Is Thackeray a Terrorist?

re: ylh

umm, this is a public message board...if you don`t like your nonsense being exposed, turn your candyass around and leave...don`t tell people what they can and cannot comment on...this isn`t your house...get it?....now please, don`t pull your old tricks and threaten to call your mummy again...

tvarad #409

Excellent, what is wrong with this? Even if it is at the most superificial level it is a positive thing. Does George W. not speak in Spanish sometimes?

This is the whole point of democracy and syncretic indian culture (our friends from across the border who spend all their time reading Chanakya keep missing the point). Soni Gandhi, italian-origin indian of catholic faith has both a hindu avatar and a muslim one. Sant Kabir was buried by his muslim followers and cremated by the hindus!

If the mahatma were alive he would be amused and a little impressed.

tvarad #409

Excellent, what is wrong with this? Even if it is at the most superificial level it is a positive thing. Does George W. not speak in Spanish sometimes?

This is the whole point of democracy and compromise (our friends from across the border who spend all their time reading Chanakya keep missing the point). Soni Gandhi, italian-origin indian of catholic faith has both a hindu avatar and a muslim one. If the mahatma were alive he would be amused and a little impressed.

well, Thackeray may be bad whatever way you point to but all his bad activities are confined to his country of residence. And Indian law should take care of that. But he didn`t do anything in Pakistan. we are seeking criminals who have taken shelter in pakistan and carrying out nefarious activities against another country. Pakistan is paying a hard price for horboring them. they don`t mind paying. let me pay till they realize how expensive game they are playing.

tvarad #408
``If Muslim leaders don`t see this in the fog of the Babri Masjid controversy, then they will be condemning their community to permanent backwardness.``

tvarad, I generally agree with your post with the caveat that the points you make are exactly appropriate for the `Hindu` community too. Bajrang Dali /VHP/RSS ranks are filled with unemployed youth with nothing more profitable to do, you can be quite sure. If their leaders continue with their obssession with a Mandir and donot pay attention to the real issues which you point out, these young people and others will have no future to speak of.

The second caveat is that its the Masjid which was demolished in independent India and hence its destruction holds more ominous symbolism of post-Independence India for Muslims than denial of construction of a temple on exactly that site holds for Hindus.

Dost Mittar,

Glad to see that you also pointed the obvious mistakes that Mr. Harimau makes on these boards. He is almost always so wrong in his facts, names and information that I am forced to wonder does he do it on purpose?



Interestingly Dr.Khan Sahib also became the Governor of West Pakistan in the late 1950s... but maybe that is too inconvenient of a fact.

The whole NWFP saga is just stupid to bring up because the coalition Ministry of Khudai Khidmatgars and the Congress had lost its mandates. People from Dr.Khan Sahib`s ministry had deserted to the League ranks, and the Ministry no longer enjoyed the mandate that it had put together by forming a coalition. Muslim League was clearly the most popular party even then. Having lost the mandate, Dr.Khan Sahib could have done the right thing, and held a new parliamentary vote to determine the new ministry. Instead Dr. Sahib stubbornly decided to hold off and was removed under the Government of India act 1935.

Here`s something interesting from TOI. Can we now expect Vajpayee to grow a beard without a moustache, wear a skull cap and rename his party Jaish-e-BJP to woo the Muslim vote? Enquiring minds want to know.

Sonia tries to woo Muslims by attire gimmick

MANJARI MISHRA

TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ THURSDAY, JANUARY 31, 2002 11:14:56 PM ]



LUCKNOW: The candidates thronging the UPCC headquarters for prachaar samagri (campaign material) have an unusual choice now.

There are two sets of posters, presenting two totally different avatars of the Congress chief. One has a smiling Sonia draped in her trademark bordered handloom sari striking a pose for the lensman with folded hands. The other has a new look Sonia clad in a beige salwar suit, head covered demurely by a dupatta, waving out of the mega-sized coloured sheet.

The posters are selling like hot kebabs. The stall owners, not the ones to beat about the bush, simplify the matter with a simple brisk query: Hindu Sonia or Muslim Sonia?

The `Muslim Sonia` poster, it is learnt, is going down extremely well in the Muslim populated areas. Party sources say they are already a big rage in cities like Rampur, Moradabad and Bareilly. In fact, Rampur and Moradabad, expecting a visit from her next week, have also come up with a repeat demand, they claim.

Printed in Urdu, the poster makes four promises to the voters. They are:Reservations for the downtrodden, power sharing equality and honour, removal of factionalism and `Bharat for all`. ``Congress ko kamyab banayen (make the Congress successful),`` it reads.

They have been devised and printed in Delhi, says Mirza Irshad Beg. ``We have just had the first instalment and there would be more `varieties` in the days to come,`` he assures.

Partymen say the posters show that Sonia has come of age. It was her mother-in-law and former Prime Minister Indira Gandhi who started the trend, way back in the 70s, of dressing according to the community she was addressing, recalled one party veteran on Tuesday. Sonia is learning the ropes fast enough, commented another, admiring the ``master strategist`` behind the idea. He said this poster idea will definitely win Sonia hordes of admirers in old Lucknow alone.

RE: Reply #: 357 Layman

``I also wish that India retains its pluralistic and secular character. The VHP/Bajrang Dal/Shiv Sena types need to be shown their place. They are negative forces, motivated by hate. Babri Masjid must be re-built and the masjid breakers punished, if we are to be a country governed by the rule of law.``

This old post got me to thinking as to why there is something incongruous about the whole issue of Babri Masjid.

In my opinion, those Indian Muslims twisting on the Babri Masjid issue are simply barking up the wrong tree. I have been visiting India every few months for the last 10 years and have seen the breathtaking economic and social changes taking place, especially in the last two or three years. This change is for real and is irreversible. For example, ten years ago, you had to wait a couple of months to get a car that you booked. Today, you just have to think about a car and you`ll have 10 salesman harassing you to buy their brand. The real issue for Muslims then is to ensure that they get a fair share of the growing economic pie. A person no less than the President of India who is a Dalit realizes this, which is why he talked about fair representation for SC/STs in the private sector. If Muslim leaders don`t see this in the fog of the Babri Masjid controversy, then they will be condemning their community to permanent backwardness.

I agree that the mosque issue has to be solved equitably. But it is a controversy from 10 years ago, from an India which was teetering on hopelessness because of economic mismanagement. Let it not become THE issue for Muslims. If it does, then the BJP/Bajrang Dal combine would have won and Muslims will lose much more than a small piece of land and structure.

My two paise worth of opinion on the issue.

Lest Rsaxena choose to lie about my Email message that I sent to him, I am posting a copy of it here on Chowk:



Listen Rsaxena,

I`d appreciate it, if you don`t bother to comment on my posts. My purpose has been decidedly different of visiting chowk from yours. It is clear to me that you are not the kind of person, nor do you have any intellect to be the kind of person, to argue on facts... you have admitted many times that you are in it for kicks... clearly your life otherwise is extremely pathetic that you need such a distraction. If you have to make statements `you are revising history` ... come up with proof... put your money where your mouth is... or leave me alone. I don`t have time for your games... and since you don`t know or understand what I am about, I suggest you heed my words.

Sincerely

YLH



This goes to all of you `obsessed with Pakistan` fools... who should go out and live a little.

Rsaxena,

If you think I am a revisionist prove it. Unlike you I haven`t made stupid statements without evidence and historical proof as presented by sources.

If anything you are the one who is trying to revise History. Partition massacres happened because Hindus and Sikhs were intolerant to Pakistan demand... and thats that. As for the Calcutta killings, I have already shown that Calcutta Killings can`t be blamed on the League especially Jinnah, nor has ANY historian including Pro-India ones like La Pierre and Collins, blamed it on Jinnah, and I have given 4 basic reasons for it. Go back and read them ...

ENDORSEMENTS

Usually, I don`t like `endorsements` to prove anyone`s greatness. I think Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah hardly needs anyone`s endorsement... but since people on these boards wish to put up endorsements in place of achievements. Hence I have taken a few endorsements out of many which will particularly sting like a Bee for all the haterz out there....



Gandhi, the Indian devta, on Jinnah

`Jinnah is Incorruptible and Brave` (Interview with gandhi Louis Fischer)

Amazing how some of this poor old man`s own followers accuse Jinnah of something that not even Gandhi accused him of. Reminds of what our own P.Mishra of Chowk called Gandhi once `The Ex-Father of the Nation` of India in one of his articles.



Nelson Mandela on Jinnah

`Ali Jinnah is a constant source of inspiration for all those who are fighting against racial or group discrimination.`

(Nelson Mandela had come to Islamabad in 1995 and had insisted on including Karachi as a destination to visit Jinnah`s Grave and his house in Karachi where upon reaching he drove straight to the Quaid`s Mazar)

At another occasion while addressing the ANC Mandela mentioned three names Ali Jinnah, Gandhi and Nehru as sources of inspiration for the movement against apartheid.



Harry S Truman, President of the United States, on Mohammad Ali Jinnah:

``[He was] the originator of the dream that became Pakistan, architect of the State and father of the world`s largest Muslim nation. Mr. Jinnah was the recipient of a devotion and loyalty seldom accord to any man.``



US President Bill Clinton:

(I am) A committed friend who will stand with the people of Pakistan as long as you seek the stable, prosperous, democratic nation of your founder`s dreams. More than half a century ago, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, shared that vision as he addressed Pakistan`s constituent assembly. ``If you work together``, he said, ``in a spirit that everyone of you is first, second and last a citizen with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.`` Pakistan can have a future worthy of the dreams of the Quaid-e-Azam. If you choose that future, the United States will walk with you. I hope you will make that choice. And I pray for our continued friendship, for peace, for Pakistan. Pakistan Zindabad.



Jawaharlal Nehru on Jinnah:

The old Advocate of Unity, Mr. M.A.Jinnah, ... was advanced than his colleagues, and stood head and shoulders above them. (Quoted from his book freedom at midnight)



Bulbal-i-Hind, Srojini Naidu on Jinnah

``a sincerity of purpose and the lasting charm of a character animated by a brave conception of duty and an austere and lovely code of private honour and public integrity`` (Sarojini Naidu Mohammed Ali Jinnah)

(power hungry eh?)

Tall and stately, but thin to the point of emaciation, languid and luxurious of habit, Mohammad Ali Jinnah`s attenuated form is a deceptive sheath of a spirit of exceptional vitality and endurance. Somewhat formal and fastidious, and a little aloof and imperious of manner, the calm hauteur of his accustomed reserve but masks, for those who know him, a naive and eager humanity, an intuition quick and tender as a woman`s, a humour gay and winning as a child`s. Pre-eminently rational and practical, discreet and dispassionate in his estimate and acceptance of life, the obvious sanity and serenity of his worldly wisdom effectually disguise a shy and splendid idealism which is of the very essence of the man. (Sarojini Naidu, Advocate of Hindu Muslim Unity)

tvarad,

Lets agree to disagree now...

Pakistan`s apparent failure doesn`t mean the war is lost. As Shammi said so well and I repeated, the final chapter in the history of partition and by default, the History of Jinnah hasn`t been written.

The reason I have quoted Jinnah`s speeches and his deeds is not to impress you or your countrymen. For all I care you can call him anything you want. The reason I have done it is because I want it to be clear to my own countrymen what our true legacy is and how we have deviated from it.

But suddenly you, and Harimau and others jump in uninvited and flood the board with your hate speeches all attempting to show that nothing progressive in Pakistan can be internally driven but has to be external. I think anyone can see that you people are insecure about your own country which though secular in name is slowly drifting into a theocracy and thats why you come to Pakistani sites to reassure yourself of your greatness... but when confronted with a different vision of Pakistan, its your insecurity that makes the likes of you attack that vision eventhough the vision of Jinnah for Pakistan, as mentioned so eloquently by Kuldip Nayyar, can go a long way for mending fences between Pakistan and India.



MaheshG,

You sir have the right to your own views, which as apparent to everyone are based on your own biases and the way you have been brought up to see things. Sadly movies like `Ghaddar` will do this to you. The disease you suffer from is not new. We have many in Pakistan with the same affliction of one sided narrow minded world views, but unlike them, you I am sure are not Madrassah educated and thats what worries me.. not even proper education can cure this disease.

As for your assertions about Jinnah`s mad pursuit of power ... once again you have the right to your own opinion... the point I made by quoting books, leaders, and authors and by `hogging` 40% of the space was that none of his contemporaries shared your view, especially the one true God that you all seem to worship ie Gandhi, who called Jinnah `incorruptible and brave`. Similarly I think it has been made abundantly clear that Jinnah could have gotten more power much earlier if he so desired but he refused. So no point in harping on ... we know that you have no idea about what you are talking about.



Rsaxena,

My contribution, unlike your amatuerish jokes which are rather unfunny, has always been positive. Maybe it didn`t occur to you, but I don`t care what you think of Jinnah or what your illustrious bigot countrymen do... My position has been Pakistan specific, and it is Jinnah`s vision for Pakistan that I wish to emphasize.. I can care less how uneducated about the man you, or your friend Mahesh G are... or whether or not he was power hungry (which is clear t

I find it rather sad that an `Ivy` League educated person like yourself has nothing better to do but put on display the pathetic sense of humor you Indians have, as admittedly you have declared yourself : `I come here for kicks`. Well let me say, my dear dear naive friend... get a life, how obsessed can you be with Pakistan?



Harimau,

Quite the master of the half truth and lies aren`t you Harimau... It is a well known fact what happened in NWFP. The Congress-Dr Khan Ministry no longer had enough support in legislature to continue... but power hungry as Dr Khan and his erswhile frontier Gandhi was ... they stuck on to the Ministry. The action that Jinnah took was perfectly constitutional under the 1935 Government of India act... which gives the Governor General/Viceroy discretionary powers in case of a security threat such as a fool refusing to give up the ministry having lost the mandate.

That Jinnah has gone down in History as a constitutionalist of highest degree must sting you like a bee... after all he is the only Asian Barrister whose portrait hangs in that `hallowed hall of British Constitutional tradition`?



By the way, when did I go to school in the middle east? Is this another one your many delusions? huh Uncle jee educated in nehru`s time? I went to a British school in Pakistan... but for your information, the Indian National Congress continued to exist some time into the 1950s and some of the quotes I have quoted earlier are from the leaders of that party.

tell me something... uncle jee... why do you keep repeating the same old same old again, when all your stupid allegations have been answered and your one sided reading of history has been exposed? Is there some seriously wrong with your brain... since you were educated in nehru`s time?

Does it not shame a middle aged fella like yourself to constantly beaten in debate by a 21 year old fresh outta college person? Do you like being beaten by a person less than half your age?

RE:Reply #: 399 Raw-ulcers

I think you put it succintly.

Everyone knows that the surest way to power is to tap into the vein of social discontent and come up with a scapegoat. In Thackerey`s case, it was first the South Indians but he knew that the only thing he could shake out of them was the curd rice they had eaten for lunch and so found his true calling in life: the protector of Hindus from Muslims who were taking over everything. Of course, the benefits of demagoguery are enormous: political clout far beyond grassroots support (sounds like someone else we`ve been discussing here, doesn`t it?) power and pelf(even the King of Pop had to put in his namaskars to the great Bal of fire to perform in Bombay) and a steady stream of moolah. You can imagine how much, given that Bombay is the commercial capital of India. And, as others have pointed out, it has become a one family enterprise. I need not point out the fringe benefits of controlling Bollywood (can you say Aishwarya Rai :-)).

From what I hear there is quite a bit of dissent in the Sena ranks but for now Thackerey clan rules the roost. But for how long?

veeresh #397 you write ``have you thought about that as the number of Pakistani refugees seeking asylum in India crosses 9000 (out of whom only about 3000 are Hindus . . .)``

Is this net or gross? I was of the impression that on the net we had more people coming to pakistan from india than vice versa. Not that pakistan is a bed of roses, but it is still economically better off than states like bihar and up from where many people come over. Of course it is incredibly dumb to crow about which part of the cesspool of the world (which is basically what south asia is) is better off than the other parts.

RE: Reply #: 388 ylh

``By the way, I heard an Afghan Woman of Northern Alliance`s interview on C Span and She declared `Burqah is an Indian thing and has nothing to do with Afghanistan`. Is she right?``

But wasn`t it Pakistani Madrassah R&D labs which improved on the basic design which made it permanent attire under the threat of being whipped should it be taken off?

Thakerey is not a terrorist. He is a criminal and animal of the lowest order. It started with local Shakhas where he was like a pracharak, or to say a political commissar. Then he spread his infleuence in Bombay Docks and Trade Unions. This way he could control local businessmen and industrialists under threat and under his control. He extracted money from them. He has been on the payroll for Oberoi Hotels for over thirty years. He is also in league with builders and contractors.

People who gave legitimacy to him is BJP and RSS. Today his family ventures into movie business and entertainment. He even decides fate of producers and musicians. He is a power broker in Bombay.

He is the venomous face of BJP. He is rabbid and a very dangerous man. Vajpayee paronises him. Real terrorists is not Thakerey but BJP. Thakerey is just a wasp like a ``yellow Jacket``.