The Future Is Another Country: 2050 And Beyond

Urstruly,

1. Obviously rape is an unacceptable crime, whether it is part of state sponsored violence or the act of a depraved individual.

2. I am clearly against state sponsored violence and repression against civillians. Once again, retaliatory violence, in my opinion, serves little purpose.

3. My question concerns a statement you have made to the effect of you would support any org. that used violent tactics against oppressive govt. policies EVEN IF IT MEANT TARGETTING AND COERCING MEMBERS OF ITS COMMUNITY. In my opinion, this rationale is as ignoble as the rationale of the state sponsored violence. Its the same bs wrapped in a different bow.

4. I used the examples of neighboring Muslim countries to show a historic precedent of acid attacks against women who were showing ankles and faces, which were documented in scholarly essays by women writers from Iran in the 1980s.

Urstruly #393

I am completely blown away by your reasoning. In fact, I ams so impressed that I would like to suggest that your write the NYtimes, WashPost, other publications with your insights. Maybe you could start a web site and a regular column? We could call it: The View from Pakistan.

In this way the whole world (and not just us moorthi worshipping rapists) can enjoy the fruits of your intellect. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help.

Saminashah

Everything but a straight answer. You have once again mentioned acid throwing incidents all around the world yet you haven`t given one single proof. And by the way we are talking about Kashmir and not the whole world. But I think your following statement goes against your defence of Hindus and RAW. Read it:

``Would I want to support a group that coerced girls and women into wearing burqas/hijabs for fear of having acid thrown in their faces? (keeping in mind that these minority and local decrees are supposedly made as a ``protest`` against the Indian government.)``

Yes I would support that group to gain independence from the oppressors who show no mercy for helpless women and throw acid on their faces.

Saminashah, we can circle around the symantics like a dog chases its tail forever so let me rephrase my questions in simple form:

Q.1 Do you or dont you support and endorse the murder of kashmiris using state appartus by Hindu government or not.

Q.2 Do you or dont you suport and endorse the rape of Kashmiri women by Hindu army or not.

Simple yes and no would suffice. I dont care what is your political agenda, whether you worship cow or goat or you beleive in whatever political ideology.

shammi #378:

``Mr. Singh used to write a column called `With Malice Towards All` in the 80s when he was the editor of The Hindustan Times. ``

He still writes that column in the Hindustan Times though I have never seen the bare chested woman cartoon, in the internet edition atleast.

``. Once, a friend of mine (in 10th grade in Delhi) ran into Khushwant Singh at school. The first question that popped out of Sardarji`s mouth was, ``Son, do you have a girlfriend?`` ``

This Sardarji cracks me up. This is certainly not beyong Khushwant. Remember the ``Kiss on the cheek of the Pakistani Ambassador`s daughter - controversy``?

Though he think except for being another pacenik as far as Indo-Pak relations are concerned, he doesnot contribute anything original in that dept, his memoirs and insights about Indian politicians and their eccentricities are quite interesting. Thats what this article in Outlook is about. How I like the politician`s hypocricy being torn apart to show their real characters.

Zafar #383:

``But how relevant is any of this to anything that matters? Except for Gandhi, none of these people made any effort to influence the sexual mores of India or Pakistan (except maybe Indira, and that was more focused on fertility than anything else). Their lasting influence has been in other spheres (thank God) - and in any case, they`re all dead now. Beyond blackmail...``

I agree except in the case of Maulana Azad. Since he was supposed to be the conservative Mullah face of the Muslims in India - in total contrast to the secular sherry loving Jinnah - as YLH doesnot tire us of reminding. How could he be such an avid drinker? I mean hypocricy ki bhi had hoti hai. Atleast Indira didnt preach on the virtues of celibacy or sexual fidelity...

Who knows even current politicians are maybe just fooling us, how can we be sure. Isnt there a rumor about how Advani`s family is Sikh and not Hindu?

Sadna #384:

``I donot know about IG, but I read somewhere the allegation that Nehru had an unacknowledged `lost` son. Somehow these stories donot pick up a lot of steam perhaps because Indian leaders private lives seem pale in comparison with what else was going on.. ``

Nehru also was supposedly gay!! I agree with your conjecture on why these stories dont catch steam in India, and maybe that is good, but sometimes the inconsisitencies are relevant and hard to gloss over ...

saminashah #387
Thanks. I respect and admire you very much too. I was wondering why I was even relevant to the discussion between yourself and Urstruly , then remembered that the last time Urstruly quoted those figures on Kashmir, he said they were tabulated in the Urdu edition of the Jang, Pakistan. At that time I asked him why these same figures were nowhere to be found in the English edition of the same newspaper on that day or any other. I got no answer but Urstruly still remembers that question evidently and needs to vent his frustrations.

Urstruly #386
Be comforted, you and others will have plenty of opportunities to call me several things until Musharraf gets your jihadis out of India.

Another Tasnima of `Lajja` in making?

Baffling questions about Indian lady in Pearl case



By Tariq Butt

ISLAMABAD: Security agencies are probing several baffling questions pertaining to the unauthorised stay of an American passport holder Indian Muslim lady, Asra Q Nomani, with whom the kidnapped Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl had been living in Karachi.

The abducted journalist`s worried wife is also putting up with Ms Nomani at a house in Karachi that the latter got on monthly rental of Rs 40,000 a few months back. According to the documents available with The News, Ms Nomani, as a journalist, had applied for visa to the Pakistan`s press counsellor in New York on September 19, 2001 to cover the happenings in Pakistan immediately after the September 11 incident that was refused. However, she later got the visa from Pakistan Embassy in Washington, and on October 19, 2001 requested the External Publicity Wing (EPW) of the Information Ministry for its extension on behalf of Salon.Com.

The EPW issued the recommendation to the Interior Ministry for extension of Ms Nomani`s visa for 15 days. After the expiry of this period, she never reported to the EPW or any other agency of Pakistan government and disappeared.

It was discovered by security agencies during investigation of Pearl`s kidnapping that Ms Nomani has got a house on rent in Karachi where she and Pearl have been living. The lady wrote in her request to the press counsellor that she wanted to visit Pakistan, her ancestor`s birthplace. She was married to a Pakistani national but the marriage broke after three months.

In her one page hand-written letter to the press counsellor, Ms Nomani said: ``. . . I believe there is no journalist who can give you my unique combination of professional integrity, audience and personal understanding of Pakistan and Islam.`` ``. . . I am one of America`s senior Muslim journalists, a veteran of the Wall Street Journal since 1988. I have covered everything from Wall Street to the White House. I am currently writing a book for Harper Collins Publishers [New York] regarding religion and its reporting has taken me to my extended family`s homes throughout Pakistan. The Internet magazine, which reaches millions, Salon.Com, has hired me to send dispatches of the true humanity of this crisis unfolding in the region of my birth.``

Continuing, Ms Nomani wrote: ``I uniquely understand the pulse that beats strong in Pakistan because it is the pulse of my 65 years old Dadi in Lahore, my `Chachas` in Karachi, my `Phuppi` in Islamabad.`` Salon.Com had also issued ``To Whom it May Concern`` letter to Ms Nomani that confirmed that she would be working as a journalist for Salon during her travels abroad. The documents showed Latif Manzil, Village Jaigahan, District Jaunpur, Uttar Pradesh, as her address in India with her phone number 91-22-3675712 in Mumbai. Ms Nomani lives in Queens, New York, and her residence phone number is 718- 4310341, according to the documents.

re shammi 379

WHen I mentioned Gen Zia `fighting` India as well, I was metaphorically referring to his taking an independent line with Delhi as opposed to the subservient attitude of Mujib. But, now that you mention it, he actually literally fought India too: 2nd East Bengal, of which he was 2ndinC, was among the first units to face the Indian advance towards Lahore in 1965. For that conflict he was given some tamgha-e-something by Pakistan.

Ah, the primer on Bangladesh politics. I doubt I am the guy to do it impartially because I am openly unsympathetic to two parties- the Awami League (which claims Bangladesh as its paternal property) and Jamaat-e-Islami( which claims to be the solely accredited representative of Allah in Bangladesh).

Re the hyperventilating idiot #386

Jeez, I didn`t know that the Indian soldiers in Kashmir had quotas. Now, why don`t you apply some mathematics [if they teach that in your madrasas] and add the numbers from Afghanistan. Try to keep your calm as it may cause convulsions in the brain, or in your specific case, hemmorhoids you know where.

Urstruly,

Let me quote the text from your previous post:

Re: acid attacks in Kashmir

``The acid on unburqa-ed women was a RAW thing. Every faction in Kashmir including the most hardliner has condemned it.``

If you are going to accuse the attacks on girls and women who did not follow a local, Islamicist dictum meant as a protest, as a RAW conspiracy, the burden rests on you to support this notion. Unfortunately, these kinds of assaults have been common in other countries in which fundamentalists have taken upon themselves to terrify half of its population to serve their own purposes. Is RAW responsible for the acid attacks on women in Iran during Khomeini? Is RAW responsible for the Taliban`s abuses against women in Afghanistan?

If it is well known that the women in these countries were attacked with acid by their own countrymen and women to ``punish`` them for not adhering to the goals and tactics of these organisations, why suddenly the fantasy of a RAW conspiracy in Kashmir? Particularly when there are militant Islamic elements coming from Pakistan? I can at least admit the brutality my own people are capable of.

``Shamelss hindus do such things to create schisms in the freedom movement and they all backfire.``

I have studied movements like Cointelpro, and The Dissappeared in Argentina and so I am aware of the negative and unethical policies that governments have been complicit in esp. in reference to movements they deem dangerous to the security of the nation. It seems to be the modus operandi of many different groups with different agandas, including those involved in the Sept. 11 attacks. I would require, as would any reasonable adult, again, tangible evidence.

However, questioning the commitment of Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs in the nonviolent movement for an independent Kashmir is irrational and unwise. Perhaps you have not had the experience of working with people across racial, religious and political lines for a common cause. There are many people who have and clearly such a movement exists in Kashmir.

`` Whether it is the murder of sikhs or hindu kashmiris, hijackiing of their own planes or shooting their own cops everything has become a joke around the world. Hindu has screamed ``Wolf, Wolf`` so much so that no one beleives him anymore.``

I fail to glean the meaning from this sentence.

``In this movement of freedom the Hindu Kashmiris have decided to side with the oppressors so there is a limit to being all inclusive.``

Again, I think you speak from a position of extreme cynicism and distrust; and quite frankly it is not our decision to decide for Muslim, Sikh and Hindu Kashmiris whom they can trust, or what their tactics and goals are.

Finally, I do condemn the human rights abuses and assaults committed on behalf of the Indian government. I think there are many Chowkies who would agree that the Kashmir Issue needs to be resolved. However, I also think Pakistanis need to acknowledge the less than ethical actions of the groups involved in destabilizing Kashmir through violence.

My own hope is that it is solved peacefully and by the Kashmiris.

Btw, I respect and admire Sadna quite a bit.

Saminashah

Now you have started hallucinating. I didn’t put forth any interpretation of anything-Islamic or otherwise. The topic of discussion was whether the murder and rape of Kashmiris by hindus is morally correct or not. What the hell does it have to do with Islam or Muslim fantasies. Since you instigated the acid on woman argument I suppose you will support your argument with evidence first. What do you have? Claims by some obscure org that no one has ever heard about? And while you are at it I want to hear from you a full condemnation of hindu animals who have raped countless women in Kashmir-since you project yourself as an enlightened specie, concerned about women’s right and shiit so why not write a paragraph condemning these murderous freaks. In year 2001, Hindu Nazis have murdered 2939 Kashmiris out of which 457 are women and about 45-75 children. What do you have to say about this murder? And here is a report card for year 2000. All these figures are collated from the data given by International news sources like BBC, International Human Rights Commission, Amnesty International, and Asia Watch. Everything is there for everyone to see.

Unless you write a note of condemnation to condemn hindu rapists and murderers I will consider you an imposter a pathetic hindu transvestite like Sadna. Come join the Human Race and I did not say, I repeat Islamic race so don’t start hallucinating again.

Saminashah

Now you have started hallucinating. I didn’t put forth any interpretation of anything-Islamic or otherwise. The topic of discussion was whether the murder and rape of Kashmiris by hindus is morally correct or not. What the hell does it have to do with Islam or Muslim fantasies. Since you instigated the acid on woman argument I suppose you will support your argument with evidence first. What do you have? Claims by some obscure org that no one has ever heard about? And while you are at it I want to hear from you a full condemnation of hindu animals who have raped countless women in Kashmir-since you project yourself as an enlightened specie, concerned about women’s right and shiit so why not write a paragraph condemning these murderous freaks. In year 2001, Hindu Nazis have murdered 2939 Kashmiris out of which 457 are women and about 45-75 children. What do you have to say about this murder? And here is a report card for year 2000. All these figures are collated from the data given by International news sources like BBC, International Human Rights Commission, Amnesty International, and Asia Watch. Everything is there for everyone to see.

Unless you write a note of condemnation to condemn hindu rapists and murderers I will consider you an imposter a pathetic hindu transvestite like Sadna. Come join the Human Race and I did not say, I repeat Islamic race so don’t start hallucinating again.

Zafar #355
``But who decides what is more favourable, and when Mr Powell needs to pay us a visit?``

In presenting a credible threat of war and inviting use of US influence on Pakistan, India`s aim seems to bring about a cessation of violence in Kashmir. Its too early to say whether this strategy will work or war can actually be avoided.

satyavadi #376
I donot know about IG, but I read somewhere the allegation that Nehru had an unacknowledged `lost` son. Somehow these stories donot pick up a lot of steam perhaps because Indian leaders private lives seem pale in comparison with what else was going on..

Reply satyavadi # 376

``Maulana Azad was a big fan of Scotch...Nehru and Indira were both known to be not particually inhibited about sex.``

...MK Gandhi, on the other hand, was clearly a deeply disturbed individual when it came to *cough * intimate relations (totally nuts actually: please refer to his ``experiments`` of sleeping naked with beautiful young women to ``test`` his purity of mind...uh huh...). And Jinnah had this penchant for hiring well built men to work for him (can you say ``eye candy``????? How about ``repressed closet case``?)

Have no idea about Indira (though the woman must have found satisfaction with someone after dumping Rajiv and Sanjay`s pop - vaisai, 1971 could be put down to a serious case of frustration...let this be a warning to all of us...), but Nehru of course was the ``rose between two thorns`` - a somewhat disturbing idea, but only aesthetically. Have no idea about Azad, but he was probably unbearable sober.

But how relevant is any of this to anything that matters? Except for Gandhi, none of these people made any effort to influence the sexual mores of India or Pakistan (except maybe Indira, and that was more focused on fertility than anything else). Their lasting influence has been in other spheres (thank God) - and in any case, they`re all dead now. Beyond blackmail...

Urstruly,

With all due respect, your opinions do not represent an Islamic interpretation that is legitimate to me. And I refuse to put up with the fantasies generated by Muslims who refuse to live with the rest of the world. RAW instigated the acid attacks? Show me the evidence from an accredited news source.

Rdesi

I thought the article was brilliant, particularly the analysis of Sayyed Qutb`s ``Milestones``. Perhaps someone should post it on Chowk.

Zafar

Finally heard an interview with Medha Patkar...she`s quite interesting...what`s the deal with Enron and India?

ylh #451

You are mixing up many things in my comment about LK Advani and Jinnah.

There is no question in my mind that Jinnah is a classy guy, inner-temple-meh-dinner-khaya, quality background.

Advani is a lower-middle class guy with lots of hangups. He has a moderate education and narrow background.

On a personal level there is no comparison between the two. BUT WHEN IT COMES TO BEING SECTARIANISM THERE IS A CLEAR RELATIONSHIP.

Both have taken the ``communal`` short cut to power. This is the tie that binds them.

It is amusing you say:

``Now in the intellectual circles its a given that Minority Nationalisms are heroic symbols of resistance... Majority nationalisms are oppressive.``

The question is: what is the quality of the minority nationalism? Is the nationalism of a Martin Luther King Jr. or is the nationalism of a Farrakhan? There is a world of difference between the two. Which one do you think Jinnah`s actions are closer to?

My point was simply this: Advani has played an honourable role in the Indian goverment. Lately, he has taken to given many speeches about secularism and multi-culturalism. In spite of his ``good behavior``, given his role in the destruction of the Babri masjid, I don`t take his ``positioning`` very seriously.

Similarly, given the reality of the role Jinnah played in a creating a sectarian state and the great human, social and economic damage this did, I look upon his ``secular`` statements with a similar scepticism.

Urstruly,

I`d love to stay calm, but your posts make me roll on the floor with laughter.

I can understand the outrage of the ``hindians`` comiting atrocities on Kashmiris. I have spoken out against it on Chowk several times.

What makes me laugh is the unmitigated sanctimony that OBL & you profess when you judge USA ,Israel & ``Hindia``. Everything thats evil is projected onto the the hindus & jews & other ``infidels``. Every act of hatred & violence comitted by muslims is rationalised as a ``just & sacred`` cause--I guess its to passify your own conscience.

The unkindest cut of all-- its guys like you that give Islam a bad name. Its more than evident how moderate muslims (Indians & Pakistanis alike) are offended by your idiotic psychotic logic. Ofcourse, in order to justify your conscience, you dissmiss them as besharam, communist,hindu-hugging bleeding heart liberals.

Its too bad Rev Graham says ``Islam has a different God than others``, or something to that effect. You just play into the hands of the christian & hindu fundos.

Your sense of reality is so warped that I think its crossed the threshold, into the dimension of psychosis. I think you fundo muslims have been brainwashed into a mass psychosis; quite similar to what the Nazis did to the Germans.

So, sanctimonious mullah, when you judge hindus, it doesnt hurt me. It makes me roll on the floor laughing.

For the sake of argument, lets assume you are right--that we hindus are devoid of conscience & deserve to spend our after-lives in Hell. Great! I`d rather spend an eternity in Hell than a SECOND in Heaven with a psycho like you!