The Future Is Another Country: 2050 And Beyond

Saminashah

Again loaded questions.

The acid on unburqa-ed women was a RAW thing. Every faction in Kashmir including the most hardliner has condemned it. Shamelss hindus do such things to create schisms in the freedom movement and they all backfire. Whether it is the murder of sikhs or hindu kashmiris, hijackiing of their own planes or shooting their own cops everything has become a joke around the world. Hindu has screamed ``Wolf, Wolf`` so much so that no one beleives him anymore. In this movement of freedom the Hindu Kashmiris have decided to side with the oppressors so there is a limit to being all inclusive. The oppressor is ruthless and without shame and shows complete disregard for human life and dignity. So what do you think-if ``either you are with us or aginst us`` is true for gander it must be true for geese. Right? And I should recommend to you to get off this high horse of anti-Islam/religion bigotery. It is utter bigotry to look down upon the people who do not subscribe to your political or antireligion agenda. Bigotry pure and simple-by any human standard and specially according to those political ideals that you preach and want us to beleive that you follow them.

Urstruly,

You may speculate on my moral compass, but if I were to put myself in the shoes of the average Kashmiri, I would ask myself what my options were. Would I want to support an organization that fought for the rights of only a specific population? Would I want to support a group that coerced girls and women into wearing burqas/hijabs for fear of having acid thrown in their faces? (keeping in mind that these minority and local decrees are supposedly made as a ``protest`` against the Indian government.) Would I want to support an organization that proscribes a religious state that only acknowledges the humanity of one group of people, when clearly my country contains many different communities? Would I want to suppport an organization that accepted the armed fundamentalists from the neighboring country, knowing that this country facillated the installation of one of the most archaic and punitive interpretations of a religion in the last thirty years? Would I want to support an organization that advocated violence in service of independence? What kind of leadership would such governments offer me? How can I be sure that these organizations will not subject me, my family, friends, neighbors and community to violent means of resolving later issues?

Or would I want an organization that was a model of bottom-top leadership, in which people have organized along peaceful, multi-religious, gender neutral, democratic lines for several years, and were advocated more stable relations among India and Pakistan, and South Asia? Would I favor organizations that democratically and consensually resisted the manipulations and human rights abuses of India and Pakistan?

If the majority of Kashmiris decided that they wanted to be independent of India and Pakistan, would you be able to accept that reality?

Re: Tahmed321

``...On WWII deaths. The ``battlefield dead`` is around 55 million...``

And these are only the dead. There are many more who were injured, and psychologically scarred. Not to mention the seeds of another conflict that were sowed in the Middle East when Israel came into being. Had Europe treated its Jews with kindness, perhaps there would have been no migration of European Jews to the Middle East, and no Israeli/Palestinian conflict today.

Re: sadna

``...Re US veto, what do you say of the Agni launch and the large scale mobilization of troops? ...``

I will apply the same standard as I applied earlier in reverse -- will the US seek India`s permission/approval before launching its own missiles or look towards India for permission first to do the same (deploy troops within its borders)? The answer is plain.

``...We are hopefully different people in different times, with the additional benefit of hindsight...``

No we are not. Everyday on Chowk you can read the elites of `our people` hurl insults and sow the seeds of another conflict, and we do not take advantage of hindsight either. We dance to a tune that the West plays. But make no mistake, it is not the West that is responsible for this -- it is us.

Re: Urstruly

``...I dont think that powers-that-be on either side will let Kashmiris decide their own fate for at least 50 more years...``

And they will continue to pay the price -- there is no costless conflict.

http://www0.mercurycenter.com/premium/local/docs/vigil28.htm

Published Monday, Jan. 28, 2002, in the San Jose Mercury News

photographs

Indians, Pakistanis appeal for peace

BY KATHERINE CORCORAN

Mercury News

It may have been only 80 people. But Indian and Pakistani nationals living in the Bay Area who gathered Sunday to call for peace between the two countries say they were joining countless others around the world.

They shivered in the clear, brisk evening at Lytton Plaza in downtown Palo Alto to light candles and sing peace songs in Hindi: ``What if you are Indian? What if you are Pakistani? We are still one.``

The vigil carried a unique American flavor, with songs such as ``Amazing Grace`` and ``Lift Every Voice and Sing,`` the black national anthem. According to organizers, vigils also occurred at the same hour local time in Boston, Karachi and eight cities in India, including Delhi, Calcutta and Bhopal.

``I don`t want India and Pakistan to go to war,`` said Aysha Malik, a Pakistani woman, explaining why she traveled from San Jose to join the vigil. ``I don`t want my country to go to war with anybody, actually.``

The two countries have been in conflict over Kashmir, a mountainous region of Muslims and Hindus divided between the two countries more than 50 years ago, after the collapse of the British Empire. Both countries lay claim to Kashmir and have gone to war over the region four times, while many in the Kashmir region want total independence.

Participants were protesting the latest military buildup between India and Pakistan, both of which pose nuclear threats, after a Dec. 13 terrorist attack on the Indian parliament that killed 14 people. India blamed the attack on Pakistani-backed militants who oppose India`s rule of Muslims in the Kashmir region. Since the attack, India has sent hundreds of thousands of soldiers to the Pakistani border.

Organizers of Sunday`s peace vigil said they will continue to gather at 5:30 p.m. local time the last Sunday of every month in cities around the world until the conflict between the two countries is resolved peacefully.

The worldwide vigil was sponsored locally by Friends of South Asia and the Qaumantri Punjabi Bhaichara Group of California, both of which are calling for the reopening of communication, travel and trade between India and Pakistan, as well as an end to the nuclear weapons race.

The idea for the vigil was conceived by four people in India, including a retired admiral who spent his career fighting Pakistan.

``He realized that war is entirely futile,`` said Akhila Raman, an Indian woman representing Friends of South Asia. ``We`ve had four wars, and we still have the status quo. Thousands of people have been killed, and nothing has changed.``

Pakistani organizer Ali Hasan Cemendtaur said people gathering for the vigil may disagree on how the Kashmir situation should be resolved. But they all agree it should be done peacefully.

``People ask what we could achieve with a small vigil,`` he said. ``It`s seemingly insignificant in the sea of hatred and animosity that we see. But by bringing people together here from India and Pakistan, we are turning the tide.``

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20020204&fname=Column+Anita+%28F%29&sid=1

IMPRESSIONS

Bully, Know Thyself

India wants mediation when it suits them. But when it comes to Kashmir, it is an issue the world just cannot touch. Free Speech: tell us what you think



ANITA PRATAP

I am so glad I am not a Pakistani. If I was, my blood pressure would be shooting higher than the Hatf missiles. I would be a nervous wreck of frustration, fear and resentment. Forget you are an Indian for a moment and just see the play of recent events from the eyes of ordinary Pakistani citizens—not the Pakistani establishment—and you will see what I mean.

Let`s take Kashmir. Isn`t it common sense that what has remained unsolvable bilaterally for 50 years requires a third party mediator? It`s a matter of India`s pride to keep mediators out, but pride doesn`t stand in the way when they rush to the Americans for help. After all, it was President Clinton who forced the Pakistani troops to retreat from Kargil. And look at the way Indian home and defence ministers rush for talks to Washington. Indians want third party mediation when it suits them, which is to end cross-border terrorism—meaning pressure Pakistan—but don`t want it when it involves sitting down to solve the Kashmir problem: meaning don`t want to be pressured themselves. When it comes to finding a solution, Kashmir suddenly becomes a shuddh Brahmin of an issue that the world cannot touch. It`s an internal matter. End of discussion. Everybody out. Isn`t this double standards? Besides, nobody now talks about the cross-border terrorism that India spawned—training and arming the LTTE and the other Tamil militant groups to operate in Sri Lanka. And America, that mother-nation of double standards, sure plays ball with India. They publicly rule out third party mediation even as they are in the midst of mediating to cool down tensions between the two angry neighbours.

And then there is this fracas over whether Kashmir is the core issue. That seems obvious to everyone in the world, but not to the Indians. Wonder how many Indians know what the Sir Creek dispute is all about. Or, how many other issues there are that send the two countries ballistic at regular intervals. In Pakistan, Colin Powell agrees Kashmir is the ``central`` issue. Then he tight-ropes to New Delhi and toes India`s line to say dialogue should be comprehensive. When Americans tour South Asia, they always go to Pakistan first and then to India, where whatever little they`ve said in Pakistan`s favour is quickly torpedoed. And that being the final comment, rules out a Pakistani comeback. Surely Pakistanis must want the Americans to henceforth reverse the order.

Musharraf made important announcements—banning JeM and LeT, freezing their accounts, arresting leaders. Announcements that even Colin Powell pointedly described as ``actions`` taken by Pakistan. But India announced implacably they`d wait for these announcements to translate into action. Fair enough. But India had also said, for every one step Pakistan takes, India would take two. After all, the first step is an announcement. By their own promise, India should have made two announcements. Instead, India quibbles about the size of the step, that Pakistan should take a long stride while India takes two small steps that may not equal a stride! To ordinary Pakistanis, this only reaffirms the impression that India is a giant trickster.

Adding to all these frustrations is the real fear Pakistanis experience when war clouds gather on the border. After all, India is militarily more powerful. It is much bigger. We take our bigness for granted. It is no big deal. But it matters a great deal to the smaller neighbour. Just seeing India`s size on the map is intimidating. This is the reason why Pakistan is obsessed with India and India obsessed with itself. An India on red alert is a fearsome spectre in the eyes of the Pakistanis.

From prime ministers down, Pakistanis have been critical of the ISI control freaks and their dangerous games. If an ISI link is indeed established, then the Calcutta attack only suggests that the ISI has lost control of the jehadis they trained and armed, exactly the way India lost control of the LTTE.The last thing the ISI would want is a terrorist strike aimed at America when the FBI chief is in India. But the jehadi-underworld axis have their own agenda. India is in a mood to punish Pakistan. What if India retaliates after the next terrorist attack? The ISI, mafia dons and jehadis won`t suffer. Pakistani citizens will. You see why their blood pressure is rising?

As if all this fear and frustration isn`t enough, Pakistanis have to put up with India`s patronising attitude. It`s typical of Indian double standards that they are so hyper-sensitive and take offence at any American patronising, lecturing or interference vis-a-vis them, while being blissfully unaware of their own pomposity and condescension when talking about Pakistan. His baritone voice dripping with sarcasm, Jaswant Singh says: ``It`s not as if they (the 20 wanted terrorists in Pakistan) are hiding in caves. There are, alas, no caves in Karachi to hide.`` Would you blame a Pakistani if he retorted: ``Alas, there are no caves in Delhi for you to chase your temple-constructing sants into.``

What`s perhaps most frustrating for Pakistanis is that somehow India always seems to get its way and have the last word too. So while we are always complaining and nit-picking, we fail to see that our glass is actually half-full. We are not doing too badly. After all, inflation is down to its lowest ever under two per cent and we haven`t been plagued by riots. We have a billion mouths to feed and yet there are visible signs of plenty everywhere. It`s truly awesome that our shops and wayside stalls are bursting with fruits and vegetables. It`s another matter that not many Indians have the purchasing power. But that`s the quintessential Indian paradox: India brings both a tear and a smile—a tear for much that is wrong, a smile for much that is wonderful. The trouble is we assume the grass is always greener on the other side. But right now, when you look at Pakistan from India, the only thing that is greener is their flag.

(The author can be contacted at post@anitapratap.com) From prime ministers down, Pakistanis have been critical of the ISI control freaks and their dangerous games. If an ISI link is indeed established, then the Calcutta attack only suggests that the ISI has lost control of the jehadis they trained and armed, exactly the way India lost control of the LTTE.The last thing the ISI would want is a terrorist strike aimed at America when the FBI chief is in India. But the jehadi-underworld axis have their own agenda. India is in a mood to punish Pakistan. What if India retaliates after the next terrorist attack? The ISI, mafia dons and jehadis won`t suffer. Pakistani citizens will. You see why their blood pressure is rising?

As if all this fear and frustration isn`t enough, Pakistanis have to put up with India`s patronising attitude. It`s typical of Indian double standards that they are so hyper-sensitive and take offence at any American patronising, lecturing or interference vis-a-vis them, while being blissfully unaware of their own pomposity and condescension when talking about Pakistan. His baritone voice dripping with sarcasm, Jaswant Singh says: ``It`s not as if they (the 20 wanted terrorists in Pakistan) are hiding in caves. There are, alas, no caves in Karachi to hide.`` Would you blame a Pakistani if he retorted: ``Alas, there are no caves in Delhi for you to chase your temple-constructing sants into.``

What`s perhaps most frustrating for Pakistanis is that somehow India always seems to get its way and have the last word too. So while we are always complaining and nit-picking, we fail to see that our glass is actually half-full. We are not doing too badly. After all, inflation is down to its lowest ever under two per cent and we haven`t been plagued by riots. We have a billion mouths to feed and yet there are visible signs of plenty everywhere. It`s truly awesome that our shops and wayside stalls are bursting with fruits and vegetables. It`s another matter that not many Indians have the purchasing power. But that`s the quintessential Indian paradox: India brings both a tear and a smile—a tear for much that is wrong, a smile for much that is wonderful. The trouble is we assume the grass is always greener on the other side. But right now, when you look at Pakistan from India, the only thing that is greener is their flag.

(The author can be contacted at post@anitapratap.com)

Shankar---349

[Your posts are suggestive of a sense of moral superiority for your religion & ``noble causes``.]

Seems like bodhee under the chotee(ask a brahmin what that means)is cranking a bit.There is no suggestion it is being drilled with a jackhammer.

And please whisk away those flies from the phrase /noble causes in your statement.

But then,

``why should I think

I`m a shrink

I`m licensed to listen

and silenced to kissin`

& tellin` with a wink

that I charge for this game

without any shame

(to that you can drink)

`Cause I`m a shrink.``

PS:Took me 2/3 minutes to write that.You can use it if you want---it is complimentary,if you really think about it.

REPORT ON US Terrorism.

These are NOT the views of muslims or non-Americans.In case some Bhoora-goraa from Goo-ka-Bora suffering from inglis-syphilis with `edutitude` gets antsy(psycho?) & repeats in delirium ``to go back from where you came from``.

What the shrunk-skulls do not know is that ``the times they are a`changin``` & Islam is gaining ground & will grow even more & more.Just watch & weep.

Or try to be what you really are--take a crash course in hindi/urdu or whatever & stop acting ``phorren``(thank you yours truly)--you might start speaking or writing correct language,any language.Arse wiggling,contorting face & knowing disney-land trivia cannot improve your grammar.

_________________________________________________

1979 — 1992

American Subversion in Afghanistan

Estimated civilian deaths: over 1,000,000 people

From Killing Hope

by William Blum:

Everyone knows of the unbelievable repression of women in Afghanistan, carried out by Islamic fundamentalists, even before the Taliban. But how many people know that during the late 1970s and most of the 1980s, Afghanistan had a government committed to bringing the incredibly backward nation into the 20th century, including giving women equal rights?

What happened, however, is that the United States poured billions of dollars into waging a terrible war against this government, simply because it was supported by the Soviet Union. Prior to this, CIA operations had knowingly increased the probability of a Soviet intervention, which is what occurred. In the end, the United States won, and the women, and the rest of Afghanistan, lost. More than a million dead, three million disabled, five million refugees, in total about half the population.

See also:

Imperial Hypocrisy: American/British state terrorism of the Afghan Peoples, 2001

[Back to list]



1981 — 1990

American Terrorism of the Nicaraguan People

Estimated civilian deaths: over 13,000 people

From Derailing Democracy

by Dave McGowan:

Following the fall of the Somoza regime, which had been backed for decades by the U.S., the CIA formed and armed the covert army known as the ``Contras`` from the remains of Somoza`s National Guard. Assisted by covert U.S. air power, this proxy army inflicted considerable death and destruction across the Nicaraguan countryside.

From Killing Hope

by William Blum:

When the Sandinistas overthrew the Somoza dictatorship in 1978, it was clear to Washington that they might well be that long-dreaded beast — ``another Cuba.`` Under President Carter, attempts to sabotage the revolution took diplomatic and economic forms. Under Reagan, violence was the method of choice. For eight terribly long years, the people of Nicaragua were under attack by Washington`s proxy army, the Contras, formed from Somoza`s vicious National Guard and other supporters of the dictator.

It was all-out war, aiming to destroy the progressive social and economic programs of the government, burning down schools and medical clinics, raping, torturing, mining harbors, bombing and strafing. These were Ronald Reagan`s ``freedom fighters.`` There would be no revolution in Nicaragua.

Extremely Interesting article in the lastest Nwe Yorker called My Holy War; Rebellion and the roots of Jihad by Jonathan Raban.

Reply Sadna # 350

``Re US veto, what do you say of the Agni launch and the large scale mobilization of troops? While I agree that Indians should be alert about not losing sight of their objectives, I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating, namely if we are able to move from a certain point in Indo-Pak relations, to a different and more favorable point in Indo-Pak relations, and do this without war, then making Powell travel down two times is not a bad thing.``

Very true. But who decides what is more favourable, and when Mr Powell needs to pay us a visit? If Pakistan/India decide, that`s fine. But it`s a slippery slope.

Check this out from Last month`s Atlantic by Bernard Lewis http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/01/lewis.htm

What Went Wrong?

By all standards of the modern world—economic development, literacy, scientific achievement—Muslim civilization, once a mighty enterprise, has fallen low. Many in the Middle East blame a variety of outside forces. But underlying much of the Muslim world`s travail may be a simple lack of freedom



Very interesting read. This is a condensed version of the very same that is in his latest book.

Shammi

I think I am beginning to agree with you. But there is a moral solution to the problem which has caused this schism-there always is. I dont think that powers-that-be on either side will let Kashmiris decide their own fate for at least 50 more years.

Samina shah

You ask loaded questions, therefore, you get loaded answers. It is the direction of violence that determines whether a movement is violent or the forces that oppress the movement are. If 80,000 dead Kashmiris and countless raped women and children, destryed and burned property, UN resolutions i.e. world community`s promises and even the oppressor`s promises to the oppressed are not testimonial enough then what is? What is more peaceful than asking for the basic human right of asking for the right of self-determination be given. What is more democratic, more constitutional, more peaceful than that? The bullets in return? The rape as a national policy to suppress dissent? I am seriously begining to suspect that you have absolutely no clue as to what your moral pririties are.

Shankar:

Thanks for free profiling. I dont think that I can be shut up that easy.

Do you know the origin of word ``Thug`` which is now used in English vocabulary as well. I give you a hint: for about 200 years that was the word of choice to describe opponents of the then Empire. Now we name our roads, hospitals, ans svchools after those thugs. Do you know the new choice word for this empire?

tahmed321 #345
``The ``battlefield dead`` is around 55 million.``

Thats a horrendous number. My point is unfortunately the entire spectrum of centuries-old now much-celebrated ``rich`` Western intellectual and political traditions couldnot engineer a EU without 55 million people first dying in a terrible war.

We are hopefully different people in different times, with the additional benefit of hindsight.

Still some ways to go :

FO urges Advani to focus on de-escalation

ISLAMABAD: The Foreign Office spokesman on Friday advised LK Advani ``to deploy his imagination and resources towards de-escalating the current military stand-off engineered by his government`` rather than dreaming about a South Asian confederation.

Regarding a recent statement by Advani questioning the partition of South Asia and visualising a confederation among India, Pakistan and Bangladesh, the spokesman said: ``It is regrettable that the Indian home minister continues to make irresponsible and provocative statements in utter disregard to the undeniable realities and the circumstances that led to the emergence of Pakistan.``

``By giving vent to his jaundiced views, Advani, a life-long advocate of communalism and Hindu fundamentalism, continues to promote his pernicious agenda of `Akhand Bharat`,`` the spokesman said.

``Advani`s statement in question, when seen in the context of the tension created by India, becomes even more sinister and raises serious doubts about India`s real intentions. Rather than dreaming about a South Asian confederation, Advani would be better advised to deploy his imagination and resources towards de-escalating the current military stand-off engineered by his government,`` the spokesman added.

shammi #346, Zafar
``India looks to marshalling global public opinion against Pakistan to restrain Pakistan or to settle its problems with it (and so does the US, admittedly for its problems). In this manner, India has given a de facto veto to the West over its foreign affairs, and internal affairs (to solve the terrorism problem)``

Re US veto, what do you say of the Agni launch and the large scale mobilization of troops? While I agree that Indians should be alert about not losing sight of their objectives, I think the proof of the pudding is in the eating, namely if we are able to move from a certain point in Indo-Pak relations, to a different and more favorable point in Indo-Pak relations, and do this without war, then making Powell travel down two times is not a bad thing.

Politics is the art of the possible and war is the failure of politics. If we have avoided war, by threatening war and using politics, well good(its too soon to tell, btw, I think folks on both sides of the border are waiting for the snow to melt for eg).

Samina,

{{There is a peaceable, multireligious movement in Kashmir that calls for Kashmiri self determination. I suggest you grow up and investigate it.}}

Its a waste of time trying to make Urstruly be balanced in his views. Any movement involving hindus will not be trusted by him. Reading his hatefilled posts leads me to believe that he believes that hindus, by their very nature, are evil & untrustworthy.

__________________________________________________

Urstruly,

Dont waste your time with outraged remarks about ``character assassination`` at what I`m about to say. The only thing more idiotic than a bigot is a sanctimonious bigot. Its an educated guess--you can take it or lump it.

You fit the psychological profile of an Al-Qeeda terrorist, or the very least, part of the Al-Qeeda network.

GWB`s State of the Union speech was very unnerving. After what the CIA discovered in Afghanistan, they are convinced that there still remains a vast Al-Qeeda network in the US.



It isnt the illiterate peasants who join the Al-Qeeda. Starting with OBL, Al-Qeeda is made up of educated muslims,like you, who have a sense of moral outrage & hurt.

They (& you) believe non-muslims--esp (hindus, jews & Govt of US) have plundered, raped & blasphemed the Islamic people & civilisation. THEY are the real terrorrists, the sinners & shameless butchers. To fight them is noble, just & sacred cause. No, you WONT call (your)self terrorists; but jihadis.

OBL is an engineer by education. The whole network is run by college educated middle class white collared workers, of Middle & S.Asian descent. The ``suicide volunteers`` are a small part of Al-Qeeda. The brains behind it is an army of engineers, techincians, bankers, accountants etc etc. Its a pretty damned efficent & well organised clandestine network.

I`ve often wondered why someone like you or Farangi_kush chose to live & work in the US. I mean, you guys could probably get better paying jobs in S.Arabia! You look at Western culture & values with disdain. You have a sense of being victimised by that evil coalition of American/Jewish/Hindu conspirators. Your posts are suggestive of a sense of moral superiority for your religion & ``noble causes``.

What can I tell you? I cant help but come to those conclusions about you. Aw, what the heck, if I`m wrong about you, I`ll be happy.

...but I just cant help but get that gnawing feeling in this evil, devious, conniving, conspiratorial brahmin hindu gut of mine...

TAhmed #345

Something I once heard:

One result of the massive loss of life in WWII was the skewed male/female ratio in Europe right upto the 80`s.