Is Thackeray a Terrorist?

re: dost-mittar

{{MaheshG#498

``Please don`t say things like one person`s hero is another person`s villian. Show me one thing that Jinnah did that could be considered heroic.``

Would you deny that he is a hero to Pakistanis? or even some Indians? (ask Studebaker!)}}

one can be a devil to some, a hero to others...that`s life...even hitler was a hero to some...

Reply YLH # 510

Re: parsis – who, what, where, how many…here are some interesting sites.

http://theory.tifr.res.in/bombay/history/ethnic/parsi.html

“In 1780, 9.2% of the population of Bombay were Parsis. A first wave of migration followed a famine in Gujarat in 1790. By 1812 the number of Parsis in Bombay had quadrupled. In 1837, a second large wave of migrations to Bombay followed a huge fire in Surat. Today, more than 70% of all Parsis live in Bombay.”

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/1998/int/980316/india.html

“Today only about 125,000 people still follow the faith first propagated by the prophet Zarathustra (or Zoroaster) in Central Asia some time between 1500 and 600 B.C., and the largest concentration is in Bombay where Kotwal resides…roughly 55,000.”

You may notice that the two sources’ numbers do not add up properly, but they both say point to the role of Bombay in parsi life. The articles are all a bit depressing, in that they go on and on and the decline in numbers. Sorry – no ready figures on how many parsis where. Vaisai, I didn’t know that there were many parsis settled traditionally in Lahore (only family I can think of is the Bogas, and they moved before Partition?), so I guess live and learn. Perhaps Bina can be persuaded to tell us about it?

``Arre baba, instead of feeding me what other people have said about Jinnah why don`t you give me some arguments.``

Kitnay koi chootiyah hai tu. When I was giving you arguments your countrymen were busy putting up statements of Einstein on Gandhi, now when I do it, it is a crime.

All of Jinnah`s statements and his efforts after partition were directed at getting minorities empowered. This he saw as a fundamental principle for he had championed a minority cause to make Pakistan. Jinnah wanted a secular Pakistan.

Secondly I have shown with facts that Pakistan was endorsed by more non Musim groups than Muslim groups, though almost all of the Muslims stood overwhelmingly with Pakistan. The Pakistan demand was not completely unacceptable, the creation of a muslim majority state and a Hindu Majority state and both of them coming together in a minimal confederation was Iqbal`s and Jinnah`s aim. In 1946 Jinnah agreed to exactly that but Nehru rejected it through his `bombshell` at the news conference.

I don`t know what exactly secular means but Jinnah had 4 important phases in his Political career:

1) Secular Indian Nationalism 1906-1924

2) Indian nationalism on the basis of parity 1934-1940

3) Minority Muslim Nationalism 1940-1947

4) Secularism 1947-1948 after Pakistan.

Much is written about these phases, and alot on these boards as well... but you are too blinded by your hate to read it.

So please drop it now.

Read what freedom at midnight has to say about Jinnah. In any event, Pakistan was a necessity to be rid of bigots like you and Harimau. Read what he has been writing. Thank God for Pakistan.

#509 Sadhana

That was cruel!

You could make grown men cry..

ylh # 497

``... Try counting the years... Pakistan has been a democracy for 31 years and a dictatorship for 24 (which includes the reformist pseudo-dictatorship of Musharraf).``

I did try counting the years. Pakistan was a dictatorship under Ayub Khan from October 1958 to March 1969, and under Yahya Khan from March 1969 through December 1971, for a total of 13 years. It was subsequently a dictatorship under Zia-ul-Haq from July 1977 to August 1988, for a total of 11 years. And it has been a dictatorship from October 1999 to the present, for a total of 2 years and 4 months. Further, the period of Z A Bhutto`s rule as civilian CMLA from December 1971 to August 1973 should also count as 1 year and 8 months of dictatorship. This adds up to at least 28 years of outright dictatorship, leaving at most 27 years worth of non-dictatorial rule.

The various attempts made by Ayub, Zia, and soon no doubt Musharraf to `legitimise` and provide a quasi-democratic veneer to their rule cannot alter the fact that they could not be divested of power via the ballot box. On the contrary, Junejo`s government served at Zia`s pleasure and was eventually dismissed on a bogus pretext, hardly an endorsement of democracy.

One could in fact argue that the various elected Pakistani governments of the 90`s were not true democratic governments either, because they could be, and were, dismissed at will by the unelected establishment. Not a single one of those governments served out its full term. The form of democracy will only be established in Pakistan when governments succeed each other in orderly fashion as the result of normally scheduled elections or loss of majority in a national assembly; and when they possess ultimate authority over the army, rather than the other way around.

YLH,

Arre baba, instead of feeding me what other people have said about Jinnah why don`t you give me some arguments.

Why did Jinnah want Pakistan?

Your answer: Because he wanted Muslims to have the same rights as Hindus which he was sure wouldn`t have been possible in a united India.

I said: Please show me one right that has been denied to Muslims in post independent India that Jinnah was fighting for.

Your answer: Because he wanted to ensure the rights of the minorities. Because he was secular.

I said: Please show me how the rights of minorities have been protected in Pakistan. In fact, they have been hounded so much that they have practically non-existent.

So, please explain to me how was Jinnah heroic. Seems to me all his promises were main words. All his bugaboos were just those.



BTW, freedom at midnight blames Muslims for starting the violence during partition. A tidbit for you.

Shammi dearest,

I think my parents alone know more than 2000 parsis in Pakistan. My dentist in Pakistan was a very famous parsi. In 1980 there were close 200 000 parsis in the whole world, close to 60 000 of which lived in Pakistan.

Please also consider that out of the three major centers of Parsis in the Subcontinent 2 are located in Pakistan ie Lahore and Karachi. Furthermore, we know that Parsis have been very active in Pakistan... and Parsis, in the separate electorates used to win the seat reserved for Parsis, sikhs and buddhists almost always. Now there is a very visible sikh community. We know some of the Major parsis by name, Ardeshir Cowasjee, Bapsi Sidwah.

100 000 is a very accurate estimate of the total strength of parsis in Pakistan.



Dost Mittar:

Not Druze, but people of the similar beliefs are found in South Baluchistan... I forgot what they are called but their similarity with the druze struck me.

hariharan #505
``Now, Musharraf is saying that he owes his position to Allah. In other words, what he is trying to say, is that only Allah can ask him to leave his office after 5 more years in office.``

As long as he understands that Allah has also put the Indian Army at his country`s borders..

Re: YLH

``...close to hundred thousand parsis,..``

I read somewhere that Pakistan has 2000 Parsees, and India has close to 100,000. There are less than 200,000 Parsees throughout the world.

BB has spoken re Musharraf. Read this opinion piece in CSM dated 01/05/02.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0205/p09s01-coop.html

Thanks

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/050202/dlfor60.asp

Now, Musharraf is saying that he owes his position to Allah. In other words, what he is trying to say, is that only Allah can ask him to leave his office after 5 more years in office.

Thanks

im zuts glad they menson not kasmir

http://www.amnesty-usa.org/stoptorture/india_fear_and_discrimination.pdf

YLH,

But I am not that good of a follower of Jinnah so I will do what you are unwilling to do.

Dear Mahesh G:

GANDHI JI KI PYARI BATEIN:

a) CASTE SYSTEM:

GANDHI JI:

`Varnashram (Caste system) is inherent in human nature and Hinduism has simply reduced it to a science. It does attach by birth. A man cannot change his Varna by choice.`

(C.Sankaran Nair, Gandhi and Anarchy, Madras, Tagore and company 1922 Page 68)

Vithalbhai Patel moved a Bill against Caste system in 1918, which was supported tooth and nail by Mohammed Ali Jinnah. But my dear friends what was the great Mahatma`s reaction to it? He opposed it.

Gandhi ji said:

`the seeds of swaraj can be found in Caste system different castes are like different sections of a military division.`

(Dr BR AMBEDKAR `Gandhi or Gandhism`, Jullunder, Bheema Patrika Publications, 1970 Page 128)

Then on page 152 of the above mentioned book we find the following quote :

`To the Shudra who only serves (the high caste) as a matter of religious duty and who will never own any property, who indeed as no ambition to own anything, is deserving of many obeisances .. the very God will shower down flowers on him`

So here we have Gandhi and his benevolent stance on Caste system completely EXPOSED!

Now about Muslims

Gandhi Ji says :

`Prohibition against intermarriage, and interdining is essential for the rapid evolution of the soul`

and then if you read on you will find this GEM:

`(Just) like we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking the food should be done in seclusion`

(BR Ambedkar`s book Gandhi or Gandhism)

Gandhi Ji said:

`My own experience confirms that the Musalman as rule is a bully, and Hindu as a role is a coward. As a Hindu I am more ashamed of Hindu Cowardice than Muslim bullying` (Young India May 29th 1924)

And it is an accepted fact that `shudhi and Sanghtan` movements were instrumental in breaking the thin fabric of Unity ... so let us now examine Gandhi`s role in that

Gandhiji, :`Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity`

(Young India January 6th 1927)

Gandhi`s famous comments about the role of Religion in Politics:

`Politics divorced from Religion is like a corpse only fit to be buried` Bandopadhya `Social and Political Thought of Gandhi, Calcutta, Allied Publishers

Conclusion: Gandhi was the Devil.

(I am just playing the bad cop)

Dear Mahesh G:

GANDHI JI KI PYARI BATEIN:

a) CASTE SYSTEM:

GANDHI JI:

`Varnashram is inherent in human nature and Hinduism has simply reduced it to a science. It does attach by birth. A man cannot change his Varna by choice.`

(C.Sankaran Nair, Gandhi and Anarchy, Madras, Tagore and company 1922 Page 68)

Vithalbhai Patel moved a Bill against Caste system in 1918, which was supported tooth and nail by Mohammed Ali Jinnah. But my dear friends what was the great Mahatma`s reaction to it? He opposed it.

Gandhi ji said:

`the seeds of swaraj can be found in Caste system different castes are like different sections of a military division.`

(Dr BR AMBEDKAR `Gandhi or Gandhism`, Jullunder, Bheema Patrika Publications, 1970 Page 128)

Then on page 152 of the above mentioned book we find the following quote :

`To the Shudra who only serves (the high caste) as a matter of religious duty and who will never own any property, who indeed as no ambition to own anything, is deserving of many obeisances .. the very God will shower down flowers on him`

So here we have Gandhi and his benevolent stance on Caste system completely EXPOSED!

Now about Muslims

Gandhi Ji says :

`Prohibition against intermarriage, and interdining is essential for the rapid evolution of the soul`

and then if you read on you will find this GEM:

`(Just) like we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking the food should be done in seclusion`

(BR Ambedkar`s book Gandhi or Gandhism)

Gandhi Ji said:

`My own experience confirms that the Musalman as rule is a bully, and Hindu as a role is a coward. As a Hindu I am more ashamed of Hindu Cowardice than Muslim bullying` (Young India May 29th 1924)

And it is an accepted fact that `shudhi and Sanghtan` movements were instrumental in breaking the thin fabric of Unity ... so let us now examine Gandhi`s role in that

Gandhiji, :`Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity`

(Young India January 6th 1927)

Gandhi`s famous comments about the role of Religion in Politics:

`Politics divorced from Religion is like a corpse only fit to be buried` Bandopadhya `Social and Political Thought of Gandhi, Calcutta, Allied Publishers



Conclusion: Gandhi was the Devil.

(I am just playing the bad cop)

MaheshG,

Once again, you have exposed the bigoted Mindset and mentality that plagues you. even the most rabid Jinnah haterz have come to accept that Jinnah was self less and incorruptible... yet you, a Hindu Bigot with little knowledge and even little sense persists with his nonsense. I can make similar statements about Gandhi... but then there will no difference between the follower of Jinnah (ie Brave, just and incorruptible) and the so called follower of Gandhi.

``Jinnah cared two hoots for minority rights. All he wanted was power and he didn`t care who he sacrificed to achieve that. He was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, Muslims and Hindus alike.``

No honest historian, and no contemporary of Jinnah accused him of that. You were `not even a gleam in your mother`s eye when Jinnah was around` who do you think you are? Do you really think your verdict counts? Jinnah`s name has become synonymous with incorruptiblility. Does it bite you so much? Even the book that Indians love to quote so much `fREEDOM AT midnight` calls Jinnah that. Next time before you make such a stupid and absolutely wrong statement try reading the facts...

As for Hindus and Muslims massacred... You are welcomed to check the figures from any source. Many more Muslims died than Hindus. It is a Historic fact. Pick up `Freedom at Midnight` by LA Pierre and Collins, the Favorite authors of India..



TRIBUTES TO QUAID E AZAM MUHAMMAD ALI JINNAH THE REAL TRUE HERO:

Jinnah unlike others needs no endorsements but here are some anyway:



HARRY S TRUMAN US President

``[He was] the originator of the dream that became Pakistan, architect of the State and father of the world`s largest Muslim nation. Mr. Jinnah was the recipient of a devotion and loyalty seldom accord to any man.``



NELSON MANDELLA Ex-South African President

`Ali Jinnah is a constant source of inspiration for all those who are fighting against racial or group discrimination.` (Nelson Mandela had come to Islamabad in 1995 and had insisted on including Karachi as a destination to visit Jinnah`s Grave and his house in Karachi where upon reaching he drove straight to the Quaid`s Mazar) At another occasion while addressing the ANC Mandela mentioned three names Ali Jinnah, Gandhi and Nehru as sources of inspiration for the movement against apartheid.





BILL CLINTON

(I am) A committed friend who will stand with the people of Pakistan as long as you seek the stable, prosperous, democratic nation of your founder`s dreams. More than half a century ago, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, shared that vision as he addressed Pakistan`s constituent assembly. ``If you work together``, he said, ``in a spirit that everyone of you is first, second and last a citizen with equal rights, privileges, and obligations, there will be no end to the progress you will make.`` Pakistan can have a future worthy of the dreams of the Quaid-e-Azam. If you choose that future, the United States will walk with you. I hope you will make that choice. And I pray for our continued friendship, for peace, for Pakistan. Pakistan Zindabad.





SAROJINI NAIDU

a sincerity of purpose and the lasting charm of a character animated by a brave conception of duty and an austere and lovely code of private honour and public integrity... Tall and stately, but thin to the point of emaciation, languid and luxurious of habit, Mohammad Ali Jinnah`s attenuated form is a deceptive sheath of a spirit of exceptional vitality and endurance. Somewhat formal and fastidious, and a little aloof and imperious of manner, the calm hauteur of his accustomed reserve but masks, for those who know him, a naive and eager humanity, an intuition quick and tender as a woman`s, a humour gay and winning as a child`s. Pre-eminently rational and practical, discreet and dispassionate in his estimate and acceptance of life, the obvious sanity and serenity of his worldly wisdom effectually disguise a shy and splendid idealism which is of the very essence of the man. (Sarojini Naidu, Advocate of Hindu Muslim Unity)



GANDHI

`Jinnah is Incorruptible and Brave` (Interview with gandhi Louis Fischer)





NEHRU

The old Advocate of Unity, Mr. M.A.Jinnah, ... was advanced than his colleagues, and stood head and shoulders above them. (Paraphrased: Quoted from his book freedom at midnight)





SARAR CHANDRA BOSE

``Mr. Jinnah`` he said on his death on 1948, ``was great as a lawyer, once great as a Congressman, great as a Leader of Muslims, great as a world politician and diplomat, and greatest as of all as a man of action. By Mr. Jinnah`s passing away, the world has lost one of the greatest statesmen and Pakistan its life-giver, philosopher and guide.``



This one will Bite you particularly hard:

M C RAJAH:

``All religions hold that God sends suitable people into the world to work out his plans from time to time and at critical junctures. I regard Mr Jinnah as the man who has been called upon to correct the wrong ways in which the people of India have been led by the leadership of Mr Gandhi. Congress took a wrong turn when it adopted wholesale the non cooperation programme of Mr Gandhi and assumed an attitude of open hostility towards Britain and tried to infusew the minds of people a spirit of defiance of law and civil disobedience more of less thinly veiled under a formula of truth and non violence. Moreover by Mahatmafying Mr Gandhi it appealed to the idolatorous sperstition of the Hindus, thus converting the religious adherence of the Hindu section of the population to the Mahatma into political support of his non cooperation movement.While this strategy was of some avail in hustling the British Government to yield more and more it divided the people into Hindu and non hind! u sectionsIn these circumstances a man was needed to stand up to congress and tell its leaders that their organization however powerful numerically and financially doesnot represent the whole of India. I admire Mr Jinnah and feel grateful to him because in advocating the cause of the Muslims he is championing the cause of all the classes that are in danger of bein crushed under the steam roller of the caste Hindu majority, acting under the inspiration and orders of Mr Gandhi `` (25th December 1940, 9 months After the Pakistan Resolution, Seen here are Scheduled castes of India)

But I suppose Mahesh G knows better than all of these people.