Is Thackeray a Terrorist?

Spring Is Key in South Asia Standoff

Mon Feb 11, 3:20 AM ET

By BETH DUFF-BROWN, Associated Press Writer

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020211/ap_on_re_as/south_asia_standoff_1

NEW DELHI, India (AP) - It could be the springtime thaw in the Himalayas before India and Pakistan warm up to pulling back from their military standoff.

That`s the season when Islamic militants traditionally cross into India`s portion of Kashmir (news - web sites) to help a Muslim insurgency, and the Indian government is waiting to see if Pakistan lives up to its pledge to curb extremist groups.

Until then, nearly a million soldiers likely will remain facing each other across the 1,800-mile frontier, keeping worries high about the possibility of a fourth war between the South Asian neighbors, both of which now have nuclear weapons.

The standoff has complicated the U.S. campaign against terrorist groups in this region. Pakistan, whose president is to meet with President Bush (news - web sites) this week, has been a key U.S. ally in the Afghan war, and Washington has been working to improve relations with India.

The crisis began after gunmen staged a suicide assault on India`s parliament complex Dec. 13. India`s government blamed the attack on Islamic extremist groups based in Pakistan, and both sides began reinforcing military forces on the border.

In an effort to ease tensions, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf promised to keep militants from crossing the frontier to launch attacks in the part of Kashmir controlled by India. India says it won`t pull back until it sees proof Pakistan is living up to that vow.

``The only real test of whether the infiltration is going to increase, decrease or remain the same is going to come in April or May, once the snows melt and the passes open up,`` said Rahul Bedi, a New Delhi-based defense analyst who writes for Jane`s Defense Weekly.

Robert Blackwill, the U.S. ambassador to India, said last week that the border crisis has eased since Musharraf`s Jan. 12 speech announcing a crackdown on Islamic militants and promising terrorism in the cause of Kashmir would not be tolerated.

``But the crisis has definitely not gone away,`` Blackwill added. ``It is quite dangerous that both countries have their forces on highest alert. A spark can set off an unintended conflict.``

The leaders of both counties continue to fan the flames with harsh rhetoric over Kashmir, a predominantly Muslim region that India and Pakistan have fought over twice since independence from Britain in 1947.

In a speech last Tuesday to mark Kashmir Solidarity Day in Pakistan, Musharraf accused India of murder, torture and gang rape. Kashmiris on India`s side of the frontier have had ``humiliation of the worst kind heaped upon them through the instrument of state terrorism,`` he said.

He added that Pakistan would continue to extend ``diplomatic, political and moral support to the Kashmiri people in their just struggle`` to break away from India, where Hindus predominate.

Indian Prime Minister Atal Vihari Vajpayee scoffed in response and reiterated India`s charge that Pakistan`s government is sponsoring a proxy war to bring all of Kashmir under Pakistani control.

``They can go on celebrating Kashmir Day for as long as they wish and to their heart`s content,`` Vajpayee thundered at a political rally Wednesday. ``But they can be certain about one thing, which is they will never, ever be able to get Kashmir.``

The Indian government puts the death toll for the 12-year-old rebellion at 32,000 civilians, militants and Indian soldiers. Musharraf estimated Tuesday that at least 70,000 lives had been lost.

Indians worry that Pakistan is getting the best of the international public relations war.

``The major powers, particularly the U.S., do not want these crazy Indians and Pakistanis to get into a nuclear conflict,`` said J.N. Dixit, a former Indian foreign secretary and ambassador to Pakistan. ``Musharraf has made all the right noises and the world goes by noises, and not by facts.``

Riffat Hussain, chairman of defense and strategic studies at Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad, Pakistan`s capital, said it is up to India to end the crisis.

``They are the ones who have initiated tensions by massing the troops. And they are the ones who have to determine whether they want to defuse the tension or reciprocate the steps taken by President Musharraf to defuse the tensions,`` Hussain said. ``The ball is in the Indian court.``

Bedi, the Jane`s analyst, said India had ``become a victim of its own rhetoric.``

``Having deployed their troops into a high state of alert, they don`t have a means to pull back without achieving something,`` he said.

MaheshG

Your questions have been answered by Dost Mittar, a countrymen of yours who is fairly objective and unbiased in his assessment.

By Mr. Mahesh G`s warped logic, Gandhi wasn`t much of a hero either.

Reply Yasser #522

Mian, who is trying to provoke you? Parsis came up, I found a few websites I thought were interesting - unfortunately they focused on Bombay rather than talking about other centres - I ended my post saying ``live and learn``. Which is a good thing to do, no? Please believe me - no offence intended to you, to Pakistan or to Jinnah. In case I have inadvertently offended, please accept my unconditional apology.

Reply Rdesikan #525

Don`t know about Pearl Padumsee (btw do you remember her role in Junoon...priceless line about kaghaz ke saatha apne aap ko ponchthe hain...) but the Padumsee she married was/is a Khoja, not a Parsi.

dost-mittar # 531

``In the united Panjab, Muslims hardly ever figured in the list of the first ten in the Panjab University Matric examination; the number of muslims in colleges and professions was far below their proportion in the population; I do not see how that would have substantially changed if we (I was one of them) had not been kicked out of there.``

Dost-mittar, while I do not wish to contradict what you speak from personal experience, I can name one stunning counterexample: Nobel-prize winning physicist Abdus Salam, who had the foundations of his education laid in pre-partition Panjab (uptil an MA in 1946), apparently scored the highest marks ever recorded to the time for the matriculation examination at Panjab University.

``Also, when I see the Pakistani diplomats and representatives on TV, they do at least as good a job, if not better, as their Indian counterparts, while during pre-partition days, most of the articulate Indians were Hindus.``

Here is another counterexample - Sir Zafarullah Khan, again born and educated in united Panjab, who was Pakistan`s first Foreign Minister and a fearsomely articulate diplomat.

Curiously enough, both of these gentlemen were Ahmadiyya Muslims.

Why don`t you counter my arguments first? Then you can call me all kinds of names.

1) What rights that Jinnah was fighting for have been denied to minorities in post independent India?

2) Why are minorities in the so called secular vision of secular Jinnah suffering to the point of non-existence?

Yaar, if yu are making a list of awesome Parsi`s please put Meher Poonawala`s Mom on there, she made the most awesome Patra-nu-macchi :-)

Further on Mahesh G,

It doesn`t make you a bigot to not appreciate Jinnah. What does make you a bigot is calling him the `devil` in classic Ossama Bin Laden style exactly how he calls US the devil, putting up no plausible arguments, denigrating a respected father figure of another people, calling him an idiot, and accusing him of the crimes that your ancestors committed.

That is what makes you a Bigot.

MaheshG

You have no argument ... all your arguments come to naught. The bottom line is that you are a bigot first second and last.

Dost-mittar, please convince me why Jinnah is a Hero to Pakistanis.

Would you make the following statement as well, ``one man`s terrorist is another man`s freedom fighter?``

Since, Paksitanis consider most of the terrorists in Kashmir freedom fighters would you also dismiss this discussion as a difference of perceptions?

-----

YLH, now you are giving me gaaliyan. Where is AnNy behan when you need her? AnNy behan, aap yahan zar tashreef layengi?

Now I am a bigot? Why? Can you define to me what makes somebody a bigot? Does not appreciating Jinnah make me a bigot?

Please let me know. I don`t want to be known as a bigot. I will also appreciating Hitler to get this tag of bigotry removed from my name.

Re vineet 520

Sime big mistakes and gaping holes in your list: Pearl Padamsee`s ex was a parsi, but she is jewish herself. David Davidar is a Tamilian christian -- read his new books for distinct clues. I thought that Vijay Merchant was a hindu and Farukh Engineer a bohra--but I could be wrong.

I see some big names missing: Field Marshall Maneckshaw. The former solicitor general Soli Sorabjee. And what about the late politician Piloo Mody? And what of the Bombay Dyeing Wadia family whose current scion though not a parsi is the grandson of jinnah.

vineet #520
Penaz Masani singer?
Soli Sorabjee Solicitor General?
Nani Palkiwala lawyer, diplomat,economist ?

tvarad,

By your invincible Argument, the current greatest man on Earth is Michael Jackson in close competition with Ossama Bin Laden. There is a reason why Michael Jackson is infinitely more well known than say Pearl Jam or say U2 for example world over. There is a reason why more people know of Michael Jackson all over the world than they know Jim Morrison and the Doors, and it ain`t because Michael Jackson is more talented. You Indians are incredible. Your arguments are incredible.. your logic is incedible. I bow to thy greatness oh great maharaj.

No seriously So what if Gandhi is famous world over? what should I do? When did I put them in competition? I can care less what Gandhi is or isn`t. A Man`s worth is realized by his people, and Gandhi has been forgotten by India, whereas Pakistan is beginning to revisit Jinnah and his dreams for Pakistan.

We have already visited this question of `fame` in the discussion and we have established fame is not necessarily in correlation with greatness, and anyone who thinks so is stupid. What are you trying to prove anyway? I am not even sure why you would once again point out your Devta`s greatness. I agree that you have managed to throw mud in the world`s eye.

By the way, did Nelson Mandela quote bite you or was it Harry S Truman?



Ladies and Gentlemen,

Tvarad`s response is typically Indian. When an Indian loses an argument he claims : `But more people know of Gandhi, More people know of India, no one knows of Pakistan, no one knows of Jinnah`

You can`t fight on logic.. hence you resort to childish popularity contests.



Even more signs of Indian insecurity:

Mr. Vineet`s post on Indian parsis? Can you please explain why you suddenly decided to enlighten us? Was there a competition going on between Pakistan and India ... was it because I mentioned Cowasjee and Bapsi Sidwah? And you had to show that India, which 10 times bigger than Pakistan has 10 times more famous parsis? What the hell is wrong with you people.

All of you are pakistan obsessed diseased Keeras. If we say Jinnah is a great man, you come up with oh but more people know Gandhi. If we celebrate our great parsis you jump in with 50 irrelevant names.

Grow up Indians ... not everything is about you. Don`t flatter yourselves...



In comes Zafar Al Talib

What the hell are you trying to prove to me. I know Parsis in Lahore and Karachi, and I know that they are a lot... a lot more than 2000 .. God give me a break.

Ironically the only parsi on chowk is a Pakistani... Behram Atashband... Why doesn`t anyone ask Behram Atashband how many parsis there are in Pakistan. All in all, your entire Indian nation needs to seek help... all of you are plagued with some kind of complex which leads you to act in this childish and immature way.

Famous Parsis (zoroastrians) of India

AFS Talyarkhan (Cricket Commentator/Broadcaster)

Vijay Merchant (Cricket)

Persis Khambhatta ( Bollywood actress)

Sabira Merchant (TV Host)

JRD Tata (Industrialist)

Jamshedji Tata (Industrialist)

Soli Sorabjee (Lawyer)

Bhikaji Cama (Freedom Fighter)

Pearl Padamsee (Actress)

Feroze Gandhi (Politician)

Farrukh Dhondy (Writer)

David Davidar (Writer)

Rohinton Mistry (writer)

Zubin Mehta (Music Conductor)

Jamshed Kanga (Politician)

Kaizad Gustad (filmmaker)

Sohrab Mody (Actor)

H.B. Wadia (Film maker)

Farrukh Engineer (Cricket)

Homi Bhabha (Scientist)

Homi Sethna (Scientist)

Russy Mody (Cricket)

Polly Umrigar (Cricket)

Nari Contractor (Cricket)

Sooni Taraporevala

Freddy Mercury (Music)

Dadabhai Naoroji (Freedom Fighter)

Mancherjee Bhownagree

Jehangir Sabavala (Painter)

Meher Mistry (Model)

Firdaus Kanga (Writer)

Shehnaz Patel (Actress)

Perizaad Zorabian (Model and Actress)

Sir Phirojshah Mehta

Sir Dinshaw Wacha

Dinshah Irani (Solicitor)

Shiamik Davar (Choreographer) ......

and many many more. Their contribution to India is immense. Such a tiny community but have contributed so much. Same with Indian Jews.

RE: Reply #: 515 ylh

``When I was giving you arguments your countrymen were busy putting up statements of Einstein on Gandhi, now when I do it, it is a crime.``

Not to get into a p * * *ing contest with you on this subject, but there is a reason why there are statues of Gandhi and not Jinnah all over the world and there is a reason why the civil rights movement in the U.S. was patterned after Gandhi`s non-violence movement and not Jinnah`s struggle for ``Muslim rights`` or whatever flavor of the moment struggle you make it out to be.

As for the rest of your spirited defense of what Jinnah wanted for Muslims and minorities, as they say, talk is cheap. I can tell you that Pakistan is the paragon of democracy and emancipation but does that make it true? Show me where the money is.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0205/p09s01-coop.html

A chameleon ally in Pakistan

By Benazir Bhutto

The Sept. 11 assault upon America changed the contours of the world. It also gave Pakistani military dictator Pervez Musharraf an avenue to respectability.

The Pakistani general, who seized power in a coup d`état in 1999, was a principal architect of policies that empowered Osama bin Ladin and strengthened the Taliban regime harboring Al Qaeda. General Musharraf failed to close the militant Islamic schools in Pakistan that filled youngsters with hatred toward the West and were the prime recruiting grounds for Mr. bin Ladin`s war on civilization.



Twice during Musharraf`s tenure as Army chief, a position he still holds, two confrontations have taken place with India that have brought South Asia to the brink of nuclear Armageddon. By marginalizing democratic forces, Musharraf has permitted a political vacuum for the religious parties to fill.

Musharraf has a record of disingenuous manipulation of world public opinion at the expense of basic human and democratic rights. Although he now denounces the contours of a theocratic state in Pakistan, he and his establishment supporters have yet to dismantle the governmental structure on which it rests. Though he now claims containment of terrorists and militants, for years he turned a blind eye to the Islamic groups Lashkar-e-Tayyaba and Jaish-e-Mohammad, which many believe were involved in the Dec. 13 attack on the Indian Parliament.

Musharraf now denounces Pakistan`s ``state within a state`` - the Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI - while he and his military predecessors tasked the ISI to destabilize democratic government in Pakistan and manipulate the electoral process. He denounces the Islamicization of Pakistan, while for years the exploitation of Islam has been the military`s way of stifling the Pakistani people.

In September 2001 he addressed the Pakistani nation to announce that he was joining the ``lesser evil`` (the United States) in the war against terror, suggesting it was necessary to avoid more international support for a greater evil, India. These words were out of touch with the emerging world realities. Both of these ``evil`` forces coalesced to press him to act against the militias and militants that his regime patronized for years.

His administration stood by as Pakistani Taliban supporters printed posters, hired trucks, established camps, and exhorted young Pakistanis to ``join the jihad`` led by Al Qaeda after the war against terror began. Thousands of young Pakistanis crossed over into Afghanistan. Their dead bodies are a monument to the pre-Sept. 11 policies of Pakistan`s dictatorship.

Tragically, there is indifference around the world to the human and political price paid by Pakistanis for the fatally flawed policies of this regime. The West accepts Musharraf for his post-Sept. 11 turnabout on the Taliban and the January 2002 turnabout on terrorism against India. But these strategic somersaults are tarred by unreliability. It is only a matter of time before circumstances change, new opportunistic alliances are created, and Musharraf and his men surely will morph back into their previous incarnation.

Just as we must recall Western miscalculation in abandoning Afghanistan after the Soviet defeat, let us remember the lessons of Iran. The Shah was the West`s surrogate regional policeman for decades. His policies of choking and victimizing democratic forces led to the fundamentalist revolution from which the world has yet to recover.

Musharraf plans to continue his military dictatorship through a manufactured political party in elections next October almost certain to be fraudulent, shutting out from the contest the legitimate political parties and leaders of Pakistan. This will play into the long-term goals of Pakistani Islamic fundamentalism.

Only an internationally monitored, free and fair, party-based election open to all political parties - including the Pakistan People`s Party, which I chair - can create the legitimacy that would derail the fundamentalists` dream of a theocratic state.

The Musharraf military dictatorship, like that of Zia ul Haq`s two decades ago, is an assault on the fundamental human and democratic rights of the Pakistani people. The regime`s confrontation with the values of peace, democracy, human rights, rule of law, and justice erodes civil society.

Unless Musharraf revamps his administration and reaches out to democratic forces in agreeing on the modalities of a fair election and transfer of power, the domestic situation in the country will remain dangerous. In a democratic Pakistan, Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl would not have been kidnapped by a fundamentalist cabal.

Remember that just as democracies do not start wars, democracies do not sustain state-sponsored terrorism. The modus operandi of dictatorship is war, fundamentalism, and terrorism. To contain terror, we must promote democracy.

For the moment, some might find Musharraf`s dictatorship useful. But the United States must proceed with great caution and wisdom. In the words of John F. Kennedy, ``foreign policy requires the long view.`` Ultimately, the West`s blind eye to democracy and human rights can have unintended, unforeseen, and deadly consequences, not just in Pakistan, but for regional and world peace.

• Benazir Bhutto was prime minister of Pakistan from 1988 to 1990 and 1993 to 1996. She is the chairperson of the Pakistan People`s Party, and is based in the United Arab Emirates.