An Indian salute for President Musharraf

Romair 525 . . you are correct about the fact and way that Indians and Pakistanis are treated with equality in the Arab countries.

Can we have more details and info on this ``Arab Kut`` day?

Lets look at ROmair`s source:

1)Brian Cloghley

2)PIAD`s

3)Pakinfo

4)His own hot-air

ROmair

``So I would like to direct your attention to Brian Cloughley, who was hired as a consultant by the Indian Air Force, on the 1 billion dollar Hawk deal``

I thought we had a discussion on this and there is abosuletly no evidence that Cloughley was a consultant on the Hawk deak.

The rest of your article is mostly BS. A-5, FT-5 joint Pak-China projects, really now :-)

Re: Tahmed321

``...Take a walk on the streets of any Indian city and see how 90% Indians live. The day hundreds of millions of people in India dont live hand to mouth, that day you can start feeling proud...``

Yes -- that is why I am not so impressed by these achievements -- much bigger problems lie unsolved. Building devices is one of the smaller ones -- giving everyone the opportunity to build one on their own is a much bigger problem.

harimau #531 ``The way to get good treatment with Customs and Immigration in Saudi Arabia, according to a friend, is to fly First Class and dress in a suit no matter what the outside temperature is. Or one could do what Michael Jackson did: bleach one`s skin.``

Let`s not get ahead of ourselves - Your recipe applies as easily in India (or Pakistan for that matter) as it does to Saudi Arabia. The Saudi Arabians are third world people who happen to be rich, and the rest of us dont like that.

AlephNull #528: I have worked on fighter aircraft that are Pakistani hybrids of Chinese designs in Pakistan. So I am going to assume I know quite a bit more about them than you, and that this is only your emotion talking. At least that is what is indicated from your comment.

Easily the most successful technologoy devleopment in military aircraft in South Asia is the co-operation between Pakistan and China. There is one success story after another. F-6, A-5, F-7, K-8, FT-5 (not to mention the nuclear missiles) etc. Can you name one joint PAk-China project that has failed due to technical reasons (the only delays and stoppages have been due to finances; and nearly all of these were started up and completed successfully, once the finances were available)? If you cannot (which you will not be able to), then how can you make an assumption that Super-7 will fail? The whole orientation of the Pakistan Air Force is towards French Mirages and primarily towards Pak-China aircraft with US avioinics and missiles, and British radars and HUDs. All of them are flying successfully the last time I checked.

Also, can you name any of the above describe aircraft that are not flying in the Chinese Air Force, also. China does not develop aircraft for Pakistan. It primarily develops these aircraft for its own Air Force. Pakistanis have more expertise than Chinese on Western aircraft technology and provide input into those areas, which China lacks. If China is willing to fly ancient aircraft like A-5s (without the Pakistan upgrades), why in the world would it reject something state of the art like the new Super-7? Could you please answer that quesiton.

Most the development of the Super-7 is being done in China, while a smaller amount is being done in Pakistan. Why in the world would China put so much money into this project, if it was going to reject the aircraft? Pakistan only wants 150 of these aircraft, what is China going to do with the rest of investment, if it doesn`t want to fly these aircraft or export them? That is something that even India does not do. India has been putting in hundreds of millions into the LCA project, and is still unwilling to give up on it, even though it is a proven white elephant.

I have a feeling that you are not going to believe me, since I am a Pakistani. So I would like to direct your attention to Brian Cloughley, who was hired as a consultant by the Indian Air Force, on the 1 billion dollar Hawk deal:

``The Pakistani rolling upgrade programme for Mirage and F-7 aircraft at Kamra (my note: I worked there), near Islamabad, is efficient. Several western countries have provided advanced avionics and, in spite of sanctions, it appears there has been little or no cessation in either materiel or foreign technician expertise. Pakistan is semi-manufacturing the Chinese K-8 training aircraft which may be a reasonable basic jet trainer (the project seems to have ground to a halt; my note: this project was successfully started again and there are K-8 training Pakistani pilots now in Risalpur), but has not fallen into the trap of attempting to build a combat aircraft, as has India.

The Indian LCA (the Light Combat Aircraft) is a disaster. Western intelligence sources estimate that costs, in European equivalents over its years of development, in conjunction with normal budgetary provisions, would have provided India with a rolling programme of advanced combat aircraft and air defence ground systems equal in capability to those of NATO air forces. The LCAs` capabilities were dubious when it was projected, simply because the designers could not see far enough forward to envisage advanced displays and attack radar. In the short time in which such developments became commonplace, yet further technological leaps took place, leaving the LCA far behind. US sanctions involving technology transfer have affected power plant development, but even had this not occurred the LCA would be well behind schedule. In the quarter century of development the project has diverted enormous research and development resources from more worthwhile fields (like clean water in towns and villages), all in the name of national pride.`` (http://paknews.com/articles/1999/feb/art1feb-10.html)

Here is what Brian writes about the Super-7:

``These, together with other upgraded aircraft, have plugged the PAF`s gap to a considerable extent. Their improved avionics, and those of the Super 7 (a development of the F-7P) from China, raises much of the aircraft inventory to what the Pakistani air chief calls ``multi-role medium-tech`` capability.`` (http://www.piads.com.pk/users/piads/cloughley1.html)

It is, of course, possible for any project to fail, due to lack of planning, money etc. But going by the history, the Super-7 project should be actually more successful than even the previous joint Pakistani-China projects, which were actually initiated over fifteen to thirty years ago. In those thirty years, Chinese engineering and Pakistani maintenance and engineering have made great progress (specially the Chinese engineering capabilities).

The Super-7 has actually gone through three phases. It was originally to be purely a Chinese aircraft. Then a new project was initiated, with Pakistan, called Saber-2. This was changed back to Super-7 when Grumman of the US refused to provide the engine. This Super-7 was supposed to be an enahancement of the F-7P (this aircraft did actually make a test flight). However, this has been furthur enhanced to a third project over a few years ago, when it was clear that India was going to be purchasing Su-27s.

``The FC-1 was to make it`s first flight in 1996, but the project was delayed when Pakistan sought to upgrade the performance characteristics of the FC-1 to respond to India`s acquisition of Su-30MKIs. After several years of stagnation, the Pakistani Prime Minister`s February 1998 trip to China resulted in an agreement to continue development of the fighter. Currently Pakistan is interested in acquiring at least 150 fighters, with the Chinese contemplating acquiring over 200.`` (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/fc-1.htm)

It has in no way been rejected by China. They are spending nearly all the money on it (far far more than Pakistan). It is infact supposed to be the first aircraft that China (and Pakistan) plan to consider a competitor to Western export model of fighters. Exactly the opposite of what you are stating.

All the technical areas and challenges you have mentioned are accurate. But China (and China in cooperation with Pakistan) have an extremely strong track record of success in joint developments in these areas. Infact the PAF has one of the best flight safety records in the world, on these Chinese/Pakistan/US hybrids. I would thus be interested in finding out why you feel this particular project will fail, when all the previous ones between China and Pakistan were very successful? If it is because you dislike Pakistani projects, and that is the only reason, then I understand (but do not agree).

If projects like these had failed, India would not be hesitating to attack Pakistan. It would have done so by now. It is only due to successful projects like these that after having piled up its forces on the border, India is confused on what to do now.

Ten ruppees bet with you that India will not dare attack Pakistan, and that the Super-7 will be flying the PAF inventory as a replacement for the F-16 and F-6 roles, and that the LCA is the project which will never see the light of day. Put your money where your mouth is, my friend.

re hobby

there are israelis who speak urdu?

india has tested another misssile??? this is what you indians call peaceful intentions??? Do you indians want war??

AlephNull,

ROmair and Hobbyty are the kings of what is populary known as ``Have mein chodna``. They not worth our time.

Ref tahmed321 #: 517

[Your nationality etc. does not matter. There are only two nationalities in the world - the haves and the have-nots. All other distinctions - nationality, ethnic, whatever, are nothing compared to this one.]

The way to get good treatment with Customs and Immigration in Saudi Arabia, according to a friend, is to fly First Class and dress in a suit no matter what the outside temperature is.

Or one could do what Michael Jackson did: bleach one`s skin.

What is the crap I have repeatedly heard about Prophet Muhammad`s 1947 speech? ``The Arab is no better than the non-Arab among Muslims?``

Oops. That WON`T be a 1947 speech. It was a 783 speech.

Ref hobbyty #: 512

[War - I remain concerned but I don`t quite see it going nuclear immediately - actually, I`m more impressed by the irrationality they have displayed. The public statements of their uniformed services, in my opinion irrational.]

On the other hand, actual invasion and grabbing territory a la Kargil is quite rational, I suppose.

Guess what, guys. You have cried `Tiger` long enough. As Chairman Mao put it, Pakistan is a paper tiger. Even your nuclear teeth are not sharp enough.

Musharraf runs to China for help. Zhu Rongji comes to India on a state visit. That is the difference between hiding behind mama`s skirt and standing up for oneself.

Sayings of Chairman Musharraf.

````It is important for the future of the country and democracy that I remain there,`` (Musharraf)

The DEMOCRACY of ONE, by ONE for ONE!

Subhaan allah -- massha allah -- keya original kheyaal hai -- wah! wah! -- phir se kahiye! -- mukarrar, mukarrar -- aap saree zindagi ke liye -- President Musharraf ke budley -- President Mukarrar ho jaaiye -- khoda apki umer aaNt ki tarah draaaaz kare.

In fact -- tum salamat raho hazaar burus -- hur burus ke hooN din pachaas hazaar.

``I am going nowhere`` (Musharraf).

And inshaaallah -- Pakistan`s DEMOCRACY -- with ME -- will ALSO be going -- nowhere.

hobbyty # 502

``from what i read if the Indian attack does not come soon, it will not come at all - within the next 2 to 3 years design and manufacture of both Al-khalid and Super 7 variants, now that super commputers can be imported from US is a given.``

AFAIK the prototype Super-7 aka FC-1 has yet to make its maiden flight. We are given to understand that Chengdu will complete the following in 2 to 3 years: a test flight program, going through the entire operational envelope, testing performance in various configurations carrying and releasing an assortment of external stores; modifications and refinements to prototypes to iron out the inevitable problems; the readying of various requirements for serial production of `variants`, the tooling, jigs, fixtures etc., to allow this aircraft to be fabricated in numbers and enter squadron service. The ready supply of the Russian RD-93 engines is of course assured. And all this for an aircraft that the PLAAF does not want.

Verily hope lives eternal in the breast of the True Believer.

rsridhar #518 you write ``re: something to be proud about...I was a 8 or 9 year old kid when India first send its satellite ``Aryabhatta`` to space with the help of Ariane (French). India has come a long way since them. Today, it not only makes its own satellites (both light and heavy duty types)but has the capablility to put them into space from its own facility in Sriharikota. India`s missile program has also grown in tandem with its space program. ``

This is pathetic. Take a walk on the streets of any Indian city and see how 90% Indians live. The day hundreds of millions of people in India dont live hand to mouth, that day you can start feeling proud. Till then, people who danced on the streets of delhi when the BJP blew the nuclear weapons, the advanis who crowed about now being a world power - you are all full of you-know-what. To spare you the trouble of reminding me, I note that the same goes for Pakistan too.

Prem 510: Pakistanis and Indians tend to get identical treatment outside India and Pakistan. It is suprising how different we view each other as, and how similar others view us to be.

I had friends in Pakistan who used to celebrate an, ``Arab kut`` day in Pakistan. The aim was to walk around and find any Arab who was being rude to a Pakistani, and assist in beating him up. Quite barbaric and idiotic, but it had its charms.

I have yet to meet a single person, Indian or Pakistani, who worked in Saudi Arabia, and had anything good to say about the place. Infact, everyone I have met hated the place. UAE and a few other areas seem to getter better reviews.

I have been to Saudi Arabia for Hajj etc., and have made it a point to never visit the place outside religious reasons. They treat Pakistanis (nearly all of them) like trash. One cannot even get a visa to these Arab countries, until one reaches the airport. I was once dropped off in the middle of nowhere on the highway, close to Mecca, for no particular reason. The taxi driver didn`t feel like driving any furthur. I believe the Saudi police excercise complete authority over immigrants. and don`t treat them too well either.

Most Arab countries at the govt. level do help Pakistan with cheap oil, etc. But at the individual level, they consider South Asians to be lower class labor.

So, based on that, I think Pakistan has enough wars of its own to fight, and Pakistan should let the Arabs fight their own. Pakistan should condemn Israel`s human rights violations, but recognize Israel. I doubt Arab countries will de-recognize India for Pakistan`s sake. So why is Pakistan trying to be holier than the pope?

rsridhar #520:

[both suffer from delusions of grandeur, i think.

``I doubt India will ever agree to the US having any presence in Kashmir.``]

No Dr. rsridhar saheb, in this particular discussion about big K, it is not delusions of drandeur, it is called AIDS. For secular, Islamist and fundamentalists suffer from AIDS, i.e., Acquired Islamic Degeneracy Syndrome. For Islamists, Secular suffer from AIDS, i.e., Acquired Islamic Deficiency Syndrome. In fact, everybody who wastes their time in lengthy posts about Kashmir suffers from AIDS, that is Acquired Ideological Dependency Syndrome.

Kashmir is not worth taking so seriously for Pakistanis and Indians, about 1/6 of all humanity. It is all about an incurable disease.