Pakistanis in Afghanistan, Nothing New

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Well said Shah Nawaz!that is a good analyses of the type of sylabus that is being rammed down the throats of our students in Pakistan I mean the stuff about Islamiat and Pakistan Studies.No doubt about the fact that it is SPOOKY! you have used just the right word. Keep writing you do have talent but what on earth are you doing in IT? i dont think that is your cup of tea but you know better which part of the USA are you settled in? I might be visiting the USA next year because my daughter is now an undergraduate at YALE University and doing pretty well. dO get in tpouch if you read this note. Give my regards to your family.

Tariq Aqil

good article shahnawaz where are you and how are you?? what happened to your plans about joining the civil service? at the bottom of this page it says you are a software engineer. Have you also junped on to the ID band wagon?? do get in touch and let me have your email adress.

regards and best wiashes from your old teacher inIslamabad

Tariq Aqil

Amit #41
Since you are so polite, I`ll say I`m sorry for the harsh terminology in my previous post, but I think harsh terminology upfront is anyday better than civil war later, hope you will agree..

``we need to have a realistic attitude towards Islam, given its powerful influence`` ``I was simply speculating that if we had a better insight about Islam``

Amit, I am all for a better insight into Islam as religion or political philosophy, about how religion influences how Muslims relate to the world in different ways worldwide.

But firstly remember all these so-called absolutes are not graven in stone, these are things in evolution, just like the Indian state. Muslims like everyone else are finding their feet in the modern world and are doing it in different ways, just like everyone else. As Indians, Indian Muslims have every right to to find their feet in their own unique way in India and develop their own unique world view as Indians, just like Indian Hindus and other Indians.

Secondly, I donot see any sense in saddling Indian Muslims with the manifestations of political or religious Islam making their appearance elsewhere in the world. My neighbour in my hometown is a Muslim, but he is not a Saudi, an Afghan or a Pakistani, and doesnot have to answer to anyone for their stupid choices, until he makes them his own. If I am relentless in holding him to their choices, he doesnot have any room to make different choices. This unforgiving wish-fulfilling cycle about Indian Muslims among Indian Hindus troubles me greatly. Its like someone implying in every single interaction that because of the Mumbai riots, as a Hindu I cannot but have genocidal tendencies and malafide intentions toward Muslims, and refusing to consider the possibility that I might not.

(btw whether I saddle every Saudi, Afghan or Pakistani with the stupid choices their governments and fellow citizens have made depend on the circumstances).


``I know that our intentions are noble and that we Indians genuinely want everyone to live together happily as equal members in our society.``

``That should not be termed as being communal, as is often the case when someone questions the conventional wisdom``

Uff these terms. When a family has three sons, its not `conventional wisdom` that the family has three sons, its plain fact. You can`t change the number of sons by calling it ` questioning conventional wisdom`. Thats how Indians are, some are Muslims some are Hindus.

Now this is not to say the family with the three sons is living an idyllic life. But either the family and its sons can apply its minds to living `happily` or life can be wasted moaning or in costly lose-lose estrangements.

A chacha who got estranged a generation ago, with a uncongenial wife and with nothing better to do with himself may keep trying to incite rebellion against moms cooking and fathers regular drunken binges, but hey thats a chacha, not the head of the household, he has his own house, let him first realise his philosophy in his own household.

A real family at least has a choice to split up amicably when the sons grow up, where India is concerned its not a meaningful choice for either Muslims or Hindus.

I think Jinnah looked at Hindu-Muslim relations more as a landlord-tenant situation where yesterdays landlord had to become todays tenant. Jinnah and perhaps Islam presented an illusion that religious communities have a choice to separate themselves completely from each other though they have for generations lived side by side, well, IMO, this illusion has proved to be just that, an illusion. It was not possible to accomplish a complete separation and even as neighbours we are still not separated.

The harsh reality facing India, the world and various religions is that multireligious communities including Muslims and Hindus have to learn how to pursue common political goals together amicably, there is nowhere to go to avoid it. What terms we do so in India is Indians choice.

If Pakistanis as a country chooses not to be amicably reconciled with the fact that Hindus also live on the subcontinent, hey thats their own inherited problem, Jinnah is father of their nation not ours.



But that Muslims in India are not reconciled to living with Hindus, what basis do you have to imply this? What specifically do you think is irreconcilable about Hindu-Muslim problems in India?

(btw even if an `unchanging truth` in Islam decrees a political separation with the nonMuslim world(which its never been clear to me whether it does) well, bad luck, such an unchanging truth has to reconcile itself with the real world)

``in particular, we need to be vigilant about our borders and demographics. For e.g. in West Bengal and Assam, illegal immigration is seriously changing the local demographics and we may end up with a major problem down the line.``

Yes I agree we definitely need to be vigilant about migrations and demographic changes. I think India is, to some extent, perhaps not enough. But notice that Indian Muslims in the rest of the country have nothing to do with illegal migrations in WB and Assam or the potential political problems associated with it. A Muslim in Maharastra, has nothing to do with any incident created by an illegal Bangladeshi immigrant in Assam. So pl. donot keep generalizing.

Re:SameerJB#37

Sameer, the main dilemma for non-muslims is how to establish the right relationship with muslims. Many muslims have this notion that if only they were left alone and separate from the rest, they could establish a true Islamic system that would bring back their past glory. Since the non-muslim world including India, US, Russia, Israel etc. are constantly involved with muslims in some context, there is a tendency to blame them for all problems in the muslim world. Maybe,the rest of the world should step back and let the muslim countries go ahead and do their best in establishing a system of their choice. Let them try it out to the fullest and then we can discuss the outcome.

Re:sadna#38

Please do not misunderstand me. I am not blaming Indian muslims or anyone else for that matter. I was simply speculating that if we had a better insight about Islam, we might have had a cleaner, amicable partition such as that between the Czechs and the Slovaks. We might have been able to avoid all the partition communal riots, the trains full of dead bodies, the wars, the Kashmir problem etc. More importantly, our resources would have been devoted to devlopment rather than suppressing militancy in Kashmir. I know that our intentions are noble and that we Indians genuinely want everyone to live together happily as equal members in our society. However, the events of the past 50 years and the constant tension with Pakistan does raise questions whether our all encompassing secular vision was worth it.

In any event, as we move forward, we need to develop a well thought out policy towards Islam. We certainly want good relations with Islamic countries and equality for Indian muslims, but we need to have a realistic attitude towards Islam, given its powerful influence. That should not be termed as being communal, as is often the case when someone questions the conventional wisdom. In particular, we need to be vigilant about our borders and demographics. For e.g. in West Bengal and Assam, illegal immigration is seriously changing the local demographics and we may end up with a major problem down the line. The US which has an open attitude towards immigration is closely looking at people coming here from the Islamic countries. Clearly if muslims and non-muslims find it hard to live together, the only option may be to say, that we will be friends but we will each reside on our respective side of the fence.

re: Amit

{{ I am questioning the fundamental vision of Gandhi, Nehru et al. about setting up India as a united, secular nation. I think most hindus and non-muslims do not understand the nature of Islam as a religion. They want to treat Islam like any other religion, when it is completely unique in its influence over people and its ability to foster a special identity. Islam evokes a level of religious sentiments on a scale that is not experienced in any other faith. None of the other religions in India can be compared to Islam in this respect. Therefore, it is not surprising that partition took place; it is more surprising that we Indians could never understand why it was being demanded. }}

i agree....but what do we do now? this problem isn`t just for hindus and indians...every non-muslim in the world has to figure this one out b.c. Islam is everywhere...just the other day i was in singapore and there was a big controversy when the govt banned muslim headscarfs in public schools...keep in mind this is a country which treats its minorities more fairly than any other...where every law is enforced...where there truly is equal opportunity....in their quest to build a cohesive society, they have successfully integrated the buddhist, catholic, and indian (tamil hindus) population, but keep running into trouble with the muslims...is islam fundamentally at odds with the rest of the world? and if so, what is the best way to handle it?

Amit # 27, 36

Amit, despite the fact that what you wrote is just what every Islamist says as well, do you realize how close you have come to declaring Islam a cult?

Nothing in history or common sense supports this view.

I would go a step further. I will completely question the facile traditional wisdom propounded equally by both Islamists and enemies of Islam: that there is ANY element of Islam that is unique to Islam.

There is NOTHING uniquely evil or uniquely good about Islam (sorry Zeemax).

Yes, there are forms of Islam, just like forms of any other religion, that are like cults - actually ARE cults. And these cult forms have a deep urge to export their cultist thinking in all directions.

The hard truth is as follows: many/most Islamic nations have gotten trapped within this cultist form of religiosity. This was not always so. But for many historical/psychological reasons cultist thinking has been on the rise in many Islamic nations (just as it has in India, and we have to fight our own cultists of all religious persuasions).

The problem is that cultist thinking is like a blackhole: cults are almost impossible to break out of, unless they collapse on their own -- which they invariably will, but after exacting huge human and social costs.

The challenge for all of us is how to tackle this mass cultist religiosity. And many Muslims themselves acknowledge that, as things stand currently, they face this challenge more acutely than many others.

Amit #36
Amit, I find your reasoning to display the simplistic grotesqueness seen in the hideous logic of bloodthirsty mobs during communal riots, where one neighbour is killed for the crime of following the same religion as another neighbour, an extreme and futile exercise in intellectual laziness.

``That way, we would have no Kashmir problem, no cross-border terrorism, no communal rioting, no Babri Masjid issues and no reason to quarrel with Pakistan``

You lay the blame of Indo-Pak problems solely on the presence of Muslims in India. Your earlier arlier thesis was that Pakistani Muslims hate Hindus because of their Islamic fervor and because Islam is a unique religion. Now you seem to be saying they hate Hindus and think of India as enemy BECAUSE India has Muslims. How does this conclusion follow?


Then you lay the blame of communal problems in India solely on the Islamic fervor of Indian Muslims, again, on what basis? There is a longknown connection between politicians jostling for power and communal riots, for example it was Hindu Congress leaders who would engineer riots in places like Ahmedabad using their supporters among the goons, both Hindus and Muslims. Other glaring examples which had nothing to do with Muslims are the Hindus who killed Sikhs in `84, the language riots in various states, attacks on Christian worshipping places and the ethnic conflicts in the Northeast.

``The events in Afghanistan and Pakistan over the past few months are an eye opener, as all of us are groping to understand Islam``

Again, very grotesque reasoning. Even though it was THEIR OWN governments which were in the thick of action in the events of Pakistan and Afghanistan, ordinary Afghans and Pakistanis donot burden themselves with so much guilt, responsibility and questions about their nationalism which you are putting on the shoulders of the vast number of lawbiding peaceful Indian and Bangladeshi Muslims who played absolutely no role in these events. You make these events a basis for questioning the basics of Indian nationalism, but not the basis of Pakistan nationalism. Again why?

The correct interpretation of the post-Independence period and the events in Pakistan and Afghanistan is that the two nation theory and the communal hatred which is required to sustain it may be effective for creating religiously pure nations, but such hatred only retards such nations further progress. Progress these days is in peaceful coexistence and attention focussed on improving ordinary peoples lives irrespective of religious identity. Indian Hindus need to contemplate the lessons learned about the futility of beign obsessed with exclusively religion-based identities.

I for one have full faith that Indian Muslims are in the process of creating a more positive identity of their own and contributing to the positive identity of Indian nationalism while resolving any contradictions between their nationality and religion. But I think the major obstacle delaying the process are their Cassandra-like countrymen who stupidly choose to burden them (Indian Muslims) with responsibility for every stupid thing every Muslim elsewhere in the world does.

Amit #27: Intersting little discussion going on here. Your observations are undeniable but other explanations are possible besides yours. What you consider the strength of Islam through examples of a boy in Chicago or a well-educated Afghan can be considered as exceptions to the norm, found in every society and religion. Actual problem is society allowing or indifferent or appreciating such extremists.

I have mentioned many times the effects of mind control through education system, media and government using it to extend their identity based on ``not-India``. Additionally the concept of virtuous life and its rewards in afterlife is very powerful force in favor of such exceptions. According to Islam, defending religion and spreading the true words of god are among the highest quality virtues. Here let me answer one of my own earlier question to which Harimau answered. It was: why has god forsaken Muslims, in the last several centuries, for being followers of his true words in comparison to non-Muslims? The answer by a ``true`` Muslim would be that this world is temporary or a mirage. God will not forsake Muslims in the eternal life, supposed to be after judgement day. The problem with this arguement is that the miseries of this world are a reality whereas the promise of a future good life is a hope, myth or simply defending the basic tenets of Islam and not the miseries of this world.

Well, if this is the case, why do not most Muslims try to buy an insurance for eternal bliss in afterlife? All of them actually wish this insurance and, Amit, your observation of ``strength`` of Islam in terms of strong feelings towards other Muslims is a direst result of this desire to be counted on the side of true message of god and thus hope to insure a seat in heaven.

Other way of explaining your onservation is the tradition of Muslims to consider Islam, a complete guide to living according to god`s choice. The total submission and belief in religion as ``deen`` helps protect and promote otherwise very weak basis of Islam. Islam will always need total devotion, unconditional submission and Muslims remaining tied as closely as possible to the bases. Because of this, Islamic base is extremely fortified with centuries of pouring in of concrete to its foundations by its followers through outwardly in-the-face opposition to all non-Islamic philosophies. The problem is that over zealous efforts to strengthen its bases have left little time to think about and improve the building itself and it is crumbling due to poverty, misery, illiteracy, obscurantism, literal exegesis etc etc. The structure above the foundations is there for all to see. The strength in the foundations has made it very rigid and uncompromising on the basics - because compromising on the basics or foundation principles decrease the probability of entering heaven in the afterlife.

So Muslims will find great strength for sticking together on the basis of strong foundations, irrespective of the building above the foundations. Non-Muslims successes as well as hostilities will keep giving strength to Muslims brotherhood based on foundations with little interest to tackle miseries resulting due to poor condition of the visible part of the above ground structure.

Due to the rigidity of foundations and pathetic condition of the house, it can not stand a jolt. The fear of collapsing from the jolt of reforamtaion will keep the reformation and reformers at bay. A reforamtion will be too radical and risky for Islam to face.

Therefore whatever the boy in Chicago is saying is the right path, if defending Islam and a place in heaven are the main concerns.

________________________________________________

Stuka: Writing in English is better. All bets are off once it is not English. There is no second choice, third choice,..........

Harimau: I have already responded to your post. To me, non-theism is better than theism and polytheism is better than monotheism, if one can not live without definitely accepting, believing and practicing a religion.

Saminashah: I am sure, you and I will have a good discussion soon, on some more earthly and perhaps Pakistan-related topic.

Rsaxena: Don`t take out your dislike of the grandson of a Punjabi, Mohathir Mohammed on a future Punjabi grandfather, Stuka -what? 30-40 years from now?

Re:Akash, Rsaxena, sadna

I am questioning the fundamental vision of Gandhi, Nehru et al. about setting up India as a united, secular nation. I think most hindus and non-muslims do not understand the nature of Islam as a religion. They want to treat Islam like any other religion, when it is completely unique in its influence over people and its ability to foster a special identity. Islam evokes a level of religious sentiments on a scale that is not experienced in any other faith. None of the other religions in India can be compared to Islam in this respect. Therefore, it is not surprising that partition took place; it is more surprising that we Indians could never understand why it was being demanded.

In a way, it would have made a lot more sense if we had embraced the two-nation theory in its fullest. That means, we could have accepted partition whole heartedly including muslim majority areas of Kashmir, along with a complete, peaceful transfer of minorities. In other words, Pakistan would be 100% muslim and India would be 100% non-muslim. Of course the agreement would have included lasting friendly relations with Pakistan. We could have then constituted a secular India among the other religions in India, while Pakistan could have forged out a positive identity around Islam. That way, we would have no Kashmir problem, no cross-border terrorism, no communal rioting, no Babri Masjid issues and no reason to quarrel with Pakistan. By blindly insisting on an all encompassing secularism, we ignored reality and are stuck with all these problems as we adamantly try to prove our point in Kashmir and other places.

At this point in time, we cannot implement such a solution any more but in 1947 it was a distinct possibility. The events in Afghanistan and Pakistan over the past few months are an eye opener, as all of us are groping to understand Islam. We were all fed with this line that all religions should live together in one secular system. It is not just India, but other non-muslim nations like USA also believe in this notion of universal secularism. However, it is clear that this theory is seriously flawed and we should debate it as we shape future policies. The US is itself trying to understand Islam, given the events that have occured. Maybe we Indians should also think about it.

Stuka---34

``Tundee e baad e mukhalif sey naa ghubraa aye uqab

Ye tO chultee hai tujhhay oonchaa uraanay keliyay``

aadab urz hai!

Hamzad:

``There is complete calm & serenity in the eye of the hurricane or tornado.Only those on the periphery are flailing & thrashing about.``

So how`s life on the periphery?

Amit,

While I appreciate your thinking outside the box, I have to register my concerns with what passes for Islam nowadays. The Islam in Indonesia in respect to the East Timorese, or the superstitous Islam that indulges its followers in their conspiracy fantasies, the cultish, nationalistic and violent interpretations that encourage desparate young men to act like arrogant jihadi criminals, or the outrageous by any human rights standard interpretations of Islam that subject its Muslim women and non Muslim countrypeople to kanjaroo courts and civil systems-these Islams are a grave concern to everyone.

Amit

``. I think non-muslims need to understand it and not get offended by it; rahter they should respect it as a unique attribute of Islam.``

Great, we ae not offended. And all of us Hindus should castrate ourselves and bow before the ``such`` Muslims,and join in their cheering. The non-Moslems(read Hindus) should respect Muslims who slap them and abuse their religion. Wah, kya kahne. Is this the result of slavish mentality your upbringing has engendered in you. A man without a modicum of self-respect is worse than animals. Thank God, there are more self-respecting Hindus than you would ever think. The Indian nationalism and civilization has survived and flourished for 5000 years by its own innate strength and will continue to do so in future. We dont need your advice, Sir.

re: Amit

{{ My point is that Islam is an extremely powerful faith, whose impact is really profound on people. It is an entire way of life and it influences people to a degree that cannot be imagined in other religions. I think non-muslims need to understand it and not get offended by it; rahter they should respect it as a unique attribute of Islam. }}

it is not that easy...Islam has an in-your-face quality, which inevitably offends non-Muslims...of course there are individual Muslims who are exceptions, but the religion as a whole is different...Islam is a complete way of life, with a very large public aspect...non-Muslim countries can never provide that public aspect to Muslims...therein lies the source of much friction...