that chiefly centered on the pseudo-Muslim murmurs within hip-hop music. While my interest in Islam stalled around issues of social freedom and self- gratification, John exhibited a glowing innocence that propelled him to openly investigate the truth of Islam.

After graduating from college in 1997, I moved to the Bay Area, and John and I had a chance to spend more time together. It was then that he finally declared his faith in Islam. Having witnessed various intervals of his journey, it was clear that conversion brought him an inner satisfaction and a sense of completion. John, now Sulayman, introduced me to some knowledgeable Muslims who were able to answer some of my nagging questions about the religion. Soon after, I took the shahada as well and accepted Islam. As I began to meet Muslims in the Bay Area, those who already knew Sulayman spoke of him with admiration and enthusiasm. I can still remember the smiles people offered me when I mentioned that I was his cousin.

Sulayman and I only spent a short time together after we had both become Muslim. I moved to the East coast, and Sulayman eventually left for Yemen to begin learning Arabic. For several years, although I identified myself as Muslim, I dragged my feet in making the necessary changes in life-abandoning haram practices, establishing prayer and fasting. It wasn`t until I got married in 1999 that I began to address my lack of attention to Islam. At this time, Sulayman was in Yemen for the second time, and we began to communicate by email.

Like many Muslim converts, I was disillusioned by the unfortunate factionalism in the Islamic world. When I committed myself to practicing the religion properly, I still worried about navigating the various perspectives and in-fighting among Muslims. Sulayman has been portrayed by the media as impressionable and naïve-easily led into extremism. Yet, when I encountered different groups and schools of thought within Islam, I always found that Sulayman offered a carefully balanced and knowledgeable critique of various perspectives without condemning or damning those with whom he disagreed. In this area, Sulayman has been the most exemplary person I have known in his ability to balance an intense commitment to the purest elements of Islam with a general tolerance of other Muslims. Although he remains in the relatively early stages of Islamic knowledge, his personal qualities-faith, patience, piety, kindness-are like those that I have witnessed among the most learned in religion.

Last Spring, at age 25, I once again went to my 19 year-old younger cousin, for his trustworthy and thoughtful advice about another group of Muslims-the Taliban. With doubts about the validity of Western propaganda against the Taliban, and realizing that Sulayman`s experience in Pakistan may give him more direct knowledge; I asked what he thought of the movement. He explained that his view of the Taliban was built on consistently positive impressions from a series of personal interactions. He wrote that there are ``many things I`ve seen in the Taliban that have led me to believe that they are indeed what they claim to be-the one and only purely Islamic state in the world.``

Sulayman approached the Taliban like he did all Muslims-with tolerance, positive expectations, and the best of manners. Far from being naïve and foolish, Sulayman practiced the often difficult and commonly overlooked etiquette of approaching other Muslims without suspicion. Like any self- respecting Muslim, the Qur’an and Sunnah alone attracted Sulayman to the Taliban rhetoric of ruling. If the Taliban were insincere in pursuing their stated goals, Sulayman cannot be held responsible.

Sulayman`s parents assert that he was always a pacifist. Indeed, Sulayman remains a pacifist. The Qur`an clearly states that Muslims must stand up and defend a just cause, even if their hearts are averse to it. That is exactly what Sulayman did. Newsweek reported that Sulayman first went to fight in Kashmir. While Muslims in America, including myself, are content with making duas (prayers) for the oppressed people of Kashmir, Sulayman risked his life for people he had never met, and only for the sake of Absolute Justice (Al- Adl). Similarly, if Sulayman engaged in any fighting against a band of rapists and thugs neatly dubbed as the Northern Alliance, he maintained a pattern of behavior consistent with any standard of heroism. Moreover, even if Sulayman`s good intentions were wrongly manipulated during his journey in Afghanistan, he entered the country long before the current conflict, never intended to abandon his citizenship, and never actively fought against the U.S.

Sulayman`s grandmother, my aunt, once accused me of ``getting John into this Islam stuff``, but a reasonable assumption considering our age difference. Insha`Allah (God willing), I would be blessed if I was at all responsible for his development as a Muslim. Years ago, when Sulayman was introducing me as a new Muslim at a San Francisco mosque, one person commented that ``his deen (faith) is thicker than blood.`` Yes, Sulayman is my cousin, so I will support him out of family loyalty. But as Sulayman`s brothers and sisters in Islam, Muslims must work to defend him against any unjust prosecution.

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``Ho agar aaj `Braheem kaa eeman paidaa

Aag kar saktee hai,andaaz e gulistaan paidaa``

(Contd from 343)

DRUMZ--337

Lucky to find Auden on net.Here is one of my favourite poem by him.I`m sure most of us must be familiar with it.

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The Unknown Citizen

(To JS/07/M/378/ This Marble Monument

Is Erected by the State)

He was found by the Bureau of Statistics to be

One against whom there was no official complaint,

And all the reports on his conduct agree

That, in the modern sense of an oldfashioned word, he was a saint,

For in everything he did he served the Greater Community.

Except for the War till the day he retired

He worked in a factory and never got fired

But satisfied his employers, Fudge Motors Inc.

Yet he wasn`t a scab or odd in his views,

For his Union reports that he paid his dues,

(Our report on his Union shows it was sound)

And our Social Psychology workers found

That he was popular with his mates and liked a drink.

The Press are convinced that he bought a paper every day

And that his reactions to advertisements were normal in every way.

Policies taken out in his name prove that he was fully insured,

And his Health-card shows he was once in hospital but left it cured.

Both Producers Research and High-Grade Living declare

He was fully sensible to the advantages of the Installment Plan

And had everything necessary to the Modern Man,

A phonograph, a radio, a car and a frigidaire.

Our researchers into Public Opinion are content

That he held the proper opinions for the time of year;

When there was peace, he was for peace; When there was war,he went.

He was married and added five children to the population,

Which our Eugenist says was the right number for a parent of his generation.

And our teachers report that he never interfered with their education.

Was he free? Was he happy? The question is absurd:

Had anything been wrong, we should certainly have heard.

W.H. Auden

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Mr.Hobbyty---344

But don`t we all try?I believe everyone here on CHOWK is very sincere---sometimes to the point of obnoxiousness(myself incl.) but sincere nonetheless.

``Jin ko mutlab naheen hotaa voh sataatay bhee naheen``;)----Thanks anyway!

Tahmed/Zafar: What caused me to write this was tahmed being mentioned 9,987 times on each thread (Thats too much power for one man to have, lol).

I shoulda qualified it better cuz Zafars post dealt with your sense of humour, open mindedness, politeness, honesty and humbility. Im sure these are wonderful qualities and everything, but I wanna know what about ur political/religious stance makes u so SUPERIOR to everone else. WHY do they look up to U?

The bit about our heroes is this: Tahmed (to my memory) has not said anything groundbreaking. All his posts deal with iz common sense, that iz all. I mentioned that most children can think clearly, while it is almost impossible for adults to do such... they get clouded by sophistry...

What does it say about US, when our heroes speak so simply? That simple things like tolerance and respect are considered SO GREAT to us? What duz that reveal about the Desi mindset? I dont doubt that Tahmed is GREAT. What`s puzzling is how tolerance (((TOLERANCE!!!))) amounts to greatness for us. No one should have to mention U at all. Tolerance should be a got damn universal quality. How BACKWARDZ are we??? See what im saying? A Paki who duzent hate Indians is considered God sent???

PS: My brother just walked up and started punching me for no reason, LOL. That FOOL needs a Hug or a role model (or HOPEFULLY a visit from AZRAEL - Im only kidding, or am I?)... Anywayz, im gonna reconfigure his face now, peace out.

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DRUMZ #337 You write ``Tahmed: Why do u think people speak so highly of u here?``

Very kind of you to say that...I do have some good ``chowk-friends``, but I have had my share of nasty interactions too (where I am not totally blameless either).

You continue: ``Please be explicitely clear (5 points), what about him is sooo appealing, which stance, idea, beleif etc...``

You are making me giddy with pleasure. Unfortunately, I dont think the assumption about my posts being ``appealing`` is generally true. Therefore, I should ask you (should you care to respond): Is there any particular post I wrote that caused you to write this? If not, what prompted you to write this note? I will then try to write more such posts :-).

Anyway, thanks again for your appreciative words.

Reply Drumz # 337

``...why is tahmed held in such high esteem?). Please be explicitely clear (5 points), what about him is sooo appealing, which stance, idea, beleif etc...``

Drumz Mian,

Tahmed is

1 Always honest,

2 Almost always polite (99.9% of the time, though that 0.1% is sometimes a kicker...personally I wish that he`d make up with another v decent person on this board, Sadna, but that`s just my sentimental side, don`t mind me, I`ll just sit here in the dark...),

3 Open enough to admit mistakes and to learn from other posters - and to consistently THANK them for the interaction (is this civilised or what?),

4 Humble enough not to be a schmuck when other people make mistakes and learn from him - rather, he`s encouraging (as when correcting moi re: ijtehad and other bits and pieces about Islam...). AND

5 Has a great sense of humour (well he`s Punjabi, so this may be genetic, though now that I think of it Urstruly is also...ok, forget the genetic thing, although Harpreet has discussed the sikh possibility...khair...moving right along... Anyway, now I have to give an example...anybody remember the ``Pakistan`s Unique Culture`` discussion? And Tahmed`s immortal contribution? If not, let me report (as I remember it) ``Bachao! Koi hai mere unique culture to bachane vaala?`` What a guy, what a guy... vaisai koi thha hi nahin bachane vala, but that is separayte is-sue, na?)

Zafar

PS Please note, these are personal qualities, NOT opinions. I think these things are true of Tahmed, even when he (misguidedly, I am sure. taubah taubah taubah) expresses opinions with which I do not agree. Basically it boils down to being decent with other people, whether you agree with them or not.

[Er, Tahmed, check bhejne bhoolna nahin, alright....]