Is Thackeray a Terrorist?

re: ylh

so you don`t care what indians think, but yet you continue to use up tons of space here to prove who knows what about jinnah to indians? or is it pakstanis you are trying convince?

re: ylh

{{ I have no objections to anyone challenging my arguments... but you are not here for that. The constant barrage of abuse you send around, and the statements that you make without any sources, or facts to back it up with ... shows your nonseriousness... and you are the one who has repeatedly admitted that you are here to make incendiary statements and not to engage in an academic or people to people dialogue. }}

What`s it to you whether I am serious or not? Mind your business.

{{By the way, why is your vocab limited to `candyass`... Let me make something clear to you. This is a Pakistani site, and I have every right to be here... }}

a candyass has to be called a candyass...using another word would be inaccurate, and an injustice to this fine word: `candyass`...it`s not an issue of vocabulary junior..and by all means stay here...unlike you i don`t go around telling people what they can and cannot comment

{{And that `Saddam Hussain complex` of yours is getting worse... believe me the day you can even come close to challenging the veracity of my arguments is many millenia away. As is obvious not even your `uncles` who were educated in `Nehru`s time` are on the level of arguing on facts... instead they argue on lies.}}

more delusion from you...you create your own silly `debates` based on your own fourth dimension logic, declare yourself winner, and run off into the sunset in your chaddi with a cookie in your hand...whatever rocks your boat man...

tahmed #429 . . . good morning sirji . . .

a) You compared Pakistan with Bihar, not me. If I as an Indian had compared Pakistan with Bihar great skies would have fallen on me. If you as a Pakistani choose to compare Pakistan with Bihar (apt, no doubt, but never mind, never mind, even in Bihar they have one good expressway from Hajipur to Patna so good comparision I think . . .) then it is OK.

b) I am not crowing, tongue in cheek or otherwise. Promise. Jhoot bole, kavaa qaate and take my tongue away.

c) Vaise, truly, when discussing migration from one cesspool to the other, one is the trans-migration of ``illegals`` left behinds from Bangladesh to Pakistan. The other is the official seeking of refuge/asylum of established Pakistani citizens into India which now stands at 9000. Add to that the documented status of Kashmiris from POK/Azad Kashmir who have petitioned to the Indian Govt. to be allowed to use an old clause in the J&K Government`s Acts permitting just that, to be allowed to return to ``Indian`` Kashmir. These facts may not be palateable to Pakistanis and/or some others, but they are true.

Whatever . . .

Ref ylh #: 437

[Zillions of words... No logic, no argument and no discernible facts. Whats the use? You have hoarded up s much space and haven`t gotten your point across ... Shame on Harimau.. Shame on you.]

Who posted a zillion posts, you or me? I have quoted two full continuous pages in my post #436 from Hodson backing up what I said about Jinnah, his reasons foe selecting Mr. Mandal for a cabinet position and Hodson`s opinion of Jinnah and his motives all of which dovetail with my earlier posts. Prove to me I selectively quoted to make a point or made up ``facts``. I am giving the opinion of the former Constitutional Advisor to the Government of India on the shameful ``lawyerly`` behavior of Jinnah, of winning at any cost including that of a million lives. You know what they think of lawyers.... scum of the world. No wonder Jinnah was a brilliant lawyer!

harimau #442
``As far the CPI`s statement that India needs latrines more than temples and mosques, let us just convert Jumma Masjid in Delhi into a public convenience facility.``

Harimau, to avoid being labelled a two-faced hypocrite, kindly try this out in your own neighbourhood and inform us of your success before recommending it to us.

Ref tvarad #: 418

[I think the Babri Masjid should be rebuilt. But it should be converted to a Museum which houses the entire history of the structure and it`s surroundings right upto the present time. It should be researched by academics of international renown (not the Tejo Mahal kind of nuts) and be available for ALL Indians to visit and study. There is also precedence for this in the Sofia Mosque in Istanbul which was built around the same time and is now a Museum]

Well, let us get some historical accuracy here. The reality is that the ``Sofia Mosque`` as you called it was the St. Sophia`s Church built by Emperor Constantine. It was converted into a mosque by the Sultans and remained so for centuries. It was turned into a museum comparatively late in its life. So let us not assume that the Muslims were all for the preservation of other people`s religious buildings.

Maharaja Ranjit Singh was right in converting Lahore`s mosque to a stable for his horses. Pay them back in their own coin!

As far the CPI`s statement that India needs latrines more than temples and mosques, let us just convert Jumma Masjid in Delhi into a public convenience facility.

Ref sigalph235 #: 426

[While it was hardly a sign of pluralism, Mr Jinnah`s dismissal of the Frontier ministry was no more unconstitutional than Mrs Gandhi`s doing the same half a dozen times in the `70s. As in Indian Constitution, the provision is contained in Schedule II of the Govt of India Act 1935 as read with the Indian Independence Act of 1947. Outrageous and intolerant, yes; unconstituional, no.]

One of the first marks of a democracy is tolerance of the Opposition. Jinnah set the tone of intolerance on Day One by dismissing the NWFP government. Yasser`s claim that if Jinnah had lived longer he would have set Pakistan firmly on the course of democracy is just plain BS. Jinnah would have ensured only one-party rule and one-man cult. Not that Pakistan has veered very far from Jinnah`s actions.

Compare that to the Government of India. Did it ban the Muslim League? In fact, they banned the RSS for Mahatma Gandhi`s death. By all logic, the Muslim League should have been banned for causing a million times as many deaths as the RSS did in killing Gandhi.

Indira Gandhi could only dismiss weak state governments. And that too because of her brute majority in the Parliament. The entire Indira Gandhi interregnum in India is a shameful affair. My first comment when I heard that IG was assassinated was that the Sardarjis have done another stupid thing; they should have gotten rid of Rajiv Gandhi. Fortunately, the LTTE got rid of him so that we don`t have dynastic succession in India, at least not for a while.

Ref ylh #: 433

[As is obvious not even your `uncles` who were educated in `Nehru`s time` are on the level of arguing on facts... instead they argue on lies.]

I dared you to quote one lie from me. I have posted from Hodson`s book to show what Jinnah`s aims were. Don`t go around quoting Ayesha Jalal who is trying to whitewash Jinnah. Don`t quote Bulbul-i-Hind who was attracted to Jinnah. Don`t give me some conciliatory statements made earlier in time by Gandhi. I posted two pages out of Hodson so that you cannot claim I quoted selectively.

You just cannot accept the fact Jinnah was a magalomaniac who caused the deaths of millions of people in 1947 and his legacy caused more deaths in 1971. But the truth is out there for all to see.

PS. It only is a 10-mile drive for me to go to the library and get more quotations from Hodson. Plus, the library has got plenty of books on India including annual India Government reports back to London. If you so much as squeak, I shall dump statistics and facts on you that you won`t be able to refute.

PS The Congress Coalition (which included Khudai Khidmatgars) got more seats than AIML but AIML was the single largest party.

In any event, when the ministry was dismissed the position was that a lot of those `Muslim` members had moved over to the league side... and The provincial ministry of Dr.Khan Sahib had lost its mandate. His refusal to call for a new inter parliamentary vote and his seccessionist activities at the inception of Pakistan, when Plebiscite had clearly indicated that NWFP wanted to part of Pakistan, let to the dismissal of his ministry under the Government of India act 1935.

To others...

I have created a `Jinnah` resource. As you can see I have tried to very balanced. Kindly don`t send a volley of hate mail to me... Nothing in the site is anti-India or Anti-Gandhi..

http://www.majinnah.cjb.net

Sincerely

YLH

PS The Congress Coalition (which included Khudai Khidmatgars) got more seats than AIML but AIML was the single largest party.

In any event, when the ministry was dismissed the position was that a lot of those `Muslim` members had moved over to the league side... and The provincial ministry of Dr.Khan Sahib had lost its mandate. His refusal to call for a new inter parliamentary vote and his seccessionist activities at the inception of Pakistan, when Plebiscite had clearly indicated that NWFP wanted to part of Pakistan, let to the dismissal of his ministry under the Government of India act 1935.

To others...

I have created a `Jinnah` resource. As you can see I have tried to very balanced. Kindly don`t send a volley of hate mail to me... Nothing in the site is anti-India or Anti-Gandhi..

http://www.majinnah.cjb.net

Sincerely

YLH

Harimau (obsessed with YLH, an uncle educated in nehru`s time:)

Zillions of words... No logic, no argument and no discernible facts. Whats the use? You have hoarded up s much space and haven`t gotten your point across ... Shame on Harimau.. Shame on you.

The Government in NWFP was Congress Coalition led by Dr.Khan Sahib, brother of A G Khan, who after losing his mandate refused to vacate the seat. The same Dr.Khan Sahib became the Governor of West Pakistan after one unit scheme was announced.

So your point is? Was what Jinnah did unconstitutional... everyone can see it was constitutional. By the way... how does it feel to beaten by a person less than half your age? You didn`t say.

Ref ylh #: 403

[Does it not shame a middle aged fella like yourself to constantly beaten in debate by a 21 year old fresh outta college person? Do you like being beaten by a person less than half your age?]

The nice thing about being older is one has staying power. On the other hand, you just are congratulating yourself prematurely.

Since I didn`t have my books handy, I managed to wait till after sunrise so I can go to a major University library and get out your bible, HV Hodson`s ``The Great Divide``. Let me just tell you, you pathetic pea-brained Pakistani, that I am going to rip you to shreds. The fact is that you had verbal diarrhea of some 25 posts to obfuscate the truth. Well, I am going to quote chapter and verse from Hodson now. This is from the 1997 edition of the book, so don`t come back and tell the world you didn`t find the information I post on the same pages in your earlier edition so I must be making it up.

Heeeeere is from Hodson:

``The basic issue was Hindu-Muslim parity in the new Government, a matter complex enough in itself, when minorities such as Sikhs (who could be counted upon at least to be vehemently anti-Muslim) and Scheduled Castes (who might or might not be counted in the Hindu quota) had also to be considered, but rendered far more difficult by entanglement with the far from identical issue of Congress-League parity and by Mr. Jinnah`s refusal to accept non-League Muslims in any guise.`` (Page 154)

I want you to remember the key words ``Jinnah`s refusal to accept non-League Muslims in any guise.`` Remember what I posted: Jinnah said he would be the sole spokesman of Indian Muslims and Congress had no right to appoint any Muslim to the Cabinet positions under its quota. Tell me, you pathetic not-yet-potty-trained idiot, what fact did I make up?

Now, let us get to Jinnah`s willingness to join the interim Government. Again, from Hodson:

``On 13th October, he (Jinnah) wrote to the Viceroy in the following terms:

[The Working Committee of the All-India Muslim League..... do not approve of the basis and scheme of setting up the interim Government, which has been decided by you, presumably with the authority of His Majesty`s Government.

Therefore, the Committee do not and cannot agree with your decision already taken, nor with the arrangements you have already made.

We consider and maintain that the imposition of this decision is contrary to the Declaration of August 8, 1940, but since, according to your decision, we have a right to nominate five members of the Executive Council on behalf of the Muslim League, my Committee have, for various reasons, come to the conclusion that in the interests of Mussulmans and other communities it will be fatal to leave the entire field of administration of the central Government in the hands of the Congress. Besides, you may be forced to have in your interim Government Muslims who do not command the respect and confidence of Muslim India, which would lead to very serious consequences; and lastly, for other very weighty grounds and reasons which are obvious and need not be mentioned, we have decided to nominate five on behalf of the Muslim League in terms of your broadcast dated August 24, 1946, and your two letters to me dated 4 October 1946, and 12 October 1946, respectively, embodying clarifications and assurances.]

This unpromising missive had at least the virtue of telling truthfully why the League was joining the Government. Its motives, unless subsumed under the unspecified `other very weighty grounds and reasons which are obvious`, were neither to avert a communal war in India nor to prepare the way for reconciliation in a Constituent Assembly, nor even to discharge a duty to share in the good governance of the country, but to avoid leaving the Congress with a monopoly of central executive power or giving an opportunity for non-League Muslims to appear as national figures and powerful Ministers. Once again, Mr. Jinnah had shown that his perennial tactics have two faces: the obverse, refusal of any compromise or commitment while negotiations were proceeding and while the opposition could be counted upon, out of frustration if for no other reason, to make concessions or commit mistakes; the reverse, to accept less than the whole loaf, though without remitting any jot of claim, when negotiations could achieve no more and the alternative would be to leave the opposition in a situation of long-term advantage.

On 13th October it was announced that the Muslim League had decided to join the interim Government,....., and that Messrs. Liaquat Ali Khan, I. I. Chundrigar, Abdul Rab Nishtar, Ghazanfar Ali Khan and Jogendra Nath Mandal would join the Government. The last of these five League nominees was not a MUslim but a Scheduled Caste man, and his nomination could only be taken as a deliberate riposte to the Congress retention of a Nationalist Muslim.`` (Pages 171-172)

Let us take salient phrases out of this passage from Hodson. Jinnah did not want the Muslim League to join the Cabinet ``to prepare the way for reconciliation in a Constituent Assembly``. He had no intention whatsoever of accepting a United India. Nor did he join the Cabinet ``to avert a communal war in India``. Nor was his intention ``to discharge a duty to share in the good governance of the country``. But, here is the crucial stuff that you want to obfuscate with your verbal diarrhea: Jinnah wanted to ``avoid leaving the Congress with a monopoly of central executive power or giving an opportunity for non-League Muslims to appear as national figures and powerful Ministers.`` The only good Muslim, according to Jinnah, is a member of the Muslim League; everybody else, though they had a far bigger constituency than Jinnah ever did, was a traitor. Let me point out here that in Punjab the Muslim League did NOT secure a majority and a Punjab Unionist Party-Congress coalition took power. Let me also remind you that in NWFP, the Congress got more Muslim seats in the legislature than the Muslim League. These are incontrovertible facts. Jinnah represented nobody but himself and a bunch of nawab-wannabe`s with no following from UP.

Let us take Hodson`s verdict on Jinnah`s tactics:

``Jinnah had shown that his perennial tactics have two faces``.

You pathetic idiot. You think you can cover up historical facts by posting 25 posts in a row and drowning out the truth. You cannot because I will not let you.

Now, for the coup de grace. Hodson has this to say in a footnote on Page 172 about Jogendra Nath Mandal: ``He held the Law Portfolio, though he knew nothing about law. `What a fall from Macaulay,` exclaimed Sir George Spence, the Secretary of the Department.``

You know, we also have in India, under the current affirmative action programs, people like Jogendra Nath Mandal. In fact, if India had not been partitioned, I am sure there would have been a very large quota set aside for low-IQ Pakistanis. I am deliberately not saying `Muslims` but `Pakistanis` because Nationalist Indian Muslims are not low IQ people like you.

Don`t flaunt your pseudo-Ivy League pretensions here. The only one to come to your support is Ayesha Fayyaz Sarwari who of course has the distinction of attending Spouse State University in San Jose (so called because of the fact that the spouse of every Indian code coolie gets an MS from that place).

Finally, regarding your proclamation of victory over me: premature ejaculation is not something to be proud of.

Ref dost-mittar #: 405

[Slight correction..the government dismissed by Jinnah was headed not by A.G.Khan but by his brother, Dr. Khan Saheb.]

I stand corrected. My books are packed away as a result of a move and I couldn`t get to them to get the last little detail right.

[Also, I believe that the name of A.G.Khan`s party in NWFP was not Indian National Congress but Khudai Khidmatgar (or Lal Kurti).]

Since my books are packed away, I managed to go to the University Library and got Yasser Latif Hamdani`s Bible aka HV Hodon`s book ``The Great Divide``.

On Page 277, Hodson says,``A Congress Ministry was formed.....`` in NWFP. The Congress got more Muslim seats than Jinnah`s Muslim League in the elections and Dr. Khan formed the government. So while Abdul Ghaffar Khan`s volunteer organization was called the Khudai Khidmatgars, the fact is that the 1946 government in NWFP WAS a Congress government.

RE: Reply #: 432 ylh

``Let me make it clear.. we are proud of Pakistan... we are proud that we are not subservient to anyone... ``

All it took was one phone call from Colin Powell post Sept 11 and Musharaff was bending over to do the U.S. bidding. Today, Pakistanis planes have been forced off their own airbases by the U.S. and are using local roads as runways. You call that not being subservient to anyone?

veeresh #423 I think sir that you WERE crowing, whether tongue in cheek or not is not important. And I said something very simple - I just stated the facts of migration patterns between India and Pakistan as I understand it, and you make it into a complex story about (a) what you think Pakistanis think of themselves wrt Bihar (b) international politics concerning joining of Pakistan with India. All tongue in cheek of course, just as I am writing this post.

Rsaxena,

``umm, this is a public message board...if you don`t like your nonsense being exposed, turn your candyass around and leave...``

I have no objections to anyone challenging my arguments... but you are not here for that. The constant barrage of abuse you send around, and the statements that you make without any sources, or facts to back it up with ... shows your nonseriousness... and you are the one who has repeatedly admitted that you are here to make incendiary statements and not to engage in an academic or people to people dialogue.

By the way, why is your vocab limited to `candyass`... Let me make something clear to you. This is a Pakistani site, and I have every right to be here... and all Indians who wish dialogue or academic debate are welcome on this site but bigots on both sides... your brothers from another mother, the Madrassah Graduates and you who wish to wreck everything and make everything into a Pakistan India match are unwelcome.

And that `Saddam Hussain complex` of yours is getting worse... believe me the day you can even come close to challenging the veracity of my arguments is many millenia away. As is obvious not even your `uncles` who were educated in `Nehru`s time` are on the level of arguing on facts... instead they argue on lies.

-Sincerely

YLH

PS: You, sir, should give up the notion that you are God`s gift to mankind.