The Future Is Another Country: 2050 And Beyond

sadna: On WWII deaths. The ``battlefield dead`` is around 55 million. The Allied military and civilian losses were 44 million; those of the Axis, 11 million. A far greater number probably died from diseases they would not have contracted otherwise (e.g. malaria, dysentry) and a large number died early deaths years later due to the direct or indirect effects of injuries and loss of limb sustained in the war (e.g. people with legs amputated find it more difficult to conduct the exercise they need for a healthy heart). Add it all up, and one realizes the incredible toll war has on society. There are no winners in war or violence in today`s world.

Re: sadna

``...Hope we are wiser...``

I don`t think that we are.

Re: Urstruly

``...Why do you think that India has lost its sovereignty as well, (I know along with several others) but I want to hear it from you...``

India looks to marshalling global public opinion against Pakistan to restrain Pakistan or to settle its problems with it (and so does the US, admittedly for its problems). In this manner, India has given a de facto veto to the West over its foreign affairs, and internal affairs (to solve the terrorism problem). Rumor has it that an Indian corps commander was transferred at the behest of the US recently. Can you imagine the reverse happening?

So, while the clever ones on Chowk sparr and parry, they do not realize that they are doing so on a boat that has sprung a leak. What is more important -- plug the leak jointly, or hope that you knock the other fellow off first, and then repair the leak? This is a story with an old script (remember Siraj ud Dowlah, Tipoo? or today`s Afghanistan). Kipling may have been right after all -- we may yet become the `white man`s burden`.

Ref jay #: 314

[It is a small world. You must be in the I. Raman batch, Kalyana sundaram the fast bowler.]

It indeed is. No, I don`t recall Raman or Kalyanasundaram as my classmates so they must be at least one year junior to me.

[The valley is still there, the vijayan and the canteen is still intact.]

How about Hyder in his thatched hut on the road to Mukkam, the one with a new wife every year? I used to go there to get omelettes.

[The place has created a name for itself and is considered one of the top RECs. Every graduate, even the one yet to complete get jobs by campus recruitment, a very very far cry from my days.]

I was just amazed at the number of PhD programs and their graduates. Frankly, when it started out, it was the runt of the litter (of the 4 southern RECs). Nobody thought anything much would come out of that school. It has acquitted itself extremely well. And its graduates are all over the world.

Don`t complain about your time. Our batch (and the earlier one; we were the second batch to go through the college) had no hostels when we moved to the Chatthamangalam campus and we had cots lined up in one of the buildings meant to be a workshop and there we were, a hundred of us to a building with no privacy whatsoever. We started out sharing space at the Calicut Polytechnic on West Hill and moved out to Chatthamangalam a year and a half later.

[Them of course the IIM Calicut is there for the last four years. At least you can understand, when I heap $hit on pakis, it is from an intimate knowledge of what is possible from a poor rural illiterate background in india, not as an exception, but as rle from the thousand who have passed through the portals of REC, a second rung place in india.]

You are so right. From those extremely small beginnings we have created a fantastic university and an alumni any institution would be proud of. To think that we have one like that in each state in India! RECs may be second rung compared to the IITs but the IITs merely export all their grads to the US. At least some of the REC guys stay back and work in India. One secret: it is very difficult to flunk out of an IIT. It is quite possible to flunk out of the RECs, not because we are second rung but because it is not assumed automatically that you are a genius to have gained admission. The numbers are etched in my mind: the number of students graduating in the First Class in 1967 were 2 in Civil Engineering, 12 in Mechanical Engineering and 22 in Electrical Engineering. That is in the entire University of Kerala covering the whole state, not just REC, Kozhikode. We used to be really worried about the final exams.

I understand the REC in Srinagar is thoroughly screwed up. The guys are on strike demanding independence from India. Well, if they want to give up their entire career and the well-being of themselves and their progeny, they are welcome to it. Behaving like the latent Pakistanis that they are!

UrsTruly:

``I am weeping. Actually I weep everyday. But we have a Martial Law and dont even have a constitution. What is your excuse. ``

Hmmm, u actually shut me up effectively. Well, at least you have integrity. My excuse: I don`t have one, and I don`t need one. Just as you seem to be a consistent Islamic Fundamentalist, I am consistently a Secular Nationalist. Feel free to think of me as a Murderer Scum etc etc, coz for your type, that`s exactly what I am. :)

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Tahmed #330,

I agree with you in what you have said in that post. Now, how do you propose to realize the points you made.

ref: karakoram #285

While agreeing with most of what you are saying, I feel compelled to point out that what you say India should try and do, is exactly what India has actually been trying to achieve. From Indira Gandhi to her son Rajiv (along with with Mrs. Benazir) and now Mr. Vajpayee, all have been trying to find a peaceful way to resolve our disgreements with Pakistan. If you want proof look at their actions! They speak louder than words.

We have unilaterally offered Pakistan MFN status. WE have tried to increase person to person contacts. Just before the agra summit, Mr. Vajpayee offered to open more border crossings (even in Kashmir),make the visa process easier and announced several other such confidence building measures. In Lahore he visited the minar-e-Pakistan to set at rest Pakistani doubts that India does not accept their nation. He has repeatedly talked about the need for insaniyat in resolving all our disputes. But to what avail?

When Benazir tried to move towards peace with India she was dismissed from power before anything could happen. When Mr Sharif tried to do the same thing, Kargil happened and he too was chucked out. When Mr. Vajpayee tried a third time with Gen. Musharraf in Agra, the good general mistook this as a sign of India`s weakness. All the CBMs he rejected as unnecessary (though these days he is pleading with India the importance of the same). Not one sentence would he say without the word Kashmir in it. And even there his approach wasn`t diplomatic, for Indian sensibilities were completely brushed aside. It seems to me that he came as if to negotiate the terms of India`s surrender rather than to discuss and compromise. That the summit was going to fail was apparent from his behaviour weeks before it actually happened. Such behavior may have earned him many points back home, but it was a big step backwards as far as any chances of peace are concerned.

So please do not think that Indians are war mongerers. We are not. We would really like to have peace. But after more than 20 years of dealing with Pakistani intransigence, the reservior of patience and goodwill for it has totally dried out. The perception in India seems to be that Pakistan will never willingly accept peace. If there has to be peace, then peace has to be forced on it.

-narain

Urstruly,

Since you have not answered my question, I can only assume that you live outside of Kashmir. Therefore, it is quite tolerable for me to live with your state of being disgusted.

There is a peaceable, multireligious movement in Kashmir that calls for Kashmiri self determination. I suggest you grow up and investigate it.

shammi #329
``Most Indians` objections are on account of the poor relations between India/Pakistan that will render an EU-type arrangement unworkable, rather than due to any inherent flaws in it``

shammi, how many people died in WWII? 30 million? Thats what it took to make EU possible. Hope we are wiser.

Shammi # 329

It was an important post. I think with this loss of sovereignity we (Pakistani) are not in a position to decide our fate; no matter we hate someone or not and no matter how progressive our tin pot dictators may try to appear.

Why do you think that India has lost its sovereignty as well, (I know along with several others) but I want to hear it from you.

Karakoram #285
``Pakistan should arrest all those who it has evidence against, and begin criminal proceedings. But still not hand them over``

Karakoram, I too believe its enough for Pakistan to take action against those on the list and not actually hand them over. I happen to think this will be enough for India, too.

But there is a reason why this is unlikely to happen, the same reason why Pakistan is pussyfooting on the list and why India is making a point about it. The reason is that those on the list(for eg Dawood Ibrahim and the Sikhs) have actively collaborated with elements in the Pakistani government in commiting acts against India and Indians. By seeking action against them, India is waiting to see a sign that Pakistan is indeed disowning this sort of collaboration, for purposes of `cross-border violence`.

``it would be wise of it, to engage with Pakistan, come up with an agreement for the handover of the riminals, stop to cross-border infiltration/terrorism (after Mushy`s Jan 12th declaration, this should be easy to put in writing),``

Seeking Pakistani action on the list is similar to asking for action on a written agreement about cross-border violence, actually this list is even easier for Pakistan to act upon than any written agreement arrived at later, because there are only 1 or 2 Kashmiris on it, and apart from them, Pakistani action against the others doesnot infringe on Pakistan`s Kashmir concerns.

Saminashah

I am appalled and to some extent disgusted by your choice of words ``violent movements``. It was more disgusting than stuka`s choice of words.

Stuka

I am weeping. Actually I weep everyday. But we have a Martial Law and dont even have a constitution. What is your excuse.

Zafar #309 You asked for feelings from Pakistan on this. While not presuming to speak for anyone other than myself (even my wife wont give me the right to vote on her behalf on international issues), I think it is silly that for a country of 1.2 billion and of 130 million to look to a country of 280 million half a world around to help them help themselves. I think it is criminal for India and Pakistan elite to get wrapped up in nationalistic issues, and for the governments to spend even one rupee on the military, when the vast majority of their countrymen live in extremely difficult circumstances, and lack basic education. We should spend zero on the military. We should close our embassies (not just in India or Pakistan, but everywhere) and thus reduce government expenditures - with internet and video phones, you dont need these 19th century institutions to do conduct any substantive business anyway. Weird thoughts, but they make more sense to me than the nonsense we take for granted.

hamidm #306 And gashti, of course. And - how could hamzad forget this - sherabi ALWAYS goes with kebabi. Does he have no respect for our race: our degenerates are best damn degenerates there are on earth. Our degenerates have chappal-sized kebabs with their sherab, not those silly roasted peanuts. And our degenerates dont just huddle in a street corner with their sharab in a brown paper bag. Our degenerates have real class, man! They drink with bearahs in attendance. And Hamzad please make a note of the additional words provided by hamidm and update your dictionary.

hamzad #290 Thanks for explaining the terms. We are truly blessed with a wonderful panjabi vocabulary - the eskimo language they say has over a hundred different words for ``snow``. So like eskimos have lots of snow, we panjabis must have lots of (ahem!): ``chursee, bhungee, zaanee, sharabee, juaaree, zunkhay, tuchhay, luchhay, luffungay, nausaryay, and heejray`` as you indicate (This admission will no doubt send jay into an ecstatic fit of pure joy thereby getting rid of last months food that was blocking his intestines, but I have bad news for him - this is a ``normal person joke`` which he wouldnt understand).

You also write ``Chowk(for me)is not a place to learn.`` For me it is, so please also explain (if you will) the meaning of ``hamzad`` which you said I might know, and ``Afaqui`` as well while you are at it.

you continue ``It is to tell your opponents off...`` Please remind me what we are fighting about on chowk.

and you say ``or to frolic or banter with buddies.`` We agree here.