An Indian salute for President Musharraf

````NEW DELHI, Jan 21: President Pervez Musharraf is committed to ushering a modern Islamic state in Pakistan which seeks to build an abiding friendship with India , a quest nurtured by the Quaid-i-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah himself, Islamabad`s envoy in New Delhi Ashraf Jehangir Qazi said on Monday.

Speaking at a seminar in New Delhi which was also addressed by Indian External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh, Qazi lauded Gen Musharraf`s speech of Jan 12 as major turning point in the history of his country, adding that that would inevitably have a salutary impact on ties with India.

``These measures are aimed at bringing about a revolution in Pakistan but effects will be felt in India too, and we hope India takes note of the actions on the ground,`` Qazi said adding these steps would help Pakistan realize Mohammad Ali Jinnah`s vision of friendly ties with India.````(DAWN)

Can`t live without the word Islamic, eh -- ``Modern AND Islamic`` Pakistan -- no oxymoron? --well, what can I say.

OK BOSS Muharraf -- if you say so -- just remember -- you have to seek consensus from your countrymen and country leaders as well -- Pakistan is not a monarchy yet.

Anyway AMEN to that near/distant future of Abiding Friendship between Pakistan & India.

Meanwhile please CONTINUE the Abiding Extermination of Jihadi terrorism between Pakistan an India.

Good luck -- and many happy returns.

rajanjua # 459

George Fernandez doesn`t have to be radiation proof so long as Pervez Musharraf is not radiation proof.

shammi 450 . . . since you mentioed Vaishno Devi and implied, per se, that maintaining the path from Katra to Vaishno Devi was (correct and or incorrect) done by the Indian Govt/Army . . . let me give you a few facts:-

a) By historical haq (right) all commerce on the route, from porters to shops (except inside the last Bhavan/sanctum) has been with Muslims and continues to be so. Apparently the Devi willed it so ages before Islam arrived on the scene. Beats me how, but that is how it is.

b) The Vaishno Devi Trust is now controlled by the Govt., as are quite a few temples in India and a few mosques, because the religious trustees made a mess of it. Specifically in the case of the Vaishno Devi Trust, it was the Hindu King`s family which was messing with the money.

c) The bankers for the complete Vaishno Devi Trust and believe me it is a very very rich trust, are the Jammu & Kashmir Bank, again a very Muslim Bank with headquarters in Srinagar. Incidentally, J&K Bank (a private bank but supported by the J&K State) has been voted as one of the top three banks in India from amongst all banks (Private Indian, Nationalised Indian & Foreign) repeatedly. It has branches all over the country and is very efficient.

d) Security is tight en route to Vaishno Devi, but unlike the trek to Amarnath there have not been any attacks. It is said that the local Muslims ensure that peace here is never disturbed.

What am I saying?

All succesful religion is eventually commerce. If the Indian Government subsidises Haj and/or Mansarovar, there are always elements of commerce. Face it, the Haj Committee in India has people dying to be on it, fighting, why? To get at the money, that`s why.

I hope I have made it clear that making money has nothing to do with your religion in India.Making money out of religion, similarly, has nothing to do with your religion, either.

shammi 452 and romair 447 . . . and while you are at it, please find out which squatter has got my grandpa`s land in Jhung, thank you (it was adjacent to the Sials and was known as Kurraran dee ``hithaad vaalee zameen`` and ``uthaad vaalee zameen`` . . . thank you . . . I will let you have 10% each . . .no 7% each . . . maybe 5% each or you can share 6% OK final . . .

thank you

thank you

(not you, Shatru Sinha)

Ref Hydra-Shah #: 460

[ISRAELIS BE ALLOWED TO GO ON BELIEVING THE MOST RASCIST PIECE OF JUNK BELIEVING IN BLESSED RACE .IF THEY ARE SO BLESSED I DONT SEE A JEW GETTING OLYMPIC MEDAL ?]

I don`t know that Olympic medals are announced by race/ethnicity and not nationality. However, Mark Spitz who is Jewish won 7 gold medals in swimming in one of the past Olympics. Winning that many gold medals itself was a record.

[BE THE MOST VERSATILE STATESMAN?]

Henry Kissinger and Madeline Albright, US Secretaries of State, are both Jewish. Kissinger won a Nobel Prize for Peace.

[BE THE GREATEST IN EVERTHING WHICH THEY ARE NOT]

Jews have won more Nobel Prizes in Medicine and Science than probably any other race.

There is something to be said for having a very small scripture. You memorize it early and get on with the rest of your life. Jews are lucky in that they only have to learn the first five books of the Old Testament.

[SHORT BALD UGLY GEEKY PIECE OF CARICATURE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]

And I suppose you look like Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise rolled into one.

Ref hydra-Shah #: 460

[AND YOU BETTER START QUOTING & LIVING BY EVERY WORDS OF KORAN & BETTER NOT TRY TO RATIONALIZE KORANIC DICTUM.]

Are you living by the Koranic dictum that calls for killing the kaffirs?

Don`t try to rationalize that particular Koranic dictum or your failure to live by it.

Are you living by evry word of the Koran?

re: shah

{{IF THEY ARE SO BLESSED I DONT SEE A JEW GETTING OLYMPIC MEDAL ?BE THE MOST VERSATILE STATESMAN?BE THE GREATEST IN EVERTHING WHICH THEY ARE NOT SHORT BALD UGLY GEEKY PIECE OF CARICATURE !!!}}

...jews suffered perhaps the worst persecution in history and came back to be immensely successful, while the muslim world continues to pathetically wallow in self-pity...

....jews run and control Wall Street....and the American media to a large extent...jews (in israel) can single-handedly whip the behinds of muslim middle-east countries several times their size...as they have in the past...i could go on and on about their accomplishments...they are a role model community...and they put the muslim world to shame...

Romair

#447

How do the feudals win hands down in their constituencies? Are the strong boxes in polling stations stolen or stuffed with counterfeit votes? Or is the vote ``open`` & not a secret?

Illiterate peasants are not stupid. In India, after Indira Gandhi declared an emergency, those very same illiterate peasants kicked her out.

If these feudals are so oppressive, why do these peasants keep voting for them again & again? Why not have a strong honest election commissioner who oversees the voting process & make the military guard the polling stations, so that no fraud takes place? After all, if the military is largely honest, they can ensure that voting is fair & confidential. How difficult is that?!

Delhi will hand over Pakistani criminals: Jaswant asks for list

NEW DELHI, Jan 21: India said on Monday it would extradite swiftly any Pakistani fugitives hiding out in its territory if Islamabad made such a request.

``Were any list to be provided by Pakistan of any Pakistani criminals sheltering illegally in India...I`ll immediately return them to Pakistan,`` Foreign Minister Jaswant Singh told a news conference.

``There`s no question of India providing (them) any legal shelter,`` he said, adding the government would ``work double-time to send them promptly back to Pakistan`` and would not engage in any ``legal quibbling``.

Last weekend, Pakistan said it had a list of criminals who had taken refuge in India and wanted them to be handed over.

Foreign Minister Abdul Sattar said Islamabad would ask Delhi to take action against them as a condition for its cooperation on a similar list of 20 men New Delhi accuses of terrorism and organized crime. ``Please let him send it (the list) by open fax,`` Mr Singh told a media conference later. ``He knows my fax number

END PEACE

The stupidity of the pakistani institutions in simply imitating the indian action is high lighted by this indian response. As one can see on the chowk, the pakistanis in general are devoid of any ability to think through the consequences. A good example is the likes of romair harping on human rights while keeping mum on the honour killings. As a nation pakistan pours millions into kashir jihad while nothing to contain the slaughter of women.

re: tahmed

Now, if only someone can prove to Fernandes that he is not radiation-proof - THAT would be jolly good.

I think mullahs in Pakistan are finished which is also jolly good :-)

rajanjuua #457 I suppose this means no one gets nuked in South Asia...and the mullahs cool their heels behind bars...now THAT is what I call Jolly Good!!

From the Hindustan Times

``Key commander was shifted at US behest``

Lt-General Kapil Vij, commander of 2 Corps was removed from his post after the US expressed ``concern`` over the forward deployment of the strike formations under his command.

Government sources confirmed that the Prime Minister’s Office (PMO) issued instructions that the general be shifted. Consequently, the army asked Lt-General Vij to proceed on leave. He has been replaced by Lt-General B.S. Thakur, the chief of staff of the Army Training Command, Shimla. The army had said that Lt-General Vij had gone on leave for personal reasons.

Last week US satellites picked up the movement of the Ambala-based 2 Corps of which Lt-General Vij was the General Officer Commanding. The satellite images apparently showed that some armour columns of 2 Corps had moved into strike areas from their concentration areas, which are generally at a safe distance from the border. Forward movement of strike corps can be construed as a threatening stance.

``The information was also made available to Pakistan. The Americans discussed the issue with Pakistan during US Secretary of State Colin Powell’s visit to Pakistan last week. Following this, the US expressed its concern to India,`` said sources.

The US reportedly confronted India with the images. But the government apparently professed ignorance, and denied that it had instructed the strike formations to move to forward locations.

From Washington Post (Sam Gardiner)

``If we have to go to war, jolly good.`` Those were the words India`s army chief, Gen. Padmanabhan, used at a news conference on Jan. 11 to describe the prospect of war with Pakistan.

I`m sorry, general. Maybe you were trying to show resolve, or prove that you`re tough. But I can tell you from experience, war between India and Pakistan would not be jolly good. It would be very bad.

I`ve fought in more than 20 ``wars`` between India and Pakistan. I`ve seen skirmishes turn into conflagrations. I`ve seen ferocious attacks across the border and defending divisions worn down. I`ve seen Pakistani commanders turn to nuclear weapons to fend off advancing Indian divisions. I`ve seen New Dehli - a city of more than 11 million - destroyed and hundreds of thousands of its residents killed in a flash. I`m sorry, Gen Sunderajan Padmanabhan, I`ve seen nothing that came close to ``jolly good``.

How have I seen these things? In ``wars`` that took the form of games played out by American war colleges and military services over the past decade - ever since the United States began to seriously worry about the consequences of a clash between India and Pakistan.......``

The whole article is a jolly good reading.

re asif n cont.

Now when you say ``Here is a little history of Jerusalem:`` please make sure you are not passing off a mixture of religious texts, historical anecdotes, and true history all together as `history`. To put it bluntly, it is intelletually dishonest.

YOUR: Muslims ruled with justice, compassion, and fear of God. A new era of peace, justice, and prosperity started under them. With the exception of an 82 year period of ruthless crusader rule, the area remained under continuous Muslim rule till 1917.

MINE: Come up with something stronger than Muslims are good and Christians are bad. That never worked and won`t now.

YOUR: Second, Western civilization, despite all the polishing and enlightenment, remains at heart a pagan civilization. Any doubts in this regard could be quickly dispelled by looking at the Halloween and Christmas observations alone.

MINE: If a pagan civilization can put a man on the moon and cure the deadliest diseases, why would we need any other kind? That said, your disrespect for Christmas is rather unbecoming. I trust you see Christmas as parties (do you frequent them) and I see it as solemn High Mass at Cathedrals.

YOUR: The world needs monotheism for only it can provide true universalism. And only it can provide peace and justice for all as it did in the past. The world is waiting for the forces of true monotheism to conquer Jerusalem once again.

MINE: Actually the world needs to hold Islamic countries accountable for this unhealthy obsession with Jerusalem. Jerusalem is in safe monotheistic hands and will remain so. You guys need to conquer your strange desires. Israel will never, ever give Jerusalem up, nor should it. As the Psalmist said

``If I forget thee O Jerusalem...let my hand forget its cunning and my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth``.

re asif 451

I`ve already dealt with the matter of the physical Al-Aqsa in post 431 which you`ve chosen conveniently to ignore. BEyond that it amazes me that you have limited original thoughts other than spewing the anti-Semitic propaganda machine.

Muslims have ancient rights to worship at Jerusalem but that does not create a paternal political right. As long as the regime controlling Jerusalem provides for access to religious shrines of all faiths, nothing more can be asked.

Your comment ``. When Islam came it superseded and abrogated all previous scripture so now the Believers are the followers of Prophet Muhammad sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam and not the Bani Israil.)``

My response: It is nonsense like that which fills people`s mid to the point that they end up doing crazy things like 9/11.

Your comment ``For us Jerusalem is the First Qibla, and the second house built for the worship of Allah (after the Kaba) by Ibrahim alayihsalam (?) and the 3rd holiest shrine, and it is a sacred land where many Prophets lie buried``

My reponse: So if some Hindu sect decides that they found the oldest relic of their goddess in Dhaka, I am supposed to turn Bangladesh over to Shiv Sena? Where do we draw the line, at the 4th, 5th or 7th holest shrine. Personally the only `shrine` a Muslim needs is his own clean heart (what kind of a `sufi` are you anyway?). A lot of my ancestors are buried around Delhi. Should I demand Delhi from India now?

Your comment ``When the great Sultan Abd al Hamid II was asked about giving up Palestine and Bayt al Maqdis he replied that it is not mine to give since it is an awqaaf which belongs to ALL Muslims.``

My response: You mean the same opium abusing fellow who had a hundred concubines and lost half of Europe? By the way, were the concubines considered waqf property too?

Your comment ``I think it is a disgrace that a lot of Muslim countries now have political relations with Israel. They should socially and economically boycott them and become united.``

My response: You just wait. By the end of this decade more than half of the OIC will have ties to Israel. I like the boycott idea; at least you guys have learnt after five whuppings that war doesn`t work.

I will adress your `history` part in the next post.

Reply Harimau, Sigalph

Re: Your kind corrections re: the Jordanian (not Palestinian Mr S) royal family.

Uff, instant karma. I try to serve attitude...and...get the facts wrong.

:-(

Zafar

Romair #347:

[If I were to give a percentage value to the problems in Pakistan`s democratic system, I would give feudals a percentage of around 65%, ambitious Army Generals (not the whole Army, and not all the Generals, just the politically ambitious ones) around 18%, corrupt businessmen around 7%, ethnic based parties around 5% and religious parties another 5%.]

I must congratulate Romair for figuring out the formula for calculating percentage contributions of evils in Pakistani society down in significant figures to a multiple of one - the 18 percent and 7 percent. All chowkies will greatly appreciate to have access to this formula. Someone might narrow it down to decimal level significance. Nevertheless, all the numbers do add up to 100, makes it better than divine inheritance laws of adding up to 112.5.

Anyway, I will keep it to a multiple of ten for the reason of being ignorant of the formula for refining evil index. I think it is 50 percent status of women in the society due to traditions + divine + revelations + business of dictating with explanation and making a killing in the name of the above mentioned, 30 percent due to hangover from Pakistan ideology a.k.a. TNT and 20 percent misplaced priorities such as excessive military spending. Feudalism and corrupt politician/ bureaucrats/ military officers/ businessmen etc etc do not add up to 10 percent and thus could not be added to generalization.

Are you familiar with the term urban feudalism? The art of accumulating choicest urban land in the form of plots whose price per square foot is as much as 100s of times more than per square foot of agriculture land.

[Two parties, PPP and PML dominate Pakistani politics. The parties themselves are insignificant. They are just the meeting points for feudal and their competitor feudal. If they all left the party and started another one, that one would become the most dominant; regardless of its agenda, manifesto etc.

It is just that feudal dictatorships of Bhuttos and Sharifs (himself a businessman but his party was all feudal) were pathetic.]

I just have couple of minor questions. First, why did a set of feudal were so thoroughly trounced by another set of feudal (PML Vs PPP) in the 1997 elections? Second, like TNT, feudalism played significant role in Pakistan movement when unionists switched to PML, delivering bulk of Muslims vote for PML in 1946. What is the justification of Pakistan ideology now more than feudalism? Both are either alive or spent fuel.