The Future Is Another Country: 2050 And Beyond

Hamzad Afaqui

Please add ``Hindu`` to the list of The Pharoah,Nimrod,Caligula & Shaddad etc. etc.; keeping in mind the forced casteration of Muslim men and women in late 70s and early 80s in India by Gandhi inc.

Sadna

Now there are two esteemed memebers of this forrum against whom you have threatened physical violenec, one is honorable Mr. hamidm and second is yours faithfully. Please refrain from physical threats, because your anti-Muslim/anti-Paksitani rehetoric is more than enough to soil the pants of peacelovers like hamidm and yours sincerely.

Re: Romair various

I think that the only way forward for India and Pakistan for the future is a loose confederation of both countries along the EU model, that jointly guards the Subcontinent and accepts certain basic values for their citizens -- human rights, tolerance, pluralism and democracy. This confederation will jointly manage/protect Kashmir. Imagine how politically (influence from C. Asia/Middle East to the Far East) and militarily powerful a confederation like that will be (with 2 million men under arms and nukes). With the largest Muslim population under one umbrella, it will have influence more than the fractious OIC ever will. We do not have to repeat the mistakes of France/Germany in the two world wars -- we have their example in front of us, and also nuclear weapons which they did not. This loose federation will change the dynamic from a win-lose proposition to a win-win and will be politically palatable to most.

However, this vision requires leadership of a calibre that is missing both in India/Pakistan. You would be surprised to learn that none other than Advani advocates it, but his reputation is such that he will have a hard time being taken seriously. The message is right, but the messenger is not -- this vision will take a long time, if ever, before it comes to fruition. It will require a single minded focus, and no distraction from the baiters on each side of the Radcliffe line. This is an idea worth pursuing, but its time has probably not yet come.

I have elaborated in some greater details on this in `Is Thackeray a Terrorist` board by Farzana Versey (posts #287 & #313).

HARAAMI/DEVIOUS MILITANTS IN PAKISTAN

Eevryone must have read about the Wall St. Reporter kidnapped in Karachi. Demands of the kidnappers are (from Dawn):

``Among the conditions are demands for the repatriation of Pakistani prisoners taken from Afghanistan to Cuba and for the release of the F-16 fighter jets that Pakistan bought from the United States in the 1980`s.

The message also demanded that the former Taliban ambassador to Pakistan, Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, now in United States custody, be returned to Pakistani custody, and that any Pakistani nationals detained in the United States during the domestic anti-terrorism campaign get access to lawyers and to their families.``

Me: Some of these `demands` are debatable and some in my opinion are quite fair IMO, such as access to lawyers for people who have no ties to the terrorist acts but are being held on immigration violations.

But I fear for the ignorant Pakistani dehatis (that we all so love to protect, because they are dehatis after all - patronizing I know, Hamzad rubbed off a bit on me), who will assume it is OK to kidnap, murder, hijack, if your demands are half decent. The lesson we have to learn is that the demands do not justify commiting crimes, that are crimes in the eyes of the world community and of Allah (for believing Muslims).

For Islam buffs, an example during one of the Caliph`s (Ali, I believe) time was how one of the Muslim commanders would organize raids on neighboring non-muslim villages. When asked if this was true, the commander replied that the non-muslim arimies conduct raids on muslim villages and this was in revenge. The Caliph severely admonished the commander for committing a crime and advised him to use his forces to protect Muslim villages instead of pillaging other villages. But I digress.

These militant groups have very clear goals (available on their websites) about enforcing Shariah, Taliban type society, making all India Muslim by force, and other such unacceptable (to me and other freethinking Pakistanis - the no longer silent majority) people. These half-way decent demands are to garner support from some of this majority and to seek legitimacy.

These militants are far from on their death-bed, these are the first of the comebacks they will try to make and then there will be disturbances from their death-throes when they are put down.

Lets us Pakistanis stay the course and take these illegitimate, criminal groups who have taken our religion, our culture and our evolving way of life hostage, OUT.

With regard to the Cuban prisoners and Mulla Zaeef I do not agree with their demands at all. In fact, I read somewhere that many Taliban commanders are holed up in Peshawar. They should be expelled immediately to Afghanistan to face charges for crimes against the people of Afghanistan.

There is still some way to go... No criminal activities can be supported. Period.

Ms. Revathy is typical of a small number of educated indians who are unable to understand the objective and practical circumstances in which the indian state must survive. Anyone who makes statements like:

``. I believe that the strong message that is being sent out to the powers-that-be, is No More War! I believe that it would require someone very stupid, indeed to submit to the hierarchical discipline, arbitrary, crude, even brutal, imposed by the armed forces…``

must live in a dreamworld. Meanwhile Saudi`s and other people continue to fund 10`s of millions of dollars to mass-murderers around the world. Our neighbor Pakistan (is it really a country anymore?) is their willing surrogate. How should we deal with this situation? By having a peace march? By decrying the caste system in India? By improving literacy in India? In a different context, should the US respond to the WTC by increasing social spending?

In August of 2001, the dreaded war-loving BJP invited a self-appointed dictator called Musharraf to discuss peace. Every effort was made to find some shared ground. What did we get? Grandstanding of the worst type. The most disgusting distinctions between freedom fighter and terrorist. A 20-year with an AK-47 killing civilians is a terrorist. PERIOD. A person throwing a grenade in an open marketplace under the belief that he is going to kill servicemen is a terrorist. END OF DISCUSSION.

Was there even the semblance of acknowledgement of this issue? NO. Instead, this foolish dictator abused the hospitality of his hosts, pontificated to various news organizations on imaginary processes by which trained thugs become ``freedom fighters``, explained that ``kashmir is the core issue`` between India and Pakistan, nothing else can be resolved first, we will keep killing your soldiers and civilians, after all this type of killing is really a ``freedon struggle``, etc.

Guess what was the result: broad masses of people in India have concluded correctly that it is not Kashmir that is the core issue but rather the Pakistani state with its current culture. This is a correct conclusion and one that many other countries have also come to.

Indian troops have been appropriately deployed and an international spotlight placed on the terrorists moving to India from Pakistan. The NYTimes is reporting every killing in North India (and more recently Calcutta). Suddenly, the dictator Musharraf`s tune has changed. No more do we hear the disgusting and self-serving characterization of mass murderers as ``freedom fighters``.

Let the troops stand on guard for six months. If there is a genuine change in support for mass murder within Pakistani society they can be withdrawn. If Kashmir is to be dealt with as a border dispute rather than a Jihad, then some discussion take place. Otherwise, let these folks and the world understand that we have responded to their ``undeclared`` war with a declared one.

sadna #50 now I have seen everything: hamidm stirring up latent chowk nazis. I can see the ads now: Special sales on lampshades made from pure hamidm chamri. Also please try our new line of hamidm soap, made from fine imported paki fat.

tahmed321 #54
``Now I have seen everything: hamidm stirring up latent chowk nazis ``
Now don`t act so surprised and innocent tahmed, who else but myself was termed bigot and Pakistan/Islam hater by a certified noble character like you for so many months on chowk?

Better worry about your own and these folks chamadi, they are your own countrymen and are facing not mere threats but actual retaliation:

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=6914
``Hazaribagh, Jharkhand, January 28: Two Pakistani terrorists with ISI links, who were involved in last week`s attack on American centre in Kolkata, were shot dead in an encounter with the police in Hazaribagh, Jharkhand, early on Monday morning.

``The Jharkhand police raided a terrorist hideout in Hazaribagh at daybreak today (Monday) and in the resulting shooting, two terrorists-both Pakistani nationals-were seriously injured and died later,`` Home Secretary Kamal Pande told a news conference in Delhi. Pande added one of them ``gave a statement before dying`` that they had carried out the attack.

The two have been identified as Mohammed Idris alias Mohammed Zaheed of Khanawal in Multan in Punjab province of Pakistan and Salim also from the same province, DIG (North Chhotanagpur range), A.K. Sinha told the media.

Sinha, along with Hazaribagh Police Superintendent Dipak Verma and Assistant Commissioner of Delhi Police Ravishanker, said following a tip-off a raid was conducted on a hideout of the terrorists on Khan Road at 2.30 a.m. by a joint team of Delhi and Hazaribagh Police.

While the DIG said one of those killed was involved in the Kolkata attack, the Union Home Secretary said in Delhi that Idris confessed their involvement in the attack.

The police cordoned off the predominantly Muslim area, asked residents to evacuate and commanded the militants holed up in a house to surrender. The militants, however, refused to give themselves up and tried to sneak out of the house after firing at the troops.

In the ensuing encounter, Salim was shot dead on the spot, while Idris, who was critically wounded, died during treatment at the Sadar Hospital. Officials said Idris, in his dying declaration before the police, admitted to having shot dead four policemen at the American centre on January 22.

Idris also confessed he was riding pillion and had opened fire on the security post at the American centre from his AK-47 assault rifle, the officials said. They added, his accomplice Sadaqat, who was riding the motorbike, was still at large.

The rifle was seized after the encounter. The police also recovered 43 cartridges, one railway ticket in the name of Idris from Howrah to Gaya dated January 23, a day after the American centre attack, a consumer card of a gas agency of Hazaribagh, a Maruti Zen bearing number plate WB-12 a 5703, besides Rs 22,200 in cash from the site.

The officials did not rule out the possibility of the presence of other ISI operatives in the area. They said Idris and Salim had been staying in the rented house for the last four months posing as shoe merchants. ``

Urstruly #53
``soil the pants of peacelovers like hamidm and yours sincerely.``
I donot recall threatening either yourself or hamidm, though I admit it will be wise of you to stay clear of my home. Pl. do continue with your noble efforts, noone said the path of peace and nonviolence was an easy one

Shammi

``I think that the only way forward for India and Pakistan for the future is a loose confederation of both countries along the EU model, that jointly guards the Subcontinent and accepts certain basic values for their citizens -- human rights, tolerance, pluralism and democracy. ``

Now, it is this kind of non-sense talk that gets my goat. For crying out loud please show some ``human rights, tolerance, pluralism and democracy`` to your own people like Kashmiris first and then talk about confederation and shi-t to us. And yes, I am talking about 80,000 Kashmiris whom you have murederd using state machinery and draconian laws like Disturbed Area Act of 1990; raped countless women and burned their villages, razed their houses to the ground and raped their children without remorse and impunity. And these attrocities are being committed right now as we speak. Human rights, tolerance, plurism, and democarcy, my ass; you are racist, religious bigots, and nazis pure and simple- the noble ideals of rights, tolerance, and pluralism become ``pleed`` when it is uttered by remorseless murederous freaks.

# Pmishra2:

I admit that I agree with many of the points you make but that doesnt take away the point that we need to and we can Introspect at the same time when we stand united against the hatred from outside.

Lets not the threat from the outside prevent us from fulfilling our obligations and promises we have made ourselves, to our minorities, to the various injustices in our society. I know that what I am saying is an ideal situation, but we should make an attempt, a sincere one.

Rgds,

Jntuece99

Sadna:

For whatever its worth (nothing), I thank the govt. of India for eliminating those Pakistani terrorist in Jharkand. There is no doubt in my mind that they were terrorists considering the fact that they were armed to the teeth and violently resisted being captured.

I was utterly dissapointed when Azhar was handed over to the Taliban during the IA hijacking. I`m of the firm belief that Terrorist demands should never be met no matter what, it saves lives in the future. Or better yet terrorsist should be dealt with in more unorthodox ways. For example, if the Indian govt. had put some slow poison or time delay release poison in azhar before freeing him (without his knowledge of course), he could have been set free, yet he would have perished in the days to follow. These b * *tards have to be dealt with and we have to be more cunning and smarter than them if we wish to succeed.

A salute to you guys. Indian police is much better then its Pakistani couterparts. I still remember that the worldwide cricket match fixings were brought to light by Indian investigators.

Peace.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Attn. Romair,

PAF is carrying out some interesting exercises taking off and landing on the Lahore-Islamabad motorway, an exercise which to my knowledge is new in Aviation History.

Any comments?

Sincerely

Yasser Hamdani

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts